Pastor challenges IRS regulations on endorsements (with info on how to complain)

[brooklynite]

Source: Atlanta Journal-Constitution

The Rev. Jody Hice fired a verbal volley Sunday in a battle that he believes will return the United States to its American Revolutionary roots.

From his pulpit at Bethlehem First Baptist Church outside of Atlanta, he urged his congregation to vote for Sen. John McCain and to not vote for Sen. Barack Obama.

He based his recommendations on McCain’s opposition to abortion and gay marriage and Obama’s support of those issues, Hice told the Barrow County church packed with about 400 listeners.

...snip...

Hice’s endorsement and argument is part of a coordinated effort by the Alliance Defense Fund, a conservative Christian legal aid society. Its members hope the IRS will challenge one or more of the 33 pastors across the United States who did what Hice did Sunday. They hope to overturn the no-endorsement regulation in court.

Read more: http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/2008/09/28/pastors_IRS_regulations.html

---

IRS Complaint Process For Tax Exempt Organizations

The Internal Revenue Service gives serious consideration to complaints made alleging the abuse of the tax exempt status granted to certain organizations.

When reviewing filed complaints, the IRS carefully follows special procedures designed to assure the public of the IRS’s objectivity in the treatment of tax-exempt organizations. These procedures ensure that the IRS operates in an unbiased and appropriate manner and that its compliance programs are not improperly influenced by outside intervention.

The responsibility for administering these procedures belongs to the Exempt Organizations (EO) function, which is part of the IRS’s Tax Exempt and Government Entities Operating Division.

Complaints (Referrals)

A complaint (also called a referral) is any communication alleging that a tax-exempt organization is in potential noncompliance with the tax law. EO receives complaints from the general public, members of Congress, federal and state government agencies, as well as from other parts of the IRS.

Filing a Complaint

A referral of an exempt organization may be made by submitting Form 13909, Tax-Exempt Organization Complaint (Referral) Form, downloadable from IRS.gov.

Form 13909 and any supporting documentation may be submitted in a variety of ways. They can be sent via:

Mail to IRS EO Classification, Mail Code 4910DAL, 1100 Commerce St., Dallas, TX 75242-1198,
Fax to 214-413-5415, or
Email to [e-mail].
Submission of Form 13909 is voluntary.

If a Pastor in your area joined this stunt, I'd get the paperwork started today.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

1. Shows what that idiot knows.

Obama does not support gay marriages, but rather civil unions.
Duckie

[DBoon]

2. There is also state tax exemption

Nonprofits in California may also be exempt from property tax.

This should be investigated as well

Churches may have little income, but in this state their property is very valuable.

Note the following:

State Property Tax (Board of Equalization)

Real and personal property owned and operated by certain nonprofit organizations can be exempted from local property taxation through a program jointly administered by the Board of Equalization and county assessors' offices in California. This exemption, known as the Welfare Exemption, is available to qualifying organizations that have income- tax- exempt status under Internal Revenue Code section 501(c)(3) or 23701(d) of the Revenue and Taxation Code and are organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific or hospital purposes.

For more information on the Welfare Exemption, please view the Board's website at Welfare and Veterans' Organization Exemptions, or refer to Publication 48, Property Tax Exemptions for Religious Organizations, and Assessors' Handbook Section 267, Welfare, Church and Religious Exemptions. Individual copies may be ordered by downloading the Publications Order and Purchase Order for Assessors' Handbook Sections.

[Wizard777]

4. The first amendment trumps state law. They can't enact Tax Laws for churches either.

[Pete2069]

9. NOW WE HAVE LAWS!! SINCE WHEN...

Bush said that our constitution is nothing but a G.D. piece of
paper...**(being a Christian taken the name of the Lord the
GOD in vain) and he could do anything he pleased and has...

[Wizard777]

15. Good point

Btw, It's only taking the Lords name in vain if you actually expect God to damn something on your say so. Like He's your servant. These days it's used an idiom. Which isn't really a sin. But it does show greater respect for Him not to use such Idioms.

[DBoon]

16. They have had this law for decades

I allows certain organizations to be tax exempt if they meet certain criteria.

If they fail to meet that criteria (e.g., by active involvement in a political campaign) they may lose their tax exemption.

You may have the right to free speech, but you don't have a right not to pay taxes

[Wizard777]

23. The church does have that right to not pay taxes. Taxes are enacted by law.

So this is like the government putting conditions on them respecting the churches constitutional right. That's like a prosecutor telling someone they will respect their fifth amendment right if they plead guilty. Otherwise they will be forced to testify against themselves.

[Zhade]

32. No, they do NOT have the right not to pay taxes. Where do you get this shit?

NT!

[Wizard777]

42. First amendment. What would make you think they are obligated to pay taxes?

Establishment in the legal sense can also refer to the order of their affairs. That would include financial. It also violates the other sense of establishment. As in you are a real church and you are not a real church. It forms a government endorsement of official and unofficial religions. If the government respects your establishment of religion. You get a tax exempt status as the governments official seal of approval on that religion. The first amendment does not restrict government in the area of religion. That's an under statement. It hog ties them.

[davsand]

51. Actually, it depends on the type of taxes and the laws that create them.

Here in Illinois the state constitution is very strictly construed against EXEMPTION from taxation. Our property tax laws are an entity unto themselves that has very little recognition of the IRS 501(C)3 laws (the ones that, essentially, create that IRS exemption that most churches are organized under.

Here in Illinois the exemption from Property and Sales tax is rooted in both use AND ownership of a property. (By way of example, if a church allows a McDonald's to open in the Fellowship Hall that space will be subject to taxation.) Simply CLAIMING to be a religious institution is not enough to guarantee exemption from taxation, and simply saying you are doing charitable acts is NOT enough to render you exempt from taxation in this state.

We have a local case that has been appealed to the Illinois Supreme Court (we do not know if they will agree to hear it--and will not know for a few months) that hinges on these subjects. A local Catholic Hospital lost property tax exemption due to several factors, including aggressive collections activities for uninsured patients, failure to provide much charity at all, and billing uninsured people a lot more than people with insurance. Right now, as it stands, the appeals court has rendered them NOT tax exempt:

http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinions/AppellateCourt/2008/4thDistrict/August/4070763.pdf




Laura

[ehrnst]

27. Dupe - sorry! (nt)

[ehrnst]

28. Dupe - sorry! (nt)

[ehrnst]

29. dupe, sorry.... (nt)

[ehrnst]

30. Good point - Render Unto Caesar what is Caesar's.... (nt)

[Wizard777]

43. Only if you're a Christian. That proverb is not in my bible and many others.

[ehrnst]

52. Exactly - I believe all of the churches involved are Christian. (nt)

[Collared Cougar]

18. First Amendment vs Law

Actually, the Church has a right to free speech. The tax exempt law says that for the privilege of being tax exempt that a Church would have to give up part of their free speech right. Churches do not have a "right" of tax exemption.

[Wizard777]

24. Yes they do. Taxes are enacted by law.

In the separation of church and state. The constitution places the onus upon the government to remain separate from the church. But the church may participate in government. As a Priest I can vote and run for office. I do not have to resign my position in my church before assuming office if I win.

[Zhade]

33. But you may NOT base decisions as an elected official on your beliefs.

At least, not vocally - that would count as an endorsement of religion, which is illegal.

[Wizard777]

44. In my position I cannot subjugate my beliefs or knowledge. But as an American also.

That is why I would never run for office.

[Zhade]

53. Good - because if you did, you'd break the law, and we'd sue you for violating the Constitution.

You DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT to use a political office to endorse religion!

[Wizard777]

56. I would be protected from your suit by Sovereign Immunity.

You could have the law overturned by SCOTUS. But you couldn't sue me for passing it. You also couldn't use my position in the church to prevent me from voting on abortion and other secular issues that churches also have interests in. But I do agree that no one has the right use political office to endorse religion.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

36. As a private citizen, you have the right to participate...

But as the legal represenative of a tax-exempt organization, you are strictly prohibited from participating in partisan politics. You cannot use your church as a tool to promote a political agenda.

[Wizard777]

45. SCOTUS has yet to rule on that. The first amendment places the onus upon government

to remain seperate from the church. The only declarations and decrees that are binding upon my church are mine or my successors.

[Zhade]

54. Wrong, wrong, WRONG. The establishment clause forbids church involvement in politics as well.

Note that I said "church" and not "churchgoer" - any believer who understands and accepts the fact that we are a SECULAR government is allowed to participate in government. You are disallowed, however, from using any office to endorse or push religion.

[Wizard777]

57. You are wrong the Constitution places the onus upon government to remain seperate.

Think of it as a marriage. It only takes one party to say no to the union. The Constitution say that party is the government.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

35. The first Amendment has nothing to do with it...

The law is in respect to non-profit, charitable organizations -- that includes the American Cancer Society, the local homeless shelter, and the church down the street.

ALL THREE are prohibited from direct participation in partisan politics.

[Wizard777]

46. You can't pigeon hole us like that. All churches are for prophet.

:rofl:

[Gormy Cuss]

50. That was really bad.

:spank: . Too punny. :silly:

[Wizard777]

3. What part of make NO law have they failed to understand? Including TAX LAW.

You can't tell your congregation this candidate has all the moral of a demon without losing your tax exempt status. Any church dealing with the White House interfaith office should also lose their tax exempt status. I would rather see Churches endorsing candidates before an election. Then taking interfaith office pay offs from them after an election. The churchs tax exempt status comes the first amendment and the IRS cannot revoke a Constitutional right.

[Doodler71]

25. Courts have sided with the IRS previously

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE1D81739F932A35757C0A96F958260

[Wizard777]

47. Federal courts will uphold federal law. SCOTUS is where you challenge the validity of the law.

To the best of my knowledge that has never been done.

[jberryhill]

26. The point is to challenge the law deliberately

They understand the current interpretation of the law. They are doing this for the purpose of getting the issue into court.

If they win, I'm starting a bunch of churches in my town:

The Buddhist Same Day Dry Cleaning Temple.

Our Lady of Drive Through Burgers.

The Five and Dime Tabernacle.

You are simply failing to see the opportunity here.

"Temple Rosh Reuben - Our Veal Is Heavenly!"

[Realityhack]

40. Actually the other poster is correct.

The tax exempt status can be challenged and the courts have sided with the IRS.
The issue being that the same laws apply to all religious organizations.

I doubt this will be overturned (though with the current SC it is possible).

[Wizard777]

48. If properly present to SCOTUS. It would be overtuned.

It forms an official government endorsement of a church and it's religion. The fact that it applies to all religions simple means that it's not a bill of atainder. I wouldn't challenge on those grounds. I would challenge on the first amendmendment as respecting an establishment of religion.

[Realityhack]

49. I am not sure. The thing is...

You can't just have McDonalds call itself a religion and not be taxed.
The tax exempt status is something that applies outside of just churches to an umbrella of charitable organizations. As long as the same rules apply universally I do not think it will be an establishment issue.

[Wizard777]

58. Short and simple there are several senses of the word establishment.

I believe the word was used in all senses. Such as it's founding and the order of it's affairs. The universal application would only prevent it from being declared a bill of atainder. You can't cover up the shall make no law provision with a blanket law. As far as Mc Donalds goes. You also cannot prevent them from organizing as a church to reduce or eliminate their tax burden. That goes against rulings on tax law. Judge Learned M. Hand ruled that business owners have an obligation to arrange their affairs to pay the least amount of taxes possible. His decission is still used to define the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion. Tax avoidance is extremely legal. The government can't tell a business they have sell a product instead of giving it away. Because giving it away deprives them of sales tax. The business is avoiding the sales tax by giving the product away and that's legal. But if the business sells the product without collecting and pay the sales tax. That's tax evasion and that's illegal.

[Brazenly Liberal]

5. I don't understand why churches get that tax break, anyway.

They should have to pay like any other business.

Thanks for printing that! I will make a complaint, though I wonder if the IRS will take seriously complaints from people who weren't there and didn't witness it.

[bad_robbie]

12. You don't necessarily have to have been there

Many churches publish their sermons, or at least a title or summary. Also, many will have audio and/or video of their services on their websites.

[Doctor_J]

6. Time to take churches off of the tax-exempt list

if they want to get involved in politics, no problem - just pay taxes like any other political advocacy group

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

38. No. Just those that won't obey the law.

The overwhelming majority of churches may be politically active (registering voters and encouraging participation in the process) but they are not partisans acting on behalf of a candidate, campaign or political party. I have no problem with non-partisan political activity (glad to see it, actually), but partisan political activity should bring down the wrath of God (so to speak) on those who violate the law.

[Democrats_win]

7. Why doesn't church endorse Jesus Christ? He is the only person a xstian church should endorse.

[brooklynite]

8. In Pennsylvania yesterday (working for Obama) I saw a "Jesus Christ '08" poster

[struggle4progress]

13. Christ for President (Woody Guthrie)

... Every year we waste enough
To feed the ones who starve
We build our civilization up
And we shoot it down with wars

But with the Carpenter on the seat
Way up in the Capital town
The USA would be on the way
Prosperity Bound!

http://www.woodyguthrie.org/Lyrics/Christ_for_President.htm

if any churches actually have this one in the hymnal, I'm unaware of it

[Nevernose]

10. His "flock" must be the kind who ask "What can Jesus do for me?"

His "flock" must be the kind who ask "What can Jesus do for me?" instead of the kind who say "What should I do for Jesus?" The kind who rarely read whole chapters of the Bible, only snippets presented in church, and in both cases these folks tend to see what they can get out of their religion instead of what they should be putting in. Of course, that's why they're Republicans. It's like that whole financial craze that's swept the megachurches in recent years, the ones where the preacher tells people that if they love Jesus enough, Jesus will make them rich.

Of course this guy doesn't understand the constitution or the law: he doesn't understand the Bible, either.

[Bryn]

11. Thank You!

I bookmarked your post.

When will politicans STOP using christianity/bible to prey on gullible jeeebuz freaks for votes? They should act like real leaders and worry about issues to do for the good for country and the people/the world. Keep their head/nose out of women's wombs, out of bedrooms, out of personal relationships (gay/hetro) which is really NONE OF THEIR DAMN god-BUSINESS. I am sick and tired of them using "pro-life" just to set off those crazies to vote for them. Lots of so called "pro-life" politicans are serial animal killers. If they have no respect for Nature/Environment/Animals/Health Care HOW CAN THEY CALL THEMSELVES "Pro-Life"? Huh

[santamargarita]

14. I hate these Goddamn Christian Fascists!

UGH!

[crossroads]

41. Correction...

Counterfeit Christian Fascists!

CR

[DBoon]

17. Lets start the Church of Obama for President

The sole purpose of this church is to ensure that Barak Obama becomes president, as was foretold by the Old Testament prophets.

All contributions will then be tax exempt.

We can then finance a political campaign with tax exempt dollars. Sweet!

In some states, church property would be exempt from property taxes. Double sweet!

(I think L. Ron Hubbard had a similar idea long ago...)

[Loudmxr]

19. Its not the church the IRS will go after but the business the church runs.

The church had a choice of making its business arm a 501c3. That comes with restrictions. It could be a 501c4 like the League of Women Voters and endorse all the candidates it wants.

Both are non-profits its just the first is a "charitable" organization and the second a "social" org. And therefore have different tax status. :smoke:

[Loudmxr]

20. Its not the church the IRS will go after but the business the church runs.

The church had a choice of making its business arm a 501c3. That comes with restrictions. It could be a 501c4 like the League of Women Voters and endorse all the candidates it wants.

Both are non-profits its just the first is a "charitable" organization and the second a "social" org. And therefore have different tax status. :smoke:

[Loudmxr]

21. Its not the church the IRS will go after but the business the church runs.

The church had a choice of making its business arm a 501c3. That comes with restrictions. It could be a 501c4 like the League of Women Voters and endorse all the candidates it wants.

Both are non-profits its just the first is a "charitable" organization and the second a "social" org. And therefore have different tax status. :smoke:

[Loudmxr]

22. Its not the church the IRS will go after but the business the church runs.

The church had a choice of making its business arm a 501c3. That comes with restrictions. It could be a 501c4 like the League of Women Voters and endorse all the candidates it wants.

Both are non-profits its just the first is a "charitable" organization and the second a "social" org. And therefore have different tax status. :smoke:

[foxfeet]

31. The Alliance Defense Fund and all participants should be charged with conspiracy.

Get 'em. Then tax 'em.

[VeggieTart]

34. There's a similar article in The Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/28/AR2008092802365.html

I wrote an angry letter pointing out that I don't see clergymen suggesting that John McCain isn't right with the ol' JC because McCain doesn't seem to care about the poor, the sick, the less fortunate. And I think JC would be highly pissed off to see how McCain and Palin advocate fucking up the planet the alleged big guy upstairs gave us and treating his/her creatures appallingly.

If it gets published, I'll have to post it here.

[mitchum]

37. Contact info for the grifters at Bethlehem First Baptist Church...

Give 'em a call and say hi!


Senior Pastor:
Dr. Jody Hice
Office: 770-867-3577
[e-mail]

Associate Pastor:
Pastor Mike Peavy
Office: 770-307-1584
[e-mail]


Pastor to Students:
Pastor Wright Humble
Office: 770-307-4089
[e-mail]

Worship Pastor:
Pastor Joel Goddard
Office: 770-307-1585
[e-mail]

Bethlehem Christian Academy

Adminstrator :
Rhonda Whiting
Office: 770-307-1574

[e-mail]

Administrative Assistant /

Financial Secretary:
Yvette Mattox
Office: 770-867-3577
[e-mail]

Children's Ministry Director /

BFBC Receptionist:
Judy Miller
Office: 770-867-3577

[SomeGuyInEagan]

55. Seriously ... the Pastor to Students is named "Wright Humble"

http://www.bethlehemfbc.org/humble.php

:wtf:

[jmowreader]

39. I think it's really cool that they're doing this...

after all, the tax revenue that will be generated after the IRS lifts all these churches' tax exemptions for playing Republican politics should pay for the entire bailout.