(Tony) Blair: Pope is wrong about gays – and most Catholics think so too

[IndianaGreen]

Source: The Independent (UK)

Blair: Pope is wrong about gays – and most Catholics think so too

Former prime minister condemns Vatican's 'entrenched' attitudes – and proposes New Labour-style makeover

By Jerome Taylor, Religious Affairs Correspondent

Wednesday, 8 April 2009

The Pope and the Vatican have an "entrenched attitude" towards homosexuality which is less tolerant than the views of ordinary Catholics, Tony Blair says in comments published today.

The former prime minister, who converted to Catholicism shortly after leaving office two years ago, said he disagreed with the Pope's stance on gay rights and controversially suggested that the Church should reform itself along similar lines to how he re-organised the Labour Party.

"Organised religions face the same dilemma as political parties when faced with changed circumstances," he said.

"You can either A: Hold on to your core vote, basically, you know, say 'Look let's not break out because if we break out we might lose what we've got, and at least we've got what we've got so let's keep it'. Or B: You say 'let's accept that the world is changing, and let us work out how we can lead that change and actually reach out'."

The comments from Mr Blair will cause controversy in the Vatican which still officially insists that gays are "intrinsically disordered" and that homosexual sex is a sin.

Last year, Pope Benedict XVI caused widespread outrage in the gay community when he compared toleration of gays to the destruction of the rainforests and said that homosexuality is "a more or less strong tendency ordered towards an intrinsic moral evil".

Read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/blair-pope-is-wrong-about-gays-ndash-and-most-catholics-think-so-too-1665363.html

---

I am sure the German Pope is going to listen to an Englishman. Tony should have stayed with Church of England.

[Dramarama]

1. +1 for Tony

[angstlessk]

2. damn...barely a catholic and he is questioning the pope...maybe he will suggest England have their

own religion...OOPS! THEY DO!

[Raster]

3. As Pope Ratzi goosesteps up to the altar...

[hedgehog]

4. Boy, let me get this out of the way first:" the Catholic Church is not a

democracy".

Yeah, yeah, but there is such a thing as the sense of the faithful. When most of the people in the Church think one way and the bishops think another, it's time for the bishops to examine their motives. Are they more interested in holding onto the illusion of control or in doing what is right?

[MADem]

5. Poor Tony...no one told him that he can't question His Holiness, I guess.

Old Bennie is pretty immutable on that particular issue.

Tone may be gettin' his excom letter any day now!

[IndianaGreen]

6. As a member of Hitler Youth, this Pope probably fired his anti-aircraft gun at British planes

during WWII.

What's next, Tony? Women priests? You should have stayed with the Anglican Church.

[teachthemwell15]

19. Agree! nt

[roughsatori]

7. The Pope is infallible & His words are Divinely inspired and directed by God. NT

[ShortnFiery]

9. No, only in rare instances can the Pope declare infallibility. Perhaps some other

Catholic who is better versed than I can elaborate? However, I have been taught that the Pope is "human" and not everything he says is infallible. :shrug:

[roughsatori]

14. The Holy Ghost prevents even the possibility of thinking erroneously

regarding Scripture, Magisterium, and Tradition. God instructs us through Church, via the Catechism, that the Pope holds the "Keys" to the Church in an unbroken lineage created by Christ when he anointed Saint Peter as guardian of the Church. The lineage has been unbroken from Peter up to Pope Benedict XVI. The Church agrees that Popes are human. They are humans Divinely inspired by God, even in thought, charged with leading the bodies of Catholics on earth so as to reach Heaven after a final Judgement.

[IndianaGreen]

15. Jesus: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 14:6

There is nothing in the above passage about a Papacy, Church, Catechism, Peter, etc. Looks to me that there are no scriptural basis for the Papacy, much less Papal Infallibility.

And the Talmud certainly doesn't mention a future divine plan to establish a separate faith. One would have thought that we would have been forewarned.

[roughsatori]

22. Of course you are correct. But I did not write that there was a scriptural basis

for the Papacy. Nor did I express that I found the Catechism to be accurate or followed. My sense of humor is extrodinarily dry (some might say non-existent), that got in the way. I thought that just stating the Catholic Church's position on the subject to be funny.

I have NEVER been able to make a joke. In person I do tell stories that make people laugh very loudly. Sorry, in the future, I'll leave joke making to the funny. I wish I had the skill. :blush:

[IndianaGreen]

23. I think we need to get together for a few beers!

Some people here take the Papacy very seriously.

:-)

[roughsatori]

26. Beer and Theology make for good-times

with the right people. Sounds like a great idea. I'm glad you got back to this thread to read my clarification. I've always respected you and make a point to read your posts. The thought that you would think me an obsessed Papist was disturbing. I did just have quite a bit of wine, it's my sister's B-day: Wine, Rum, and Gingerbread cake.

[tomreedtoon]

27. Beer + theology = A country bar fight.

I've seen evidence every weekend. Lousy form for discussing religion. Alcohol makes people really, really crazy.

To bring this back to the subject - and to avoid wasting another post - let me say that a lot of Catholics are voting with their feet. The only reason I attended Mass for the last twenty years was that I was visiting my mother for a week, and I wanted to save my sister and her husband the drudgery of taking her. (Or letting her watch the TV Mass at high volume and waking them up.) She died last year, and all of us children are free now.

I'm not a "lapsed" Catholic, with the assumption that I will come back before I die. I'm more like a "collapsed" Catholic, whose belief in the Church as an institution of good has been crushed under the avalanche of bad politics, birth control hypocrisy, support of spouse abuse and pedophilia. An institution doing this much bad cannot be infallible, or promoting what I see as God's desires.

[roughsatori]

28. I attend Mass. But only because my Mom won't go alone.

Her and my Dad went together. After 58 years of marraige, he died 3 years ago. She won't go by herself. I ask her and take her to come with me to Mass - it cheers her up, even if she has to tolerate my "blasphemy" on the way home. I live in a rural area, so I've seen my share of country bar fights. I stick to the theology (not religion) and beer with people who like both. I have to fight and tend to be obnoxious or depressed if I drink too much in public.

[Fumesucker]

33. I disagree...

I thought your post was hilarious..

But then my sense of humor rambles pretty far off the beaten path too.

[willing dwarf]

37. The sinfulness of the Church is acklnowledged by the Church

In our Roman Catholic Church we often include a prayer for the reform of the sinfulness of the Church and its leaders in the Prayers of the Faithful -- so I think there is room in the Church to acknowledge its shortsightedness and sinfulness.

[IndianaGreen]

12. Like when the Pope excommunicated Galileo for saying the Earth revolved around the Sun

If that's an example of Divine inspiration, then GAWD is either a fraking liar or the Papacy is a fraud.

[roughsatori]

17. I think your thoughts regarding the office of the Papacy are

correct. I don't believe in God. I did get a wonderful Catholic School education - even with the detours into bizzaro world voodoo. I am familiar with Catholic Theology. A friend of mine has a Doctorate in Theology and is a Catholic Priest - he used to be a member of the Vatican counsel. We discussed Catholic Dogma in relation to Hegel, Freud, and Lacan. I don't think he was a lot like other priests. He never tried to convert me - I never tried to make him see that there is no God.

When I posted above - I did not mention my own atheism as I thought the absurdity of the Churches teaching on the subject to be obvious just in the recounting. O8)

[IndianaGreen]

21. You clever rascal, you!

Well, although I delight in blasting patriarchal religions and the darker components of their ancient theology, I am not an atheist. I agree with Lenin that religion is, and must remain a private affair.

[roughsatori]

24. I will confess...

I love Theology. If pressed I would say the I am a non-theist Buddhist. But, as I am not a joiner, I never took my formal vows. Three days before the service I realized that I would feel like a phony if I went through with it. Being true to myself is important for me to stay sane.

I am drawn to thinkers who have a strong belief in God. Throughout history the yearning to know, and connect with, "The God" has spurred the most vigorous, the most sublime poetry and art. Even in the field of experimental aesthetics the artists' spiritual fight has heightened and driven many to more perplexing, yet uniquely satisfying, art.

A favorite French poet Arthur Rimbaud wrote his masterpiece "Une Saison Enfer" (A Season in Hell) about the struggle. There is a wonderful anecdote involving Rimbaud. When he was 12 he was banned from the town Church. He had written in large letters directly outside the church doors: "GOD IS SHIT."

Rimbaud beat Foucault by many years. And John Lydon(AKA Rotten) was imitating the original punk. I wish it were legal for me to marry Arthur. :-)

[ShortnFiery]

35. I caught on right away because the new term for is "Holy SPIRIT" not "Holy GHOST."

I'm a convert from 1996. Other than attending R.C.I.A. I have not studied the faith in depth. However, I recall that in the 1960s there were some very thoughtful and positive steps to help bring Catholicism to the mainstream. Called "Vatican Counsel" or something?

Any woo, it seems that even since the Supreme Court gave GW Bush the Presidency in 2000, the Catholic faith has been completely hijacked by right wingers.

Instead of "Catholicism WOW" with a warm Buddy Jesus, we're THREATENED with "Catholicism Whoa!" with a vengeful USA God. :(

[Mari333]

40. thats what my mom says

I smile and roll my eyes.

[Zynx]

41. Infallibility has to be specifically declared. It is not just a given.

There is a specific procedure the Pope has to go through in order to declare infallibility.

[burning rain]

8. Hilarious. So glad you posted this.

Tony Blur vs. the absolutists. Bizarro.

[sandnsea]

10. And most Catholic women take the pill

and support abortion at least for 9 year olds who are raped, etc etc.

Why'd he become a Catholic if he disagreed with the core principles of the Church? How weird.

[IndianaGreen]

13. His wife is Catholic, as are his sons

Why not join a church that has been consistently wrong for two millennia?

[No Elephants]

42. Haven't his wife and sons been Catholic a lot longer than 2 years? Not a reason to

become a Catholic anyway. You become a Catholic because you believe in what the Church says, including the infallibility of the Pope. (I don't and I'm not.)

[JI7]

11. did Blair get tired of being a poodle

good to see him finally speak up for what is right.

[rpannier]

16. I disagree with the Pope and with bLIAR

The Pope and the Church are wrong about homosexuals

That being said, the Catholic Church is growing fastest in Africa and has grown in many parts of Asia.
Most of these people converting would agree with the Church's position on homosexuality

[Jefferson23]

18. Uh oh, they will make you sorry Tony for saying that, but good on you!

[EFerrari]

20. Tony Blair finally did something I can agree with.

Good for him.

[Amonester]

25. Is bLiar finally getting a clue??

bLiar "caused widespread outrage" for the majority of the world against the illegal war in Iraq.

Better late than never? (He still is a war criminal, though. A million victims, and counting.) :cry:

[denem]

29. Blairs "New Catholics" - blessed are the warmongers,

theirs is the kingdom of oil? The Kingdom of Heaven is close at hand like a cruise missile?

[elleng]

30. From what I understand,

Catholicism is not democratic. Who CARES what (Tony) Blair (or newt) think?

[LeftishBrit]

31. This must be the first time I've said this since 1997; but good for Blair!

[Nihil]

32. Can't agree with you on that.

He isn't being "good" or "reasonable" or any of the other sycophantic
crap mentioned upthread, he is just being his usual publicity-whoring
self as his headline count is getting a bit low these days.

Expect a spokesman/publicist to "clarify" his meaning later so that,
headlines obtained, he can grovel back to the Vatican and plead that
it was all a misunderstanding blown out of proportion by the media.

He is such a hypocritical shithouse - born with his mouth holding
both a silver spoon and a silver tongue.
:mad:

[Kolesar]

34. Pope JP2: Tony Blair is wrong about Iraq - but I won't expend a lot of effort convincing the laity..

...even though I read the newspapers and can see through the neocon bullshit. 8 March 2003

[ShortnFiery]

36. Many of us do miss Pope John Paul :( nt.

[Kolesar]

39. He was ascendent during my time of antiestablishment zeal

I had just rejected an Eastern Rite Catholicism. This was in an era of youth culture torment. My family had just dealt with draft notices, nuclear-era nihilism, and I was entering a period of scant opportunity in a ruined rust belt community. It was hard not to be cynical. Three decades later, it is hard to recall what John Paul had accomplished. I wasn't looking. In this century, I will gratefully acknowledge that the Church carries a message of peace.

[Turbineguy]

38. The Pope needs to party with these guys;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYSAyPNR7qg