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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:28 PM
Original message
Obama looks at climate engineering
Source: Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP) — The president's new science adviser said Wednesday that global warming is so dire, the Obama administration is discussing radical technologies to cool Earth's air.

John Holdren told The Associated Press in his first interview since being confirmed last month that the idea of geoengineering the climate is being discussed. One such extreme option includes shooting pollution particles into the upper atmosphere to reflect the sun's rays. Holdren said such an experimental measure would only be used as a last resort.

<snip>

Holdren outlined several "tipping points" involving global warming that could be fast approaching. Once such milestones are reached, such as complete loss of summer sea ice in the Arctic, it increases chances of "really intolerable consequences," he said.

Twice in a half-hour interview, Holdren compared global warming to being "in a car with bad brakes driving toward a cliff in the fog."

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hm1kMpA2nQALOfQL8Y8PxxTHNVtgD97ECHLG1



:scared:

The problem, the possible solution, everything.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. I, for one, am looking forward to terra-forming the earth.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Beats the Venusiforming we seem to be doing lately (nt)
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. WHITE ROOFS. It is a small thing, a silly thing, a simple thing.
They reflect the sun's rays too, much like snow.

The person who comes up with a pale macadam might make a fortune, too.

If enough people do a small thing, it becomes a big thing.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Think globally, act locally.
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kimmerspixelated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
42. I say...
Brilliant!
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. Two things:
1. "Could be" are key words.

2. Anyone who claims they are an environmentalist can ditch their gas guzzling SUVs, private jets, giant mansions to keep fully heated/cooled, and so on. Hollywood folks and some politicians, this means you. :*

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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
20. But also paint the roof white.
A little bit more can always help.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. This reminds me of Luke and Laura...
And the search for the one-armed boy.

Anyone? Anyone?
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
28. Of course! The Ice Princess!
Too many hours of GH in college...too many skipped classes...

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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-09-09 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Haha!
I wondered if anyone would get the reference!

:hi:

GH got me through a rough final trimester of my first pregnancy... I'll always associate my oldest with Luke and Laura... oh no!
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. omigod we're going to make it so no plants can grow. I don't like this dangerous kind of meddling.
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Baclava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. We can huddle around the volcanos on snowball Earth
These things never go as planned.



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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. This is ridiculous
Current understanding of the linkages and teleconnections in the ocean/atmosphere system is so primitive that the best theoretical models can't even "predict" the past, when fed historical data. Fundamentally, it shows a grade-school belief in causative chains. Complex nonlinear systems do not work in causative chains. By definition, end states cannot be predicted from initial conditions in these systems. You might as well try to calculate the closing price of the NYSE on the summer solstice - another complex, nonlinear system.

The Law of Unintended Consequences will get a thorough demonstration should this risible effort continue.

What's next, resume the Soviet practice of reversing the course of rivers? How about stick to ironing out the economy?

This isn't an Obama diss, it's a human-hubris diss.
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darkstar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Given the complexities you outlined above,
Edited on Wed Apr-08-09 03:14 PM by darkstar
i.e non-linear causation, how might might we ascertain that the meddling had triggered anything, broad or narrow?

Edited to add: Not a challenge to your position. It's just that the issue of causation is at the heart of the debate from the git-go and I find it interesting.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. "Global dimming" studies
Check out the video below in post #8, if you haven't seen it already. I think you'll find it very interesting...
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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Indeed. As if we could be holistic enough in our knowledge to play God.
Edited on Wed Apr-08-09 04:01 PM by Dover
I have a healthy respect for science, but it's important we recognize our limitations and
learn to live in harmony with nature rather than attempt to manipulate her. Particularly on the scale we are talking about although even apparently minor missteps can become of major significance in their ultimate effects.
I think there has already been quite a bit of 'engineering' of weather and other things
going on. And we know they have been working on climate changes to Mars, so who's to say they
haven't been applying it to Earth? And if so, who knows, maybe it has also played a role in creating this mess.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. So we shouldn't limit CO2 emissions?
Hey, maybe if we all stick our heads in the sand, the world will feel cooler to us -- until we drown or bake.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
24. Boy do I hear you.
Main stream TB reports that have scientists admit that we are already doing the chem trailing - and what are the consequences?

Aluminum particles and other nasties will cause more problems than they solve.
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #24
37. Thank you, truedelphi.
I am encouraged to see you and a couple of other posters in this thread who are daring to speak of The Trails. Something has been going on right out in plane sight since at least 1999, and now the government considers injecting pollution particles into the upper atmosphere.

Maybe it's just getting too widespread to "hide" anymore.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. You are welcome. But I wonder why they won't just say - "Hey there
Edited on Fri Apr-10-09 06:39 PM by truedelphi
American public - we have been doing this for some time."

After all, there are lawsuits in the German courts right now, due to the diligence of environmentalists, and those lawsuits will out the fact that this entire Chemtrail, upper atmosphere emmission's program has been going on for some time.

So wouldn't it make more sense to admit it has been going on for quite a while, than to pretend that they are about to start the program?
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. Erm... we're already "reflecting the sun's rays" on a huge scale and have been for quite a while
Edited on Wed Apr-08-09 01:58 PM by Turborama
Maybe Obama and his team should take 50 minutes out of their busy schedule to watch this before they go any further down that road...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x271149



On edit. Damn, it's been archived and can't be bumped. Does anyone know how/when the removal of the reply function happens? I've never been able to figure that one out...
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
9. Did Karl Rove...
...loan Obama his weather machine?

Maybe there is hope for the human race.

Okaaaay...maybe not.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
10. When are we going to learn? We have to work WITH nature to survive
we can't control it. Destroy it, yes, but control it, no.
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. exactly what the motherf%%^%$ers wanted by delaying
action on global warming- forcing us into expensive centralized 'solutions' usually presented by technocrats with no fucking clue of the complexities of nature.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
13. If they are considering this, they need a reversible (sp?) solution
I'm thinking of something like a solar shade- something they can take away if there are adverse effects.

I'm unaware of any way to remove "pollution particles" once they're in the atmosphere.

Perhaps we should also look at nanogobblers that separate carbon from oxygen in the atmosphere while we're at it :sarcasm:
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Why, we'll vacuum the dust out of the atmosphere, of course!


:D
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
40. And what, pray tell, happens when she goes from suck to blow?
:D
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
18. Good. We might not want to think about last resort options but it's necessary.
If some think it's "playing God" too F-ing bad.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. We've been playing Satan long enough.
We may be forced into emulating a deity.
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highplainsdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
23. K & 5th R
Twice in a half-hour interview, Holdren compared global warming to being "in a car with bad brakes driving toward a cliff in the fog."


Exactly.
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Synicus Maximus Donating Member (828 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
25. What is the proper temperature of the earth?
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-09-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. That isn't really the correct question to ask
The Earth doesn't give a damn how hot or cold it gets; it's just a ball of water and rock floating in space. It would still exist and rotate if it were -300F or 1000F.

The most relevant question at this point is "What is the proper temperature of the Earth, for modern human life to flourish."

To that, I would answer: the temperature at which modern human civilization evolved. In other words, the temperature range of the past few hundred years would be probably be the most "proper", if we had to choose an optimum. It was during this time that farming on the scale necessary to support billions of people was implemented, and during this time that most multi-million person cities grew to their current size. Change the climate, and those areas may no longer be able to exist.

A few degrees of warming may improve living conditions for a few that settled outside of the optimal regions of the past few centuries, but it would outweighed by harm to the vast majority of people currently living in areas that would be flooded, baked or turned to dust bowls.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
26. Listened to a neat podcast on this a few weeks ago
A columnist I read moderately fanatically - his stuff's at http://gwynnedyer.com/ - did a three-part series for CBC radio on the security implications of climate change called "Climate Wars." He's hosting the podcasts on the site there - I think it's the "Ideas3" one, but I'd recommend any of them or anything else there. He seems to have spoken to about half the Pentagon and Obama administration about the issue.

If you've got an hour (or, for the whole thing, three) to spare, I'd suggest checking those out. He also has the full length interviews incorporated into it hosted there, but I haven't checked those out yet.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Thanks, I'll look into that.
:hi:
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arikara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
27. This obscuring of the sun and blue sky has been going on for several years
and anyone with eyes in their heads should be able to see it. Unfortunately, most people don't bother looking up and observing. And most of those that do think air traffic trailing lines of pollution which spreads out to turn the blue sky into a white sky is completely natural.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. "Burning fuel doesn't just produce the invisible greenhouse gases which cause global warming."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x271149">17 minutes into the stand alone torrent version & the last quarter of part 2 of the Youtube version - with some great graphics

NARRATOR: Ramanathan was certain of one thing, the big drop in sunlight reaching the ground had to be something to do with changes in the Earth's atmosphere. There was one obvious suspect.

PROF VEERABHADRAN RAMANATHAN: Almost everything we do to create energy causes pollution.

NARRATOR: Burning fuel doesn't just produce the invisible greenhouse gases which cause global warming. It also produces visible pollution, tiny airborne particles of soot and other pollutants. These produce the haze which shrouds our cities. So Ramanathan wondered: Could this pollution be causing Global Dimming? The Maldives were the perfect place to find out. The Maldives seem unpolluted, but in fact the northern islands sit in a stream of dirty air descending from India. Only the southern tip of the long island chain enjoys clean air coming all the way from Antarctica. So by comparing the northern islands with the southern ones, Ramanathan and his colleagues would be able to see exactly what difference the pollution made to the atmosphere and the sunlight. Project INDOEX, as it was called, was a huge multinational effort. For four years every possible technique was used to sample and monitor the atmosphere over the Maldives. INDOEX cost twenty-five million dollars, but it produced results - and they surprised everyone.

PROF VEERABHADRAN RAMANATHAN: The stunning part of the experiment was this pollutant layer which was three kilometre thick, cut down the sunlight reaching the ocean by more than 10%.

NARRATOR: A 10% fall in sunlight meant that particle pollution was having a far bigger effect than anyone had thought possible.

PROF VEERABHADRAN RAMANATHAN: Our models led us to believe the human impact on the dimming was close to half to one per cent. So what we discovered was tenfold.

NARRATOR: INDOEX showed that the pollution particles were blocking some sunlight themselves; but far more significant was what they were doing to the clouds. They were turning them into giant mirrors. Clouds are made of droplets of water. These only form when water vapour in the atmosphere starts to condense on the surface of naturally occurring airborne particles, typically pollen or sea salt. As they grow, the water droplets eventually become so heavy they fall as rain. But Ramanathan found that polluted air contained far more particles than the unpolluted air, particles of ash, soot and sulphur dioxide.

PROF VEERABHADRAN RAMANATHAN: We saw ten times more particles in the polluted air mass north of the Maldives compared with what we saw south of the Maldives which was a pristine air mass.

NARRATOR: In the polluted air billions of man-made particles provided ten times as many sites around which water droplets could form. So polluted clouds contained many more water droplets, each one far smaller than it would be naturally. Many small droplets reflect more light than fewer big ones. So the polluted clouds were reflecting more light back into space, preventing the heat of the sun getting through. This was the cause of Global Dimming.

PROF VEERABHADRAN RAMANATHAN: Basically the Global Dimming we saw in the North Indian Ocean, it was contributed on the one hand by the particles themselves shielding the ocean from the sunlight, on the other hand making the clouds brighter. So this insidious soup, consisting of soot, sulphates, nitrates, ash and what have you, was having a double whammy on the Global Dimming.


"This is the real sting in the tail"

36 minutes 30 seconds into http://www.mininova.org/tor/635157">the torrent version

Or, 2nd half of part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37SAFkvz6uY
and all of part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyVOvRm45-I

DR DAVID TRAVIS: The nine eleven study showed that if you remove a contributor to Global Dimming, jet contrails, just for a three day period, we see an immediate response of the surface of temperature. Do the same thing globally we might see a large scale increase in global warming.

NARRATOR: This is the real sting in the tail. Solve the problem of Global Dimming and the world could get considerably hotter. And this is not just theory, it may already be happening. In Western Europe the steps we have taken to cut air pollution have started to bear fruit in a noticeable improvement in air quality and even a slight reduction in Global Dimming over the last few years. Yet at the same time, after decades in which they held steady, European temperatures have started rapidly to rise culminating in the savage summer of 2003.

Forest fires devastated Portugal. Glaciers melted in the Alps. And in France people died by the thousand. Could this be the penalty of reducing Global Dimming without tackling the root cause of global warming?

DR BEATE LIEPERT: We thought we live in a global warming world, um but this is actually er not right. We lived in a global warming plus a Global Dimming world, and now we are taking out Global Dimming. So we end up with the global warming world, which will be much worse than we thought it will be, much hotter.

NARRATOR: This is the crux of the problem. While the greenhouse effect has been warming the planet, it now seems Global Dimming has been cooling it down. So the warming caused by carbon dioxide has been hidden from us by the cooling from air pollution. But that situation is now starting to change.

DR PETER COX (Hadley Centre, Met Office): We're gonna be in a situation unless we act where the cooling pollutant is dropping off while the warming pollutant is going up, CO2 will be going up and particles will be dropping off and that means we'll get an accelerated warming. We'll get a double whammy, we'll get, we'll get reducing cooling and increased heating at the same time and that's, that's a problem for us.

NARRATOR: And that's not all. Climatologists like Peter Cox have begun to worry that Global Dimming has led them to underestimate the true power of global warming. They fear that the Earth could be far more vulnerable to greenhouse gases than they had previously thought.

DR PETER COX: We've got two competing effects really, that we've got the greenhouse effect, which has tended to warm up the climate. But then we've got this other effect that's much stronger than we thought, which is a cooling effect that comes from particles in the atmosphere. And they're competing with one another. And we know the climate's moved to a warmer state by about point six of a degree over the last hundred years. So the whole thing's moved this way. If it turns out that the cooling is stronger than we thought then the warming also is a lot stronger than we thought, and that means the climate's more sensitive to carbon dioxide than we originally thought, and it means our models may be under sensitive to carbon dioxide.

NARRATOR: The models that everyone has been using to forecast climate change predict a maximum warming of 5 degrees by the end of the century. But Cox and his colleagues now fear those models may be wrong. Temperatures could rise twice as fast as they previously thought with irreversible damage just twenty-five years away.

Transcript continues: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/dimming_trans.shtml


If new generation biofuels that are being looked at seriously by Boeing and the airline companies (as can be seen here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x267281:URL|Air New Zealand - Jatropha Biofuel Test Flight (is this the "Holy Grail" of biofuel?)>) do not emit the same kind of particles when they are burnt, they need to step up the production immediately, instead of thinking about pumping more particles into the atmosphere.

There's simply no time to waste...

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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #27
38. Thank you, arikara.
I submit that "injecting pollution particles into the upper atmosphere" has been going on (in my part of the country, at least) since 1999 and may be observed on most clear days.
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The abyss Donating Member (930 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-08-09 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
31. The US government can’t balance a checkbook –
Edited on Wed Apr-08-09 10:54 PM by The abyss
And we should trust them to do what on a planetary scale?
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tama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-09-09 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
32. Don't
try to fix the problem with a technofix that will just cause even worse problems. The vicious circle.

Just stop causing it.
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Reform Donating Member (417 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-09-09 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
34. they have allready been doing this
for over 10 years, there called chemtrails, not to be confused with contrails.
They have been documented extensively over the years, it's nice they are coming out and admitting it, well at least America finally is.

I personally believe its quite dangerous, much like cloning cows to eat. You just don't know the side effects that may be in the future.
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dbt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. Thank you, Reform.
You are exactly right!
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rcrush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. ++1
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pinniped Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-09-09 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
36. Lex Luther knows something about climate engineering.
He nearly destroyed the entire South American coffee crop.
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
44. Chemtrails anyone? Jeez
"One such extreme option includes shooting pollution particles into the upper atmosphere to reflect the sun's rays. Holdren said such an experimental measure would only be used as a last resort."

And yet when the CT "kooks" say the same thing and claim that this is exactly what so-called chemtrails have been doing for many years now, they are called crazy.

What, you think Holdren just suddenly made this up as a possible technique?
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ShareTheWoods Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-10-09 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
45. What could possibly go wrong?
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-11-09 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
46. WOW "use of so-called artificial trees to suck carbon dioxide" could
be used in all the clear cuts!!

You'd think the scientists were not informed that humans can plant trees too!!
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