Saudi judge upholds man's marriage to 8-year-old

[Turborama]

Source: CNN

By Mohammed Jamjoom

A Saudi mother is expected to appeal a judge's ruling after he once again refused to let her 8-year-old daughter divorce a 47-year-old man, a relative said. Sheikh Habib Al-Habib made the ruling Saturday in the Saudi city of Onaiza. Late last year, he rejected a petition to annul the marriage.

The case, which has drawn criticism from local and international rights groups, came to light in December when Al-Habib declined to annul the marriage on a legal technicality. His dismissal of the mother's petition sparked outrage and made headlines around the world.

The judge said the mother, who is separated from the girl's father, was not the legal guardian and therefore could not represent her daughter, the mother's lawyer, Abdullah al-Jutaili, said at the time.

The girl's husband pledged not to consummate the marriage until the girl reaches puberty, according to al-Jutaili, who added that the girl's father arranged the marriage to settle his debts with the man, who is considered "a close friend."

Read more: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/04/12/saudi.child.marriage/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

---

I suppose this is seen as normal there, considering Mohammed had a http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&q=mohammed+9+year+old+wife&btnG=Search">9 year old wife ...

[Syrinx]

1. if we had to attack an Arab country after 9/11...

And I don't think we did. But Saudi Arabia is an evil, evil country.

[Oregone]

3. "evil" is a word that should belong in no ones political vocabulary, besides Bush

[BlooInBloo]

4. Bullshit. Just because *he* misused it doesn't mean that a correct use is impossible.

[Oregone]

6. It describes a spritual supernatural force.

Bush's usage was correct. He erred by using it in the first place in a public policy decisions and applying it the way he did.

[Syrinx]

8. evil is not necessarily supernatural

I think Bush himself is evil. Certainly Cheney. And I don't mean anything supernatural about that. They're just really bad people. And Saudi Arabia is a really bad country. Evil.

[Oregone]

10. It may be easier to say "really bad" then, if that is what you mean

As far as the government and politicians go, should they really be using buzz words, that while neutral to some, carry heavy religious and spiritual meaning to a vast number of others?

[Syrinx]

12. "evil" is shorter than "really bad"

And in my context meant exactly the same thing.

[Oregone]

15. It wasn't shorter in this case, judged by the replies

:)

Yeah, I'm offended when people use these loaded buzz words in political dialog. It was one of the most annoying things about Bush, who threw it around to pander to his religious base who dream of spiritual warfare and lust for the bloodshed of the evil-doers.

And I'm really offended at very little.

[Syrinx]

17. I THINK THE RAPE OF A LITTLE CHILD IS EVIL

Why are you offended by that?

[Oregone]

21. Because I don't believe in "evil". Its usage seems ambiguous and confusing

Is "evil", in your usage, suggestive of some supernatural force causing a man to rape a child? Is he not responsible himself?

Is the act of "evil" inspired by a detrimental sub-diety, like Satan?

Is "evil" some quantifiable force in the world that can be added to and subtracted from? Is it intelligent?

Or are you saying its a betrayl to human decency and life? Is that a definition of evil?

Are you saying its universally "bad"? Is anything universally "bad"? That suggests universal, not relative, morality, and hence, suggests a universal diety(s).

Seems like a loaded word.

[Syrinx]

23. I offer that it is universally evil to rape a child. Yes I do.

[Oregone]

25. So is there a god?

[Syrinx]

27. I don't know.

But I don't need a god to tell me that fucking an eight-year-old child is wrong.

[Oregone]

28. If there is a universal morality, that suggests there is a god...right?

So, you don't know if there is a God, but you are sure there is a universal moral code? Is this correct?

[Syrinx]

30. I know that fucking little kids is bad

Do you think otherwise?

[Oregone]

32. Have I suggested its "good" or even "permissable"?

I'm suggesting nothing for the moment.

Rather still trying to determine your usage of the word "evil". If you are using it to imply some violation of a universal morality, then you are essentially using it in a theological (and philosophical) manner. So again, we come full circle, and must ask, why is a theological/religious word being applied to a political entity, such as the state of Saudi Arabia?

[Syrinx]

33. you are playing games

My comment had nothing to do with theology, and you know it. I had fun playing.

[Oregone]

35. If you are saying that: "Saudia Arabia is [violating a universal morality]"

your comment may have everything to do with religion and theology.

It may be more effective to explain why Saudi Arabia is atrociously detrimental to their citizens' physical and mental health in words that don't run off into mile long tangents.

[Revolution9]

Mr. Armchair philosopher.

no one is impressed by your "universal morality" dribble.
this is not philosophy class.
there is no universal morality.
and no one mentioned "God".

i don't know what is so hard to figure out about the absolute "EVIL" that this state sanctioned pedophilia represents.

instead you parse words, reaching for tomes of philosophy on human nature.

i bet the little girl is not thinking "what is universal morality in the contexts of evil" when 47 year old man is climbing his nasty ass on top of her.

i think there is a time for knee jerk reactions to repulsive thing to label them evil.
this is one of those time.

wrap your head around that, sartre.

[acmavm]

57. Amazing. In this whole situation what you find to bitch about is the definition

and etymology of the word 'evil'.

Here's an example: Nitpicking - Original definition

Nitpicking is the act of removing nits (the eggs of lice, generally head lice) from the host's hair.

The word as it applies to you:

As nitpicking inherently requires fastidious, meticulous attention to detail, the term has become appropriated to describe the practice of meticulously searching for minor, even trivial errors in detail (often referred to as "nits" as well), and then criticising them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitpicking

There. Now are you happy? 'Evil' is now a multitasker.

[GoesTo11]

66. The "husband" vows not to consummate the marriage until puberty

Not that this makes it ok, and not that this means she won't be a child, but this is more about children's rights and women's rights than pedophilia. He's buying his wife like buying new vintage today to put in the wine cellar for a while for future use.

[harmonicon]

77. not a child?

I don't know when you reached puberty, but it was well before adulthood for me.

[GoesTo11]

78. You misread.

Me: "not that this means she won't be a child"

in other words, Me: She will still be a child when she hits puberty.

Like you, I reached puberty well before adulthood. I'm still working on adulthood.

[harmonicon]

82. sorry - need more coffee

[paulsby]

101. technically speaking, it's not really pedophilia

if the party has reached puberty.

it may still be illegal in some countries, but pedophilia is best used to refer to those who have sex with children - those who haven't physically developed through puberty.

in some countries, like canada, the age fo consent is 14. a 14 yr old is DEFINITELY a child, but has usually reached puberty

[christx30]

96. Not that the

child might want to fall in love with someone and marry them later in life.
This is good because it removes the pressure to find someone later. She doesn't have to worry about that now. Her entire life, from 8 years old until the day she dies is now planned out for her. She will live until she decides that she wants to be with someone else, and then either her husband will kill her for being a disloyal wife or her family will kill her for shaming the family.
What a wonderful culture, fully equal anything the west has.
:sarcasm: Though I hope I wouldn't need it.

[JJ]

51. Nuremberg definition

“In my work with the defendants (at the Nuremberg Trails 1945-1949) I was searching for the nature of evil and I now think I have come close to defining it. A lack of empathy. It’s the one characteristic that connects all the defendants, a genuine incapacity to feel with their fellow men.

Evil, I think, is the absence of empathy.”

Quotation: Captain G. M. Gilbert, the Army psychologist assigned to watching the defendants at the Nuremberg trails


A completely valid word IMO.

[Revolution9]

67. you really miss the forest for trees....

evil,bad,malicious.

i am offended by your lame attempt at symanitics while apparently missing the whole point.

sorry evil offends you.

maybe you should not hold onto 2 syllable words so vociferiously.

this country and the man who married the 8 year old=evil,evil,evil,evil.

[christx30]

68. Evil

1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.

[paulsby]

100. so because YOU don 't believe in evil

other people should be so "enlightened"

kenndy, truman, fdr, all referred to evil and evil people, and evil acts.

i've seen evil firsthand. it exists.

if you don't believe in it, fine.

and the existence of evil is NOT dependant on a deity, or a devil.

although one claim is that the devil's greatest victory was in convincing people/letting them believe he doesn't exist.

[Alamuti Lotus]

40. Nobody is talking about raping a little child.. except you, of course

Re-read the original piece a little closer; the suitor in question of course agrees to delay sexual relations until far later. That doesn't make the situation any less stupid (although arranged marriages as a sort of currancy is not particularly rare in the world), but it is not as you rabidly imply.

[Coventina]

87. So if she begins menstruating at age 11 (which many girls do)

Is it then ok for the 50ish husband to have sex with her?

on edit: grammar

[paulsby]

99. john kennedy did

he also mentioned god a lot.

guess you need to re-educate him.

[BlooInBloo]

13. If that were the only possible thing that the word could mean, I would agree with you...

But it isn't, and I don't.

[Oregone]

18. Thats about all it means to the fundie base its been thrown at for 8 years

Thereby explaining why it was thrown their way so often. Im not sure why anyone would follow suite.

The word clearly has origins in theology and a continuing usage in that realm. Im not even sure why, when there are so many better ways to discuss this behavior, one opts for using "evil".

[BlooInBloo]

19. (facepalm)

[Oregone]

26. (assplant)

[Syrinx]

20. it wasn't just this

Saudi Arabia is evil because they allow men to rape children. They have public beheadings as entertainment. They don't allow women to even drive a car, or go out without a male relative. And they are the most anti-Jewish piece of shit nation on earth. They are EVIL!

[Oregone]

22. Look, I'm not defending Saudi Arabia. Im just criticizing the chosen word to describe them.

[bsiebs]

95. You, too, are evil you armchair moralist

Take a look in the mirror.

You want to sit here and moralize about how that evil country is allowing the marriage of an eight year old to a 47 year old man. I do not like that either.. however...

While you find the time to go on and on about this horrible injustice, or evil.. you live in a country that has killed more children with "precision" bombing than Saudi Arabia could ever even dream of marrying to a 47 year old man.

So go ahead and condemn that country. Go ahead and feel good about how much better you are than them, but if you are going to take the "evil" route, you are right up there on the same "evil" list with your funding of the atrocities of this "evil" country (the US) as well. Simply because you are a contributor to the evil perpetuated by the US - this does not mean you cannot see and condemn other evil, but you should be careful with bantering it around like you are some saint, you are not. By your lack of action on many fronts, you, too, are evil.

Unless you are willing to go out and fight this injustice that you are so passionate about, my final words to you are, shut the fuck up.

[Bluenorthwest]

48. The meaning of the word is not what you claim

Evil as defined by Webster: morally reprehensible. Nothing about God or no God, absolutes, universals or anything.
Just because YOU assume the meaning of word is as you assume does not make your assumption fact. Older use of the word meant things like 'inferior' and 'causing discomfort' ie, these evil shoes are vexing me. Again, nothing supernatural at all.

[Revolution9]

69. thank you.

i doubt definition clarity matters to a person who only sees the word for how * used it.

[paulsby]

102. lots of valid and descriptive words

have origins in theology. heck, one could argue religions evolved as a way to help explain observed phenomena - to include the presence of EVIL.

iow, religion was invented/evolved to EXPLAIN evil, not create the concept.

i don't give a flying fuck whether the concept of evil has origins in religion , or in nascar.

it has descriptive utility, and we know what it means.

it's a valid term. if it offends you because god forbid it has a tie in with theology - tough..

if otoh you deny evil exists, then i'll simply say you are naive.

[Syrinx]

5. I'm not sure what you mean

I'm pretty sure that a national government sanctioning the rape of an eight-year-old is evil. Did you know that Saudi Arabia will not, as a general practice, even let Jews enter the country? I'm not saying that many Jews want to vacation in SA, but come on, to ban Jews from even entering the country. That's pretty close to evil, at least.

[Oregone]

9. You are not sure what I mean, and you continue to use the term "evil"....

But some of us don't believe the fictional, magical, spiritual force of Evil exists, so, ya know, we don't much like governments and politicians throwing it around to describe people's actions.

Although "evil" can be intended to be used secularly to described atrocious behavior, it has a religious and spiritual origin.

[Syrinx]

16. evil means "evil"

# morally objectionable behavior

# morally bad or wrong; "evil purposes"; "an evil influence"; "evil deeds"

# that which causes harm or destruction or misfortune; "the evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones"- Shakespeare

# having the nature of vice

# the quality of being morally wrong in principle or practice; "attempts to explain the origin of evil in the world"

# malefic: having or exerting a malignant influence; "malevolent stars"; "a malefic force"

[Oregone]

24. You don't find any of those definitions somewhat odd?

Eh, whatever. Just pick the definition you like the most. Dump the word. Might be easier. It may convey its meaning more effectively.

"that which causes harm or destruction or misfortune" may be better.

Could you have said: "But Saudi Arabia is a country that causes harm, destruction, and misfortune to humans"?

Because while you said Saudi Arabia is evil, you also said, to some people, "Saudi Arabia is a country ran by Satan"

[Syrinx]

29. I assume that most people here have basic comprehension skills

And can read the English language.

[Oregone]

31. Well, its an incorrect assumption...

that everyone will comprehend every word as you intend it (despite their level), especially when you use words with multiple meanings and complex origins. How one derives meaning from words can be influenced heavily by their cultural upbringing, education levels, interests, intelligence, etc. You shouldn't assume all such readers are the same.

[Bluenorthwest]

54. Yeah, and when you say 'Democrat' some people hear

'Commie' but that is about their inference as filtered through their prejudice, it is not due to the implications of the word choice. The speaker implies. The listener infers. Learning the meanings of those words might do you a heap of good!

[No Elephants]

34. You seem to be confusing evil with devil or evil spirit. Evil=morally bad, the opposite of morally

good.

Definitions of evil on the Web:

morally objectionable behavior
morally bad or wrong; "evil purposes"; "an evil influence"; "evil deeds"
that which causes harm or destruction or misfortune; "the evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones"- Shakespeare
having the nature of vice
the quality of being morally wrong in principle or practice; "attempts to explain the origin of evil in the world"
malefic: having or exerting a malignant influence; "malevolent stars"; "a malefic force"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

"Evil" is a song by New York City-based Indie rock band Interpol and is featured on the band's second album, Antics. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_(Interpol_song)

Britannia was the term originally used by the Romans to refer first to the British Isles, and later to the island of Great Britain. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EVIL!

And, when the dictionary gives you several meanings, any ONE is correct. You don't have to limit yourself to using the word to mean ALL the alternatives given. Indeed, in may instances, that would be nigh impossible

Evil is the 8th single by the music group Ladytron. It was released in 2003, and reached a position of #44 on the UK Singles Chart. This is the last Ladytron single from the album Light & Magic.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_(Ladytron_song)

"Evil" (sometimes referred to as "Evil (Is Going On)") is a Chicago blues standard written by Willie Dixon for Howlin' Wolf, first released on ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_(Howlin'_Wolf_song)

Evil, in many cultures, is used to describe acts or thoughts which are contrary to some particular religion. In some religions, evil is an active force, often personified as an entity such as Satan or Ahriman.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil

Evil, also known as Το Κακό in Greek, is 2005 Greek zombie horror film, which can also be classified as a splatter film. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_(2005_film)

Evil (Ondskan) is a 2003 Swedish movie, directed by Mikael Håfström, based on Jan Guillou's autobiographical book Ondskan from 1981.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evil_(film)

The forces/behaviors that are the opposite or enemy of good. Evil generally seeks own benefit at the expense of others and is based on general malevolence; Any particular individual or state which may follow these forces or behaviors; Intending to harm; malevolent; Morally corrupt
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Evil

evilness - Of or relating to evil and bad
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/evilness

Find definitions of evil in: English French German Korean Portuguese Russian all languages

[Oregone]

36. I mean Id recommend a different adjective.

[No Elephants]

37. Sorry, I edited my post after I read the thread. Please read the revised version. You may

have a personal aversion to the term, but your view of it does not seem to be shared by many users of the English language, as indicated by dictionaries, which strive to record the practices of most users. And, I believe the first definition given by the dictionary indicates the meaning that most users of the English language use most. That does not necessarily make it more correct than the other meanings given, just more common.

[Bluenorthwest]

49. Not only is the meaning not as he claims

the origins are also secular, and not what he claims. Lots of talk about origins and yet not a stated fact about them. Lots of redefinitions, but not one from say, a dictionary, to prove the point. Language is not imporvisational. Words have meanings.

[Oregone]

70. Well, a problem is that you are referencing "morality"

(in the edited version)

It is a problem at least for me. Here is a behavior you can describe in scientific terms and objectively, but a word is used that can also be assossiated with "morality", which is yet another gray area, you know. Does morality even universally exist? Does morality have a spiritual foundation?

[Zenlitened]

84. "Does morality have a spiritual foundation?"

Answer: No.

Not if you mean "spiritual" to mean "supernatural."

Morality, ethics, reason, even the sense of "spirituality" -- all of these are part and parcel of our humanity.

The ancient Poets animated all sensible objects
with Gods or Geniuses, calling them by the names
and adorning them with the properties
of woods, rivers, mountains, lakes, cities, nations,
and whatever their enlarged & numerous
senses could perceive.

And particularly they studied the genius
of each city & country, placing it under its mental deity.
Till a system was formed,
which some took advantage of & enslav'd the vulgar
by attempting to realize or abstract
the mental deities from their objects:
thus began Priesthood,
choosing forms of worship from poetic tales.

And at length they pronounced
that the Gods had order'd such things.
Thus men forgot that All deities
reside in the human breast.

-- William Blake

[Oregone]

88. Is it universal then?

Is there a single objective code of morality? What then defines it (without a spiritual deity) and how do we know it to be "true" amongst everyone? Can it be tested scientifically?

Isn't there an easier way, from a political perspective, to describe harmful behavior (to mankind) without opening Pandora's box?

[Zenlitened]

91. Whether it is universal or not, is a separate and largely unrelated question.

Philosophers could probably come up with an exception to any "universal" rule or truth.

Scientists could -- and are -- exploring the evolutionary roots of morality with no need to apply "god did it" as an explanation. (The Max Planck Institute is one leading center for this type of work.)

From a political perspective, I see great value in reclaiming the word "morality" -- not to mention "good" and "evil" --from the religionist frame which seeks to link these things to a deity.

If I understand correctly, it is this religionist frame that alarms you. I agree that religion clings tightly to its false sense of ownership of these terms. Religionists are the ones falsely claiming that, without religion and its god(s), morality cannot exist.

So I think your concern is valid. My preference, however, is to point out at every opportunity that morality is purely, entirely a human thing. I prefer to reclaim the language, rather than cede it, whenever possible. So that what is seen today as "religious" vocabulary or terminology will someday be seen for the human construct that it is. Allegory. Metaphor. Fable. Much like the story of Pandora's box.

:hi:

[Oregone]

92. "From a political perspective, I see great value in..."

Basing policy in demonstrable (scientifically, mathematically, psychologically, historically) methods and procedures to accomplish desired goals.

If a society accepts, as a premise, humans should seek (as it can be proven they desire to do so) to promote pleasure, in so far as it does not cause some amount of pain to a population, they should find demonstrable methods to achieve this goal. This can all be done from a scientific and secular perspective, soundly, with solid arguments behind it.

But creating policy and diplomacy based on morality, which is often dynamic and arbitrary, can set the precedent for policies that can cause great emotional and physical harm to people (because dynamic morality can change with the time, and hence, so can policy built upon it). Secular politicians should be careful to change an argument from what is "right/good/moral" and "wrong/bad/evil" to what logically fulfills the desired goals of a society and what are the consequences of doing so.

Although you say that if it is universal is unrelated to being moral, it is important to ask. Saudi Arabia, in their own eyes, may be moral, because if it is not universal, it is relative. Hence, pointing out that they are merely "evil" in your eyes does nothing for them but convince them you are blind. But to say it is universal, well, that goes in another direction of suggesting universalism and religion. Its all so sticky.

I'm not sure why we cannot merely say, this policy hurts people, emotionally and physically. Why is that so difficult? Why can't we say, I wish our country would not do business with another that is detrimental to its citizens existence. Why would we rather create some Axis of Evil motif and throw it around to guide policy...then you are speaking in 100 different languages to hundreds of different people who see what they want in what you are saying, just causing an absurd mess.

Why doesn't the The Democrat Underground get this? :)

[aquart]

42. How would you describe Cheney? Misguided?

[Oregone]

60. sociopath

[Bryn]

83. Evil simply means living backward

Evil is Live backward.

[paulsby]

98. so john kennedy was wrong

to refer to evil? how about FDR? Truman?

they all did.

bush didn't invent the term evil.

and evil DOES exist.

i've seen it firsthand.

ever seen a young man with his head sawed off? i have. ever talked to a man that did such a thing. i have.

he was pure evil.

[indepat]

47. God, this nation with so many sick people following a sick law and custom make me sick

:grr:

[LeftishBrit]

64. Countries aren't evil; but governments and political systems are

And attacking would have been and would still be wrong and would have killed far more 8-year-old girls than mediaeval judges.

Some form of diplomatic or economic sanctions might be an idea however (except that as far as economic sanctions are concerned, the ball is more in their court..)

[BlooInBloo]

2. (facepalm)

What's almost as jackass is that DUers whine about the "reverse sexist" acceptance of cougars.

[Bobbieo]

7. I sure hope this young girl is a "late bloomer". I think I view the male Saudis

as the most disgusting people on earth. Cut off their viagra among other things.

[Syrinx]

11. did you hear about the US military bribing Afghan tribal leaders with Viagra?

I think I saw it on 60 Minutes. That was pretty creative problem solving, but I wonder about the "side-effects."

[GinaMaria]

85. IIRC Bill Mayer did a piece on this n/t

[tomm2thumbs]

14. but 8 is actually 24 in Saudi years

sarcasm

I wonder how much he was owed - what's a good 8 year old going for these days?

sad, very sad

[No Elephants]

38. Sure, wait until puberty, wink, wink. But, why, once she is theoretically of age to rape, doesn't

she even get to choose who rapes her?

[truthisfreedom]

39. Sick country.

SA sucks.

[Judi Lynn]

41. There are people far closer to your own home you can rage about, like Warren Jeffs:

http://www.bankingonheaven.com.nyud.net:8090/img/Warren_kissing_child_bride.jpg

Warren Jeffs with 12 year old bride

http://www.bankingonheaven.com/

http://img.photobucket.com.nyud.net:8090/albums/v611/TheBeowulf/Rjeffs_brides2.jpg

Rulon Jeffs

No reason to feel obligated to extend your need to comdemn people only in other countries, other religions, other racial backgrounds. Pedophiles are no more the "enemy" in Saudi Arabia than are American pedophiles right here where YOU live.

[rollin74]

43. Warren Jeffs has been tried, convicted

and put in prison for his crimes in the United States. People are condemning Saudi Arabia because the courts there are letting a child predator off the hook to continue his crime against a little girl.

[Alamuti Lotus]

45. What *actions* have taken place between 'husband' and 'wife'?

One of us seems to be missing something here:--given the (often annoying) hyper-vigilance of your humble narrator on one hand, and the knee-jerk hysteria running rampant on the other.. it's probably you.

[cali]

50. uh, keep up. Where is Warren Jeffs, dear? Oh, that's right he was prosecuted

by (gas) the state. He was convicted. He's in prison. I know this is difficult for the reflexively America-is-eviler crowd, but the law here doesn't legally recognize pedophilia as legitimate. Furthermore, difficult as it is for the black and white crowd you embrace, one can actually condemn both perverts here and other places, but the outrage is that this is legally and culturally endorsed in SA. duh.

[IndianaGreen]

74. Add to that a Catholic hierarchy protecting pedophile clerics rather than the children

The blame lies in patriarchal religions, from the Christianity that says that women's role is to be baby factories, to the Judaism that says that "women's voices are lewd."

[LeftishBrit]

94. Jeffs is a sick monster..

but the difference is that his country treats him as a criminal, whereas in Saudi Arabia equivalent actions are legal and (by many) accepted.

[fujiyama]

44. Wow.

Now that is really fucked up.

[bobburgster]

46. Quite interesting that....

the vast majority of replies involved debating the virtues of using the word evil to describe a (horrendous,appalling, awful, dreadful, fearful, frightful, ghastly, horrible, shocking) situation. Is it avoidance of the topic or just that it is very repulsive and frustrating that there is probably very little we can do to change the way Saudi Arabia operates.

[Bluenorthwest]

52. This is a repulsive story

about a repulsive country. And here folks see this story and think, now this is the story I want to use to parse words and split hairs. Reprehensible, which is another word for evil.

[Christa]

53. Damn right!

Since Mohammad had a nine year old wife, I don't find it unusual that 8 year old children are deemed to be old enough to be married. Don't want to offend Mohammed's legacy now, do we?

:sarcasm:

[1776Forever]

55. Saudi Human Rights Commission, a government-run group - Say what? A Saudi Human Rights Commission -

Huffington Post Article on them here - Fighting the "Religious Police" can they hope to win anything?:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/23/saudi-human-rights-group_n_178005.html

Saudi Human Rights Group Criticizes Religious Police For Discriminating Against Women

DONNA ABU-NASR | March 23, 2009

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — A Saudi human rights groups has strongly criticized the kingdom's religious police, judiciary and security agencies in a new report and called for changing laws that discriminate against women.

The report, issued Sunday by the National Society for Human Rights, also urged an end to the marriage of underage girls and demanded a faster pace for judicial reform, including retraining judges.

This is the group's second report, since its founding in 2004.

The report highlighted violations by the powerful Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice which runs the religious police and accused it of "infringing individuals' rights."

People detained by the religious police have been "interrogated and sometimes assaulted and made to confess under duress to acts they did not commit," the report said, adding that in some cases this has led to deaths in custody.

"In commenting on the incidents, the commission leans toward denying them, belittling their importance or saying they are individual acts," said the report.

Currently there are efforts to retrain members of the religious police through workshops, but the report said these do not go far enough.

...........

Talk about a paper tiger!

[fasttense]

56. This is what happens when a country sanctions polygamy.

Why, polygamy frequently devolves into child abuse is unclear but in most societies that have allowed polygamy, child abuse accompanies it. It starts out sounding so benign, two consenting adults can choose who they want as sex partners, even multiple sex partners. But then it seems to spread to the children of those unions. And the children now become sex partners.

I think it has to do with making people see other people (women in this case) as property. Well, if your wife is property then your daughter is property, and then maybe even your little boy. So having sex with your property is no big deal even if they are little children.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

58. If The Word "Evil" Is Verboten Then So Is The Word "Good"

That just doesn't make sense.

[JVS]

72. No. The opposite of good is bad. The opposite of evil is holy.

[MannyGoldstein]

59. Good To See That Obama Only *Bowed* To The Saudi King

No french kissing like Bush.

[VermeerLives]

61. Mohammed married her when she was only 6

and consumated the marrige when she was nine. Like a 6-year-old or 9-year-old can really consent to sex! NOT.

They are only following the example of their prophet, so what's a judge to do? If he rules in favor of the divorce, he's going against Mohammed's own example. And if Allah permitted it for Mohammed, well......?? But if Allah did not permit it, does that make Mohammed a false prophet??

[agincourt]

75. Puts it all into context.

Which is why any type of fundamentalism corrupts absolutely. No human like Mohmmed should be made into a god. To often in theology prophets are made into deities not the mere vessels, the mere messengers they are. The source is what's important not the envelope.

[LeftishBrit]

62. Horrifying

Poor little thing.

[jwirr]

63. Also we should not forget that our own heritage included arranged

marriages at a very young age - especially for political and economic reasons. That of course does not make it right but it should make us less judgmental.

[ohio2007]

65. We also had indentured servitude while Saudi Arabia outlawed slavery in 1962

who knew?

[cali]

71. uh, virtually all cultures, at one time, included arranged marriages at young ages

so what? We're talking about what's happening now, not what happened hundreds of years ago.

[jwirr]

73. As I read this thread I see a lot of anti-cultural posts. I was trying to

say that this is not an uncommon practice in cultures including our own. If you think I approve of the marriage of an 8 year old then you need to reread it. I disapprove of making biased judgments without acknowledging that we also did this at one time. When my SIL was stationed in Turkey he was constantly reminded that these cultures are still living in the same way they did 2000 years ago. That is most of the people still do. He was angry because a husband can commit a crime and let his wife serve the sentence and since most of these countries have polygamy he still has a wife. To acknowledge reality is not to approve of it.

[christx30]

97. The point is that

we have moved beyond that type of practice. They haven't. They are still living as their ancestors did 2000 years ago. Our minds and our culture have evolved. Theirs hasn't, which makes us culturally superior to them. One simply cannot argue parity with them in a rational way. It is like saying that we are equal to chimpanzees in terms of evolution. I'm not saying that we should go to war against them to force them to change. I'm just saying that we should not take them seriously as human beings until they change their ways. And I would not say that a rescue mission to pull that little girl out of harm's way and bring her to a good foster family here in the States would be a bad idea.
Don't regard them as if they are equals to us.

[Odin2005]

76. The KSA is a sick, evil country.

Words fail me... :puke:

[IndianaGreen]

79. The problem lies in the patriarchy in monotheistic religions

From the brand of the Christianity that says that women's role is to be baby factories, to the Judaism that says that "women's voices are lewd." The patriarchy is the reason why monotheistic religions are inherently misogynist and homophobic.

The great anarchist writer Mikhail Bakunin had a healthier view of religion:

All religions, with their gods, their demigods, and their prophets, their messiahs and their saints, were created by the credulous fancy of men who had not attained the full development and full possession of their faculties. Consequently, the religious heaven is nothing but a mirage in which man, exalted by ignorance and faith, discovers his own image, but enlarged and reversed - that is, divinized. The history of religion, of the birth, grandeur, and decline of the gods who have succeeded one another in human belief, is nothing, therefore, but the development of the collective intelligence and conscience of mankind. As fast as they discovered, in the course of their historically progressive advance, either in themselves or in external nature, a power, a quality, or even any great defect whatever, they attributed them to their gods, after having exaggerated and enlarged them beyond measure, after the manner of children, by an act of their religious fancy. Thanks to this modesty and pious generosity of believing and credulous men, heaven has grown rich with the spoils of the earth, and, by a necessary consequence, the richer heaven became, the more wretched became humanity and the earth. God once installed, he was naturally proclaimed the cause, reason, arbiter and absolute disposer of all things: the world thenceforth was nothing, God was all; and man, his real creator, after having unknowingly extracted him from the void, bowed down before him, worshiped him, and avowed himself his creature and his slave.

God and the State (1871)
Mikhail Bakunin

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/bakunin/works/godstate/ch02.htm

[cali]

80. that has to be the most superficial and juvenile piece I've read in ages.

not to mention, hideously written.

[IndianaGreen]

81. It is religion that oppresses men and women that is hideous!

Religion! How it dominates man's mind, how it humiliates and degrades his soul. God is everything, man is nothing, says religion. But out of that nothing God has created a kingdom so despotic, so tyrannical, so cruel, so terribly exacting that naught but gloom and tears and blood have ruled the world since gods began.

Emma Goldman (1910)
Anarchism: What It Really Stands For

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/goldman/works/1910s/anarchism.htm

Have you forgotten the Jewish Taleban, that call themselves "The Chastity Keepers?"

Thursday, 26 February 2009

Orthodox Jews consider women's voices lewd

US female rabbis anger Jews at Wailing Wall

CAIRO (AlArabiya.net)

North American Jewish women rabbis caused a stir at the Wailing Wall Wednesday as they prayed and sang loudly with prayer shawls and skull caps, flouting Orthodox Jewish customs.

One hundred American women rabbis visiting Israel for the Central Conference of American Rabbis sang loud and clear at the wall during a prayer, known as Hallel, to commemorate the 20th anniversary of the founding of the Women of the Wall, an organization that plans female group prayers on the first day of the month.

Men interrupted the women's singing shouting "a woman's voice is lewd," Anat Hoffman, an activist for Reform Judaism in Israel, told Haaretz. "There were about 70 of us praying. I was ashamed in front of the guests from America."

Singing out loud is considered provocative in Orthodox Jewish law which holds that a woman's voice is lewd and prohibits men from hearing women singing.

Jackie Ellenson, one of the North American rabbis visiting Israel for the conference, said several ultra-Orthodox Jewish women from Israel demanded that the group stop singing and then called the police to complain. Ellenson said they considered themselves the wall's "chastity keepers"

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/02/26/67302.html

This from the same rabble that arranges marriages with young girls, just as the Saudis allow.

[Neo Atheist]

90. are you able to post anything without the Jews being involved?

It's like reading Eric Cartman.

[paulsby]

103. hearing criticism from marxists about religions cruelty

is like listening to attila the hun criticizing hannibal for aggressive warmongering.

jeeze

[struggle4progress]

86. The problem is that her father was allowed to treat her as chattel to settle his debts

This is simply an economic transaction: it is essentially a slave sale or child trafficking. Of course, it must be considered uncivilized on any modern view -- but the subsequent cultural or religious justifications are not the source of the exploitation but merely convenient tools for obscuring the criminal nature of the transaction

[Neo Atheist]

89. So let me get this straight about what's "halal" in the KSA

Halal:
- Flogging a 75 year old woman, then jailing her, then deporting her
- Divorcing a woman by text message
- A man near 50 admitting he's going to molest a 12-13 year old

Not Halal:
- An eight year old girl wanting a divorce from a 47 year old man.
- Bringing bread to old woman who lives alone.
- Women driving

At what point do we realize we're friends with a government populated entirely by primitive psychopaths and end the relationship?

It's like the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia wants to be worse than the war criminal government of Sudan and the Taliban.

[JayMusgrove]

93. I wonder if the Saudi Judge will uphold my marriage to a 17 year old...

guy... since I am a guy, too!

I seem to doubt it.

These judges should be sent to some desert island, where they can issue rules about themselves.

[awoke_in_2003]

105. Saudi Arabia...

is a desert land.

on edit: changed "it" to "is"

[wordpix]

104. A 47 y.o. is married to an 8 y.o. girl? That is child abuse, even if it's not rape yet