The Bush Six to Be Indicted

[Tangerine LaBamba]

Source: thedailybeast.com

Spanish prosecutors will seek criminal charges against Alberto Gonzales and five high-ranking Bush administration officials for sanctioning torture at Guantánamo. By Scott Horton.

Spanish prosecutors have decided to press forward with a criminal investigation targeting former U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and five top associates over their role in the torture of five Spanish citizens held at Guantánamo, several reliable sources close to the investigation have told The Daily Beast. Their decision is expected to be announced on Tuesday before the Spanish central criminal court, the Audencia Nacional, in Madrid. But the decision is likely to raise concerns with the human-rights community on other points: They will seek to have the case referred to a different judge.

Read more: http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2009-04-13/the-bush-six-to-be-indicted/

---

Now, it begins .................

[jtrockville]

1. and justice for all

[Schema Thing]

2. Sweeeet!! (I didn't know about Spain having citizens in Guantanamo)

[Tangerine LaBamba]

7. And, I believe, they lost soldiers

in Iraq.

That's how they got jurisdiction over Pinochet - Spanish citizens were murdered by his people while in Chile.

Spain has a very gutsy and cutting-edge bunch of legal people. Very brave and very left. I love the law.............

[Baby Snooks]

37. Hope springs eternal...

Maybe other members of the EU will back Spain and force the issue with the General Assembly of the United Nations and demand it find a way to override the Security Council and demand investigation and prosecution by the International Criminal Court - the Security Council of course won't and if it attempted to no doubt the United States would veto it. Or have Great Britain veto it.

Of course Spain could decide "when in Rome do as the Romans do" and just hire some thugs to kidnap everyone and whisk them off to Spain.

Should prove interesting to see how the Obama Administration responds to the coming request for extradition.

[Fedja]

41. Forget extradition

In 99% of cases, countries do not extradite their own citizens to foreign courts, not to mention that we're talking about the US here. Not exactly the shining star of international law compliance. However, if convicted, they'll be effectively banned from travel abroad. While the US would refuse extradition of their own, a German customs officer would have no issue with chaining them up and shipping them to Madrid.

No proper justice is likely to come out of this, other than a cathartic agreement that what they did was illegal. That, and they'll be banned from spewing their toxic ideas at speeches abroad.

[LiberalFighter]

121. It will limit their ability to produce income too.

Anything that does that I support. Hopefully, Gonzales continues to be unemployed or at least under employed.

Keep in mind that they will also likely slip up when making travel arrangements overseas.

[Lena inRI]

45. V I V A ! E S P A N A !

Los fusilamientos del tres de mayo is a painting completed in 1814 by the Spanish master Francisco Goya, now in the Museo del Prado, Madrid. In the work, Goya sought to commemorate Spanish resistance to Napoleon's armies during the occupation of 1808.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_of_May_1808

Most Spaniards know well that you have to stand up to fascists . . ..as they have many times..

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Delphinus]

60. Si! Si!

Show us the way, Spain, as we seem to have lost ours.

Many, many thanks. May it bring justice, finally.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberation]

108. According to their report, 5 Spanish citizens were held in Gitmo

I believe Canada and the UK are exploring similar venues, as they did have some of their citizens "renditioned" to Gitmo too.

[ieoeja]

112. Who said any Spaniards were murdered?

Rightists really should study the events leading up to the American Revolution. Somewhere, sometime, somebody told them it was about taxes when in reality the issue of taxation was only a minor concern of the colonies.

The abusive legal system was first and foremost in their minds. That is why 5 of the Bill of Rights concerns the rights of those suspected, accused, arrested or convicted of a crime (so if you agree with the Rightist slogan, "you give up your rights when you commit a crime," you have just dismissed a full 50% of the Bill of Rights).

Torture is a dagger to the heart of our founding fathers.

[ieoeja]

127. Jeepers, Creepers...

Amazing how well some Freepers blend in...

"Muhammadan Spaniard" using the adjective shows the typical Rightist disrespect for Muslims. Since 9/11, that is. During the 2000 election the Rightist propaganda machine was out in full force belittling Gore's insistence that terrorism should be our #1 priority on national security. Somehow all the little Rightist quislings seem to have forgotten this.

And why would anyone find it strange that there are Muslims in Spain?

Now, to decode the message text...

"How (leaves out "many" in typical Freeper grammar) Spanish Jihaddis (assumes guilt) were murdered (torture isn't torture if nobody dies) at Club G'itmo (almost as nice as Club Med)?" Did I leave anything out?

Elsewhere we have you referring to "career apartchiks" in the State Department, code for "incompetent Leftists" and the all too common excuse for the non-stop foreign policy failures of every Republican president from Reagan on forward.

And finally the tagline - "Who said Jimmy Carter wouldn't get a second term?" - is one of the popular Rightists slogans vis-a-vis Obama.


Yup, you blend in real well.

[L. Coyote]

164. Spain is protecting its citizens from terrorism by the Bush Junta. No surprise this!

What was Bush thinking, that he ruled the planet?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

180. Ten feel tall and bulletproof

Flight suit, fake landing of a plane, a big banner proclaiming "Mission Accomplished."

Their arrogance made them think they were untouchable.

Note Obama's behavior after the rescue of the Captain Phillips? Yeah, he went to work and took time out for some kids at the Easter Egg Roll.

[earthboundmisfit]

3. To the Greatest!

Pleeeeeeezzzzzzz let this actually happen... but this is one of those things I'll believe when I see.

[pacalo]

4. Wonderful news!

[Juche]

5. Damn activist judges

:sarcasm:

[Tiggeroshii]

6. How does this work?

You know, with the whole sovereignty thing and all?

[azul]

8. I guess that international law findings and enforcement are up for grabs

after the past 8 years of bad behavior by a super-bully.

The doctrine of preemptive war waging has left a mess in its wake.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

10. Universal Jurisdiction

A lovely concept, already endorsed by the US. See my post below.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

9. It's a matter of "universal jurisdiction"

A wonderful concept that states - that some crimes are so horrible, they are subject to jurisdiction, and, of course, prosecution in any court in the world.

Here's a very good summary of it - and you'll note, in the last paragraph, that the US has a history of participating, which, tonight, especially, is sweet: http://www.amnesty.org/en/international-justice/issues/universal-jurisdiction

That's how they nailed Pinochet, and, it would appear, they are now employing it in their investigation, and presumable indictment, of Gonzales and the named thugs.

This is a very big deal, I mean REALLY BIG, and I trust the source. It might seem like a small step, but I will tell you that, tonight, Fuckface and Cheney are not breathing easily. There is sweat on their filthy foreheads, and they will not be sleeping very well from now on.

It has begun. It starts small, and it continues. Like army ants.............

[bdamomma]

81. they need to start with the small fish and they will lead them to

the big fish!!!

[Lugnut]

109. How beautiful!

This gives me hope that justice will prevail.

[stillcool]

11. It's the individual lawyers...

that they're bringing charges against..not the government. Perhaps this is the way it starts?

The six defendants—in addition to Gonzales, Federal Appeals Court Judge and former Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee, University of California law professor and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General John Yoo, former Defense Department general counsel and current Chevron lawyer William J. Haynes II, Vice President Cheney’s former chief of staff David Addington, and former Undersecretary of Defense Douglas J. Feith—are accused of having given the green light to the torture and mistreatment of prisoners held in U.S. detention in “the war on terror.” The case arises in the context of a pending proceeding before the court involving terrorism charges against five Spaniards formerly held at Guantánamo. A group of human-rights lawyers originally filed a criminal complaint asking the court to look at the possibility of charges against the six American lawyers. Baltasar Garzón Real, the investigating judge, accepted the complaint and referred it to Spanish prosecutors for a view as to whether they would accept the case and press it forward. “The evidence provided was more than sufficient to justify a more comprehensive investigation,” one of the lawyers associated with the prosecution stated.
------------------------------

The Spanish prosecutors briefed the American diplomats on the status of the case, how it arose, the nature of the allegations raised against the former U.S. government officials. The Americans “were basically there just to collect information,” the source stated.The Spanish prosecutors advised the Americans that they would suspend their investigation if at any point the United States were to undertake an investigation of its own into these matters. They pressed to know whether any such investigation was pending. These inquiries met with no answer from the U.S. side.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

12. No one's going after the U. S..............

They're going after the individual thugs who committed these crimes.

And, yes, this is how it begins. This is EXACTLY how it begins, and when you read about the meeting between the State Department folks and the Spanish lawyers and legislators, you realize exactly how much the Obama White House is behind this, which is exactly as it should be.

No sitting President is ever going to make a move to go after any of his predecessors, that being a dangerous precedent that must never be established. But, when a friendly foreign country decided to take jurisdiction and begin an investigation, the US could, if it wanted, but the skids on it. That our diplomats cooperated and talked with the Spaniards is a very clear signal of who's running the show.

We are. The Spanish legal eagles are doing the work, but none of it would be happening if our White House didn't want it to happen.

Typical Obama move - no drama, quiet, one small step, and it begins.

I'm ecstatic about this. Thrilled ................................

[tclambert]

66. You might be right, but the really dangerous precedent is we allow Presidents to be above the law.

"No one is above the law" was a foundation stone of America's ideals, . . . you know, prior to 1973. Then Gerald Ford gave Richard Nixon a blanket pardon. And Reagan successfully derailed the Iran-Contra investigations. And Clinton got away with semantic games. (I meant the "what do you mean by is?" crap, not the blue dress.) Now we expect all U.S. Presidents to act like they have immunity from the concept of law.

Hell, if we wanted an absolute monarch, why'd we fight the British?

I still have hope that down the road a little ways, Obama will give up on bi-partisanship as a lost cause since the other side refuses to play, and he gives Holder the green light to go after Bush and most especially, Mr. Dick, Cheney. (Did I put that comma in the right place?)

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ieoeja]

119. If you have a problem with "what the meaning of 'is' is" then you never heard the question.

The question had a combination of past and present wording. As worded it could have just as easily been referring to an ongoing affair as to a past affair. I happened to catch it live, and even before Clinton answered I was shouting at the TV that it was a trick question.

Clinton's response brought a big ole smile to my face.

But I don't ever recall hearing or reading that full question afterwards. All you ever heard was "depends on what the meaning of 'is' is" which sounds weaselly, but was actually a perfectly appropriate response.

[Bluenorthwest]

70. Cooperated is one heck of a word to use

When the Spanish officials say "They pressed to know whether any such investigation was pending. These inquiries met with no answer from the U.S. side."
They pressed and got no response. The Spanish are running the show, and cooperation is not expressed by refusing to answer a simple question.
The dangerous precedent is saying that the former Pres is above the law. That is dangerous to our Republic.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

128. Love It!!

There's ALOT happening since Jan 20 that would have never happened (and didn't) during the previous 8 year tragedy.

I seriously appreciate posts like these and others' who understand law and political protocol better than I do.

This is EXACTLY how it begins, and when you read about the meeting between the State Department folks and the Spanish lawyers and legislators, you realize exactly how much the Obama White House is behind this, which is exactly as it should be....Typical Obama move - no drama, quiet, one small step, and it begins.


:bounce: !!!!!!!!

[caseymoz]

111. By international treaty: the "Convention Against Torture" . . .

ratified by Congress and signed by no less than Ronald Reagan in 1987, all countries are required to have legislation against torture that follow the treaty's exact definitions and guidelines, which are very strict. Also, they are supposed to indict and arrest anyone suspected of torture within their jurisdiction. It isn't supposed to matter what country they are in when they committed the crime, according to the treaty. The US is required to follow it but hasn't, openly violating the Constitution, even in the face of the fact that the treaty stipulates that there will be no prosecutorial discretion to indict if there is evidence. I don't have time to give you the statute, but you can find the US statutes online and they are very accessible and organized. Bush and his gang have a lot to worry about, because if anyone dies during the torture committed, and people have, the Federal Statute gives the sentence of 25 years to life.

The wording of the treaty gives a comprehensive list of unacceptable rationalizations for torture, and the list reads like the exact excuses the Bush administration gave. Countries are supposed to follow that list.

Bush and gang violated the treaty and statute with impunity, unfortunately, Obama has as well, so far. The question is: why is are they still not in custody?

[Freddie Stubbs]

129. A Spanish court indicts them, and asks the US to extradite them

The United States will refuse to extradite them, and that will be the end of it.

[Zorra]

162. True dat. It's a damn shame that RW criminals in the U.S. can sanction/commit heinous crimes

and human rights violations with impunity.

I guess that is what happens when wealthy economic special interests become so powerful that they can infiltrate every branch of government to the point where the hired criminals of these special interests can torture anyone they please without fear of reprisal.

Sad, and pitiful.

[Tiggeroshii]

183. That's along the lines of what I would expect.

[rpannier]

201. The 6 of them will do like Kissinger has done for 30 years and never go anywhere that will extradite

them

Chances are they'll never leave the US at all

[StarryNite]

13. I'm afraid to become

too hopeful about this. I've been disappointed so many times during the bush administration. Keeping fingers and toes crossed on this one.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

14. I know .........

But, trust me. As an old DC lawyer, I'm wary of all kinds of things - like the Rove "secret indictment" and nonsense like that - but this one is solid and real, so it's safe to be happy. Honestly.

This is the real goods, and this is HUGH!!!1111!11

[onenote]

122. I'm an old DC lawyer too and as much as we all might want you to be right

my prediction is that this will turn out to be far short of the "real goods".

[Tangerine LaBamba]

131. Why do you think that?

And what do you think would be "the real goods"?

[onenote]

135. a variety of reasons

First, Garzon can make noise, but his ability to follow through is limited. His effort to go after Pinochet failed because he couldn't force extradition and he has had similar problems with other high profile cases he has started.

Second, he will get no support, publicly or privately from either the government of Spain or the US. That's a simple political reality.

As for what is the "real goods" -- well, it was your phrase, so it might be helpful for you to define it. But from my perspective, the real goods would be something more than an indictment coming from a judge in spain that its treated as -- and in reality turns out to be -- toothless.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

145. I agree that there will be no extradition -

that's just a given. I - and others - are noting the reality of a possible public naming of these thugs, an indictment, as close as we'll ever get to punishing them. I have no illusions about that.

As for the "simple political reality" that you cite without any backup, I disagree. You must know that this investigation/prosecution would never be going forth without the assent and cooperation of the United States. That's a very basic political reality. Spain is doing what we can't and won't do, and that is to shine the spotlight on these people, and make public, in the very best forum available, what they did, in contravention of established law.

Who doesn't want to see nailed the man who characterized the Geneva Convention as "quaint"?

The real good, and I'm sure you can understand this, is what the article states. That someone reputable and accomplished is taking over a repugnant and hitherto unpunished part of history.

As for toothless, well, that would be doing nothing. You want a lot, but I'm happy with whatever the political realities will permit ........

[onenote]

147. no extradition. no trial. nothing more than an indictment in a foreign land

I agree that the indictment is more than nothing, but to be honest I don't see it as much more. I think we're probably more in agreement than disagreement on that point. I would caution those reading this thread who think its going to lead to anything beyond a very minimal story and will have no real impact on the lives of those indicted that they are likely to be disappointed.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

150. That's obvious, I would hope ............

But, at least it's something. I don't know where it will go, but I am cheered that this is happening.

We're back to the Puritanical practice of public shaming....................

[JDPriestly]

176. Garzon's charges will have historical significance.

Garzon is providing an opportunity to prepare and safeguard a record on the events that occurred. That record will not be complete, but it will give future historians a starting point for their research.

Depending on what happens in the future in this country, it is also possible that the Justice Department under Obama or some future government will take action against those who participated in or approved, tacitly or vocally, the torture.

[mcjenn]

157. I remain optimistic

I think the govt. Will find a way to hand these thugs to Spain so we don't have to deal with them anymore.

[DebbieCDC]

156. I'm with you all the way on this Tangerine

20 years of working for lawyers and politicians in DC have made me VERY wary.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

178. Hey, Debbie -

from one Italian-American to another, here's a big HI from the environs of DC.

:hi:

Let's hope it takes, hmmmmm?

[onehandle]

15. Now just as soon as we hand them over to Spain...

...pigs will fly out of Karl Rove's ass.

[TankLV]

16. Of course, theREAL news is that there's just SIX of 'em...

[Tangerine LaBamba]

19. For starters ...........

It's a start, and, speaking just for myself, my fucking favorites are on this list: Gonzales, Yoo, Addington, Feith, Bybee, Haynes. They're the ones who made all this horror possible and did Cheney's bidding. Whores in the worst sense of the world. The reason people hate lawyers, and, as a member of that profession, I take their wrongdoing personally.

So, it is with a special kind of pleasure that I am watching their lives begin to turn into an ongoing horror show.

The stuff is NOT going away. Remember how long they maintained their pursuit of Pinochet? They've got patience, and, of course, so do I, knowing that, in the meantime, these fuckers are sweating their sorry asses off.

My old Italian grandmother used to say, "You spit up in the air, it lands in your face."

Nonna was right .........................

[norepubsin08]

31. Thank you

I whole heartedly agree...

[montanacowboy]

85. Tangerine!!!

my Italian grandmother said the same thing! I can't believe it that someone else was brought up with that saying.

Yes, let's hope spit falls in the faces of all the bastards

[Tangerine LaBamba]

88. PAISAN!

Did we not have smart grandmothers?

You're the second person I know who learned that saying growing up. Have you noticed that, the older you got, the more applicable it became?

This situation is a classic, I think ..

[Swagman]

101. Hey !....my Irish nanna use to say that as well !!

..the saying must have leapt a few countries !! :hi:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

106. Oh, that's funny .........

I didn't know how to say it in English until I was a teenager. Now I can't remember how to say it in Italian.

Those oldsters knew some neat things, eh?

[DavidDvorkin]

17. If any one of them is indicted

And somehow ends up in Spain on trial, the rightwing in the U.S. will scream more loudly than we've ever heard before.

The screaming might be fun, but I'm wondering how the public will react -- with agreement that justice should be done, or with rally-round-the-flag, bomb-'em-back-to-the-stone-age jingoism.

[Left Coast2020]

40. But you realize that there is no way in hell anyone of these freaks

is going to set foot anywhere deamed to be a venue for getting arrested. It is my hope enough countries can pressure the U.N to saction this indictment to where this country has no choice to avoid the obvious.

[No Elephants]

48. My prediction is that the right wing will scream about this as soon as it is sure that most of

America, including the RW low info base, knows about this. Otherwise, screaming about it might only bring it to the attention of those who are oblivious.

When they start screaming, though, the screaming will be both anti-Democrat and anti-international, just as it often is.


And?

Also, please see post #46.

[L. Coyote]

166. There is a total MSM blackout on this one! But, the story keeps building.

The release of the memos on Thurs. should propel this to the headlines world-wide.
With the facts known, then the lynching mob will really form, including from the right!

I've been following the story in Google News searches:
CIA Has 3,000 Docs on Torture Tapes
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5303329

And the usual cast of writers who were right about Reagan, Iran-Contra, etc., are on top of the facts.
Consortium News is the leading voice: http://www.consortiumnews.com/

[Tangerine LaBamba]

179. There's some arguing about releasing those memos -

the spooks are screaming "Foul!" and are opposing their release. The White House, so far, is going to release them. I hope they do.

There's some coverage of the Spanish actions here - and a helpful video, interview with Scott Horton:

http://rawstory.com/blog/2009/04/report-bush-officials-to-be-indicted-for-sanctioning-torture/

[theboss]

185. How can you indict someone without evidence?

And how can you get evidence without jurisdiction?

And how can you have jurisdiction when you are in fucking Spain?

What are the Spanish connections to this case? The fact that Cuba used to be a Spanish colony?

[Zhade]

205. Spanish citizens were tortured.

NT!

[Lint Head]

18. The world needs to rise up and take Bush's criminal gang down!

Our own government doesn't have the balls to do it.
:dem:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

20. It's not a matter of balls -

believe me, the US is behind this. Read about the meeting in Spain with American State Department people, and you'll understand that the American hand is guiding this. The Spanish government would never do this if the US didn't give them the nod.

There is danger in this kind of investigation taking place in our country - a bad precedent for a current administration to investigate the activities of any predecessor. Not good. So, it gets handed off to a friendly democracy with a excellent track record of going after war criminals - i.e., Pinochet.

Spain has a dog in this race, so they've got legitimate jurisdiction.

It's very exciting.......................

[DKRC]

21. I hope you're right about this

Like so many, I'm afraid to take it at face value & celebrate the first steps towards justice.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

22. I'm terminally cynical about these things,

but this is the real goods.

That it's being reported almost surreptitiously is a good thing, too. No-Drama Obama. Just doing it. I wonder if this is going to slip right past the rightwingnuts who are currently caught up in teabagging and berating Obama for the successful rescue of Captain Phillips.

This is gonna be fun. And, honestly - it's cause for celebration. It has begun ...................

[No Elephants]

46. An administration's investigating its predecessor would not be a bad precedent, but a good

one.

If you are sure that Obamadmin is behind this--and you are correct--then you will not be the only one who sees the connection.

In fact, even if you are not correct, the Pubs are going to be saying that the Democrats are behind Spain's actions in this. They have absolutely nothing to lose by saying that and might gain something, so they'll say it, no matter what.

So, one could say that this sets a bad precedent of an administration having a foreign nation do its dirty work against its predecessor.

The Republicans did not worry about setting a bad precedent for entrapping a President into perjuring himself about extra marital hanky panky, then impeaching him for it.

Pubs don't need any precedents. They just think up bad crap and do it, whether they have precedent for it or not. And they don't worry about what Democrats are going to do or say about it, either.

Democrats need to do more and stop worrying about what Pubs might do or say later. ESPECIALLY when international war crimes, violations of the Constitution of the United States are patently involved and only God knows what else might be involved.

[bdamomma]

82. well our Congress doesn't.

[iandhr]

23. I hate to rain on everyones party

but there is no way we are going to extradite. No American President of any party would. It sets a bad president.

Under these interpretation we could have tried EVERY PRESIDENT SINCE TRMAN on war crimes. INCLUDING JFK, LBJ, CARTER, AND CLINTON.

It will not happen

[Tangerine LaBamba]

26. I don't care ..........

I want the process to take place, and I want these men held up for all the world to see, so that their actions are made public and scrutinized carefully, judged and found criminal.

That's what I want. Anything else would be lovely, but I know it probably won't happen....................

[Prayingforrain48]

36. as we should!

This is not really an argument of your point, but some of us believe that JFK, LBJ, Carter, Bush I, and Clinton *should* have been tried for war crimes.

[No Elephants]

50. And?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

83. Thank goodness Nixon and Reagan missed your list.

I was worried for a second.

[liberation]

110. LOL, I was noticing that too...

The dynamic Bush duo are also feeling left out...

[Prayingforrain48]

118. hmm

I was simply using the list provided in the post that I was replying to. I don't think that JFK, LBJ, Carter, Bush I, and Clinton are the *only* presidents that should've been tried for war crimes.

[stubtoe]

143. ..

:rofl:

This thread is bringing some some interesting new posters out of the woodwork...

[Fedja]

43. it may not be needed

What if they suddenly pop up in some Portuguese summer resort without knowing how they got there? The locals wouldn't have any issues with delivering them to the court.

Rendition is a bitch, and there's so many lovely ways to get around the issue.

[yy4me]

59. Trial in absentia? Works for me. n/t

[tavalon]

62. It's too bad that along with citizen's arrest, we can't also have citizen's extradition

Now that would be an extraordinary rendition, methinks! Are we heading to Turkey or Syria today, nope, it's gonna be Spain! Woot!!!

[L. Coyote]

167. Actually, we do in a sense, thanks to Bush.

There have been judicial rulings in the US in support of kidnapping criminal suspects to render them for trial. Just ask Noriega!

I would have to do some research, but there is more to this angle. Anyone?

[fasttense]

91. It sets a bad President?? Great joke iandhr.

A Bad President vs a good President? Can you even set a President?

You sound just like a typical Republicon, spelling, grammar and all. I especially like how you drag in other US presidents, as if they went around admitting they tortured people like the bush and dick did.

Did you forget your sarcasm thingy?

[Lena inRI]

165. bwhahahahaha. . .you noticed same as I. . . .

. . .that freeper posts are riddled with errors. . . spelling, grammatical, and idiomatic. . .

for example, that post's subject title says, "I hate to rain on everyone's party". . .

isn't "parade" the correct idiomatic word?

Freeper gaps of knowledge. . .you can spot them easily.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[wundermaus]

24. Shame on the American People.

And thank God there is a community of nations that will hold us accountable.

[Ganja Ninja]

56. Exactly.

We should be doing this ourselves.

[tomp]

61. shame on those criminals and on barack obama. nt

[GoddessOfGuinness]

25. I had hoped our own courts would bring them to justice.

But I am deeply grateful for any government who has the guts to do it.

To whom should I address my thanks?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

27. President Obama........

This is all coming out of our White House. Spain would never do this unilaterally, but, since it would be inordinately stupid for any sitting administration to establish a precedent of investigating the actions of a previous administration, the work has been - oh, this is rich! - outsourced.

None of this would happen if the US didn't want it to. Read the part about the meeting in Spain between the US State Department folks and the Spanish legal officials.

That's how these things get done. Obama's made it happen, and it's a nice start............

[tomp]

63. it would be extraordinary but not stupid.

it is extraordinarily unpatriotic not to bring charges against criminals, especially when we have their confessions on national television.

you state that that's how these things get done but don't seem to understand that that is the problem. they don't get done.

[Stinky The Clown]

96. Tangerina ..... dahling .......

.... if you know it ...... then they know it. If our president's administration has even a hint of a hand in this, then it is pretty much the same as doing it right here in (Potomac) River City, no?

Don't get me wrong. I ***applaud*** them doing it. This is on my Bucket List. Right up there with the perfect pizza. (You know me. That's big!) I just don't see how they can keep their involvement - if it is there - secret. And that leads me to "why not do it here?"

[Tangerine LaBamba]

146. Knowing how it works is one thing;

finding the fingerprints and proving it is another.

See?

[theboss]

187. Except it doesn't work...

Do you think this stupid indictment actually means anything?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

196. Yes, I do,

the same way I thought their indictment of Pinochet meant something. The same way I think the trials at Nuremberg meant something.

I am in favor of justice going as far forward as it can go when wrongdoing is alleged.

[theboss]

186. That is most insanely stupid thing ever printed here

Which is saying a lot.

No president is going to allow another president to be tried in absentia in a kangaroo court in some other goddamn country.

There is this little thing called...what's the word???...shit....it's right here.....

Oh yea.

Sovereignty.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

217. Really?

I WON??????????

So which was it - insane or stupid?

Or BOTH???????????

I WON!!!!! I WON!!!!!!

TANGERINE!! TANGERINE!!! TANGERINE!!!!

Now, tell this ignoramus - because, according to you, what I wrote is "insanely stupid" - exactly how you see the concept of what you call "sovereignty" would preclude any kind of prosecution of a President "... in a kangaroo court in some other goddamn country," would you, please?

I can tell that you're well-versed in the vagaries of International Law and Treaties. That's obvious, from your post.

(You did mean "former President," didn't you? Because I don't see how anyone is talking here about prosecuting President Obama.)

But, then, what do I know? Nothing. I know nothing, according to "theboss."

I stupidly and insanely await your divine enlightening of this benighted and befuddled soul, such as I am. And I thank you in advance for explaining these abstruse and arcane concepts, the stuff you apparently know so well.

Give it to me, theboss, big and strong and tough. I can take it................................

[Duer 157099]

28. Oh, I can't remember which one, but who was it that thought Spain was in South America?

Remember? Was it Palin? Bush? I just cannot place it, but it was someone who really really should have known better.

I think this is payback for that.

Well, and the torture, of course.

[Joe Bacon]

29. Oh it was John Mc Cain

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marisa-trevi/spains-media-in-uproar-ov_b_127451.html

[Duer 157099]

39. Yeah, that's right!

I can't help but feel that even if just a teeny weeny bit, this has something to do with that.

Just a little. The proverbial straw.

[New Dawn]

30. K&R

[AllyCat]

32. OMG, is this real???? Sweet Jesus let it be true.

[aquart]

33. Buy something Spanish!

[pam4water]

53. OK but don't make it food or medicine. Spain has a lot of good things going for it but one

bad thing is they take stiff made in China slap a made in Spain label on it and send it one to the USA. I know the FDA isn't just much in the USA but the Chinese equivalent is doing even less on exports.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_cough_syrup
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/03/AR2008100301258.html

[liberation]

113. Maybe a remedial Geography class is in order for you?

Panama it is not Spain, heck... both countries aren't in the same continent. They speak Spanish though. In fact, none of the links you posted mention anything of what you just talked about regarding Spain.

From the WaPo article you linked:

"While other countries throughout the world, including the European Union, are acting to ban melamine-contaminated products from China, the FDA has chosen to establish an acceptable level for melamine in food in an attempt to convince consumers that it is not harmful"

Spain is part of the EU. If anything, they are the ones wary of American products so dependent on Chinese subcontractors.

[BrklynLiberal]

174. and doesn't Panama owe much of the credit for its existence to the US?

[pam4water]

190. Irrelevant and read post 188.

[pam4water]

188. Learn to read if you do you'll see the words Spanish Middleman

"The imported ethylene glycol is from a Chinese manufacturer,under the name TD glycerine which means glycerine substitute, but after dealing from Spanish middleman in filling the customs declaration in Panama, the name was changed to glycerine."


Quote from the wiki page. Go look through the page history to see that I did not change it, if you can find it. Or get who ever looks after you to read it to at bed time. When they read it you will see that it was re-labeled in Spain. The second article was just a heads up in how much melamine has ended up in the Chinese food chain. I was conserved with getting the word out on food import because of the health hazards. You give this retarded freeper-est response. Well eat anything because you are too stupid to live anyways.

New York Ti ems article also. But it will be above you head too.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/06/world/americas/06poison.html

[liberation]

199. Funny your private message to me was full of expletives...

So first off, let me ask to gracefully f*ck off you dolt.

With that out of the way. Basically your article referred to a Spanish man who imported the medicine from China into Panama. Where are Spanish health authorities involved in all this? Nowhere, you dumbass... just because the guy was born in Spain and committed a crime, that is f*cking far from being an indictment on the quality of Spanish medicines and food. I fail to see how a sane person would characterize the products of a whole country, because some douchebag was born in that country and made dealings somewhere else.


So let me expand my original advice: Remedial geography AND reading and comprehension classes may be in order for you.

[sce56]

34. Oh pinch me better yet shoot me in the face! I can't belive I'm seeing this Please! Please! Please!

[jmowreader]

64. Quit comparing Bush to Hitler

Hitler was a better dancer than Bush, he was a better dresser than Bush. He had more hair. He told funnier jokes. And he was not quite as evil as Bush, though it was close.

Hitler also ENDED a depression instead of getting his country into one, and he spent money on infrastructure unlike the Chimpenfuhrer.

It's bad when you're so lousy of a president you've rehabilitated Nixon. It's worse when you're starting to rehabilitate Hitler.

[The Wizard]

95. There's our Hitler

Hitler, now there was a painter. He could paint an entire apartment in one afternoon-----two coats.

[sce56]

210. I compare him do to his family links to Hitler

Prescott Bush was in business with the Nazis his bank was shut down by the Feds in 1942 under the trading with the enemies act! The Bush family helped bankroll Hitler and later made a handsome profit off the concentration camp slave labor! Hell Prescott tried unsuccessfully to overthrow FDR since the People that really run this country did not like Social Security and the rest of the "New Deal"! Don't believe me then look it up the BBC did a expose documentary on it just google Prescott bush and Smedley Butler you will see the story there.

[conspirator]

219. you forgot: hitler could write a book nt

[Oak2004]

35. Oh happy day!

It's time to seek justice for their many victims.

[billyoc]

38. Have the Spaniards offered any reward for their capture yet?

Inquiring unemployed veterans want to know...

[bottomtheweaver]

42. An all-expense paid vacation in Havana.

[billyoc]

44. Nice scenery, any work down there?

;)

[Jack Rabbit]

47. What should the Obama administration do?

I say, assist in the apprehension of the bastards,

[Solly Mack]

49. It's a start

K&R

[democrank]

51. Hold every last one of them accountable.

I hope Cheney and Junior are starting to sweat.

[pam4water]

52. Now we just need some extraordinary rendition to get them to Spain.

[barbtries]

54. can't wait to see it

on the evening news?

[tavalon]

65. That would be interesting

but it won't happen.

[SlingBlade]

55. K & R

[yy4me]

57. If we can't seem to do it, I thank the people of Spain. Once the

dirty facts get out there, I hope sparks will fly and one certain VP and his puppet president will face the music. This group of 5 are underlings and will, I'm sure, start spilling the beans to save their hides. Lets hope!

[flyboyscot68]

58. BRAVO,,,BRAVO,,,,

Thank you very much for doing something we SHOULD be doing. We are not able to break trough the vail of tyranny that hangs over the USA. It's nice to know there are honest people out there somewhere. Just wish we had more than two or three in Washington D.C. . Bravo,,,,

[Dinger]

67. Why Only 81 Recs?

Is DU asleep? C'mon!

'bout time for a * family trip to Spain, dontcha think?

[City Lights]

68. K&R!

Great news!

[Vinca]

69. Are there any countries that might scoop these people up for Spain?

[nc4bo]

71. Oh sweet baby jeezus let it be so. KICK/REC!!! nt

[zeemike]

72. Three cheers for Spain

And the Tangerine LaBamba that posted this.
If I knew how to dance the La Bamba I would do it right now.

[Ian David]

73. Is The Daily Beast a credible source? n/t

[NorthCarolina]

74. K&R #99

eom

[swilton]

75. Better Late than Never on the Rec as Well as the Arrest!

:applause: I don't have anything as eloquent to say as the rest of you other than - Bring on the trials and throw them all in prison....I'll be holding my breath for more indictments!:woohoo:

[Doctor_J]

76. Hopefully most of the world will follow suit

it would be nice to know that the entire * cabal is tied down by a Virtual Ankle Monitor restricting them to the US

[keepthemhonest]

77. why not Bush /Cheney? NT

[nc4bo]

79. Dig the dirt out of the Oompa Loompas and maybe

just maybe Spain will follow the leads, straight up the chain of command.

I'm sure there will be many revelations.

[keepthemhonest]

114. I am thinking

that while all nations want to prosecute they are chicken,including us.

I personally would love it!

[Lochloosa]

78. Proud to be the 101st Rec.

[bdamomma]

80. good.

if they ever get thoughts of stepping foot out of the US they may be picked up for War Crimes. Ha, they are prisoners in their own country.

[BartMang]

84. Very Nice.

Let there be justice.

[unpossibles]

86. interesting! K&R

[PRevere]

87. But What About The Big Gorillas In The Room?

By conspicuous omission, the main issue remains: When and how will Bush, Cheney, Rice and Rumsfeld be brought to justice?

By indicting the underlings who simply facilitated the crimes, an 800 pound Gorilla is still stinking up the room. And the urgent need to deal with it screams ever louder.

What we have now is tantamount to the indictment of ONLY the minions who carried out Pinochet's dirty work. The Spanish Courts certainly were having none of that. Why would they shirk their obvious and clear mandate when it comes to War Crimes ordered by The Gang Of Four?

Since we've lost our authority and it seems Obama has no intention of reclaiming it and giving us "real change we can believe in", when the indictments come down, I advocate establishing a fund to pay a bounty for the delivery of the war criminals to those who are willing to exercise some real authority: Spanish Law Enforcement.

[Lena inRI]

151. You mean big stinking Elephant, not Gorilla. . . .

. . .as in GOP elephant mascot. . .

couldn't resist the synchronism of that P U N !



:smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke: :smoke:

[Jefferson23]

89. This part here, for me, was a huge WOW:

" They pressed to know whether any such investigation was pending. These inquiries met with no answer from the U.S. side.

Spanish officials are highly conscious of the political context of the case and have measured the Obama administration’s low-key reaction attentively."

Let Obama test the waters and let Spain do the dirty work, it will be very interesting to see how Obama plays this long distance legal/political chess game.

I would prefer to see a SP here doing what should have been done years ago under Pelosi, but if this is all we get as a start, I'll gladly take it.


So who wouldn't want to be a fly on the wall in the homes of the Bush six this morning? LOL

[azul]

130. The gorillas in the room are the evidence that this cannot be fairly tried in the US.

That we're under the thrall and threat of desperate criminals in the US and cannot stand up for our rights in fear of our lives:

-------

Madison, WI (OpEdNews) April 12, 2009 --The stunning revelation from our nation’s premiere investigative reporter, Seymour Hersh, that Vice President Dick Cheney was running an “executive assassination ring” directly under his control and outside of the normal chain of command has raised the specter that the Vice President of the United States may have been murdering Americans.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x440571

[lisa58]

90. Wow!

[customerserviceguy]

92. I wonder if those who think this is a great idea

will be as enthusiastic about it when Islamic courts overseas hold trials in absentia of those charged with violations of Sharia law.

If Americans are guilty of crimes, let them be charged, tried, and convicted by American courts, where we have a system of law that even is fair to Ted Stevens. I wouldn't go to Spain (or any other country with what I'd consider a deficient justice system) to subject myself to the whims of their courts, I wouldn't subject any American to those whims who stayed away from those places.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

105. Again,

that will never happen in this country. No sitting American President is going to participate in an investigation within this country of what any of his predecessors did. That would create an untenable precedent.

That's why it's being conducted under the auspices of Universal Law, a perfectly appropriate setting for what has been alleged.

As for the Islamic courts holding those trials of which you speak, yes, that is possible. So what?

[liberation]

107. Dear Madam/Sir, we're conducting a study on concern trolling and we have a couple of questions....

mainly regarding wether concern troll positions are salary based, or if you guys get paid by the post.


PS. If your message was in a key of humor, disregard the participation in our study. But I will remind you that the world is not quite ready yet for your brand of sarcasm.


Cheers.

[customerserviceguy]

207. Then explain for me

the criteria by which foreign courts have jurisdiction over American citizens who remain in America. You don't have to be a troll to make the point that Spanish courts really have no more jurisdiction over American citizens than Iranian Sharia courts have.

[NYC Liberal]

115. LOL! Our courts are "fair" because a rich upper-class Senator got off the hook?

"the whims of their courts"? As if the "whims" of our courts are any better?

[customerserviceguy]

208. I see you disagree with the rectification

of the miscarriage of justice that even a decent Attorney General saw fit to right. It doesn't just happen when DNA evidence exonerates little people erroneously convicted of heinous crimes.

My point is, the maxim that it is better that a hundred guilty men go free than to see one innocent man imprisoned is found nowhere in the world better than in the United States.

[NYC Liberal]

209. You compared it to Islamic courts holding "trials in absentia"

for violations of Sharia law. Which was ridiculous. What Alberto Gonzales et al. did are crimes under Last time I checked, Sharia law is not international law. Torture is. War crimes are. Crimes against humanity are.

My point is, the maxim that it is better that a hundred guilty men go free than to see one innocent man imprisoned is found nowhere in the world better than in the United States.

That's really funny. "owhere in the world better than in the United States" - really? Take a look at all of the innocent people executed in this country. Or the innocent people who WERE imprisoned.

If it was true that "better that a hundred guilty men go free than to see one innocent man imprisoned" is truer nowhere else than the U.S., than politicians could run and win on it.
But try it. I guarantee you if any politician -- or judge in this country came out and said that, the outcry would be deafening.

"Better a hundred innocent poor people imprisoned, than a guilty rich man imprisoned." -- That's our maxim.

[L. Coyote]

170. If we had a fair system, Ted Stevens would go to jail for life after conviction

and not have his case dismissed for misconduct. In a fair system, the government does not sabotage it's own prosecutions of powerful political figures.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

181. It wasn't about "fair," although Holder

did the right thing when the prosecutorial misconduct - which was really, really egregious - was discovered.

This one was about doing the right thing. Stevens threw the Feds off their game when he demanded a speedy trial - they were caught unprepared, and they cheated and got caught.

Unthinkable.

[L. Coyote]

192. Or, they took a fall for Uncle Teddy!

I would not be too hasty to assign anything except felonious to the conduct.
Unprepared and cheated may be what you are supposed to think in order that Uncle Teddy gets off.

It is not over yet!! Now there is another criminal inquiry.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

195. No, it's over ..........

The inquiry is into the prosecutor's office - they're badly understaffed, don't have the resources they used to have, thanks to budget cuts at Justice made by Chimpy Fucknuts, and their competence is questionable. There's a very good article about it in Sunday's Washington Post.

You can read it here: http://tinyurl.com/dxoclf

The inquiry now undertaken at Justice isn't criminal. Who told you that? It's purely administrative at this point, information-gathering.

As for Stevens, he's whole again. Double jeopardy has attached. He's free and clear, and that is final.

[onenote]

197. no,there is a criminal investigation as well --ordered by the judge

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gZXmpL3-GlWbhbGKemFmCm_bPPmQD97DNB4O1

[Tangerine LaBamba]

200. Whoa!!! I missed that!

That's heavy stuff. I didn't see that - how did I miss that?

Well, there are going to be some headlines and resignations coming out of DOJ. Trials? Disbarring? Man, this is dangerous.

Thanks for enlightening me on this...............

[onenote]

198. not likely

If the prosecutors goal was to throw this cawe, there are a dozen ways from sunday they could've done so (it was a jury trial) after all) without doing so in a way that would put their own careers in total jeopardy.

[onehandle]

93. Why the Hell is everyone so wound up about this?

They would never be extradited. They will never be prosecuted by a foreign country.

It might as well be the court of Munchkinland.

If anything, it reduces the possibility of them being prosecuted over here, in the only country where it could ever happen.

[AllyCat]

216. Because...these jerks can never leave the country without risk of extradition

They can go to Aruba for a nice vacation. Spain finds out they are there on R & R...asks the gov't of Aruba for permission to extradite. Aruba says yes...bye bye Gonzales 6.

I'm not keen on them being here either, but at least they can't really ever leave.

[Stinky The Clown]

94. Hey Ms. LaBamaba .......

I was VERY skeptical the last time such nooz was reported.

The Daily Beast?

I trust you on this ..... so reassure me ...... this is real this time??

No Jason Leopold involved?

No "cops are in his lawyer's office where he will be arrested"?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

103. No, it's going along as I expected ....

Quietly, no fanfare, no big publicity - have you seen this reported anywhere else? It's big news in a legal sense, but, really, it's only an announcement, essentially the Spaniards taking jurisdiction and giving notice that they're not fooling around.

No Jason Leopold. Horton's a straight shooter.

And, keep this in mind - where do you think the Spanish legal eagles will be getting the evidence they're going to need in order to carry on their investigations? Where they've been getting it so far?

That's right - from the White House. Our White House.

It's small, it's quiet, it's not the kind of news that the MSM can grab and chew because they don't understand the implications of this, but, honestly, it looks like the real deal to me. No joke .....................

[azul]

125. Philippe Sands did much of the evidence gathering for these charges,

and when he went before congress and testified, and they did nothing, that was evidence that this would have to be tried in another country.

English lawyer, Spanish trail, American legal failure.

------------

The Green Light

As the first anniversary of 9/11 approached, and a prized Guantánamo detainee wouldn’t talk, the Bush administration’s highest-ranking lawyers argued for extreme interrogation techniques, circumventing international law, the Geneva Conventions, and the army’s own Field Manual. The attorneys would even fly to Guantánamo to ratchet up the pressure—then blame abuses on the military. Philippe Sands follows the torture trail, and holds out the possibility of war crimes charges.

by Philippe Sands May 2008

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/05/guantanamo200805

And see his book Torture Team for more.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

134. Yes, Sands is an impressive and persuasive figure

who did all he could to get people to pay attention. He's the real hero in all of this, I believe. He should be awarded a Nobel, seriously.

But, the actual documents that would be required as evidence would have to come from the US government. Sands recorded what they said and what was done, but the real paper is what matters and that requires the cooperation of the United States. Which seems to be readily forthcoming.

Interesting, again, that the Europeans are leading on this, but at least we're cooperating, and that's good enough for me.

[L. Coyote]

172. VIDEOS: Philippe Sands testimony to House "war crimes were committed"

Philippe Sands: Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules "war crimes were committed"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3275649

[L. Coyote]

177. VIDEO Philippe Sands: Beyond the Torture Debate = 91:42

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x130428
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V2XCkGjP5g

Deja DU: Philippe Sands's Torture Team exposes the American CONSPIRACY to tear up the Geneva Convention
seemslikeadream - May-10-08 - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3268562

[Swagman]

98. viva Espana !

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[florida08]

116. this is the real deal here

but it will be slow and methodical which is good. This is from the Guardian on March 28 when it first broke. They are serious unlike our political system here they protect their laws. Will be interesting to see how the MSM handles this. I have a feeling the new administration will be tested on this..they would be wise to let this take it's course. No one will be extradited I'm sure, but they will still have to have lawyers appear on their behalf if they don't want to be held in the world opinion as criminals and if they're found guilty and the Obama administration does nothing to facilitate justice it will be a mark against them as well.


Gonzalo Boyé, one of the four lawyers who wrote the lawsuit, said the prosecutor would have little choice under Spanish law but to approve the prosecution.

Boyé predicted that Garzón(the terrorism judge who prosecuted Pinochet) would issue subpoenas in the next two weeks, summoning the six former officials to present evidence: "If I were them, I would search for a good lawyer."......

Philippe Sands, whose book Torture Team first made the case against the Bush lawyers and which Boyé said was instrumental in formulating the Spanish case, said yesterday: "What this does is force the Obama administration to come to terms with the fact that torture has happened and to decide, sooner rather than later, whether it is going to criminally investigate. If it decides not to investigate, then inevitably the Garzón investigation, and no doubt many others, will be given the green light."

Legal observers say the Spanish lawsuit has a better chance of ending in charges. The high court, on which Garzón sits, has more leeway than the German prosecutor to seek "universal jurisdiction"......

Another key document cited in the Spanish case is a November 2002 "action memo" written by Haynes, in which he recommends that Rumsfeld give "blanket approval" to 15 forms of aggressive interrogation, including stress positions, isolation, hooding, 20-hour interrogations and nudity. Rumsfeld approved the document.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/29/guantanamo-bay-torture-inquiry

[ThatsMyBarack]

117. I could break into song....

The Hiiiils are Aliiiiive, with the Sound of Muuuusiiiiic....

(I watched it for the umpteenth time Easter weekend. I LOOOOVE that film! :loveya:)

[Towlie]

120. If McCain was president he'd be complaining about "the nerve of those South American countries".

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=McCain+Zapatero&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

[tekisui]

123. knr!~

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberation]

132. Obviously reading and comprehension is not the forte of the common freeper?

Here is the definition of the term "torture" according to Webster's:

1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony b: something that causes agony or pain
2: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

That sounds like "cruel and unusual punishment" to me. Maybe you should stop watching 24? It seems you can't distinguish between fiction and reality. Alas, I find it amusing that you guys are now using the "depends of what the term is is" defense, I thought you people hated Clinton.

LOL.

[Raster]

133. You are out of line and also out ot step with most of the United States.

TORTURE IS WRONG!

[PRevere]

136. Uh Huh... Sorry... But You're Just Part Of The Problem - Sicko

This is the usual one dimensional, misguided mentality of your typical right-wing degenerate psychopath: One standard for us, another for everybody else.

Indeed, this is the mind set that has brought us all to this very sorry state of affairs in the first place. It's just fine when the US meddles in every other nation's business and tells them how to conduct their affairs..often at the point of a bayonet. But, let the roles be reversed, and these phony "conservative" knuckle-dragging cretins start whining like stuck pigs.

What if one of your "loved ones" were suspected of having some critical intelligence that the prosecutor wanted? Would you support their torture as well? Huh???

Is it OK with you if we shock or beat it out of em..eh? ...Even if they have to make it up as they go along just to get the agony to stop?

That might be an effective technique .. but only for a twisted sicko who really doesn't care about protecting American citizens or anybody else.

Now, go back to your Freeper circle jerk.

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[liberation]

168. Wow there buckoo "Typical far left liberal statist" what a mouth full!

Before you start hurling insults, at least take the time to make sure those insults even make sense.

Funny, the USA managed to fight 2 world wars sans state-sponsored torture, and freepers like you are flipping out because you don't get to act on your sadistic instincts? Life is not an episode of 24, deal with it.

[Name removed]

214. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gregorian]

138. Torture is not defense.

[redqueen]

140. Are you insane? You do realize we've prosecuted soldiers for war crimes

for torturing our sodliers, right?

[TechBear_Seattle]

126. Finally! A Spanish Inquisition I can believe in! n/t

[Loki]

163. The first one tortured it's victims.....

the second prosecutes the torturers. Let the trials begin.

[L. Coyote]

175. One that won't reduce us to a one page list of individually censored books again. Whew!

The Spanish need to work on their American karma, but it won't bring back the Mayan books!

[muriel_volestrangler]

137. CNN: 'Decision not expected for several days'; AP 'likely this week'

Garzon accepted the complaint under Spanish law because there were several Spaniards at Guantanamo who allegedly suffered torture.

But Garzon sent the matter on to prosecutors at Spain's anti-terrorism National Court, requesting their opinion on whether a crime had been committed.

A prosecution source at the court, speaking on condition of anonymity, told CNN on Tuesday that an opinion from prosecutors offfice was not expected "for several days."

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/04/14/gonzales.spain.gitmo/

Spanish prosecutors will likely decide this week whether to recommend a full investigation into allegations that six Bush Administration officials sanctioned torture of terror suspects at Guantanamo Bay, an official in the prosecutor's office said Tuesday.

The decision would put the case back in the hands of an investigative judge on Spain's National Court. The judge would not be bound by the prosecutor's recommendation, however.

"We are expecting the decision this week," said the prosecutor's office official, who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity in line with department rules. The National Court said it had no information on when the recommendation might come.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gw5KhIf6dRlptgQeY7ytP_39edTQD97I9JOO0

Just in case you were holding your breath ...

[Gregorian]

139. Rumsfeld is already indicted in Germany.

I just want to add that here, in case people have forgotten.

[npk]

141. Thank you Spain

At least it is good to know that some country still has standards. Because obviously the USA does not.

[bobthedrummer]

142. K&R 151

[Zachy31]

144. The six better not travel anywhere

Or they'll be in for a big surprise.

[Deep13]

148. Do I have to go through Ticketmaster for this event...

..or can I get tickets directly from the Spanish embassy? I hope there are some good seats left.

[stubtoe]

149. Thanks Tangerine!

:applause:

[SlowDownFast]

153. Whoopty Doo.

Doesn't do shit.

They'll all live happily ever after RIGHT HERE IN THE US on their taxpayer funded pensions.

Just means that OUR OWN CITIZENS AND REPS HERE IN THE US are too lazy, apathetic, dumbed down and bought off to do the job OURSELVES.

America is already gone.

[DebbieCDC]

154. Finally some measure of justice SOMEWHERE

This country should hang its head in shame that someone else has to wash our dirty laundry for us

[lenegal]

155. Hell Yeah!!!

About time

[lovuian]

158. it all foes back to their attempt to take over Spain

and they failed

I think Spain knows who the terrorists are really

[enid602]

159. inquisition

Is Torquemada still around? He´d be good for the task.

[azul]

173. oy vey, the ironies.

There is a reason why torture is outlawed internationally: it is a power-madness degenerate abomination that is intolerable in civilized human community.

To find torture advocates in the 21st century, openly operating without consequence, is indicative of civilization reversing itself and/or madness.

Is the goal or purpose of human life to help one another in our struggles, or inflict suffering? Are we honorable and respectful people, or some form of deranged devils? The path before us beckons, to beauty and balance, or to something ugly and cruel, IMHO.

[W T F]

160. Nooooobody expects The Spanish Inquisition

[L. Coyote]

161. Error: You've already recommended that thread.

[Blaze Diem]

169. K & R for the 165th Time Already !!!

(or is it 164, sheesh I can't keep up)
Spain will hold a place of global honor if they successfully carry this through to the ever lovin end.

[BrklynLiberal]

171. Hooray and Hallelujah!!!! K&R #165

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up3TIPoVh-M&feature=related

[winyanstaz]

182. so there is justice someplace on this planet after all :)

[theboss]

184. And obviously they have great access to, you know, witnesses and evidence and shit

There is a reason that jurisdiction is important.

How the fuck are these people going to subpoena anything?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

218. Well, uh, you're theboss,

and you've already characterized something I wrote here as "insanely stupid," so I would defer to your great expertise and ask you to enlighten this thread on the finer points of how a Spanish investigation works.

In your lifetime study of International Law, did you ever encounter things called - oh, shit, what's the word? - oh, right, I got it:

treaties?

You must know a whole lot about this stuff. I can tell because you spelled "subpoena" correctly. That's incredible, that you can do that.

So, why is it, theboss, that the Spanish courts would undertake such a project without any access at all to anything? Can you explain this, or do those people of the - how did you put it? - "kangaroo court in some goddamned country" know something that - oh, this cannot be - you don't?

Please, theboss, please elucidate and give us all the benefit of your studies and experience.

This is so exciting, the unveiling of your expertise...........................

[Wapsie B]

189. I'm waiting for: "The Bush Six to be hanged."

Ahhhhhhhhh one can only dream.

[Vidar]

191. Bravo Spain! Shame on the US.

[flyarm]

193. AND HOW ABOUT habeas corpus NOW?????????????

THIS HAS ME TERRIBLY UPSET.. and it should have everyone upset..and if it doesn't then I question everyone's judgement!

Seems some things never change..too bad we need Spain or other countries to lead the way in obeying laws and treaties!!!!!!

Thank you Spain..but it is not enough!!

Obama the candidate:

September 2008


Obama on the need for habeas corpus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl3RPSw_450&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Enoquarterusa%2Enet%2Fblog%2F&feature=player_embedded

Barack Obama - the Habeas Debate Sept 27 2006

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BIylNUkmvo&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Enoquarterusa%2Enet%2Fblog%2F2009%2F04%2F14%2Fahforget%2Dabout%2Dall%2Dthat%2Dhabeas%2Dcorpus%2Dcrap%2F&feature=player_embedded

Obama on torture, detainees and enemy rights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjDaeyUdpJY

NOW TODAY?????????????

Obama to Appeal Detainee Ruling

By THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: April 10, 2009
WASHINGTON — The Obama administration said Friday that it would appeal a district court ruling that granted some military prisoners in Afghanistan the right to file lawsuits seeking their release. The decision signaled that the administration was not backing down in its effort to maintain the power to imprison terrorism suspects for extended periods without judicial oversight.

In a court filing, the Justice Department also asked District Judge John D. Bates not to proceed with the habeas-corpus cases of three detainees at Bagram Air Base outside Kabul, Afghanistan. Judge Bates ruled last week that the three — each of whom says he was seized outside of Afghanistan — could challenge their detention in court.

Tina Foster, the executive director of the International Justice Network, which is representing the detainees, condemned the decision in a statement.

“Though he has made many promises regarding the need for our country to rejoin the world community of nations, by filing this appeal, President Obama has taken on the defense of one of the Bush administration’s unlawful policies founded on nothing more than the idea that might makes right,” she said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/11/world/asia/11bagram.html?_r=5&partner=msnbcpolitics&emc=rss

A version of this article appeared in print on April 11, 2009, on page A6 of the New York edition.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

202. I share your outrage

One event has nothing to do with the other - the action in Spain v. what the Obama administration is doing vis-a-vis habeas corpus, an appalling lapse on their part.

This is devastating, and I'm sorry that it's not getting more publicity. Just like when Chimpy pulled habeas corpus out of existence - or tried to. Keith Olbermann is making an issue of it - he briefly mentioned it tonight - but where is the outrage? Why aren't people screaming about this?

Ah, yes, teabagging. Much more important...........

[wildbilln864]

194. Excellent! k&r! nt

[McCamy Taylor]

203. I hope Franco is rolling in his grave.

[Zhade]

204. FINALLY!

NT!

[totodeinhere]

206. Why just those six? Why not go after the big fish (Bush and Cheney?)

I'm all for this as far as it goes, but why not take it all the way to the top?

[panzerfaust]

211. Sadly, not by 'Mericans

They should be held to account by OUR government.

[sarcasmo]

212. Kick since it's to late to rec.

[Joe Bacon]

213. I'll believe it when I see it.

Republicans have been above the law since Ford pardoned Nixon. Every time the Nazi Republic Party breaks the law--Contra cocaine, Iran-Contra, stealing the Presidency and trashing the Bill of Rights they get away with it. I don't expect them to ever face justice.

[Supersedeas]

215. Wonder what the State Dept under Sec Clinton thinks about this?