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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:22 AM
Original message
Castro: Obama should now end ‘cruel’ embargo
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 07:32 AM by cal04
Source: Associated Press

Cuba’s ex-president says U.S. didn’t go far enough in softening sanctions
Former Cuban President Fidel Castro says the United States did not go far enough in announcing plans to soften sanctions against his country, and he insists that real change in bilateral relations will come only when Washington lifts its "cruel" trade embargo.

President Barack Obama announced Monday that Americans will now be able to make unlimited transfers of money and visits to relatives in Cuba. Under the Bush administration rules, Cuban-Americans were eligible to travel here only every three years and send up to $300 to relatives every three months.

Monday's action eliminated those limits in the hope that less dependence on their government will lead Cubans to demand progress on political freedoms.

Castro responded in a column published Monday on the Web site of Granma, the official newspaper of the Cuban Communist Party. The former president wrote that in announcing the easing of restrictions "not a word was said about the blockade, which is the cruelest of measures."

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30205692/



Reflections by comrade Fidel: Not a word about the blockade
http://www.radionuevitas.co.cu/web_english/news/cuba_140409_1.asp
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Thrill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. What is he willing to give up? This is why nothing gets done
release the political prisoners. And allow Cubans to vote for their leader!!
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. IMO, that's not our business.
That's for the people of Cuba to work out.

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Thrill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. See I disagree. I see no reason for the US to do more until he stops
treating his people like shit.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Umm, are you aware that Fidel Castro is no longer in office?
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 07:48 AM by Mika
If you are going to post here, it would help to know what you are talking about.


It takes some seriously twisted pretzel logic to insist that Cuba's social system (world class universal health care and education) is forced upon Cubans. It is they who build it in concert with their government - something that Americans haven't been able to do.


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Thrill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
37. Oh please. I know his brother Raul is in charge but get real
Fidel is still very much involved.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #11
44. It's an amazing leap considering what the stats were in 1959.
So much had to be corrected, overcome, redone from the ground up. It's no wonder the World Bank President felt he had to praise their accomplishments in spite of himself.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #11
65. Only post here if you know what you are talking about?
Now that would be interesting. It certainly would reduce the number of posts here at DU.
I would also add not posting personal opinions as if they are some immutable law of the universe.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. Mika most clearly knows what he's talking about. n/t
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #68
71. I am sure that is true, but many others do not,
and post as if their words come from the mouth of God or god or gods or whatever.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. Well for all these years "his" people loved the shit out of him.
End the fucking embargo, you are only hurting the people of Cuba by continuing it. This is Cold war shit began over 40 yrs ago. Let it fucking go, for Christs sake. Who knows, it might be a new capitalist venture enterprise for you to make some money on.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. You should spend some time learning about the subject. Idle right-wing bs is NOT reality based.
It's not going to kill you doing your homework, and some serious thinking about this, if you can manage it.
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Thrill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
40. Oh thats bullshit. I like how some of you piss and moan about torture and Gitmo
but have no fucking problem with people being locked up for simply speaking their mind
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. And who might that be?
Who are these people you claim are locked up for "simply speaking their mind"?

Do tell.

(Waiting for the ever constant Miami based RW Cubanet reports reprinted verbatim by AI, HRW, and RSF, since none of the big 3 actually have their own people in Cuba.)



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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #40
47. Why don't you spend more time doing honest reseach? If you're concerned about the truth,
why not take time away from your posting, and use some of it for your education, instead?

You'd have the peace of mind that comes only with knowing what you're saying is true, and you can provide the references.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #47
63. I'll help him out...
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
38. well why do we have such high standards for Cuba and no place else?
it's bullshit.

"limited travel" - so only if you're cuban?

I'm sick of the put upon American Cubans who are starving an entire country over a grudge. If I were to keep the same grudge Germany would be begging for bread from their poor Italian neighbors and cleaning toilets in Slovakia.

We're such stupid myopic children.

If you want communism GONE from Cuba, indoctrinate them to capitalism, and tell the elian shit heads to just shut the fuck up for a change.

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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #38
46. Also amazing is how content Americans seem to be to be relegated to 2nd class citizens.
Cuban-Americans and Cuban resident aliens are now enfranchised with their full travel rights.

While the 99.7% of the rest of us are relegated to 2nd class citizens/residents - still travel banned by our own government.


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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
62. That's idiotic...
Are you aware that Fidel Castro is dead. No sense arguing with a dead man.
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
66. Does your position apply only to Cuba...?
Does your position apply only to Cuba, or to any and all trading partners we currently do business with that treat their people "like shit?"
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
108. The let them work it out. Just don't expect for us to trade with them until they do
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Small island economies are different that say a China, U.S. or Russian
economy. To put it in as few as words as possible, we should mind our own business and attend to our own problems.

This is something I have felt for a long time and traveling to a number of small islands and communities in the Philippines I feel even more strongly about it. They find their own solutions to the problems they face and outsiders perspectives on "what they need to do" is almost always harmful.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. Take some time to learn something before you post nonsense.
I was in Cuba during an entire election season. Cubans do vote for their representatives (and anyone can run for office).

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,

Democracy in Cuba and the 1997-98 Elections
Arnold August
1999
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books




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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. But what kind of legitimate democracy doesn't have a class of bloated plutocrats dictating terms...
by using their financial clout! It's un-american I tell ya!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
78. Maybe when we know for sure we've closed down all our CIA black sites
closed down Gitmo and Bagram, we will have a leg to stand on about the human rights abuses of other countries, let alone when the abuses of our 2000. 2002 and 2004 elections have been sorted out? No hurry . . . .

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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. But the whole goal of the US move is to allow exiles to wield clout in Cuba by funding relatives
Cuba's response should be to enact the same restrictions that we just lifted.
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Wow, that's a bloody good point.
If it were an American government in Cuba, that's exactly what they'd do, too.

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. That would make them stunning hypocrites. They've been hollering for
full trade on their terms since we kissed and made up with the Russkies.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Full trade or no trade is not a hypocritical position. One of the keys the USSR used to achieve...
diplomatic recognition in the 1920s and 1930s was to insist that countries wishing to engage in trade with them had to concede recognition of the regime and normalize diplomatic relations or they would have nothing to do with them.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. off topic, but
I finally know who Mr. B Natural is...That was the GREATEST episode of the GREATEST show!!!:thumbsup: :crazy:
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. You don't push for an improvement in a relationship, and then run the other way.
It would not pass the smell test. It would be so stunningly unpopular at home that they'd start badmouthing the old fool openly.

The USSR was resource-rich and had a few items that were hard to get anywhere else. Cuba has no leverage.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. What doesn't pass the smell test is the US's hypocrisy.
While accusing Castro of various misdeed against "his" people, it is the US that has travel banned 99.7% of Americans from traveling to a nation that has never done us harm. In fact, it is the US that has done more to negatively impact the good and decent people of Cuba with the US extra territorial sanctions.

Cubans rose up in the late 50's to wrest control of their own nation from US oligarchy, and now they are in control. Look at Cuba's socials stats - world class.

Before the 1959 revolution

  • 75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.
  • More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.
  • 85% had no inside running water.
  • 91% had no electricity.
  • There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.
  • More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.
  • Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.
  • The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.
  • 45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.
  • 25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.
  • 1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).
  • 27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.
  • Racial discrimination was widespread.
  • The public school system had deteriorated badly.
  • Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.
  • Police brutality and torture were common.

    ___



    After the 1959 revolution
    http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/185.html

    “It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

    Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

    -

    It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

    By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

    Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

    Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

    “Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

    Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

    “Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

    It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

    There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

    The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

    “Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

    Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

    The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

    “What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.



    No one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care needs to be forced on any population. Castro didn't give it to them either. Together, nearly all Cubans worked hard to create the infrastructure and systems that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

    The Cuban people wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a fair and complete h-c system.

    The people of Cuba wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class ed system, and they have it.

    Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

    Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.


    Cubans want normalization between the US and Cuba, and they have thrown their doors open to us, but, it is our US government that prevents what the majority of Americans want their government to do - normalize relations. Worse yet, the US government forbids and has criminalized travel to Cuba by Americans - something that Cuba hasn't done.



    Viva Cuba!



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    Mudoria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:32 AM
    Response to Reply #25
    28. What a paradise.
    I can't understand why when given the chance they'll hop anything that floats to get away.
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:35 AM
    Response to Reply #28
    31. Cubans come here for the same reasons people from all over come to the US..
    They come here for the vision of better paying jobs, so they can send a little back to their family back home - just like the millions of other Latin Americans.

    But - Cubans are granted special immigration perks that are offered to no other immigrant group seeking entry into the US.

    Immigrants come to the US from all over the world - from democratic countries. They come here for opportunities to earn more money than they could back at home. They come to work so that they can send a little of their earnings back to their relatives. It has little to do with "despotic' regimes, it has more to do with earning power.

    Cuba is a special case though, in that it is the US's Helms-Burton law (and a myriad of other sanctions) that are intended to cripple the Cuban economy. This is the stated goal of the US government, as evidenced by the Bush* admin's latest 'crackdown' on family remittances to Cuba and increased sanctions on the island and US & foreign corporations that seek to do business with Cuba.

    The USA currently offers over 20,000 LEGAL immigration visas per year to Cubans (and Bush has announced that the number would increase despite the fact that not all 20,000 were applied for in the last few years). This number is more than any other single country in the world. The US interests section in Cuba does the required criminal background check on the applicants.

    The US's 'wet foot/ dry foot' policy (that applies to Cubans only) permits all Cubans, including Cuban criminals and felons, who arrive on US shores by illegal means to remain in the US even those having failed to qualify (or even apply) for a legal US immigration application.

    Cubans who leave for the US without a US visa are returned to Cuba (if caught at sea - mainly in smuggler's go-fast boats @ $5,000 per head) by a US/Cuban repatriation agreement. But IF they make it to US soil, no matter who they are or what their criminal backround might be, they get to stay in the US and enjoy perks offered ONLY TO CUBAN IMMIGRANTS (via the US's Cuban Adjustment Act and a variety of other 'Cubans only' perks)

    For Cuban migrants ONLY - including the aforementioned illegal immigrants who are smuggled in as well as those who have failed a US background check for a legal visa who make it here by whatever means - the US's Cuban Adjustment Act instantly allows any and all Cuban migrants who touch US shore (no matter how) instant entry, instant work visa, instant green card status, instant social security, instant access to welfare, instant access to section 8 assisted housing (with a $41,000 income exemption for Cuban expats only), instant food stamps, plus more. IOW, extra special enhanced social programs designed to entice Cuban expatriation to Miami/USA.

    Despite these programs designed to offer a 'carrot on a stick' to Cubans only, the Cubaphobe rhetoric loop repeats the question "why do Cubans come to the US then?".

    First the US forces economic deprivation on Cubans, then open our doors to any and all Cubans illegal or not, and then offer them a plethora of immigration perks and housing perks not even available to native born Americans.

    But yet, more immigrants come from Mexico and the Latin Americas than do Cubans, and they have no such "Adjustment Act" like Cubans do. But they still pour in.

    Plus, Cuban immigrants can hop on a plane from Miami to Havana and travel right back to the Cuba that they "escaped" from for family trips and vacations - by the hundred of thousands annually (until Bush's recent one visit every 3 yrs restrictions on Cuban expats living in the US).

    Recognizing the immorality of forced starvation and forced economic deprivation is a good reason to drop the US embargo on Cuba, the US Cuban Adjustment Act, and the US travel sanctions placed on US citizens and residents. Then the Cuban tourism economy (its #1 sector) would be able to expand even faster, thereby increasing the average wage and quality of life in Cuba. It would make products, goods, and services even more accessible to both Cubans and Americans. It would reduce the economic based immigration flow from Cuba. And it would restore our own constitutional right to travel unfettered to see Cuba for ourselves.



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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:40 AM
    Response to Reply #28
    33. So how do you explain the people who "float" for up to 700 miles to get to the U.S.,
    from points much farther away in the Caribbean, and how do you explain all the hundreds of people who die in the desert, or drown trying to cross the river to get into the U.S. from Mexico, many of them from Central and South America.

    Don't you ever watch the Miami paper and see the boats with immigrants which go down, or get caught? One was caught only last week with both Brazilians and Dominicans in it.

    What governments do you imagine they are trying to escape?

    When there WAS an actual bloodbath going on in Haiti during the bloody butchering handed out by the US-outfitted death squads trained in the Dominican Republic, assigned to overthrow Aristide, many Haitians tried in desperation to flee in boats from the hideous butchery, and your pResident, George W. Bush sent his Navy to surround the island and turn back every tiny boat to make sure they went back and got slaughtered.

    Nice grasp of history in the Western Hemisphere you've got.
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    JeanGrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:07 PM
    Response to Reply #28
    87. LOL! That fact is hard to argue with, isn't it?
    I always wonder when people talk about fantastic cuba is, how they explain away those that run!
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    eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:01 PM
    Response to Reply #87
    89. Far fewer per capita than run here from other Latin American poor countries n/t
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    eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:58 PM
    Response to Reply #28
    88. Because they, unlike people from Haiti, are guranteed a free welfare ride n/t
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    AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 11:37 AM
    Response to Reply #28
    94. Marielitos, Peter Pan, and other incentives like instant citizenship
    have promote the immigration of Cubans giving them advantage over other immigrants. Funny how congress has created laws that make them claim political prosecution to get instant welfare and the next year they can visit Cuba without fear.

    Also why do we have to spend 20 millions a year trying to violate Cuban airwaves with radio and TV marti if Cuba is so insignificant? Why do we want to control their Cell phone business? to spy on them or to send them spam messages about their car insurance :eyes:
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:49 AM
    Response to Reply #94
    99. One of the facts hard line Cubaphobes have a hard time arguing.
    They "wonder" why Cubans "escape" Cuba. When the immigration perks (including all the same perks for illegal Cuban entrants, even those deemed by the US interests section in Havana not to qualify for a legal immigration visa) are brought to light to the Cubaphobes, what's their response? ... ... ... crickets.


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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:05 AM
    Response to Reply #25
    45. Well, that long tangential lecture aside, my point still stands.
    The subject isn't "Can Americans make this claim about their own country?" The subject is the embargo, the relaxing of restrictions on goods and travel, and this idiotic suggestion that Castro would even consider doing a push back against the relaxation of requirements.

    It's just not going to happen. The regime will gladly take "the goods" no matter how much lecturing they do about lifting the embargo.

    I hope they do lift it before I croak. It would be something to see.
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:11 AM
    Response to Reply #45
    48. You brought up the "smell test".
    US hypocrisy doesn't pass it.

    The US has, for 5 decades, implemented a myriad of sanctions specifically aimed at destroying the Cuban economy and making life difficult on everyday Cubans in Cuba - then blaming Castro for it.
    :crazy:




    Glad to see that, at least, you support ending the embargo on Cuba (so, you do agree with Castro on this).


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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:26 AM
    Response to Reply #48
    51. I brought it up in relation to this specific news story.
    Again---You don't push for an improvement in a relationship, and then run the other way. That was the point I was making with regard to this issue, at this time. I don't care to refight the Cold War.

    I don't claim to know everything, like some do, about WHY the US has maintained this embargo for so long. Now if you look at that question (but first putting aside fairy tale attitudes about Faultlessly Benevolent Castro, and mendacious attitudes about the Mean Old Nasty USA) in a dispassionate manner, you have to ask the one big question:

    WHY?

    There's got to be a reason, and I suspect it's one that remains buried in our national archives. The US doesn't, as a nation, hold grudges forever and a day (China, USSR, Libya, for example) so there's got to be a rather SERIOUS reason why President after President from both parties has held this grudge for this long.

    And I notice that Obama didn't lift the embargo, either, now, did he?

    I think, myself, it goes back to JFK. Nothing else makes sense. I don't know this, though. It just seems logical. Presidents take that sort of stuff very personally, because it is personal, after all.
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:34 AM
    Response to Reply #51
    53. No Castro = no anti Castro industry. Same for the embargo.
    The reasoning for maintaining the extremist positions against Castro is for political gain, at the expense of the ignorant taxpayers who are brainwashed into thinking that Cubans are "fleeing" Castro, instead of understanding the actual Cuban-American community's immigration experience.

    Consider this.. If there were to be no Castro, then there would be no VERY profitable taxpayer funded anti Castro foundations and programs. If there were to be no Castro, who the F would Ileana Ros and the Diaz Balart brothers run against? They need Castro. Everything these so called "anti Castro" factions do, from taunts to threats of war to sanctions to embargoes, only unites the Cuban people behind their fearless and successful leader. This is what the "anti Castro" politicians and "free Cuba" foundations need - in order to continue to profiteer on the backs of the US taxpayers.

    Regrettably, it is not one sided profiteering. Perpetuating the embargo has a profit motive for US politicians representing both sides of the issue. No Castro = no anti Castro lobby (read campaign $$). No embargo = no pro trade w/Cuba lobby (read campaign $$). Hence, the embargo stays so the lobbying money pours in to both sides.

    These hard core anti Castro factions (mainly the ex Cuban Batista oligarchy and their offspring) have a LONG history of violence and intimidation against anyone who dares not toe the virulent anti Castro line. This violence and intimidation against anyone who dares not toe the virulent anti Castro line includes murder and assassinations, fire bombings and car bombings.

    The violence and intimidation has done a good job at muting the more rational and reasoned voices in the Cuban-American community in Miami, but, there are a few very brave people and a few small pro-normalization groups in Miami daring enough to speak for the majority & take on the intransigent and violent anti Castro profiteers. They get little, if any, media attention in the USA.

    The same applies for the US trade sanctions on Cuba. Both sides of the issue (a mix of Rs and Ds) campaign on this issue to raise campaign funds - large amounts are poured into campaigns on both sides.

    Since US "democracy" is dependent on campaign fundraising, just who's political interest is it in to eliminate this campaign cash cow?

    The status quo rules the day (and 5 decades) of US political campaigning.


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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:11 AM
    Response to Reply #53
    64. I've considered it. I don't buy it, though.
    Cubans have some dough in this country, but they don't have enough dough to press that case on their own. During the first generation years, yes, but there's a whole new generations of Cuban Americans who do not give a fuck about the old finca that Castro "stole" from the family. The ones that do want their factories and properties back are going to eventually have to eat that dream. It's not happening. They can try suing the GOC eventually, and good luck to them and the Boston Braves with that approach.

    There's more money to be had, by leaps and bounds, in opening Cuba, despite the protests of these expats. It is ripe, no, overripe, for development and European concerns, Canadians, Mexicans, etc. are well ahead of us in line in that regard.

    The Cuban-American community alone cannot hold the line against the amount of potential profit--even when you have to cut the Cuban government in as an equal partner--that is potentially available in Cuba. Of course, your profit potential is, as always, impacted by transportation costs. When you have a massive, hungry market a mere ninety miles away, you can make some serious coin--way more than you could having to transship stuff to, say, Russia or Europe.

    By continuing this embargo, US business interests across the board, with potential receipts that dwarf the influence of the Cuban American community, are screwed out of massive profits, too. Cuba has enormous potential as a tourist mecca, because of its scenic views and low labor costs. In order to be ready for that, they need to invest in their infrastructure in a major way. Partnership arrangements between GOC and private industry are the way to do that.

    There's got to be a reason for the continued embargo, beyond the influence of a bunch of Cuban squawkers in Florida, who are rapidly being overrun, and their influence diluted, by Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans and Central Americans, and are being pushed to the back by these newly emerging immigrant groups. As I said, I still think the reason is hidden in the archives under a highly classified dossier cover.
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 05:54 PM
    Response to Reply #64
    73. You missed my point, and we agree.
    Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 06:03 PM by Mika
    Agreed, it is not solely the Cuban-American community that dictates US/Cuba trade policy.

    Foreign and domestic, there are a wide range of business interests that are pro trade, and there are a wide range of business interests that are anti trade. Spread around the country. This is why we have representatives from all over America representing their campaign funding interests, be they pro or con trade. As i've mentioned elsewhere, its a mixed bunch of Dems and repugs who are on both sides of Cuba trade policy.


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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:29 AM
    Response to Original message
    4. Sorry Fidel--like another dictator, you really aren't "the decider."
    This is the Obama Show, not the Fidel Show.

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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:51 AM
    Response to Reply #4
    13. Correct. Fidel isn't a dictator.
    Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 07:52 AM by Mika
    Its up to Cuba to allow, or not, whomever it pleases into their own country.

    Cuba has good reason to be skeptical of US moves, and the activities of Miamicuban exiles.




    The Breckenridge Memorandum
    we must clean up the country, even if this means using the methods Divine Providence used on the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

    We must destroy everything within our cannons’ range of fire. We must impose a harsh blockade so that hunger and its constant companion, disease, undermine the peaceful population and decimate the Cuban army. The allied army must be constantly engaged in reconnaissance and vanguard actions so that the Cuban army is irreparably caught between two fronts and is forced to undertake dangerous and desperate measures.

    -
    To sum up, our policy must always be to support the weaker against the stronger, until we have obtained the extermination of them both, in order to annex the Pearl of the Antilles {Cuba}.

    J.C. Breckenridge, U.S. Undersecretary of War in 1897



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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:57 AM
    Response to Reply #13
    15. Too bad more Americans haven't bothered to find out more about US abuse of Cubans,
    going all the way back to the 1800's.

    The quote you posted clearly shows exactly what they expected the blockade to do. It's called "bloqueo" in Cuba, as you knew long ago. It was created to force the Cuban people themselves to suffer until they were in such pain and hardship they would do anything to get the pain removed, and surrender to government by the United States.

    Truly warped right-wing people here have always believed this country has the right to control Cuba. It's a bad lapse in ethics to see things that way.

    By the way, the monster who wrote that memorandum for his President William McKinley was himself a former Conferderate officer. Not hard to catch his seething, hostile racism toward the Cuban population.
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    Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:17 AM
    Response to Reply #15
    21. And Soviet abuse since 1960. But it was profitable for Cuba to kow tow to the US then USSR. $$$. nt
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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:30 AM
    Response to Reply #21
    27. Would you be kind enough to elaborate on this? Have no idea what you could mean by claiming
    Russia abused Cuba.

    Cuba has been the subject of intense economic warfare since Eisenhower, designed to cripple its economy, just the way Richard Nixon intended when he told Richard Helms it was his intention to "make the economy scream" in Chile when the populuation elected Salvador Allende as their President.

    Beyond the economic warfare of the embargo, called the "bloqueo" by Cubans, has been the constant threat of violence continuing to this present time by US-based terrorists who boast openly about their raids in Cuba, shooting people from the water, going ashore and killing specific enemies, etc.

    Why wouldn't you know about this? It's not hard to find out once you decide to inform yourself.
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    Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:34 AM
    Response to Reply #27
    29. Cuba, like Ukraine, Uzbekistan, etc. was part of an international division of labor...
    determined by the Soviet Govt.

    Cuba supplied agricultural goods in exchange for high tech imports. As a result, they never developed their own economy to be an independent one. Now that the Soviet subsidy is gone, they don't have the income they once had.

    Uzbekistan is in the same position - this is why they initially supported the US in the Afghan War - they needed the money as being the Soviet Union's supplier of cotton just wasn't that profitable, especially in the post-Soviet era.

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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:19 AM
    Response to Reply #15
    22. You're sort of forgetting that there was a period of time that the US had a few issues with SPAIN.
    They weren't picking on Cubans for "racist" reasons or because, well...gee, they're CUBANS.

    The invented reason for "Remember the MAINE" was all about Spain.

    And the American "hemispheric imperative" wasn't simply about Cuba. It was about this entire half of the globe.
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    Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:52 AM
    Response to Reply #22
    36. Correct. Cubans are white, black and brown. No one race there. They're Cubans. nt
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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:13 AM
    Response to Reply #13
    19. Fidel is a retired guy who used to function as a dictator while claiming a different title.
    My points about hypocrisy, and the fact that the population would start mocking him openly if he tried to stop "the goods" from coming in, stands.
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:20 AM
    Response to Reply #19
    23. "the goods" you refer to are for a select few with family in the US.
    Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 08:21 AM by Mika
    FYI, the Cuban population, by and large, revere the Castro brothers. They are Cuba's living revolutionary legends. Without their brilliant tactical and organizational skills the Revolution might not have succeeded, and it was with these skills that they organized a successful defense against US invasion.

    Whatever anti Castro BS Americans believe is contrary to the reality in Cuba.

    Been there. Seen it.



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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:52 AM
    Response to Reply #23
    35. Of course, but what is your point? Do you actually think "the goods"
    stay with the families they're sent to? You don't think "the goods" get distributed, bartered, and sold, to the benefit of the original receiver as well as the purchaser, well beyond their original destination? See, that's the IDEA.

    Ask the doctors used as a "trade asset" who are held virtual prisoner in foreign lands far fom home and family how much they love Fidel. Or his brother. http://venezuela-usa.blogspot.com/2007/06/cuban-doctors-defecting.html It's not a universal feeling--if it were you wouldn't have people still trying to do a runner. Ask the "anti-social youth" who are jailed for listening to rap how much they love the regime. http://www.canf.org/2005/1in/editorials/2005-may-12-crackdown-on-cuba's-disaffected.htm Ask the dissidents about their Castro-love who were jailed simply because they wanted to demonstrate for "human rights." http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/12/11/cuba-free-dissidents-now

    Saying "Fidel is REVERED, by and large" is just not accurate, and it hasn't been accurate for a long time. It's as stupid as claiming that everyone hates him, which isn't true either--and I'm not doing that.

    He isn't Jesus, the population is more sophisticated than they were fifty years ago, they know that there's more over the horizon, and they want some of it. People are looking for a little Hope and Change, to include spare change. This policy shift will start the process.
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:19 AM
    Response to Reply #35
    49. The idea is to stimulate a black market in Cuba?
    Promoting illegal activity isn't going to win many friends in Cuba.

    Somehow I just knew you were going to produce CANF and 3rd hand HRW/Cubanet "reports". :rofl:

    Not exactly unbiased sources.

    I say what I say about Cuba and Castro based on many years of personal experience IN Cuba. You?


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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:24 AM
    Response to Reply #49
    50. Oh, boy! Wish guys would look more closely at their sources, don't you? n/t
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:29 AM
    Response to Reply #50
    52. Maybe the poster is unaware that the CANF funded terrorists Bosch and Posada..
    Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 09:37 AM by Mika
    .. on their blood thirsty mission against Castro - by downing a Cuban airliner killing all aboard, mostly young people on a sports team, and a string of theater and hotel bombings that claimed several innocent lives that Posada called "collateral damage".

    The CANF funded those ops, and more.

    Incredulous that a DUer would source them as a reference. :crazy:

    The poster isn't well informed on Cuba issues and reality, but has strong opinions - seemingly based on RW anti Castro BS.


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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:38 AM
    Response to Reply #52
    55. Grow the fuck up, Mika. Prove the cite false or shut the hell up.
    Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 09:45 AM by MADem
    And while you're at it, check it. It's not "CANF"--it's a MIAMI HERALD article that they reprinted.
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    Tempest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:44 AM
    Response to Reply #55
    57. Pot, meet kettle

    Grow the fuck up, Mika

    Yeah, that's real mature.


    Your cites are suspect based upon their history and actions.

    You got caught trying to pawn off propaganda as reporting and now you're lashing out at your accuser.

    Since your cite's biases are well known, the burden of proof is on you that they are objective.

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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:48 AM
    Response to Reply #57
    59. You are acting like an ass because you don't like what I'm saying.
    And engaging in sideline junior high snark.

    My cite is the MIAMI HERALD. Not CANF. Which you would have NOTICED had you clicked the link.

    But you didn't...you saw who reprinted it, and you said "Ah ha...I can get out of this by redirecting the discussion to IMPURE cites!"

    My point stands--grow the fuck up. Stick to the topic or don't bother.
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    EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 06:54 PM
    Response to Reply #55
    79. LOL! And who in your considered opinion owns the Miami "We'll print anything" Herald?
    Good grief. These right wing nutcases have been coming to Miami since 1932. And they have been funding terrorism in Miami and in Cuba at least since then. You grow the fuck up.

    No one who actually understands this issue can cite (not "site") the Miami Herald with a straight face.
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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 06:58 PM
    Response to Reply #79
    82. When you have no other refuge, attack the cite.
    Either contribute to the discussion, or go away. You have a bad habit of coming along with "Yeah me too" repetitions of what others have said, and you add absolutely zero to the discussion.

    FWIW, the SITE (as in website) is the Miami Herald. What is CITED, smartass, is an editorial from that publication.

    And your last sentence is a big fat honking falsehood, like most of the tripe you dish up.
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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:44 AM
    Response to Reply #50
    56. Sorry there, Snarky, as the kids say "FAIL"--the source is the MIAMI HERALD.
    May 12 2005.

    Oh boy!!! Wish guys would look more closely at their sources, don't YOU????????

    It doesn't matter if the HITLER YOUTH reprint the article and slap it up on the web.

    The cite isn't "CANF." That's just the website where the newspaper article was reprinted.

    But then--if you actually READ the article, you might have noticed that.

    Waaah, you used a "cite" that isn't uber-left approved!!! Waaaaah!!!

    That's by far the most cowardly way of avoiding discussion in current use here.
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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:36 AM
    Response to Reply #49
    54. Don't be deliberately obtuse. Go read the WH statement on the policy change.
    And while you're at it, why don't you make fun of the LANCET (couldn't find a direct link)?

    When you can't argue the merits, nitpick the cites. That's the ticket! Then roll out the "rofl" guy. It really aids a reasoned debate.

    You know, you can live in a country, or visit it (you don't make that clear--was that deliberate?) and people can LIE to you. I used to live in Iran. Did you know that I couldn't find one single solitary person, EVER, until, oh, say, late 1978, early 1979, to say a single negative thing about the Shahinshah? Not ONE! Why, everyone LOVED him. He was their BELOVED leader. He was kind, he provided land for the farmers, medical care and food to the poor, full employment, housing for the homeless, a wonderful school system for everyone from nursery to college. Everyone had a picture of him in their homes, like Jesus! When he rode by in his fancy car, they lined the streets and CHEERED--yes, cheered! When he gave a speech, they turned out in DROVES....and listened attentively.

    Sound familiar? Hmmmm? Ring a bell?

    Don't deign to give me anecdotal evidence about what you "know." You "know" what people allow you to know, and sometimes, what they tell you just ain't the truth.
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:45 AM
    Response to Reply #54
    58. Nitpick sites? You rolled out the CANF as a source.
    The CANF and terrorism.

    I have both lived in and have visited Cuba many times. I have family in Cuba.

    Your touching story of the Shah and Iran parallel Cuba during the blood soaked US backed Batista era, not the post Cuba Revolution era.


    OK, so now you're claiming that Cubans are liars now? And you've never even been there? Pathetic. Perhaps the CANF is for you after all.


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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:51 AM
    Response to Reply #58
    60. For the fourth time NO I DID NOT. Did you click the link? No you did not.
    Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 09:54 AM by MADem
    Because if you did, you wouldn't keep on making an ass of yourself.

    The cite is a

    Miami Herald

    article that CANF reprinted. The cite was used because it provided a no-ad, easy load of a

    Miami Herald

    article.

    Miami Herald, Mika. Not CANF. Miami Herald.

    But keep snarking on "the cite."

    It's way easier than responding to my points, isn't it?

    I'm not claiming that Cubans are liars, I'm claiming that they're a lot like Iranians. Regime similarities, and all that. Your attempt to suggest that Castro's predecessor was like the Shah shows how little you know about Iran. I don't recall land reform and subsidized healthcare, full employment, and a massive infrastructure project happening prior to Castro...do you?
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 06:00 PM
    Response to Reply #60
    74. You seem unaware that the CANF launched the "I don't believe the Miami Herald" campaign in Miami.
    Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 06:08 PM by Mika
    "I don't believe the Miami Herald" campaign in Miami.

    The source you cite, the CANF, that cites the Miami-Herald, doesn't itself believe the Miami Herald.

    You know jack about Cuba and the goings on in the Miamicubano exilio community.


    Also, you've been to Cuba when? (I ask because you make the comparison of Iranians and Cubans. I know you've lived in Iran, and I have lived in Cuba, and since I wouldn't dare make a comparison of two entire societies in different countries if I had never been to one or the other, I ask.)




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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 06:32 PM
    Response to Reply #74
    75. I'll never forget the fact that David Lawrence, the Herald's publisher got so many bomb threats
    he and his wife both started having their cars started for them by people who checked them over thoroughly every day. He finally just left, and who could blame him?

    The terrorism going on in MIAMI, in the enternecine wars, the right-wing reactionaries against the more moderate Cubans, or old grudges left over from Cuba, all that C-4 bombing, fire bombing, shooting going on caused the FBI to name Miami as "America's Terror Capital."

    Simply beyond belief.

    How strange it is to know that even now, the Miami Cuban radio hosts will give names, phone numbers, and addresses of people they want their audiences to terrorize for political purposes. What a damned shame they are allowed to get by with this.
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 06:58 PM
    Response to Reply #75
    81. How strange that posters cite dubious sources that cite sources that they have discredited.
    I just "love" that people feel free to speculate on Cuba's past, present, and future that have near zero knowledge of Cuba's past or present, and then argue about it (using RW sources as citations) as if they really have a clue about the reality in Cuba. These "experts" have never set foot on the island, nor done any serious research into the subject. Throw out a quick CANF link or a fast found HRW or AI link... there ya go.. an argument to back up US stereotypes of big bad Dr Castro and his evil island of Cuba and we have Cuba all neatly summed up. No need for details. No need to look beyond the surface.

    I have family in Cuba. Having lived there myself, and having visited many times for private and professional reasons, plus the family and friends, I have skin in this "game" (which it is not). This is no joke to me, and millions of others.


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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:18 PM
    Response to Reply #81
    84. That's unfair.
    I explained my thought process upthread, so I won't go into it again.

    I have never been to Cuba, but I've never been to the moon either, and I can point out the Sea of Tranquility. If we have to be physically present in a nation to be "allowed" to comment on it, that's a high bar for most people here.

    My point remains--it does not make sense that Presidential CANDIDATES say they'll look into dropping the embargo, and when they get into office, they change their minds.

    It's been happening for a long, long time.

    There has to be a dossier that is yet to be declassified.
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:53 PM
    Response to Reply #84
    85. Ok. How are provincial candidates selected in Sea of Tranquility?
    Most likely a topic as other worldly as Cuba elections to the "experts" here, like you.




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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:20 PM
    Response to Reply #85
    86. I am not in the mood for a round of gotcha, sorry.
    My example was valid, even though you didn't like it. Shah and Castro were not champions of democracy, and that was my point. They were authoritarian rulers who threw people in jail when they felt like it. They did good things for their populations, they did bad things to them too.

    Bottom line though: Speak out against either one, and you found yourself behind bars.
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:21 AM
    Response to Reply #86
    90. Your example isn't valid, despite your mewling.
    More valid is the comparison of the Shah and Batista, both US puppet blood soaked henchmen with brutal secret police - trained by CIA.

    Cubans kicked that crap out of Cuba, and created a sovereign, secular, socialist state.

    For you to compare Iranian to Cuban society without ever having been to Cuba to see for yourself is a disingenuous comparison.

    Now, unlike you posting about Cuba, I'm not posting on Iran or their system nor am I making sweeping pronouncements on Iran because my knowledge is too limited on the topic.

    The bottom line is really that you know next to nothing about Cuba and Cubans except stereo typical RW rhetoric, obviously picked up from a cursory reading of the RW web links you've cited. What possesses you to come here and argue that your points (based on ignorance and RW media demagoguery) are valid and true despite the fact that you know almost nothing about the reality in Cuba?

    Of course, you are free to post whatever you feel like here, but you have near zero credibility on this topic. You know next to nothing about Cuba.



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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:12 AM
    Response to Reply #90
    97. MEWLING--OK, that's enough.
    Dumb internet word, rarely used in normal conversation.

    We're done here. I've made my points, you don't like them. Oh, well.

    You have not changed my mind not even in the SLIGHTEST, I've not changed yours.

    Have a nice day.
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 08:17 AM
    Response to Reply #97
    104. And your "points" are invalid.
    Edited on Fri Apr-17-09 08:17 AM by Mika
    Comparing two entire societies based on knowing nothing about one of them ain't exactly a "point".

    You haven't changed my mind about Cuba because you know next to nothing about the place.
    Having lived there, having visited many times, and having family there, I do know quite a bit about Cuba.


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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 11:29 AM
    Response to Reply #104
    106. Oh, Mika. How could you know as much as someone who's never been there?
    The fact you've been from one end of the country to the other, east to west, north to south means so little! Or the fact you've worked there in multiple capacities tells us how little you know. Family, friends, neighbors, students, co-workers? Pffffft. No biggie!

    Don't even think of saying you know about Cuba unless you can prove you are there now!
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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 01:01 PM
    Response to Reply #104
    107. No, they aren't. But you have a nice day. NT
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 03:14 PM
    Response to Reply #107
    109. Well, you're the "expert".
    Edited on Fri Apr-17-09 03:15 PM by Mika
    Never having been there and all.


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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 03:22 PM
    Response to Reply #109
    110. Mika....your dog with a bone attitude does not move me. You have a nice day. NT
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 03:42 PM
    Response to Reply #110
    111. Not interested in moving you. Interested in ending US hypocrisy re Cuba.
    Edited on Fri Apr-17-09 03:42 PM by Mika
    And bullshitting "expert" poseurs posting wildly false info doesn't help my family and friends there.

    You said up thread that anyone who speaks out against the Cuban gov is jailed. This is patently false. I've attended candidate nomination sessions that are loud and boisterous events with many candidates railing against the government. Some are even nominated to run. There are several active political parties who's platforms are to change the system of gov in Cuba. They operate freely and openly.

    Been there seen it. You? (No need to answer, its a rhetorical question as I know you haven't.)


    Cheers

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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 04:11 PM
    Response to Reply #111
    112. Well, Barack Obama ain't the guy to do that--by your very measure!
    After all...he's never BEEN to Cuba, and only people who have BEEN to Cuba are allowed to talk about it, to know anything about it, or weigh in on it.... in your rather perverse little world.

    Go chit chat with Judi Lynne--you two seem to enjoy playing tag team. I'm not interested.

    Oh, and don't weigh in on anything that happens in the House, the Senate or the White House--unless you've worked there.

    Because otherwise, you couldn't "possibly" know anything about these matters.

    Funny, the BBC reports that Raul wants to talk to Barack....about anything. Including human rights, lack of political freedom, and jailed dissidents.

    We'll see.

    They only parties that operate "freely and openly" in Cuba are the "approved" ones. But see, I've never been there, so how could I possibly be an "expert" like you?

    Enjoy that koolaid.
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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:09 AM
    Response to Reply #35
    67. No one's home at your CANF link. Could you get the Herald link?
    Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 11:52 AM by Judi Lynn
    We could use some education on the subject, no doubt. By the way, didn't you know the Herald totally caters to the most strident, extremist element in the Cuban community there?

    It's been that way since the head of the CANF, Jorge Mas Canosa went after the publisher of the Herald, David Lawrence:
    TRYING TO SET
    THE AGENDA IN MIAMI

    Bashing the Herald is only part of Jose Mas Canosa's strategy

    by Anne-Marie O'Connor
    O'Connor, who is based in Miami, is Latin America and Caribbean correspondent for Cox Newspapers.

    The Miami Herald usually takes and assumes the same positions as the Cuban government. But we must confess that they were once more discreet about it. Lately the distance between The Miami Herald and Fidel Castro has narrowed considerably. . . . Why must we consent to The Miami Herald and ElNuevo Herald continuing a destructive campaign full of hatred for the Cuban xile, when ultimately they live and eat, economically speaking, on our support?

    Jorge Mas Canosa, chairman of the Miami-based Cuban American National Foundation, in a local radio broadcast, aired on January 21 and printed in full in El Diario las Americas.

    The revelation that The Miami Herald and its Spanish-language counterpart, El Nuevo Herald, were in bed with Cuban leader Fidel Castro must have confounded the editors of the Cuban Communist party organ, Granma, since the Havana daily has repeatedly portrayed them as right-wing tools of the eternal CIA campaign against the thirty-three-year-old revolution.

    Anywhere else, Mas Canosa's remarks might have been ignored. In the darker recesses of Miami's exile community, however, his words were clearly a call to arms. Within days Herald publisher David Lawrence, Jr., and two top editors received death threats. Anonymous callers phoned in bomb threats and Herald vending machines were jammed with gum and smeared with feces. Mas Canosa's Cuban American National Foundation quickly denied responsibility and condemned the hijinks, but Mas's words were highly inflammatory in a city where public red-baiting has served as a prelude to bombings and, in past years, murder.

    That was in January, but editors at the Herald still feel besieged. Foundations ads saying "I don't believe The Herald" in Spanish are appearing on Dade County buses. Lawrence has heard that foundation people are sounding out advertisers over whether they would support a boycott -- a troubling prospect in a recession.

    Coverage of the foundation and Cuba is now carefully scrutinized, Herald reports say. "There has been a watershed in how we operate with Cuban questions," says one staffer, who requested anonymity. "Before the campaign, Cuba issues were dealt with in a routine way."
    More:
    http://backissues.cjrarchives.org/year/92/3/miami.asp

    It would be interesting learning about Cuban youth who have been thrown in the slammer for listening to rap. Presumably it wouldn't be any of these guys' fans:

    Mala Bizta Sochal Klu
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cytjjbi9b-c

    OGGUERE
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-FNepYAgno

    OPB (Ollantay Perez Betancourt)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J6f5qL2ZMU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KskQQzfEX9s

    Cuba's youngest rapper, a kid
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjvYXkrLk6M

    Piñar del Río
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWPRsB8S0fw

    ETC.
    (I only grabbed the first few I saw, didn't really listen to them.)

    Wikipedia on Cuban rappers:
    Cuban hip hop

    Hip hop music arrived in Cuba via radio and TV broadcasts from Miami. During the 1980s hip hop culture in Cuba was mainly centred around breakdancing. But by the 1990s, with the collapse of the Soviet Union and the onset of the Special Period, young "raperos" were seeking ways to express their frustrations.

    Early days: Importation
    Initially hip hop was viewed with suspicion, not just by the government, but by many in the community as well. With raperos emulating US rappers' aggressive posturing and lyrical content, hip hop was seen as just another cultural invasion from the US, bringing with it the violence and problems of the ghettos.

    The importation and the birth of Cuban rap could be debatable, but many argue that the importation of U.S rap and its influence was brought from Miami. Rap hit Cuba approximately quarter century ago but it was not imported to Cuba until 1990s after the fall of the Soviet Union.<1> However it existed among young moneros, who had a tremendous oral ability and linguistic creativity. At the beginning of establishing Rap in Cuba rap like rock was perceived as a foreign import and while it was never forbidden, neither was it promoted or encouraged” <2> The Cuban government changed its perceptions about hip-hop during 1999 when it declared it as an authentic expression of Cuban Culture.<3> In addition the government formed the Agencia Cubana de Rap (The Cuban Rap Agency) that provides state-run record label and hip-hop magazine, and began supporting the annual Cuban Hip Hop festival. Cuban rappers injected a renovating energy into Cuban music that was taken from hip hop culture. <4> Rap in Cuba began to emerge precisely during the gangsta rap period in the United States which included artists like 2Pac, Notorious B.I.G, Ice-T, Snoop Dogg and many more influential gangster rappers.<2>

    Gradually this began to change as raperos began to express their own reality and make use of traditional Cuban culture. One sentiment expressed involved how Cuban politics were not keeping pace with social reality. All Cubans are discouraged from visiting government-designated 'tourist zones,' such as the fancy restaurants and night clubs in Old Havana, and police will ask most who show up there for ID. But statistics show that the police arrest Afrocubans all over the island more often than Whites. Many Afrocubans say the government assumes Blacks are more likely to be involved in criminal activity. <5> <6> This exclusion from night life led to the importance of house parties where raperos were able to establish their own "underground" hip hop scene. The financial constraints of tourist geared night clubs that only accept dollars or venues that cost up to the equivalent of a standard monthly Cuban salary for entry also aided in the significance of house parties in the Cuban hip hop scene. <6>

    The small, underground gatherings or house parties were referred to as bonches. The bonches were for the true hip-hop fans who were into the less accessible rap in Cuba. "These bonches can be considered the seeds of today's Cuban rap community." As bonches gained popularity, they became too large for private homes, so aspiring DJ Adalberto Jimenez found a public space in Havana, which he called La Mona. The venue did charge a small fee, but it stayed more of a social than commercial club, remaining loyal to the underground scene. Many moneros were interested in creating their own rap, but lack of equipment prevented the formation of professional Cuban hip hop groups until the establishment of the Havana Hip Hop Festival.<7> <8>

    In 1995, a group of rappers organized a Hip-hop festival. The annual Hip Hop festival consisted of 50 Cuban and 12 foreign groups: Mos Def and The Roots have supported the event as well as many others. As Hip-hop became more popular, it reached the youth of Cuba and many other countries. As a result, several thousand people globally have attended the festival in previous years.<9> <7>

    ~snip~
    Birth of a Cuban scene
    The change in both attitude towards hip hop and the move towards home grown expression was in part facilitated by the involvement of Nehanda Abiodun, a U.S. Black Liberation Army activist in political exile in Cuba. The U.S. is the birth place of hip-hop, so of course played a major role in the birth of hip-hip in Cuba. U.S. hip-hop artists continue to be hip-hop's most important innovators and are very influential to Cuban rappers. Cuban rappers admire the success of U.S. rappers and desire to achieve the same amount of success, so they begin to model themselves after them.<11>

    Hip hop's transfer to Alamar (the birthplace of rap cubano), a suburb east of Havana (with the best radio reception to Miami radio stations 99 JAMS and HOT 105), was so successful that in 1995 Rodolfo Renzoli, a rapper from Alamar's original hip hop collective, Grupo Uno, organized Cuba's first hip hop festival with the aid of the Asociación de Hermanos Sais(AHS). Despite poor promotion and the remote location, the first festival, organized as a friendly competition among the growing group of rap artists in and around Havana, became a huge success with moneros' and 'raperos'. 'Rap cubano emerged as a distinct genre when Amenaza (now known internationally as the Orishas - France, EMI) incorporated Afro-Cuban bata percussion into their performance at the 1996 festival, winning them first place in the competition. The same year, Cuba's first all-female rap group, Instinto, secured second place for their energetically-charged rap flow and performance. By 1999, through the aid of the Hip Hop Manifesto (written by DJ Ariel Fernandez), rap cubano and rock music (another marginalized musical genre in Cuba) was declared "an authentic expression of Cuban culture" by Abel Prieto, Cuba's Minister of Culture. Fidel Castro deemed hip hop music to be at the "vanguard of the Revolution" because of its revolutionary message.<12> This resulted in the formation of the Agencia Cubana de Rap (The Cuban Rap Agency). The Agencia Cubana de Rap is the state's organization that runs a record label and hip hop magazine, Movimiento.<13>

    Upset with what she saw as blind imitation of commercial US rap culture with its depiction of thug life, violence, and misogyny, Abiodun began working with the Malcom X Grassroots Movement in the US to bring progressive US hip hop artists to Cuba. This led to the Black August benefit concerts held in New York and Havana.

    The project has featured progressive artists such as Erykah Badu, David Banner, Common, dead prez, Fat Joe, the Roots, Jean Grae, Les Nubians, Chuck D, Gil Scott-Heron, Dave Chapelle, Tony Touch, Black Thought, Mos Def, Talib Kweli, La Bruha, Imani Uzuri, Jeru and the Coup. <8>

    The Black August Collective that was formed, and the concerts these progressive US artists gave in Cuba, played a key role in expanding and raising the profile of conscious, politicized rap within Cuba. Many Cuban rappers felt an affinity to the revolutionary aspects of the work these artists created. The Black August Hip Hop Collective Statement of Purpose offers that "Our goal is to bring culture and politics together and allow them to naturally evolve into a unique hip hop consciousness that informs our collective struggle for a more just, equitable and human world". <14>. Despite the movement's association with an identity other than Cuban, the government supported The Black August Collective and allowed the rappers to perform as they were supportive of the revolution. The youth of Cuba were fascinated not only by this style of music, but also by the Black Pride of the performers. <15>This consciousness of struggle and achieving the goals of revolution are a key characteristic of a majority of Cuban hip hop today. <16> In the USA, early hip hop was a DJ-based music: it was the creative transformation of the turntable from a mere playback device to a full-fledged percussion instrument that established "break beat" music as a new cultural form. Cuba however,, had neither turntables nor black vinyl, making it impossible for these exotic new sounds to be duplicate within Cuba. Due to a lack of sophisticated equipment in Cuba, the Hip Hop that has emerged features simple beats<17> which naturally leads to an emphasis on the lyrical content. Just like earlier American Hip Hop, Cuban Hip Hop has developed as an outlet to convey politically charged and socially conscious messages. These messages, over a simple beat, create a raw "old school" sound which draws the underground and alternative Hip Hop crowd such as the artists mentioned above for some authentic inspiration. Some say that Havana, host of the Hip Hop Festival, is the new home of old school<12>.

    ~snip~
    Hip hop and rap clubs, while scarce today in Cuba, have emerged as an open and affordable gathering space for lower and middle-class Cubans who are increasingly excluded from other forms of Havana nightlife due to rising prices, dolarization of popular clubs and increasing segregation on behalf of tourists and the wealthy Cuban elite. Under these divisive socio-economic conditions, hip hop and rap concerts have now come to represent a space of open debate and social and political discussion for many young Cubans. Topics such as racism, tourism and police harassment are often addressed openly in these spaces through music and performance as well as through participatory discussion.<23>

    ~snip~
    Women’s role in hip-hop and regeton in Cuba is constantly growing. However, women in hip-hop in Cuba face a difficult dichotomoy of both acting as the powerful female or as the sexy perreo dancer. For example, Las Kudras who describe themselves as feminists and do not participate in the Nationalized Cuban Hip-Hop scene are comfortable questioning “hegemonic notions of femininity and Black female sexuality” <54>. Yet, female rap groups such as Animo Consejo who have an interest in broader, national appeal have a more difficult time managing between their role as a sexy performer who will be judged by their onstage look and as rappers who are interested in changing the racialized role of women in Cuba <5>. Magia serves as one of the most popular female Cuban rappers who has been able to mediate this dichotomy into some success in the country.
    More:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_hip_hop

    http://www.carnavaldelpueblo.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/cuba.jpg http://userserve-ak.last.fm.nyud.net:8090/serve/252/196861.jpg
    http://imgs.sfgate.com.nyud.net:8090/c/pictures/2002/05/13/mn_cuba2.jpg


    Cuban Rappers Krudas Cubensi Bring Their Feminist Agenda to Santa Ana's SolArt Gallery Café
    By GABRIEL SAN ROMAN
    Published on March 12, 2008 at 11:02am
    Left On!
    Cuban rappers Krudas Cubensi bring their feminist agenda to America

    Acclaimed as one of the most talented groups to emerge from Cuba's underground hip-hop movement, Krudas Cubensi (the Crude Ones) ain't your average flow. The trio—Olivia Prendes (Pelusa MC) and sisters Odalys (Wanda) and Odaymara (Pasa) Cuesta—are a sociological mouthful: an all-women, multiracial, fiercely feminist, vegan, pro-black and out-lesbian hip-hop group.

    Founded in 1999, Krudas Cubensi made their reps in Cuba with their searing rhymes celebrating the beauty of being gordas while tirelessly battling patriarchy. Despite facing discrimination at multiple levels, as well as a Cuban revolution that has sought to unify society along class and anti-imperialist lines—at times at the expense of race and gender—Krudas Cubensi earned respect anyway.

    After Pasa and Pelusa decided to rejoin Wanda in relocating to the United States, the group continued their struggle, with the added burden of being immigrants. Wasting no time, the women have toured from New York to San Francisco, performing at rallies, film festivals and community spaces. Krudas' accentuated, rapid-fire flows transform into harmoniously sung choruses layered over heavy Afro-Caribbean percussion that make for powerfully compelling social critiques. According to Pasa, the African roots of the group's sound are "an inheritance from my ancestors."

    Now in a nation where bling and lyrically misogynistic hip-hop limit many women to their sporting of "apple-bottom jeans"—as well as fur boots—Krudas Cubensi stand poised to make a difference. The three rapping activists did not leave the island to shop their demos to the likes of Cuban-American music mogul Emilio Estefan in search of fortune and fame.

    "Being here in this country at this moment is a part of our mission, which consists of transmitting our life experiences, sensibilities and thoughts to a wider audience," Wanda remarks. "We aspire to see a change in the communities that are the most fucked-over and needy." Staying true to their principles, Krudas Cubensi have quickly inserted themselves in joining fair food campaigns while continuing their feminist agitation in the U.S.

    "Feminism for me, not just in hip-hop, is the search for equilibrium in sexist societies," Pelusa says. "Our mission was not selected by us alone. Universal forces have placed us on this path. We raise our voices in an attempt to uplift the rights of women and all people who are suffering injustice. We are against war and all types of violence. According to our understanding, these conditions have always been closely linked to systems of patriarchy. We have much in common with Cuban, Latino and global hip-hop, but our focus is on women."

    More:
    http://www.ocweekly.com/2008-03-13/music/left-on/

    ETC.

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    Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:58 AM
    Response to Reply #19
    41. Yeah, what MADem types. nt
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    brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 05:44 PM
    Response to Reply #4
    72. The economic benefits for the U.S. would be immediate if Obama lifted the embargo
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    Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:16 AM
    Response to Original message
    20. Castro's still recovering from the USSR's cruely stopping the HUGE subsidies to Cuba.
    I don't support the embargo, but Castro has eventually got to catch some blame for the state of the Cuban economy and it's long, slow recovery from Soviet imperialism and being their tool for stuff like Angola.
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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:22 AM
    Response to Reply #20
    24. It would be helpful if you looked a little more deeply into Cuba's involvement in Angola.
    SECRET CUBAN DOCUMENTS ON HISTORY OF AFRICA INVOLVEMENT

    National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 67
    Edited by Peter Kornbluh

    NEW BOOK based on Unprecedented Access to Cuban Records;
    True Story of U.S.-Cuba Cold fear Clash in Angola presented in Conflicting Missions

    Washington D.C.: The National Security Archive today posted a selection of secret Cuban government documents detailing Cuba's policy and involvement in Africa in the 1960s and 1970s. The records are a sample of dozens of internal reports, memorandum and communications obtained by Piero Gleijeses, a historian at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, for his new book, Conflicting Missions: Havana, Washington, and Africa, 1959-1976 (The University of North Carolina Press).

    Peter Kornbluh, director of the Archive’s Cuba Documentation Project, called the publication of the documents “a significant step toward a fuller understanding Cuba’s place in the history of Africa and the Cold War,” and commended the Castro government’s decision to makes its long-secret archives accessible to scholars like Professor Gleijeses. “Cuba has been an important actor on the stage of foreign affairs,” he said. “Cuban documents are a missing link in fostering an understanding of numerous international episodes of the past.”

    Conflicting Missions provides the first comprehensive history of the Cuba's role in Africa and settles a longstanding controversy over why and when Fidel Castro decided to intervene in Angola in 1975. The book definitively resolves two central questions regarding Cuba's policy motivations and its relationship to the Soviet Union when Castro astounded and outraged Washington by sending thousands of soldiers into the Angolan civil conflict. Based on Cuban, U.S. and South African documents and interviews, the book concludes that:
    • Castro decided to send troops to Angola on November 4, 1975, in response to the South African invasion of that country, rather than vice versa as the Ford administration persistently claimed;

    • The United States knew about South Africa's covert invasion plans, and collaborated militarily with its troops, contrary to what Secretary of State Henry Kissinger testified before Congress and wrote in his memoirs.

    • Cuba made the decision to send troops without informing the Soviet Union and deployed them, contrary to what has been widely alleged, without any Soviet assistance for the first two months.
    Professor Gleijeses is the first scholar to gain access to closed Cuban archives—a process that took more than six years of research trips to Cuba—including those of the Communist Party Central Committee, the armed forces and the foreign ministry. Classified Cuban documents used in the book include: minutes of meetings with Fidel Castro, Che Guevara's handwritten correspondence from Zaire, military directives from Raul Castro, briefing papers from intelligence chieftain, Manuel Piniero, field commander reports, internal Cuban government memoranda, and Cuban-Soviet communications and military accords.
    In addition to research in Cuba, the author also worked extensively in the archives of the United States, Belgium, Great Britain, and West and East Germany, teaching himself to read Portuguese and Afrikaans so that he could evaluate primary documents written in those languages.

    Gleijeses also interviewed over one hundred fifty protagonists, among them the former CIA station chief in Luanda, Robert Hultslander who spoke on the record for the first time for this book. "History has shown," Hultslander noted, "that Kissinger's policy on Africa itself was shortsighted and flawed." He also commented on the forces of Jonas Savimbi, the rebel chief recently killed in Angola: "I was deeply concerned ... about UNITA's purported ties with South Africa, and the resulting political liability such carried. I was unaware at the time, of course, that the U.S. would eventually beg South Africa to directly intervene to pull its chestnuts out of the fire."

    In this first account of Cuba's policy in Africa based on documentary evidence, Gleijeses describes and analyzes Castro's dramatic dispatch of 30,000 Cubans to Angola in 1975-76, and he traces the roots of this policy—from Havana's assistance to the Algerian rebels fighting France in 1961 to the secret war between Havana and Washington in Zaire in 1964-65 and Cuba's decisive contribution to Guinea-Bissau's war of independence from 1966-1974.

    "Conflicting Missions is above all the story of a contest, staged in Africa, between Cuba and the United States," according to its author, which started in Zaire in 1964-65 and culminated in a major Cold War confrontation in Angola in 1975-76. Using Cuban and US documents, as well as the semi-official history of South Africa's 1975 covert operation in Angola (available only in Afrikaans), this book is the first to present the internationalized Angolan conflict from three sides—Cuba and the MPLA, the United States and the covert CIA operation codenamed IAFEATURE and South Africa, whose secret incursion prompted Castro's decision to commit Cuban troops.

    Conflicting Missions also argues that Secretary Kissinger's account of the US role in Angola, most recently repeated in the third volume of his memoirs, is misleading. Testifying before Congress in 1976, Kissinger stated "We had no foreknowledge of South Africa's intentions, and in no way cooperated militarily." In Years of Renewal Dr. Kissinger also denied that the United States and South Africa had collaborated in the Angolan conflict; Gleijeses' research strongly suggests that they did. The book quotes Kissinger aide Joseph Sisco conceding that the Ford administration "certainly did not discourage" South Africa's intervention, and presents evidence that the CIA helped the South Africans ferry arms to key battlefronts. The book also reproduces portions of a declassified memorandum of conversation between Kissinger and Chinese leader Teng Hsiao-p'ing which shows that Chinese officials raised concerns about South Africa's involvement in Angola in response to Ford and Kissinger's entreaties for Beijing's continuing support. The memcon quotes President Ford as telling the Chinese "we had nothing to do with the South African involvement." Drawing on the Cuban documents, the book challenges Kissinger's account in his memoirs about the arrival of Cubans in Angola. The first Cuban military advisers did not arrive in Angola until late August 1975, and the Cubans did not participate in the fighting until late October, after South Africa had invaded.

    In assessing the motivations of Cuba's foreign policy, Cuba's relations with the Soviet Union, and the nature of the Communist threat in Africa, Gleijeses shows that CIA and INR intelligence reports were often sophisticated and insightful, unlike the decisions of the policymakers in Washington.

    More:
    http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB67/
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    Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:29 AM
    Response to Reply #24
    26. Cuba was a toadie for the Soviet Union in exchange for a subsidy and a market for
    Cuban fruit and sugar. So, they let themselves become a supplier of agricultural products and did not develop their economy.

    I ate Cuban fruit while I lived in Russia.

    But Cuba was a cog in the economic division of labor that was the Soviet bloc and they're still crawling out from under it.

    Castro hosted a conference of Latin Am. leaders in the mid-1980s at which he held up the Cuban economy as a model for other Latin American nations. How times change.

    I support ending the embargo. It's stupid.
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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:34 AM
    Response to Reply #26
    30. Well, the President of the World Bank made a public statement supporting this view, too.
    World Bank heaps praise on Cuba

    THE SCOTSMAN
    May 02, 2001
    foreign desk

    CUBA was praised yesterday by the president of the World Bank in recognition of the Caribbean island's achievement in providing some of Latin America's highest standards of health care and education without a penny of foreign funding.
    "Cuba has done a great job on education and health and if you judge the country by education and health they've done a terrific job," the bank's chief, James Wolfensohn, said at a press conference in Washington.

    "So I have no hesitation in acknowledging that they've done a good job, and it does not embarrass me to do it. They should be congratulated for what they have done," he added.

    Statistics in the bank's World Development Indicators report, issued during its spring meetings over the weekend, show that Cubans live longer than other Latin Americans, including residents of the US Commonwealth of Puerto Rico.

    At the same time, the island's literacy levels are only equalled by the middle-income nations of Argentina and Uruguay.

    The bank's data shows life expectancy in Cuba is 76 years. Among Latin American countries, that is second only to Costa Rica at 77. It equals the showcase market economy of Chile, while it is ahead of Puerto Rico at 73 years; Argentina, Uruguay and Mexico, where the average person lives for 72 years; and Brazil, which lags at 67 years.

    Infant mortality in Cuba is seven deaths per 1,000 live births, much lower than the rest of Latin America.

    Only 3 per cent of Cuban males above the age of 15 years cannot read, a literacy rate that is five times better than Brazil and 16 times ahead of Haiti, the data shows.

    More:
    http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/cuba/1293.html
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:40 AM
    Response to Reply #30
    32. What? No Walmart economy to fill their houses with cheap junk?
    How many millions of Americans, right now, would give their 'left one' to have universal health care for their family or sick children? Same for universal higher ed.

    Too many Americans seem to think that shiny trinkets bought for cheap and made offshore equals wealth.



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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:57 AM
    Response to Reply #32
    39. You remind me of the 'dissidents' working for the U.S., who were discovered to be getting
    (bought with US taxpayers' hard earned tax dollars) cashmere sweaters, leather jackets, Godiva chocolates, play stations, etc.

    Do you remember this absurdity?
    Dissidents blew American 'aid' millions on luxuries for Cuba
    Richard Luscombe in Miami
    The Guardian, Thursday 16 November 2006

    Cuban dissidents who were given millions of dollars by the US government to support democracy in their homeland instead blew money on computer games, cashmere sweaters, crabmeat and chocolates, which were then sent to the island.
    A scathing congressional audit of democracy assistance programmes found "questionable expenditure" by several groups funded by Washington in opposition to President Fidel Castro's rule on the communist Caribbean island.

    The Miami-based Acción Democrática Cubana spent money on a chainsaw, Nintendo Game Boys and Sony PlayStations, mountain bikes, leather coats and Godiva chocolates, which the group says were all sent to Cuba. "These people are going hungry. They never get any chocolate there," Juan Carlos Acosta, the group's executive director, told the Miami Herald.

    He also defended the purchase of a chainsaw he said he needed to cut a tree that had blocked access to his office in a hurricane, and said the leather jackets and cashmere sweaters were bought in a sale. "They think it's not cold there," Mr Acosta said. "At $30 <£16> it's a bargain because cashmere is expensive. They were asking for sweaters."
    More:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/nov/16/cuba.richardluscombe
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    Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:50 AM
    Response to Original message
    34. Patience, El Jefe, we're working on it
    Obama has already done more to alleviate this idiocy than any of his predecessors. Give it a little more time, it is all going to come down pretty soon I wager.

    I stopped smoking years ago, but as soon as the embargo is gone for good I plan to chomp down on one fine Cuban cigar in celebration. :smoke:
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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:01 AM
    Response to Reply #34
    42. Why not, after all old right-wing Tom DeLay smokes them, himself!
    Saw this photo several years ago, and it almost made me gag, since Tom DeLay has been one of the Miami reactionary "exile" Congresspeople's loudest, most obnoxious supporters, helping them time after time after time defeat proposed Cuba legislation in Congress. What a colossal a-hole!

    http://www.guerillaimports.com.nyud.net:8090/delay.jpg
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    JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:17 AM
    Response to Reply #42
    69. I hate to defend Tom DeLay, but I think his cigar is legal and from Honduras.
    Almost every cigar brand made in Cuba has a non-Cuban counterpart manufactured by the exiles who maintain a claim on ownership to the trade name. H. Uppmann, La Gloria Cuban, Partagas, even Cohiba (a company founded by the state tobacco industry in Cuba after the revolution) has a Dominican counterpart by the same name that benefits from our non-recognition of Cuban trademarks.

    Here is a review of a cigar with the same label as Tom's cigar.
    http://www.cigarsmokinglounge.com/2008/03/hoyo-de-monterrey-hoyo-de-tradicin-toro.html

    Here are examples of the Cuban version



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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:24 AM
    Response to Reply #69
    70. Here's a Wikipedia reference to this photo which has been all over the place:
    Cuban cigar photo
    DeLay has long been a strong critic of Cuban leader Fidel Castro's regime, which DeLay has called a "thugocracy", and a supporter of the U.S. trade embargo against Cuba. However, in April 2005, Time Magazine published a photo from a government-funded July 2003 trip to Israel, in which DeLay is seen smoking a Cuban cigar.<45> The consumption or purchase of Cuban cigars is illegal in the United States (but was, at the time, not illegal abroad). Since September 2004, the U.S. Treasury Department's enforcement of the law has been toughened to forbid consumption (smoking) or purchase of Cuban cigars by U.S. citizens anywhere in the world, despite the Treasury Department's obvious lack of jurisdiction outside the United States.<46>
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_DeLay#Cuban_cigar_photo
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    AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 09:53 AM
    Response to Original message
    61. President's Obama koo laid on Cuba: Bay of Pigs II Unleashed
    one way ticket to put money and promote corruption in Cuba, turn cubans into consumers then use the media to do the rest.

    The invasion of capital and propaganda to Cuba but US citizen can't see for them selves the real Cuba.

    What a jock.
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    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 06:41 PM
    Response to Reply #61
    77. Don't be too sure that Cubans will fall for it.
    Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 06:42 PM by Mika
    Cuba isn't an easy sellout. Never forget that when the shit hit the fan during the "special period" Cuba built up their infrastructure - opening more schools and clinics and hospitals, all professions that needed educated people to fill the positions. Cuba did it then - they remember. They also know that during that time NO Cuban was thrown into the street or lost their house due to a foreclosure - the government built more housing that needed trained and skilled tradespeople to build. Cubans learned in school, and the school of hard knocks, and from actual experience, the virtues of their socialist system. They survived. They thrived. They are Cubañia! and proud of it.


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    Phoonzang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 06:40 PM
    Response to Original message
    76. Hey Castro...you want to help end the embargo? Stop talking.... nt
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    EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 06:55 PM
    Response to Reply #76
    80. I think you just reduced imperialism to an ugly phrase. Well done!
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    MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:00 PM
    Response to Reply #76
    83. Bingo. Succinct and entirely accurate. nt
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    Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:40 AM
    Response to Original message
    91. I know what Fidel should do to help get the embargo lifted...
    die
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    Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:23 AM
    Response to Reply #91
    100. This is who stands in the way of Big Badass America?
    The US faces a serious challenge from a major contender.


    -Fidel Castro demonstrating his famous
    One-Two knockout diplomatic punch-


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    Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 04:43 AM
    Response to Original message
    92. Deleted message
    Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
     
    Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:30 AM
    Response to Reply #92
    98. I was just noticing the same thing...
    The US embargo of Cuba is both stupid and hypocritical....
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    Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:06 AM
    Response to Reply #98
    103. VC!!!!!!!
    How in the Hell are you???

    :hi:
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    Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 10:14 AM
    Response to Original message
    93. Of course obama should.
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    marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:04 PM
    Response to Original message
    95. Why does Cuba even need the US?
    They've got Mexico, all of South America, Canada, Europe, etc. They don't need us.
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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:11 PM
    Response to Reply #95
    96. Apparently you're completely unaware of the extraterritorial aspects of this embargo,
    reaching into third countries, and affecting the products they can sell to Cuba, etc.

    Do yourself a favor and try to get the information you need on the embargo, and attendant legislation, like the Toricelli Act, and the Helms-Burton if you expect to speak from a position which is reality-based.
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    robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 10:02 AM
    Response to Reply #96
    102. Your patronizing attitude sucks, Judi Lynn.
    You act as if you know it all, and when someone disagrees with you on your Dear Leader, Castro, it is an opportunity to act condescendingly.

    Castro is scum, but we should trade with him, like we do with China.
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    robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 10:01 AM
    Response to Original message
    101. I think we should end the embargo.
    We should treat Cuba like we treat most other fascist dictatorships: disdain at their malodorous government... but we will trade with them.
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    blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-17-09 11:13 AM
    Response to Reply #101
    105. What complete ignorance.

    "fascist dictatorship", you know nothing.

    And before you ask, yes, I've been there.
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