Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Obama: I'll Stick With Embargo For Now (on Cuba)

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:55 PM
Original message
Obama: I'll Stick With Embargo For Now (on Cuba)
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 02:56 PM by Mika
Source: cBS News

President Obama freely admits that the U.S. trade embargo of Cuba "hasn't worked the way we wanted it to" although it’s been in effect for nearly 50 years.

Even so, he made it clear today it will stay in place until Cuban leaders take more overt action to free political prisoners, and permit freedom of the press and democratic elections.

-

During a trip-ending news conference at the site of the Summit of the Americas (where Cuba’s exclusion and the U.S. embargo were highly-contentious issues), the president said his concerns about Cuba are “not simply something to be brushed aside.”

That puts his policy in line with all of his predecessors, who resisted calls at home and abroad, even from members of Congress, that the embargo be lifted.


Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/04/19/politics/100days/worldaffairs/main4955009.shtml



So much for all of the gleeful gibberish about making big changes in Cuba policy.

Americans are still travel banned.

The globally condemned US sanctions on Cuba still stand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. I guess Rush will have to continue getting his Cuban Cigars illegally n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. I believe that part of what President Obama said was that this was the start.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 03:01 PM by FrenchieCat
Was he really supposed to lift the Embargo today? :shrug:

Even your headline reads "for now".....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. The sanctions are a failure, but we're keeping them?
Kinda defines insanity. :crazy:


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. We are not keeping them....we have already changed them......
and they will be changed some more.

I guess that Pres. Obama learned something when dealing with the Repugs
on the Stimulus Bill. Don't give them what they want just because they want it....
make it a part of the negotiations.

Why shouldn't Barack Obama attempt to gain freedom for some of the political prisoners in Cuba?

Was Castro a saint, and did everything just right?

A little freedom of the press, and some democratic moves would be nice.
How can we request those things if we don't bargain and just give away the entire store?

Barack Obama is ready to change things, but he ain't naive.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. All Obama has done is roll bach Bush's more draconian measures.
Americans are still travel banned by the US gov.

The failed policy of sanctions remain.

No real changes have been made. Just a lot of blather and talk by the dumbshit media pretending that real change has been made.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yep....that's where it starts.
But it is not where it will end.

So yes, change has been made, after 8 years of a particular policy...as of a few days agon,
it is no longer.

Now, it is time to work on the rest.

After 50 years, you just might have to wait a bit longer and pout while waiting,
but I don't think Barack Obama is too concerned that you are demanding that this
should have been done yesterday.

All in due course, even if you think all today or never.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. When I read posts like these, the profound ignorance of what we have done to Cuba
stuns me. Just as stunning as when Hillary Clinton visited that sweatshop in Haiti to give the workers a pep talk in a language they don't understand.

Thank goodness Obama himself does much better.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Me too.
I have family in Cuba who have suffered greatly because of the US extra territorial sanctions.

To have a fellow DUer tell me that we should wait a little longer (after 50 plus f-ing years!) is astounding.

I just LOVE the DU Cuba "experts" who've never been there, and know ever so little about the place, offer sage advice on waiting just a little longer.

I guess that Cuba will have to open its veins to establish relations with the US according to current policy.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. You don't have to have been there to understand politics- something you clearly
don't. And your drama queen shit is absurd. Sorry, it does take time to change institutional dysfunction in any large organization, particularly in a political system.

It's so very American of you to want instant presto change from the new adminsitration.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Absurd?
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 04:54 PM by Mika
Not at all. Its not about speculation with me. I have family there, I've lived there, and I do know about Cuban politics IN Cuba.

More of the same. Mr Obama pretty much rolled back Bush's policy. Squealing that this is major change is like the repugs calling the sunsetting of repug tax breaks for the rich as an 'Obama tax increase'.

Americans without family in Cuba (that's 99.7% of us) are still travel banned by our own government.

The (failed, by Mr Obama's own admission) US sanctions on Cuba remain - we're going to be cautious we don't move too fast, after 50+ years of failure.


If ever Cuba policy has been such a lynchpin political/foreign policy issue - it is now, and all of our allies are calling out for a real change in US policy.. not keeping it for now.

The rest of the world has normalized relations with Cuba. The US is the lone nation that doesn't. It is ridiculous policy and it needs to end now.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
68. It's not politics it is ignorance of latin american history
Obama might have 3 options

1. Keep the paternalistic policies in place to govern latin america
2. Listen to his assessor and do whatever they want
3. Change
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Raine1967 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. I thought Family was now allowed to travel to Cuba?
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2009/04/04/obama_to_abolish_limits_on_us_cuba_family_ties/

Seriously.. I am FAIRLY sure travel restrictions have been lifted for family members.

So what is the problem?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. That is only rolling back recent Bush policy.
The rest of us are travel banned by our own government.
The extra territorial sanctions on Cuba (failed policy, according to Mr Obama) remain.
The entire world has normal relations with Cuba. The entire world, especially Latin America, is calling for US/Cuba normalization.
Our current extra territorial sanctions policy hurts ordinary Cubans.
Our current extra territorial sanctions policy hurts American business.
Our US travel ban hurts ordinary Cubans.
The US travel ban is an abrogation of our rights.
Lack of full diplomatic relations prevents extradition agreements.

That's a short list.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #29
50. So what is the problem?
As long as the embargo is in place, no flights from Miami so to speak. Comprende?

Obama is worse than Bush. Bush promised us nothing. Obama did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
56. you can send your family money can't you?
I'd be sure to use one of those services that avoids the large tax though to make sure your loved ones get the money and not the Cuban government.

how exactly is Cuba going to pay for all of their needs?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Not so worried about the Cuban taxes. They will be used for their infrastructure.
Y'know, the world class universal health care and universal higher ed do cost money. So an increase in their tax base will mean higher pay and expanded social infrastructure that the Cuban people want.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. well since they are so well developed, what need is there to lift the embargo?
I'd certainly think more about the people I send the money to than the Cuban government though.

and its not like the US doesn't have options with regards to getting rum, bananas, and even tobacco.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. So Cubans and Americans can function on a level playing field.
So that we can live in peace as good neighbors, with mutual benefits for all. Freedom. Fairness. Right? Isn't that what you advocate?

Good one, B39. I know you don't support the US sanctions. :thumbsup:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. yeah, freedom. good one.
how is this trade going to work since Cuba doesn't allow private enterprise for its own citizens for the most part? now I realize that there are foreign companies in Cuba, but what about fairness for Cubans???? freedom???

and again, given that there are these foreign companies in Cuba already, why does Cuba need the embargo lifted?? you say they are so well developed so what's the overriding need?

and yes, I've said it before and will say it again, if the embargo is lifted, fine with me but it doesn't matter much to me either. I'd be OK with lifting travel restrictions too.

time for change in Cuba, wouldn't you agree?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #64
71. time for change in the US, wouldn't you agree?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. I'm pretty satisfied with the change from the previous administration
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 09:24 PM by Bacchus39
not many Cubans can say that about their own government.

Cuba is not on my list of pressing needs for the Obama administration.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. Some times switching presidents it's just a requirement to cover up things
like war crimes or keep the same special interest in power.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #58
80. If Cuba's healthcare is world class,
why have my wife's relatives always had to beg for medicines to be bought with money earned in the U.S. and sent to them? With a fee payable to the Cuban government in order to send it! The Cuban government actually has a net revenue from these medicines that are supplied by Cubans in the U.S. rather than a net expenditure. And this is very common and well-known; not an exceptional case at all.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #80
84. Because the US embargo makes access to meds patented in the US hard to get, if not impossible.
For example, the US's Helms-Burton law forbids Bayer AG from selling Aspirin to/in Cuba if Bayer wants to retain access to the US market.

This is how the US's extra territorial sanctions work. They work against businesses that might otherwise sell their product to Cuba.

First, the US creates a ban on sales in Cuba and then the RW policy apologists and Cubaphobes blame Castro. :crazy:


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #84
87. That's an argument for why Cuba's healthcare is NOT world class.
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 09:42 AM by eomer
I didn't say whom I blame; just disagreed with you that it is world class.

I believe that for a healthcare solution to be considered world class it must provide the medicines that are needed to treat illnesses.

ETA: Aspirin is not patented and available only by way of the U.S. The Cuban government could procure Aspirin and all the other medicines needed to treat diseases from sources other than the U.S. Clearly the Cuban system is designed the way it is in order to extract money from Cubans in the U.S.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #87
89. agreed. the tax on people sending US dollars to Cuba is greater than that other currencies
21% on dollars, 11% on other currencies. and yes, if Cuba is so world-class it doesn't need US trade. and right again, there are plenty of non-US companies that can and do trade with Cuba.

it would seem that all the other Latin American countries could more than provide for Cuba's needs. I am guessing the problem is that Cuba has no cash to purchase them. companies don't trade auto parts or pharmaceuticals for rum, bananas, and cigars.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #87
90. Then, by your standard, the US isn't world class either.
Since the US's health care system doesn't provide medicines either -unless you have insurance, but even then many have to buy medicines from Canada.


After the 1959 revolution
“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #90
91. Agreed, the U.S. healthcare system is most definitely NOT world class.
I doubt you will find many here on DU who say that it is.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,”


I agree with Ritzen that it is unbelievable -- I don't believe these statistics provided by the Cuban government. And to save you the trouble of posting it: I don't believe many of the statistics provided by the U.S. government either. For example, the U.S. unemployment rate is clearly understated.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
36. Cuba can and does trade with any other country
Why is the US so crucial to the well being of the island nation?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Helms-Burton (the primary US sanction law) sanctions companies, not countries.
Any company that does business in the US is prevented from doing business in Cuba.

This is the extra territorial nature of the US sanctions on Cuba.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #40
55. that doesn't limit all companies now does it? and certainly not countries
there are plenty of companies that can do business with Cuba. not sure how those companies would be paid though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. MIka answers this above. n/t
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 05:25 PM by EFerrari
/oops
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
34. There's nothing like a little good, old DU pouting where they want what they want
and, damn it, they want it NOW.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. Wrong. Some of us wanted it gone all along.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 05:17 PM by Mika
Just because it is news to you doesn't mean that others haven't been here, calling for an end to sanctions, all along.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. You are very forgiving of the hardship other people are made to bear.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 05:19 PM by EFerrari
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. First, when was it up to Obama to determine for Cuba how she conducts her business?
Second, we have no business talking to anyone anywhere about poltical prisoners while ours rot in abusive jails.

Obama is simply isolating the United States more, not Cuba. All of Latin America and the EU has relations with Cuba.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. So you were expecting the embargo to be lifted already, hey?
When did you get that idea?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. The world is looking to the United States to do the right thing.
Obama is not keeping the embargo because of anything Cuba is doing. He's keeping it because Miami will go up in flames for Democrats if he lifts it. This is not about human rights. It's about political patronage.

I have to believe that Obama will eventually find a way to make this right but, let's not kid ourselves as to what this is really about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Its called proceeding with care.
Just because the embargo has been going on for 50 years, Obama still just now got into office.

I think the impatience exhibited by so many is starting to wear on me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. After 50 years of failed policy and we need to proceed with care w/same policy?
If we proceeded with CARE, then the extra territorial sanctions (condemned in near unanimity by the UN annually) would be lifted right now.

What is so worrisome about lifting the century's old choke hold the US has had on Cuba?

Please tell me, why the F should we proceed "with care"? What would happen that worries you?




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. It's easy to be "careful" on the backs of helpless people.
I never want to hear a word about the Castros again that isn't balanced out by a full confession of what our government has done and continues to do to Cuba, every day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
indimuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
32. I agree with YOU and Cali, Frenchie!
Give him time...

I really can't believe so many people expect these kinds of Changes to happen so quickly!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. What are you afraid of?
Please explain your reticence for change on this? What would be the big problem?


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
45. And I really can't believe that so many people just fall into line
behind an admittedly failed policy and advocate patience with the suffering of other people. What monumental disrespect.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. That was my thought on
this latest from Obama and it is only smart learned from experience.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iandhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. Progress and change is a
slow process
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
74. Not during the revolution or civil war
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
10. Enough already....
No doubt a decision made in consultation with Rahmbo after his consultation with the Clintons after their consultation with...

?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberalmuse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
12. Cuba probably doesn't want to trade with a country that tortures, anyway.
And I don't recall Castro bombing millions of people either off the planet, or out of their homes and country. Granted, President Obama had nothing to do with these atrocities, but until the U.S. punishes the criminals responsible, and releases all Bush detainees, we have no fucking moral ground whatsoever in telling any country what they must do or not do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Well, yeah, exactly..
.. why would Cuba want to have anything to
do with us?

After all, we're just as good as every other
country, in every way....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ben_jenne Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. So do you think that the "counter-revolutionaries"
rotting in Castros' prisons or lined up for the firing squads were justified?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Shouldn't you be worrying about Paul Minor or Leonard Peltier
or the Cuban Five or Mumia? Or the nameless thousands in US prisons all over the world that have been tortured, sodomized and even killed?

Some set of priorities you got there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ben_jenne Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. So all of that justifies Castros' atrocities
2 wrongs make a right?

I suppose Fidel must be an angel and is above criticism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Why are you so concerned about Cuba when your own government is a sewer?
The embargo is not about Fidel, it's about Miami and the mafia that we have coddled there for fifty years. You don't see Obama or Clinton calling out the real abuses in China, do you? In fact, the last time she was there, Clinton went out of her way to take human rights off the table for the duration of her visit.

The embargo is not about Castro. It's about Miami money and support. The rest is just theater.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lsewpershad Donating Member (964 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Totally agree
We still think we should dictate to others. This type of arrogance is slowly creeping up behind us and will one day bight us in the behind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
25. "Hope and Change" is political doublespeak for "More of the Same". n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Raine1967 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
30. Did you Listen to what he said today?
I did. It was pretty clear that he is willing to wheel and deal... he isn't going to roll over and say it is all good to Cuba.

Why is that a bad thing? the family embargo has been lifted.

Why are people forgetting that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. No fraking American President has the right to tell us not to travel to Cuba
Perhaps Obama wants for Cuba to become once again the whorehouse for American tourists and the pedophile sanctuary for kinky Americans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
46. Because Cuba has never hurt us in any way
and pretending that Cuba has to change when in reality, Miami has to change, is hughly hypocritical. Or, maybe what politicians do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Well, Mr Obama was against the sanctions - until he came to Miami to fundraise.
Its not so much about Cuba. The issue is really about the method of funding US political campaigns. Since campaigns are not funded evenly with tax dollars, we (the USA) have a unique pandering and corrupt pay to play system. But we call Cuba's system undemocratic (when how many people even know ANYTHING about Cuba's electoral processes?).

Maybe we should clean up own own back yard before telling other nations to clean up theirs.




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Yes, that's right. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
31. Different day
but just the same old shit. I guess Obama needs to heed the wishes of Israel and The Marshall Islands :sarcasm:

Good job Europe's sanctions ended.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
37. This is the same logic that kept us in Vietnam and costs us an additional 30,000 casualties
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 05:04 PM by IndianaGreen
Obama just ate a big pile of shit!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
42. What do they call you when you keep doing what has failed over and over again...
expecting a different result?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
960 Donating Member (676 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
47. Duh. We're lucky to get Bush's most severe measures reversed.
There will be no broad changes to Cuban policy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
49. Mika, I don't see how he can move quickly.
His people have to come up with a whole new Florida strategy in order to do that. We know that's what's really at stake here.

What will it take? Do they canvas the hot districts or what? I'm trying to figure out how this would work.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. By "whole new Florida strategy", you mean fundraising? Right?
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 05:45 PM by Mika
Because the Dems pander to the cretinous RW exiles as much as do the repukes. Just look at Mr Obama's flip on the issue - as soon as he got to Miami he reversed his long standing Cuba policy position that he had discussed in all other places on the campaign trail. Clinton did it. All Florida politicians do it. This one act clearly identifies why the status quo will remain. Its not about Cuba. Its about the money (for campaigns), and the anti traders have a lot of money to contribute to Dems too. Keeping the issue unresolved (moving very very s l o w l y, and with care) keeps the money train rollin'.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Not only fundraising but all the other forms of patronage, too.
Yes, keeping this unresolved keeps the wheels of patronage going.

But, if this admin really did set out to resolve the embargo, how would they do it? They will have to -- if not in the first term, in the second one. The world won't wait.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. How would they do it? Campaign funding resolution.
Without ridding ourselves of the pay to play system we currently have, little if anything can be done. There's just too much money at play for both sides- that's why we have the primary embargo law (Helms-Burton) named after an Indiana congresscritter. His top campaign financial constituency were RW anti trade/travel Cuban-Americans and Disney corp.

Calling for Cuba to "democratize" is nothing but projection from our past and present Presidents.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. It won't wait for campaign funding reform.
That will never come out of DC and it will take years to do it locally, imho.

I think it will be more a matter of sitting down with maps of districts and coming up with a strategy for each one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Hell, its only been 50 years. We must take care. Go cautiously. A new overthrow strategy is needed.
Gotta make sure that the Cuban people won't want it, whatever it is that we offer. Privatization. Ownership society. Something designed to increase their resistance and solidarity. Increase their Axis of Good vigor in the Latin Americas. Heck, maybe we can have another big red scare with Cuba at the helm? Another duck and cover campaign with Cuba as the big bad wolf at our door.

Whatever. WE MUST MAKE SLOW CAUTIOUS MOVES. We could make a mistake if we moved too fast. Like high stakes chess. :eyes:


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #59
94. same with the issue of israel and palestine....
both parties carter to them at their own convenience. This is nothing new. I don't understand your shock and awe... anyway, when did Obama say he was going to lift the Embargo without conditions?? he always said he would meet with rogue leaders but certaintly not to have a "cup of tea".. as he seldom said, you guys are really delusional if you thought Obama was going to come in and lift the embargo at the flip of a finger..
for what anyway? just so your selfish american ass can travel there? who said you have the right to go to any country whenever you want? We love for immigrants/tourists/foreigners respect our sovereignty.. we should be humble and demand the same.. just because you are an american, doesn't give you the right to stump your nose and travel to any country, whenever you please.. others don't have the right to come here as easy and have to wait their turn for years to do so.

I agree with President Obama. He would or could lift the embargo (if ever) when political prisoners are released, when cubans have freedom of the press and democracy is slowly established.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sebass1271 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #54
66. It is the same shit with Israel and Palestians..
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 07:57 PM by Sebass1271
both parties carter to them at their own convenience. This is nothing new. I don't understand your shock and awe... anyway, when did Obama say he was going to lift the Embargo without conditions?? he always said he would meet with rogue leaders but certaintly not to have a "cup of tea".. as he seldom said, you guys are really delusional if you thought Obama was going to come in and lift the embargo at the flip of a finger..
for what anyway? just so your selfish american ass can travel there? who said you have the right to go to any country whenever you want? We love for immigrants/tourists/foreigners respect our sovereignty.. we should be humble and demand the same.. just because you are an american, doesn't give you the right to stump your nose and travel to any country, whenever you please.. others don't have the right to come here as easy and have to wait their turn for years to do so.

I agree with President Obama. He would or could lift the embargo (if ever) when political prisoners are released, when cubans have freedom of the press and democracy is slowly established.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
60. If Cuba would release its political prisoners, I'm sure it would be seen as a nice move...
...to those in the USA who could lift the embargo.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Raul has already offered them, in exchange for the Cuban Five.
Edited on Sun Apr-19-09 06:43 PM by Mika
President Obama wants more. I think that Mr Obama wants Cuba to open its veins.

Raul Castro's proposal isn't for classic spy swap
http://www.freethefive.org/updates/USMedia/USMSwap41709.htm

www.freethefive.org

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #62
97. Political prisoners for accused murderers.
I'd hope Obama did his homework before doing that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #60
70. If the US were to release its political prisoners, that would help too, i.e., the Cuban Five
and while you are at it, return Guantanamo to Cuba!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
65. You're an asshole, Mr. President!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
69. Obama must fix our fifty year old problems instantly!@
FIX IT!!!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #69
77. What the fuck is wrong with people here?!
It's like you suggest..they want a magic wand that says change. What is their deal?!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
western mass Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #69
81. Repeating this empty, meaningless phrase...
over and over again is what you do when you don't actually have a real argument.

The EMBARGO is the problem. And the problem COULD be fixed instantly: get rid of it.

It's not a problem of not having enough time, it's a problem of MAKING THE WRONG CHOICES.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
75. Get over yourself...Cuban Americans can freely travel to the country back and forfth.
Is that not worth something?! You're whinging left and right and yet this is massive change. Cubans who became American couldn't travel straight to Cuba just like all other Cubans now they can. I don't see why this is a problem. He's taking one step at a damn time. He's testing the political waters from what I can see and making reasonable changes that won't make fools go but ass crazy as they already have. I'm definitely sure he's going to make bigger changes just by his statement that he realizes that those sanctions haven't worked and won't work in the long run. That being said...I give him the time he needs since I realize that this is most definitely a politically dangerous path.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
western mass Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #75
82. Appease the Right with a few crumbs for the Left...
Bidness as usual from the corporate wing of the democratic party.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #82
85. That's crumbs when there was nothing there before?!
You've got to be kidding me. That's massive.You go from ZERO to allowing hundreds to millions of Cuban Americans the right to go back...crumbs to you means massive change over all. If we had no airline going to Cuba before, now we have more jobs opening up with the new airline that will be set in from flights all over the nation to accommodate the influx of Cuban Americans into the nation. I'd rather take some realism and realistic change than scream not enough. You can go on screaming nothing has been done when in actuality O has done more than most. Shit even President Clinton did NOTHING about it when he was in office and you call it crumbs...shit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #85
86. Huh? The Cuban-American restrictions were new, started by Bush43 in June 2004.
Prior to that Cuban-Americans could travel and remit more.

Rolling back recent Bush policy to what it was prior and calling that MAJOR change is much akin to the RW calling the sunsetting of the Bush tax cuts "an Obama tax increase".

There have been flights to Cuba out of Miami airport every day, even during the period of the Bush43 restrictions, that restricted Cuba travel for Cuban-Americans to once every 3 years with a time limit of no more than 10 days. Now they can travel to Cuba once a year, for any duration.

Americans remain travel banned by our own government.
The US's extra territorial sanctions on Cuba remain.

Not exactly MAJOR changes.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SpartanDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #86
92. He didn't just rollback to Bush's policy
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 01:29 PM by SpartanDem
There are now zero retractions on Cuba-American travel or remittances. You might want to know what policy before start bitching about it.


President Obama lifted all restrictions Monday on the ability of individuals to visit relatives in Cuba, as well as to send them remittances

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/13/cuba.travel/index.html?eref=rss_world

Obama allows unlimited travel to Cuba by relatives

http://www.latimes.com/la-fg-cuba-policy14-2009apr14,0,7328343.story
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. Umm You should.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
76. well, we just have to wait and see if Mr. President reads Galeano's book
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ShareTheWoods Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-19-09 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
78. Obama is making the right moves.
"Even so, he made it clear today it will stay in place until Cuban leaders take more overt action to free political prisoners, and permit freedom of the press and democratic elections."

The is no reason Cuba should not allow these conditions. It's Cuba move.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
79. Cubans divided on more issues than travel
Posted on Monday, 04.20.09
Cubans divided on more issues than travel
JACKIE BUENO SOUSA

jsousa@MiamiHerald.com

In the days since President Barack Obama relaxed travel restrictions to Cuba, the media have consistently reported how the issue has split Miami's Cuban community.

Please allow me to offer a clarification: Disagreement over travel has not split Miami's Cuban community. No, it's merely highlighted a social fracture that has existed for years, but which was camouflaged to outsiders by the bonds of family loyalty and the shared empathy of fellow immigrants.

The split started forming when the Mariel boatlift of 1980 and subsequent immigration waves brought Cubans who, compared to those who arrived in the '60s and '70s, looked different, lacked a hatred for Fidel Castro, were poorer, uttered a strange slang and used an unappreciated vocabulary.

The post-1980 Cubans were more likely to come for economic reasons, rather than political dissent. They didn't have traditional Spanish names like Maria or Juan or Carlos. Instead, they had Russian names, often starting with the letter Y. They too easily used words like compañero -- comrade -- which triggered angst among the earlier arrivals. Those were seemingly small differences that started forming fissures large enough to house an ideology and potent enough to break a voting bloc.

Once, a few years ago, my friend Frank, a Cuba hard-liner, was outside working in his front lawn when a lost driver pulled up in front of his house and innocently asked for directions.

''Compañero,'' the driver called out in Spanish, ``can you help me find this address?''

''Compañero?'' Frank responded, unable to believe what he had just heard -- in Hialeah, no less. ''Who the hell are you calling `compañero'?'' Frank said as he reached for a rock as if to throw it at the unsuspecting fellow, who just managed to rush back in his car and speed off.

More:
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/southflorida/story/1007814.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #79
83. The cantankerous bitter RW old guard VS. the younger generation.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
88. End the embargo.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
95. absurd...nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
96. Ah. Yet another promise broken.
America - land of the sucker.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat Apr 27th 2024, 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC