Pakistan in great danger, says Musharraf

[Coventina]

Source: The Hindu

Islamabad: The former Pakistani President, Pervez Musharraf, said on Sunday “The country is in great danger,” and added that the people should not get bogged down by minor issues and focus on bigger challenges.

“Pervez Musharraf said that the country was in great danger and advised all to shun looking into the past,” the News International reported.

(snip)

Talking to mediapersons at Islamabad airport, General Musharraf said the people playing with the Lal Masjid issue were enemies of the country.

(snip)

Military commandos stormed the Lal Masjid in July 2007 to end a standoff with armed pupils of Maulana Abdul Aziz.




Read more: http://www.hindu.com/2009/04/20/stories/2009042053871400.htm

[bemildred]

1. How about "I failed"? nt

[shadowknows69]

2. Alternate headline: "Gee, but I wish I had my dictatorship back"

[SkyDaddy7]

3. This is a very serious situation...

If that country fails and the Taliban and/or Al-Qaeda get their hands on those nuclear weapons the world will never be the same! EVER!

[bemildred]

4. So, you figure the sky is falling? nt

[SkyDaddy7]

6. Well...

If you read about what is going on over there from media other than American, talk to Pakistanis, read some books, and you will begin to understand there really is serious problems over there...So, if you want to make light of it by saying what you did thats fine there are many more like you on DU who will say "We never could have seen this coming"

...Like always.

Lets hope the sky does not fall for everyone's sake, ok?

[bemildred]

7. I have not doubt that Pakistan is in deep trouble.

I'm not so worried about the nukes. We went through this with the USSR.

[Idealism]

8. There are similar contingency plans to extradite the weapons out of the country

That is, if they already haven't been compromised by rogue elements inside the ISI...

[bemildred]

11. One hopes so.

My point was more along the lines that nukes are not really that useful, except as deterrents, unless you are like the guy below alleges and you just want to die spectacularly. And they are a bunch of trouble to keep around.

[Idealism]

14. Dear lord

That reminds me of this debate I went to at a local college. It was between a failed African American GOP state legislature candidate Allen West and a former 7 time NY state senator Mark Siegel who now chairs the Democratic party of Palm Beach County. In the middle of the debate on foreign policy, this RW-whackjob stands up and goes into a 10 minute monologue about there is a Muslim under every rock, how they play fast and loose with the devil, and that they have sleeper cells inside each community. It was interesting to see someone try to connect the dots between Hitler and Bin Laden... think "Mein Kempf" and "Jihad", was what he was getting at but he was told the wrong translation of "Jihad" in (presumably) Arabic.

Some people are just flat-out batshit insane. Pakistan only has nukes because India has nukes. MAD works to keep them in line. Other than skirmishes in the Kashmir, it has been pretty quiet relatively speaking since they both developed nuclear capabilities.

[JI7]

9. but the USSR wasn't ruled by religious extremists who think they are doing the work of God

they knew the United States would be able to strike back and destroy them. religious extremists want to be "martyrs" and rewarded in the afterlife.

[bemildred]

10. Right, they are all nuts and just want to die.

They have just been holding off hoping they could do it with nukes.
:rofl:

[JI7]

12. it doesn't have to be all, the 9/11 terrorists were patient enough to wait it out

until they were able to kill a large number.

[bemildred]

13. But you said they were nuts?

Are they nuts or are they rational? Make up your mind. What you are saying is that there are some psychos, and that the psychos are going to be the ones that get control of the nukes, and that the first thing they are going to do with them is get their asses blown away so they can get the 78 virgins. Aside for the elements of racist twaddle in that, it's a very tenuous argument.

[JI7]

16. they can be nuts yet still intelligent as the 9/11 people were

[bemildred]

17. No you cannot.

The 9/11 people were anything but nuts. They were sending a message. You can be willing to die for something without being nuts, soldiers do it all the time. Being nuts has pervasive consequences, ask someone that's been there. Even if you are a whacko, and you get some nukes, what you are going want to do is lots of dick-waving, you are going to want to enjoy your power. Those nukes are worth money, they have lots of uses, but only if you don't use them.

[JI7]

19. the 9/11 guys didn't care about money, they wanted to "martyr" themselves

they were intelligent enough to pull off something so big , even taking flying lessons.

yes, they wanted to send a message and that included killing themselves along with whatever message it was.

[bemildred]

20. No, they were willing to martyr themselves, it's not the same thing.

I already said it once, willing to die is not the same thing as want to die. If you want to die, it's easy, you don't have to go to all that trouble. We're all going to die, anyway, it's just a matter of time.

[JI7]

21. yes they were willing to die

it wouldn't matter if we could strike back at them since they would be willing to die.

[bemildred]

22. Right willing to die FOR something.

They were not nihilists, they had a cause, and the cause was not nuclear holocaust, and it was not 78 virgins either. They saw themselves as soldiers, fighting for a cause. We don't agree with their cause, it's true. But if you allow yourself to indulge in fantasies about how they were just crazy whackos it's you that is putting belief before reason.

[JI7]

23. they were crazy for dying for what they did and whatever the fuck message it was

even bigger assholes for killing a bunch of innocent people. targeting and killing innocent people.

soldiers fighting for a cause ? what cause was that ?

[bemildred]

24. I knew that would piss you off.

Have you heard of the bombing of Dresden? In WWII? You do know there have been lots of religious wars, vicious nasty ones? Nobody says THOSE guys were not soldiers. Do you know how many people have been killed in the Congo the last few years? You are confusing fanatical with nuts, again, it's not the same thing. Killing innocent people is common as dirt. I'm not defending the 9/11 guys, or what they did, I'm saying they were not nuts.

[JI7]

25. they weren't members of any military , you can debate terms like crazy, nuts , fanatical etc

but the point is that they were willing to die themselves while destroying others. the Soviets on the other hand did not want to die . so the knowledge that we would be able to strike back did help in deterring.

this was not the case with the 9/11 guys and others who think like them. as you say they are willing to die while attacking others.

and it is important these type of people don't get control of the nukes.

[bemildred]

26. "die themselves while destroying others" is kind of what soldiers do.

We already went through the "willing to die" vs "want to die" issue. This is kind of like the "they hate us for our freedoms" claim, a self-confirming belief system that does not correspond to the facts.

But we are not getting anywhere. I want to thank you for taking the time to discuss and for being civil.

[JI7]

27. and i certainly don't defend the soldiers who tortured and purposely targeted innocent people

i don't see them as just soldiers carrying out their mission or sending a message.

[bemildred]

28. Never thought you did.

Just saying one needs to understand ones opponents in their own terms, rather than just dismissing them as nuts. People almost always make sense to themselves, or think they do anyway.

[JI7]

29. i do understand them, as i said, i know they are intelligent

i'm not dismissing them at all.

and it is on their own terms which is why i odn't view Soviets with nukes the same as religious fanatics with nukes.

[PurityOfEssence]

15. It only takes a few

The very serious belief in an afterlife and ultimate rewards will cause people to do horrible things. As a liberal, I believe in letting others believe as they choose, but NOT past the point where it endangers us all.

If you don't think the prospect of an Islamic government taking over Pakistan's nuclear weapons is a GUARANTEE of nuclear attacks, then you're living in fantasyland. Even if my obvious anti-religious bigotry is misplaced and unduly shrill, the very POSSIBILITY of letting this happen is stupid beyond belief.

We've bungled the Afghanistan situation, and we're going to stomp around and make things worse.

If there is ANY chance of a fundamentalist takeover of Pakistan, their nuclear weapons should be destroyed or siezed immediately. Fuck national sovereignty in that instance, and I say this as a pretty avowed pacifist who was opposed to the Iraqi invasion from the very beginning. This is far too serious to take any chances with, and it seems to be wobbling out of control.

[bemildred]

18. I'm all for seeing to Pakistan's nukes.

I think you are full of it as far as what an Islamic government would do with them, if it got them. See the sub-thread above on whether they are nuts or not. I think the likely course is that Pakistan will fragment, unless something is done to reverse the trend. I don't expect that that means that Pakistans military is about to hand over the nukes to anybody who comes along. I do think it's quite possible that India would "take steps" if it came to that. It's not that I'm not concerned, I just take a dim view of fear-mongering about islamic fundamentalists.

[SkyDaddy7]

30. We did go through it with USSR

However, at least the Russians value life as we do and that is why MAD "Mutual Assured Destruction" actually worked as a deterent...That policy won't cut with people who think 72 virgins await them in the after life. Or dying in the cause of Allah will bring them instant access to Paradise. In my opinion there is a huge difference.

I hate the way Bush made everything a matter of life or death so now actual threats get downplayed as typical right wing scare tactics. I swear Bush and the Republicans have seriously damaged us in so many ways.

I chat with a Dr. from Pakistan and I have a Pakistani friend who runs a little "Mom & Pop" store by the house here who I talk to often. They both talk about how many in Pakistan have downplayed the threat from Islamic extremist for years. However, now they fear it could be to late as the extremist are moving in on the urban areas where they did not have traction before. They know there are extremist high within the military and the Pakistani Intelligence (ISI) that have influence that prevents the military from acting...It is unsettling to listen to them and this is why I worry. My worries have nothing to do with the old Bush Republican FEAR game, I SWEAR!

I remain hopeful but it is something that has to be of huge concern to the Obama Admin. He sure does have so much on his plate!

[iandhr]

5. What would

Dr. Strangelove do