Orthodox Jewish Community Struggles With Abuse Allegations

[onehandle]

Source: ABC News

Alleged Victims and Advocates Say Sex Abuse Common, Rarely Discussed

When Joel Engelman was 8 years old, he says, he was called from his Hebrew class to the principal's office at his Brooklyn yeshiva, a Jewish religious school. His parents had recently told Rabbi Avrohom Reichman that their son had been abused by an older boy at the school, he says. But he says the rabbi was not offering to help that day.

When Engelman arrived at the principal's office, he says, Reichman told him to close the door. He told the boy to sit on his lap and began swiveling his chair back and forth, Engelman says. Reichman then touched him, moving from his shoulders down, Engelman claims.

The same kind of abuse went on twice a week for several months before he left the school, Engelman claims in a civil lawsuit filed against the yeshiva, the United Talmudical Academy.

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=7376057&page=1

[Christa]

1. K & R

Why is it that the religious often get away with sexual abuse?

[dipsydoodle]

2. Misplaced trust I guess

x(

[Soylent Brice]

3. that's an easy question.

trust in god, therefore trust in me.

i wouldn't say misplaced trust, more so than hardwired subjugation.

[dugaresa]

6. that is basically it. People have been programmed for centuries

to believe that religious people have their best interests in mind.

[Soylent Brice]

9. pearly gates, fluffy clouds, basking in the warm embrace of a deity, or

eternal flames, suffering, degradation, and carnage.

gee, i wonder why people bought into religion so easily...

:sarcasm:

[LeftishBrit]

34. Also, very religious people often live in very small enclosed communities

Which can be wonderfully supportive when they work out well; but provide the opportunity for abuse to persist undetected, when things go wrong.

[No Elephants]

70. There are some residential religious communities in the US, but they

account for a tiny--no, infinitesimal--portion of America's population, even if you count vowed religious, like convents, where children tend not to live. Those with families are very rare indeed.

Our most notorious court cases on religious pedophilia involved the City of Boston and City of Worcester, the first and second largest cities in New England, respectively.

[The Wizard]

5. The Flip Wilson Defense

The Devil made them do it.

[timtom]

10. I believe it's a condition correlative of power, not religion.

(cf. Clinton indiscretions with intern.)

[pattmarty]

12. Isn't that kind of an oxymoron? I hate fucking religion, ANY religion.

[timtom]

14. Your statement makes no sense.

What does your hatred of religion have to do with those who seek power having a tendency to abuse that power (often in the form of sexual harassment or abuse)?

And, do you mean to imply that Clinton abused his power because he is a Christian?

[onehandle]

16. Freepers don't have the market cornered on narrow-minded hatred. nt

[pattmarty]

20. Oh, really???? My "hatred" of religion gets me labeled as a "freeper"?

Talk about narrow minded. Bet you're a loving "christian" person.

[Renew Deal]

32. A bigot is more precise.

But freeper, bigot, what's the difference?

[pattmarty]

36. I take it you're a liberal, right?????

[defendandprotect]

41. Why would you suggest that being hostile to organized patriarchal religion . . ..

is bigotry?

[Renew Deal]

52. Just look at the definition

big⋅ot   /ˈbɪgət/ Show Spelled Pronunciation

–noun a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

[PassingFair]

64. That is a LOOSE definition...

bigot
One entry found.

Main Entry:
big·ot Listen to the pronunciation of bigot
Pronunciation:
\ˈbi-gət\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
French, hypocrite, bigot
Date:
1660

: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
— big·ot·ed Listen to the pronunciation of bigoted \-gə-təd\ adjective
— big·ot·ed·ly adverb


According to your definition, anyone who despised Aryan Nation groups would also be
a "bigot".

Prejudice is the key to the word....

[pattmarty]

81. Yep. That sounds just like you.

[Renew Deal]

83. I'm sure the truth hurts.

How can you live with such hatred for those around you? And remember... hate is your word.

[pattmarty]

87. Get a fucking life, will ya????

[defendandprotect]

88. ... yes, you're defining bigotry . . . but you're not answering the question . . .

Americans have every right to be hostile to monarchies ---

every right to be hostile to organized patriarchal religions --

Religion is a private belief system -- none of us are obliged to like it nor support it.

Especially when it is brought out into the public square.

[Renew Deal]

92. So what is the question?

No one is asking you to like or support any religion or belief system. The irrational hatred thereof is what we're talking about.

[defendandprotect]

96. Here's the question repeated for you . . .

Why would you suggest that being hostile to organized patriarchal religion . . ..
is bigotry?


No . . . you're asking us not to question or challenge religion --

which presumably you see as "hatred" or "bashing" . . .

Nor is the "hatred" - since someone expressed it that way -- "irrational" . . .

it is well expressed and defined often here.

[Renew Deal]

97. Hostility and Hatred

Think about the words you're using. Look at the definition of bigotry. The person that "hates" all religions is a textbook bigot.

I haven't asked you to do anything. No one asked you to not "question" religion. We're talking about someone who said they "hate" all religions. "Hating" all religions is irrational. Maybe they meant to say dislike or distrust or something else. But they said hate.

And if you "hate" religion, then it probably doesn't stop there. Do you hate whites, blacks, asians, native americans? Do you hate gay people? Do you hate men or women? What else do you hate? Who else are you "hostile" towards? And which of these people do you consider it acceptable to "hate?" Some? All?

[defendandprotect]

100. I have thought about it . . .

that's why I used the word "hostile" . . .

I do not use the word "hate" to describe questioning and challenging of organized
patriarchal religion -- I quoted someone else's use of that word.

Hostile

–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of an enemy: a hostile nation.
2. opposed in feeling, action, or character; antagonistic: hostile criticism.
3. characterized by antagonism.
4. not friendly, warm, or generous; not hospitable.
5. a person or thing that is antagonistic or unfriendly.


There was a time when our Founders were hostile to England --
in all the senses of that word.

And, justifiably, so --


And if you "hate" religion, then it probably doesn't stop there. Do you hate whites, blacks, asians, native americans? Do you hate gay people? Do you hate men or women? What else do you hate? Who else are you "hostile" towards? And which of these people do you consider it acceptable to "hate?" Some? All?

First, on the contrary, it is organized patriarchal religion which has taught hatred for
women and Jews and homosexuals and blacks and native Americans.
So you're confused here right at the opening.

Second, the person you responded to made a choice of words which isn't my choice . . .

What I am saying is that organized patriarchal religion is the underpinning for patriarchy.
And it has been a violent expression of religion -- "introducing the cross with the sword."

What I am asking you is, why would we NOT be hostile to organized patriarchal religion
when it is brought out into the town square -- the public arena . . . ????

Why wouldn't anyone who understood organized patriarchal religion be hostile to it???

The question is, why wouldn't we see organized patriarchal religion as an enemy of
sanity and peace?

[No Elephants]

53. You're spinning. The poster said any religion, capitalizing ANY and said HATE. And, yes,

smearing all beliefs, and, by extension, the billions of people who hold, and often cherish, those beliefs, with the same brush is indeed bigotry.

In fact, making the leap from one demented abuser, who happens to be a Jew, to all of Judaism, let alone to all religions, is in itself very bigoted.

I don't know why every thread at DU that has any connection to religion, no matter how tangential, has to slam religion and believers.

This is a thread about a Jewish pedophile, something you don't hear of often. It could have led to a lot of interesting discussion and speculation, but that poster chose to bash instead, knowing his brutal, crass comment would not add a single thing to the discussion, but would hurt a lot of people here who had done absolutely nothing to him. Under what scenario is that okay, or intelligent, or not bigotry, let alone progressive?

(I"m not hurt. Frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a rat's whisker. But I know from reading at this board that a lot of other Democratic posters do get hurt and hurt enough to leave the board.)

Now, the poster certainly has a right to express his or her personal view about religion, even if that is not the topic and even if it adds nothing at all to the discussion beyond hurting people who have not attacked anyone. But other people then also have the right to label the post for what it is.

[defendandprotect]

89. I replied to the poster who suggested that being anti-religion is bigotry . . .

Again, no American is obliged in any way to respect personal religious beliefs --
nor to embrace them.

When religion is brought out into the town square we have every right to question and
challenge it -- that's what the internet is . . . a town square.

I've omitted some of your comment which seems irrelevant to my post . . .

I don't know why every thread at DU that has any connection to religion, no matter how tangential, has to slam religion and believers.

Because if you begin to think about it, our main problem is patriarchy -- and organized
patriarchal religions are the underpinning for patriarchy.

Again, religion is a private belief system -- and one of the most horrific avenues for
violence perpetrated by patriarchy in precedent-setting brutality, torture -- a moral
step backwards for humankind.

Re your wider comments on the thread, I'll look back on and it re-comment --
Edited to say that I find it hard to understand how you would think this thread would escape
harsh criticism of patriarchal religion????

(I"m not hurt. Frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a rat's whisker. But I know from reading at this board that a lot of other Democratic posters do get hurt and hurt enough to leave the board.)

Again, this is a public square . . . when religion is a topic we all have the right to question
and challenge it. Anyone who can't tolerate question and challenge to their religious beliefs
shouldn't engage in these discussions.

.

[No Elephants]

50. Well, freepers are only Republicans, while bigots are found in all groups (much as are pedophiles).

[onehandle]

15. 100% true.

Not that many around here would get that.

[Captain Hilts]

18. Intern attracted to power for its own sake. She did same with college professor. nt

[timtom]

23. You're right.

But that's another issue. If the rabbi had been seduced by the boy, that would not change the abuse of power, as the rabbi should know better.

[LostinVA]

85. Monica Lewinsky was a sexually active ADULT -- ugh

Disgusting comments.

[redqueen]

19. You cannot seriously be comparing molestation to a consensual affair. (nt)

[timtom]

21. A college professor should not have an affair

with one of his/her students. They can do whatever they want when that teacher/student relationship ends. To that extent, yes, I can make that comparison.

[LostinVA]

86. Not the same thing at all, which you know

[Name removed]

25. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

39. Organized religion is all about power and money.

Take a look around.

[timtom]

43. So, power and money exist nowhere other than organized religion?

Next!

[bemildred]

47. No, it's just that organized religion is not different.

You ought to brush up on logical inference ( edit: ) and reading comprehension.

[timtom]

48. Not only are you rude,

but your argumentation skills are in the...well, you know where. Check out a little Plato -- Euthyphro might be good for you.

[bemildred]

49. What you said is not even close to what I said.

Being rude to some people is a duty and an honor. You don't know shit about Plato.

[timtom]

51. In what respect do you claim I "don't know shit about Plato"?

You have selected one aspect of abuse of power: i.e. organized religion. That shows a clear bias. Abuse of power belongs to many realms. But the initial post to which I replied asked "Why is it that the religious often get away with sexual abuse?" I merely pointed out that sexual abuse falls within a broader, overarching domain.

The anti-religionists (yourself included) seem to want to make it specific to religion.

In Euthyphro, Socrates is looking for a sort of universal principle by which an act is adjudged impious or pious. Euthyphro makes his argument, but only in terms of specifics. Socrates keeps pushing what becomes a circular argument which ends up with Euthyphro saying he's gotta go now. He never identifies the greater principle; he merely identifies other specific instances of it.

Now, what were YOU doing?

[bemildred]

65. You deliberately misconstrued what I said.

Therefore you were very rude. You continue to do so, therefore, you continue to be very rude.

I did not "select" organized religion, a particular organized religion is the subject of the OP. I generalized from that.

I do indeed have a bias against organized religion, so what? Am I required to like organized religion?

Perhaps there is no "universal principle" by which one can judge whether an act is pious or impious. If you start with a false assumption ("there is a universal principle by which one may distinguish the pious from the impious") the rest of the argument means nothing. A false premise implies anything you like, or nothing at all.

Plato is full of such naive and dishonest arguments. So sue me.

Edit: You are quite right that abuse is correlative to power, that seems obvious really, but by pointing out that organized religions are just like other human organizations, i.e. about money and power, I am not disagreeing with you in any respect.

[timtom]

68. Let there be peace between us, then.

[bemildred]

72. Done.

I admit you know something about Plato.
:-)

[LanternWaste]

93. Jeez... I know!

Jeez... I know! You should see my pastor's parsonage-- it's a whopping 900 sq. ft. Add to that his penchant for sporty cars (he drives a 1986 Chevette), and his predilection for entertainment knows no bounds-- at least three times a year he goes to see a first run movie at the matinee showings on Tuesday afternoons. The nerve of he and his wife...

[bemildred]

98. So he's not good at it.

What do you want from me?

[LanternWaste]

103. Self-Delete

Delete.

[bemildred]

104. Wise choice.

If it helps any, I will admit that there are religious professionals that pursue their vocation in an honest and compassionate way. But they don't rise to the top much, as you just described.

[LanternWaste]

105. Thank you for your opinion

Thank you for your opinion. I will certainly give it all the consideration it's due.

[bemildred]

107. Ah, Christian charity at it's finest. nt

[defendandprotect]

40. It's a condition of patriarchal power . . . including organized patriarchal religion . . .

[timtom]

44. So, how would you categorize the several recent instances,

over the past few years, of female teachers molesting or having "consensual sex" with 14-year-olds? Did you mean to expand you term to include matriarchal power as well?

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2009/05/06/0506jupteacherarrest.html?imw=Y

And there are others from public schools.

[defendandprotect]

90. I think you answered your own question . . .

as you cite "several recent instances" . . .

Keep in mind that traditionally the majority of our teachers have been female --
and generally kept underpaid and also generally rarely promoted to positions of authority
in education -- just as an aside.

Obviously, you'd like to disprove the continuing power of patriarchy and organized patriarchal
religion --

When you can show me a female VATICAN . . . or an organization like the Catholic Bishops

but FEMALES . . . or that the majority of principals of our public schools are FEMALE . . .

come back.

This is obviously a distubed woman and a case much sensationalized by a corporate-press which
prefers to cover unusual stories rather than stories reflecting the true needs of our citizenry --
like ending patriarchy, ending corporate power, euthanizing capitalism -- and providing
national single payer health care for all.

[No Elephants]

57. Not really. Kids get abused by strangers who ask for help finding a

lost puppy. That has nothing to do with patriarchal power. That's about turning off the kid's internal alarm system long enough to overpower the kid. They also get abused by females, by siblings and by playmates. A friend of mine's career consists of treating children who abuse other children.

[defendandprotect]

91. In the end it does have to do with patriarchal power . . .

Until recently, the Vatican's pedophiles weren't even being reported to law enforcement --
how many of their victims have victimized other children?

In fact, until very recently, very few children were believed as we had courts run by males
for the benefit of males. Not that that much has changed lately!

Note that sexual harassment, humiliation and sexual torture was also part of the US torture
program -- and always a part of torture going back to the Vatican's Crusades.

And, as I recall, generally the majority of MALES in the Bush administration accepted these
torture tactics and argued for them -- while Rice -- and I have nothing positve to say about her --
tried to advise them against these tactics.

We have a still unreconciled situation of child sexual abuse attached to the Reagan White House -
"The Franklin Case" which involved sexual abuse of young males and females.
Imagine what a sense of privilege that takes to run something like that out of a government
building!

We have worldwide rising instances of kidnapping of women/females for sexual exploitation --
into the sex slavery industry. Are women doing this?

As we can clearly see, whenever we have a rise of the right/patriarchy, we have abuse of women and
children -- including sexual exploitation.

[Fumesucker]

45. Monica Lewinsky was an adult..

I'm not a huge Clinton fan but he is no pedophile, so don't try to insinuate that.

The situations are not comparable.

[timtom]

55. My point is about abuse of power.

Pedophilia can be one instance of that. Inappropriate liaisons can be another. I'm not sure how you would infer otherwise.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

58. because pedophilia is NOTHING like a power disparate relationship

and the ensuing trauma is not the same and its absolutely intellectually devoid to claim that it is similar

[timtom]

59. It is similar as to degree, not kind

[La Lioness Priyanka]

62. no its not. its not similar to degree or kind. what is similar is any power disparities

between consenting adults, which includes, wealth & age.

i have been molested as a child and i have had sex with a professor. to claim these were remotely similar is just BS. yes, maybe my professor shouldnt have slept with me due to ethics violation but i am personally glad he did. it was a whole lot of fun and years later, still makes for good stories. the time i slept with my professor is very similar to the time i slept with a much older man. they both had societal power but i clearly gave consent and enjoyed both experiences. the time i was molested was horrifying.

to misconstrue these two things to get a jab in at bill clinton is pathetic

[timtom]

66. That was NOT a jab at Bill.

That was the quickest example I could find.

And to accuse me of that is most disingenuous!

In this country, over the past 30 years or so, it has been determined by conventional wisdom that sexual relations between consenting adults is inappropriate. To abrogate that is abuse of power. In order to consummate a relationship in the workplace, at the very least, one or the other co-respondent should leave that work environment. The common theme is: person in power exerts undue influence over subordinate, be that subordinate a student of a rabbi, priest, psychiatrist, or teacher (regardless of the subordinate's age).

Child molestation is a special instance of abuse of power.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

69. child molestation is not a special case of abuse of power, its also abuse of consent

abuse of power happens in multiple ways, however abuse of consent is infinitely more important

[timtom]

71. I confess, I don't understand the distinction.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

73. i want to sleep with bill clinton so i do. granted he has more power and may have an ethical reason

to say no, but he doesnt and we have sex: possible abuse of power. however I clearly gave consent

i dont want to have sex wiht bill clinton, he forces me to have sex/coerces me to have sex: clearly abuse of power + i didnt give consent

[timtom]

77. Okay. I understand that.

(Disregard my post #75, then)

So should I have picked someone other than Bill Clinton?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

78. no. unless coercion/force were involved its not the same thing.

if i make a choice, to sleep wiht someone in power, one can argue that the someone in power has an ethical obligation to not sleep with me. but whether they do or dont, the psychological harm to me is nothing in comparison to the harm when someone violates consent

[timtom]

80. Understood.

Well taken. Well killed. Well delivered.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

82. thank you. sorry to be so harsh. nt

[Fumesucker]

61. My understanding is that Lewinsky pursued Clinton..

Not the other way around..

A great many people find a partner at their place of work and to expect people to completely ignore the opposite sex in such a situation is unrealistic. The power relationships are not always going to be equal in that sort of a situation.

For a lot of us most of what we are pleased to call our social life revolves around the people we work with, FSM knows that most Americans spend more waking hours at work than at home or out socializing. I imagine the job of being POTUS is almost uniquely isolating and I actually have a great deal of sympathy for Clinton.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

63. i would not be surprised if this were true. i had a HUGE crush on clinton when i was younger

and would have pursued him, if i was physically around him.

i would never do it now, because i am older and respect hillary and know it isnt the right thing to do but at 22 i would have done it in a heartbeat

[timtom]

67. I agree with you. It's bullshit.

But in today's organizational climate, it is considered to be an unwise move.

[No Elephants]

54. That may depend whether you are looking at it from the perspective of the abuser or of the

victim.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

56. what a bullshit comparison. even within power disparities consent is far more important

disparities in age, wealthy and social status cause all sorts of power disparities in relationships that we find acceptable. including 18 years dating 30 year olds. however, consent is much more important that just power disparities. to bring clinton into this just shows you have no idea how important consent is

[timtom]

75. As indicated in post 67, I don't understand your use of "consent"

What do you mean by consent being far more important, etc.?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

79. already explained. consent is my right to say yes or no.

[paulsby]

30. most people period do

the religious are no different in that regards.

sexual abuse is a crime wherein the perpetrator often is not exposed to prosecution, and in cases where they are , it is often difficult to prove.

[Captain Hilts]

4. Same thing happened in youth hockey in Canada. Right in Maple Leaf Gardens, unchecked authority is

something the Catholic Church, Yeshiva schools and youth hockey have in common.

[LeftishBrit]

35. Good point!

[get the red out]

7. "Can't happen"

The (fill in the blank authority figure) is a trusted person, does good work, and could never be guilty of something like this. And if they are guilty, WE might have to look at why we put such trust in them. No self examination wanted.

[xchrom]

8. indeed -- institutional power is a heady thing.

and conservative institutions especially.

doesn't have to be a church or a religious institution -- but it probably does have a rather strict hierarchy.

that's what both attracts abusers and hides them.

without being able to bring any evidence -- i'm guessing the old and very conservative soviet union blossomed abusers as well.

[pattmarty]

11. Jeez, the Catholics don't have a monopoly on this racket, I guess.

[Mari333]

13. repressed patriarchs are dangerous mofos. nt

[No Elephants]

60. Oh, please. Pedophiles are found in all groups, including atheists.

[defendandprotect]

94. Not so fast . . . "almost all child sexual abuse is committed by men."

The right-wing "Family Research Council" notes/confirms findings that "almost all child sexual abuse is committed by men."

AND . . .

For those who don't know it --

Hetereosexuals are 100X more likely to sexually abuse children --

QUOTE . . .
From "same-sex -- marriage in the United States Focus on the Facts" -- Sean Cahill, PH.D
Lexington Books -- 2004
See: Footnote

A 1998 Study in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that 90% of pedophiles are men, and 95% of these individuals are hetereosexual.

Research has indicated that gay men and lesbians are less likely than heteeosexual to sexually abuse children.

Perhaps the most egregious and damaging claim promulgaed by anti-gay groups is the claim that homosexuality is intrinisically linked to pedophiia and child sexual abuse.
The social science research on sexual orientation and child sexual abuse clearly disproves the claim that homosexuals are more likely to molest children. A 1998 study in the Journal of the American Medical Assocation found that 90% of pedophiles are men, and 95% of these individuals are hetereosexual. One researcher explained this statistic by noting, "Gay men desire consensual sexual relations with other adult men. Pedophiles are usually adult men who are sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children. They are rarely sexually attracted to other adults. In fact, research has indicated that gay men and lesbians are LESS likely than heterosexuals to sexually abuse children. Two studies that examined the sexual orientation of convicted child molesters found that less than 1% in one study and 0% in the other were lesbian or gay. One psychologist reviewed the existing social science literature on the relationship between sexuality and child sexual abuse and found that "a gay man is no more likely than a straight man to perpetrate sexual activity with children." Further, "cases of perpetration of sexual behavior with a pre-pubescent child by an adult lesbian are virtually nonexistent."

Gay rights activists, like all advocates for children's welfare, oppose child sexual abuse and support equitable age of consent laws that help prevent and punish such abuse.

At least 110,000 children are waiting to be adopted in the US. Approximately 588,000 children are currently in foster care. Barring gay men and lebians from adopting or foster parenting decreases the number of potential suitable homes for children in need.
Children who remain in foster care for much of their childhood, as do tens of thousands of American children, are more likely to have emotional problems. Some children in foster care live in 20 or more homes by the time they reach the age of 18. Barring gay men and lesbians from adopting or foster parenting is not simply unjust and unethical; it also decreases the number of potential suitable homes for children in need.
Research shows that children raised by gay and lesbian parents are not disadvantaged vis-a-vis their peers raised by hetereosexual parents.

Footnote 65 -- p.123
A review of 352 medical records of children evaluated for sexual abuse during a 12-month period at a Denver chidlren's hospital found that less than 1% had been abused by a gay man or a lesbian. Of 269 adult perpetrators of child abuse identified among the 352 cases of abuse, only two were gay or lesbian. The vast majority of the children in the study (82%) "were suspected of being abused by a man or a woman who was, or had been, in a hetereosexual relationship with a relative of the child." And the review concluded that in this sample, " a child's risk of being molested by his or her relative's heterosexual partner is over 100X greater by someone who might be identifiable as being homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual."
Jenny, C., and Roesler, T.A. (1994)
Are children at risk for sexual abuse by homosexuals? Pediatrics. 94(1).p.44.
In an earlierstudy of convicted male child molesters in Massachusetts, none of the 175 men were found to have an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation orto be primarily attracted to other adult men.
Groth, A.N., and Birnbaum, H.J. (1978).
Adult sexual orientation and attraction to underage persons.
Archives of Sexual Behavior.7(3).pp.175-181.

Also : The right-wing "Family Research Council" notes/confirms findings that "almost all child sexual abuse is committed by men." UNQUOTE

[AlphaCentauri]

99. I had a friend who was abused by hetereosexuals and is gay

any statistic why many of the children that have been abused by heterosexuals, when they grow up identified them self as gays?

[defendandprotect]

101. I don't know that that is true . . .

I think that some male victims of Catholic priests have suggested that the abuse
created questions in their mind about their sexuality . . . not that they thereafter
identified as homosexual . . . but that with a loss of self-esteem and internalizing
fear, shame, guilt - that was just another point of stress.

You have to remember that these things happened to them when they were very young
children -- with no background knowledge or experience to put any of this abuse in
context. And now their first experience is being assaulted by a male - a male priest!

In looking at the perpetrators -- Catholic priests -- in some of the cases they seem to
suffer arrested development - they seem to literally remain young and childish in their
thinking -- especially in regard to sexuality.

Some are totally insensitive - without empathy for others -- like Father James Porter.
Hope I have that name right -- who showed some of the most bizarre behavior . . .
One Catholic nun recalled him tongue kissing a young girl/third grader -- openly in a classroom!
Porter also sexually assaulted a young boy who was in a body cast having just had back surgery!
After he left the priesthood, he married and had children. Evidently, he was making sexual
advances to the young girl who was baby sitting his children. And last I heard they thought
he might have sexually molested his own children. His victims were over 200 or more.
Constantly moved from one parish to another.

[DemBones DemBones]

17. Regardless of religion, 1-2% of all men sexually abuse children or

adolescents, usually members of their family, including their children and stepchildren. Testosterone is to blame.

[pattmarty]

22. Since you quoted % for "all men" (without a link), what is the % of...........

..............males associated with a religion? It has to be higher, just reading about the Catholic Church's problems.

[Captain Hilts]

24. Press coverage is not an accurate indicator of frequency. nt

[pattmarty]

26. You didn't answer my question. Where did you get your "figures"?

And it ain't just testosterone that makes certain men do these things. In case you hadn't noticed all men have testosterone and for that matter so do females.

[redqueen]

27. You're talking to a different DUer there.

Just FYI.

[dugaresa]

29. i think people (men and women) who prey on children pick professions

or interests that give them access to kids.

Religious vocations
Teaching
Volunteer coaches

I think the religious professions are the ones that up to recently provided the best "cover" because people didn't think of a priest, rabbi or minister as a sexual predator. Nowadays, people are skeptical and the predators have to find other methods.

[happyslug]

33. In fact the present "hysterical" about Pedophilia started in the Public Schools

When Pedophile cases first hit the news it was the 1970s and it was the Public Schools that were hit. Public Schools fell off the radar screens of most people as the Courts ruled the Schools were NOT liable for the acts of their Teachers under the Doctrine of Sovereign Immunity (i.e. you can NOT sue the State for the actions of its employees UNLESS you can show such act was the intention of the School to employ such employee and the teachers have sex with their students was NOT why the teacher was employed so the School was not liable, you could only sue the teacher and most teachers were either fired by the time the lawsuit was filed OR married and even if you won a judgment you could NOT collect in it).

In the early 1980s, Child Care centers were all the rage, they were private business so Sovereign immunity did not apply, but most were mom and pop types centers and lawyers found out they had no money so why sue them?

Finally in the mid 1980s lawyers found the Catholic Church, which had about the same level of pedophilia as the Public Schools but again NOT subject to Sovereign Immunity AND unlike the Day Care Center had assets to pay off any judgments. Thus the main reason the Catholic Church ended up as the main target of such lawsuits, lawyers like taking on cases they can collect on any judgment they win. Lawyers could NOT Collect from Public Schools and Day care center but they could from the Catholic Church so lawsuits were filed and judgments or settlements were entered.

Now the courts have required most CRIMINAL actions to be brought within two years of the Criminal act (Or if under 18 within two years of the time you turned 18). Most victims of abuse do NOT accept the fact that they were abused till they mid 20s and thus Criminal Charges are rarely filed (The statute of Limitation had run on them, the courts tend to view Criminal Statute of Limitations as doing a public good so strictly enforced). The Courts have taken a more liberal view on Civil Litigation, saying one can sue within four years of turning 18 OR whenever a person finds out about the harm done to him (Which may be years after he turned 18). California has dropped all statures of limitations but the Courts of California has started to say such dropping of the Statute of Limitation is only for crimes from the date of the change NOT for crimes done before that date (i.e. the Courts want people to file within a reasonable time of the crime, and ten years after one turned 18, when the crime occurred when you were 12 seems to long for the Courts i.e. to be able to bring the charge 16 years AFTER the incident the court have problems with, especially if that is when the charge is first made).

While changes in the Stature of Limitation seems to have affected some cases, most cases were affected by the concept of Sovereign Immunity and since those die a quick death unlike the long drawn out cases against the Catholic Church, they are quickly forgotten while the long drawn out cases against the Catholic Church are consent remembers of the crime.

My point is, if you take in consideration HOW little Public Schools abuse was covered in the papers (mostly do to the short time such cases were in the courts before being dismissed as to the Schools) and how long the Civil Suits against the Catholic Church can last (Five years if you luckily) we view the Catholic Church as the greater abuser even through its rate of abuse is the same as the general public which means it equals that of Public Schools and Public School teachers.

[dugaresa]

37. that makes a lot of sense regarding the attention the catholic church gets

regarding this issue. they have the money that can be tapped in these suits.

[happyslug]

38. The Catholic church is NOT innocent, for they should have know better.

The Catholic Church has survived 2000 years and this is NOT the first time such complaints have been made. The Church used to have a system to try to minimized these incidents, but then it started to break down in the 1960s. To many Bishops used the ideas of Vatican I so they did NOT have to discipline their friends (Who are the body of Priests they came from and associate with on a regular basis). It is the same reason Police have a hard time turning one another in, you are friends and the hardest thing to do is to discipline a friend. It is easy to go after someone you hate or don't know, but when the accused is a friend people try to avoid doing the needed discipline. This is the problem with the Bishops and the Police and both need outside forces to keep the power that be ready and able to discipline their friends when it is needed.

[happyslug]

28. Testosterone is rarely to blame

Testosterone gives men their sex drive (as while as Body Muscle) but HOW that sex drive is directed is done by the brain itself independent of Testosterone. Most pedophiles had themselves been victim of pedophilia (There are exceptions but I am going with what most researchers believe are 90+% of the perpetrators). Since it was done to them as Children, once "of age" themselves they adopt the same policy for themselves. If a victim learns that the action was "bad" he tend NOT to adopt it as part of his sexual tendency, but involves consoling (and often CYS involvement).

Now, testosterone could be blamed except for the fact most pedophiles go after a victim within a certain age bracket. In one case I read an Eight year old was ordered to visit his father while he was in Jail for having sex with a 12 year old. Why? The psychologist at trial said the eight year old was NOT in any danger, for the father only liked 12 year olds and therefore would have no desire to have sex with the eight year old till he was closer to age 12. Once the Child turned 10 or 11 then a question of sexual assault on the child would be an issue but would not be till the child turned that age.

I have heard of other cases of the same type, most men who do have sex with children tend to go after 12-14 years olds. In fact when the Catholic Church in the US released its records for the last 50 years as to accusation of sexual acts by priests they was NO victims younger then age 10, the victims peaked at about 12-13 years of age, then decline (Thus the Catholic Priests followed the same pattern as the population as a whole).

My point is Testosterone had little to do with WHO the men went after as sexual partners, Testosterone provides men their sex drive, it does NOT determine who they have sex with.

[Fumesucker]

46. Yep, ebebophiles are far more common than true pedophiles n/t

[defendandprotect]

42. More likely it is patriarchal privilege and likelihood that they won't be arrested . . .

Children are dependent upon their parents and are not going to risk their love and

support by delivering news they, themselves, likely don't really understand.

Many are confused and ashamed -- not so different from what happens even with teenaged

victims and women raped.

[snooper2]

31. Seems like the Fundies in all religions have same problem...

Talaban raping young boys-
Priest abuse-

now Orthodox Jews....

""They kept telling me, 'Don't go to the police, don't do anything. We've dealt with this before,'" with other teachers, he said. "It really shocked me."

Sick fuckers

[No Elephants]

74. Please see Reply # 60. And how do you decide whether a pedophile is a

a "fundamentalist" Jew or a Reconstructionist Jew or a fundamentalist priest or a liberal priest--or for that matter, an atheist priest? (Yes, there are such things.)

[No Elephants]

76. People's biases blind them to the facts that are all around them, every day..

[LostinVA]

84. And the Amish, and Fundie Protestants

Most conservative religions have this -- it's been known for years.

[defendandprotect]

95. Heterosexuals are 100X more likely to sexually abuse children ....

and, I think it's important for us to understand this ---

Hetereosexuals are 100X more likely to sexually abuse children --

also . . .

Also : The right-wing "Family Research Council" notes/confirms findings that "almost all child sexual abuse is committed by men."

* * * * * * * * * *



QUOTE . . .
From "same-sex -- marriage in the United States Focus on the Facts" -- Sean Cahill, PH.D
Lexington Books -- 2004
See: Footnote

A 1998 Study in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that 90% of pedophiles are men, and 95% of these individuals are hetereosexual.

Research has indicated that gay men and lesbians are less likely than heteeosexual to sexually abuse children.

Perhaps the most egregious and damaging claim promulgaed by anti-gay groups is the claim that homosexuality is intrinisically linked to pedophiia and child sexual abuse.
The social science research on sexual orientation and child sexual abuse clearly disproves the claim that homosexuals are more likely to molest children. A 1998 study in the Journal of the American Medical Assocation found that 90% of pedophiles are men, and 95% of these individuals are hetereosexual. One researcher explained this statistic by noting, "Gay men desire consensual sexual relations with other adult men. Pedophiles are usually adult men who are sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children. They are rarely sexually attracted to other adults. In fact, research has indicated that gay men and lesbians are LESS likely than heterosexuals to sexually abuse children. Two studies that examined the sexual orientation of convicted child molesters found that less than 1% in one study and 0% in the other were lesbian or gay. One psychologist reviewed the existing social science literature on the relationship between sexuality and child sexual abuse and found that "a gay man is no more likely than a straight man to perpetrate sexual activity with children." Further, "cases of perpetration of sexual behavior with a pre-pubescent child by an adult lesbian are virtually nonexistent."

Gay rights activists, like all advocates for children's welfare, oppose child sexual abuse and support equitable age of consent laws that help prevent and punish such abuse.

At least 110,000 children are waiting to be adopted in the US. Approximately 588,000 children are currently in foster care. Barring gay men and lebians from adopting or foster parenting decreases the number of potential suitable homes for children in need.
Children who remain in foster care for much of their childhood, as do tens of thousands of American children, are more likely to have emotional problems. Some children in foster care live in 20 or more homes by the time they reach the age of 18. Barring gay men and lesbians from adopting or foster parenting is not simply unjust and unethical; it also decreases the number of potential suitable homes for children in need.
Research shows that children raised by gay and lesbian parents are not disadvantaged vis-a-vis their peers raised by hetereosexual parents.

Footnote 65 -- p.123
A review of 352 medical records of children evaluated for sexual abuse during a 12-month period at a Denver chidlren's hospital found that less than 1% had been abused by a gay man or a lesbian. Of 269 adult perpetrators of child abuse identified among the 352 cases of abuse, only two were gay or lesbian. The vast majority of the children in the study (82%) "were suspected of being abused by a man or a woman who was, or had been, in a hetereosexual relationship with a relative of the child." And the review concluded that in this sample, " a child's risk of being molested by his or her relative's heterosexual partner is over 100X greater by someone who might be identifiable as being homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual."
Jenny, C., and Roesler, T.A. (1994)
Are children at risk for sexual abuse by homosexuals? Pediatrics. 94(1).p.44.
In an earlierstudy of convicted male child molesters in Massachusetts, none of the 175 men were found to have an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation orto be primarily attracted to other adult men.
Groth, A.N., and Birnbaum, H.J. (1978).
Adult sexual orientation and attraction to underage persons.
Archives of Sexual Behavior.7(3).pp.175-181.

Also : The right-wing "Family Research Council" notes/confirms findings that "almost all child sexual abuse is committed by men." UNQUOTE

[panzerfaust]

106. Interesting.

[sakabatou]

102. This is embarassing