Imam killed in FBI sting was shot 21 times: report

[cory777]

Source: Raw Story

By Daniel Tencer
Monday, February 1st, 2010 -- 12:13 pm

A Detroit-area imam who died in a shootout with the FBI in October was shot 21 times -- at least once in the back -- and found by police lying down with his wrists in handcuffs behind him, says a local Detroit news report.

The FBI has described Abdullah, whose mosque served some 25 families, as "a separatist Muslim intent on overthrowing the United States government," according to the New York Times, but the bureau has not alleged any terrorist activity against him, and has charged that Abdullah was involved in fencing stolen goods. Federal authorities had been monitoring Abdullah "for years," the Times reported.

Now a medical examiner's report, obtained by Fox Channel 2 in Detroit, shows the imam had been shot 21 times, including at least once in the back, and his body was found on the ground with his wrists handcuffed behind his back.



Read more: http://rawstory.com/2010/02/imam-killed-fbi-shooting-handcuffed/

[Turbineguy]

1. Hmmm.....

obviously a suicide. The handcuffs are a giveaway.

[peace13]

3. Hmmm.. ...usually there is some duct tape and a noose as well. n/t

[cloudbase]

5. Actually, it probably was a suicide. Of sorts.

"FBI agents and local police surrounded a warehouse on Miller Road near Michigan Avenue , believing Abdullah and others were inside.

When agents entered the warehouse, four of the men obeyed orders to surrender, but Abdullah opened fire and was shot to death, FBI agents said at the time."

[Xipe Totec]

6. That explains the handcuffs and the shot in the back, sure! n/t

[MellowDem]

21. If he was surrounded...

someone could have shot him from behind or at some point in the gunfight, easily. And I'm guessing he was handcuffed after being shot.

[Xipe Totec]

25. Yes. That explains it, I'm sure... n/t

[Prometheus Bound]

36. No need to guess. It says the police found him with his hands cuffed behind his back.

[MellowDem]

75. Are the police the FBI?

Did they come in after FBI? I don't know.

[No Elephants]

39. Handcuffed after having been shot 21 times? Can't be too careful, I guess.

[cowman]

50. Standard procedure

to handcuff a suspect even if the person is shot and down for police safety

[Turbineguy]

7. "Shot while trying to escape"

I don't think they're allowed to use that one.

[New Dawn]

34. He was being attacked by an FBI dog. So he shot at the attack dog to defend himself.

The FBI then murdered him.

[Pavulon]

44. That would make a great defense at trial, before he was found guilty

now it is just an example of sillyness. If you shoot a gun off at a police dog, or a police officer during an arrest expect to get shot. Welcome to reality.

Same rules hold true in europe.

[Romulox]

58. One can't claim a "self-defense" right to violently resist arrest, "Imam" or no. nt

[No Elephants]

38. LOL. Can't be a suicide. He didn't pin a note to his chest.

[Demeter]

2. There Are Times I Lose All Hope for This Country

[Pavulon]

11. I would not do that over a raw story headline. They forgot to add

he was in a gunfight with the agents when they lit him up.

[The Stranger]

49. No, that really doesn't seem to be accurate. Your posts seem to embellish the facts.

And the facts here do not reflect well on law enforcement.

[Romulox]

63. LOL. It is precisely accurate. It's your post that is 180 degrees incorrect. nt

[EFerrari]

27. The FBI is not this country. We are.

[Demeter]

28. And who are the masters, and who the servants?

[EFerrari]

29. The FBI is more like a gang for hire.

Unfortunately, they've always been in the employ of people like the BFEE.

[Romulox]

59. Bullshit. This is my community, and nobody wants armed thugs like this phoney baloney "Imam" here.

:hi:

[EFerrari]

61. You chose your own adventure.

:)

[Romulox]

62. Right, and YOU go stir up shit you know nothing about in YOUR OWN community.

:) backatcha! :hi:

[EFerrari]

64. For the record, I was talking about the FBI, not "your" community.

It's the Federal Bureau of Investigation, not the Romulox's Neighborhood Bureau of Investigation.

:)

[cory777]

89. at least they got him?

[EFerrari]

94. "Getting" someone is not a principle of our system of justice. nt

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

96. Right, but arresting criminals is, and when those criminals shoot at law enforcement

law enforcement has the right to shoot back.

[UpInArms]

4. how dare these people that are committing suicide blame

everyone else for their deaths! :sarcasm:

[Pavulon]

10. Guess he should not have shot at the feds..

the whole story is not all that raw...

[UpInArms]

26. justice is swift when you are the judge, jury and executioner

not so raw - just wro..ng

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

76. You expect the feds not to respond when being fired upon?

[UpInArms]

82. you betcha! Let's have a 21 gun salute!

all hail the hail of bullets!

[Pavulon]

109. Dead is dead. Regretfully a K9 was killed before he got stamped(nt)

[Pavulon]

8. Shoot at the fbi and die, next

would you prefer the agents he was shooting at die? Sounds likes a nonstory. 3 guys, 7 shots per, dead in about one second.

[Salmonslayer]

15. Agreed

there could be many different explanations. this story need more details.

How did a handcuffed man engage in a shootout with the agents?
Was he really handcuffed before being shot?

As soon as shots are fired at the FBI anything goes. As far as we know he did not deserve any better.

[tclambert]

18. The story on the NBC affiliate (WDIV channel 4) was that they handcuffed him afterwards,

which they say is standard procedure with a wounded suspect. Cover him, kick his gun away, handcuff him, then check for a pulse.

[Pavulon]

19. Ever seen that chase video where a guy on a motorcycle hits a bus

the guy hit a bus going 55 at least. Police cuffed him, even though he was probably dead or on his way out.

[Prometheus Bound]

41. It's a neat trick to do that while your hands are cuffed behind your back.

[Pavulon]

46. Who cuffed him?

he shot at them they killed him. Pretty simple. Who cares 21 shots or one in his brain, dead is dead.

Like I said shooting at police during an arrest, bad idea.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

77. He was cuffed after being shot. n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

52. Dead in one second.

Then why the handcuffs? Is it SOP to handcuff dead people?

[cowman]

54. Yes

it is standard procedure for officer safety

[Pavulon]

70. It can take a while to die

unless he was brained he would be in the process of expiring after being shot.

[NeoConsSuck]

69. Sort of like Ruby Ridge?

my only regret was more fbi agents didn't buy it on that day.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

78. Not really.

No unarmed people were killed, much less any unarmed people with a baby in their arms, and the raid, as far as we know, appears based on solid police work, and was not a hatchet job initiated by a jealous neighbor...

And hey, look, I don't like everything the FBI has ever done, but to wish death on them is a little sick.

[NeoConsSuck]

81. A little sick?

shooting an unarmed woman with a baby in her arms might be consided a little sick.

I stand by my earlier statement.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

84. So let me get this straight

It's okay to wish death upon FBI agents in general because of the actions of...one? Sorry, I try not to cheer lead for murder, whether of a federal agent or otherwise.

[NeoConsSuck]

87. Focus on your reading comprehension skills

Go back to my original post and read it very s l o w l y. Shouldn't be too difficult, it is one sentence. I was referring to the agents on the scene on that *particular day*.

Whether you wear a badge or not, if you're going to act like a rabid pitbull, sometimes you'll pay for it with your life. And the jury in that Ruby Ridge trial didn't convict anyone of murdering an fbi agent, so obviously they felt the killings were justified. Maybe the jury was also 'a little sick' ?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

88. Yes, your original post containing a highly inaccurate comparison

What would you like to discuss about it?

[Bluebear]

9. "a separatist Muslim " - he wanted Michigan to secede?

[yava]

14. The 25 families of the Imam were against his separatists views

and faithful to the United States. So they made a citizens' arrest and handcuffed him and called the FBI.
But he had magic powers as an Imam and had the FBI shoot and the FBI and then he was caught in the cross-fire.
Thats why he was shot 21 times in the back, the side and the front.
The Imam was victim of his secret powers.

[Bluebear]

24. "The firefight lasted only four seconds, and four FBI agents fired "an average of five shots each"

!

[Pavulon]

45. That is a slow fire drill, your mom could do that at the range with a days practice.

nothing exceptional. Bad idea to shoot at the feds.

[bemildred]

12. Sounds like another police murder. nt

[Pavulon]

20. He shot at the police, they shot him, a lot.

now he is dead. Pretty reasonable outcome.

[bemildred]

22. They shot him while he was handcuffed, that is murder, against the law.

They should all be up for 2nd degree homicide.

[Pavulon]

23. NO they cuffed him while he bled out on the floor

that seems a bit more plausible. I would assume there is a crime scene replete with things like a weapon he fired at them and a body with all types of holes through it. If he was lit up in cuffs there would be marks on the floor where 40cal rounds fired by the FBI hit the floor.

No mention of those.

Good thing he did not hit any FBI agents.

[bemildred]

32. You don't know that.

Your affection for extra-judicial killings is obvious. The OP says:

"and found by police lying down with his wrists in handcuffs behind him"

Here are the questions that need to be asked:

""First of all, did the FBI agents follow established procedure when they shot the imam 21 times? How was the imam shot in the back? Was it proper procedure to handcuff either a dead body or a mortally-wounded suspect? If the agents found the imam alive following the shooting, did they call for medical assistance? All these questions need answers," he said in a press release."

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cowman]

51. Sounds to me

like you are just anti-law enforcement. Standard procedure is to handcuff a suspect for police safety then check for a pulse which i have no problem with but you obviously do. I work closely with police in Las Vegas as part of my job so i know what their policy is as far as taking a bad guy into custody whether alive or not. Bottom line is he shot at the FBI and he paid a price for it. Not very smart

[EFerrari]

67. Unless you were there, you don't know what happened.

We do know, however, that the FBI has been caught over and over lying their @sses off.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

79. Well, if THAT isn't the greatest cop out in history...

Unless you have specific evidence that contradicts law enforcement on this, you really don't have much of a case (past your own biases).

[bemildred]

83. You sound like a police lover to me.

I am OK with law-enforcement, some of it anyway, an orderly society is a very good thing, but your average cop looks like someone who is not on my side, he is looking for a reason to arrest me, give me a ticket, or work out his bad day at my expense. Are cops public servants or protectors of the wealthy and the powerful? When cops become more rigorous in their own adherence to the law and ethics and morality, I will back them all the way, until then they can put up with my dislike and my distrust.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

85. Or perhaps it would be wiser of you to judge all cops individually

rather than making blanket assumptions about them?

[bemildred]

92. You have no sense of irony, I take it?

You called me just "anti law-enforcement" without a qualm?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

97. You seem to be confusing me with another poster

Read the above. I never called you "anti-law enforcement".

[bemildred]

101. You are correct. Mea culpa. nt

[Salmonslayer]

31. Your soo quick to condem the FBI agents without

knowing all the facts.

Do you really think he was handcuffed by the agents and then shot?

[bemildred]

33. Yes, I do. I have not doubt that they would.

What are you, naive?

[Pavulon]

47. What factual basis do you have to believe that.

do you believe it is possible to determine is a person was shot in cuffs? He shot at them during an arrest, so they shot him.

Next.

[EFerrari]

65. The FBI wouldn't LIE to us, would they? I have 2 words: Fred Hampton

The Assassination of Fred Hampton: How the FBI and the Chicago Police Murdered a Black Panther (Lawrence Hill Books; November 1, 2009)

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/290956-1

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

80. Of course, in that instance you can point directly to evidence which indicates

that law enforcement lied, whereas in this case, you apparently can't (or else you would've done so by now). Apples and oranges.

[wayne fontes]

74. The handcuffing wa SOP

I think the FBI was looking for a terrorist and found a petty thief who was determined not to return to prison. Four other guys at the warehouse surrendered without violence. Only Luqman Ameen Abdullah was harmed in the action.The criminal complaint can be viewed here. If you take the time to read it you can see that Luqman Ameen Abdullah swore he would never be taken alive.


http://www.debbieschlussel.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/dearbornblackmuslimcplt.pdf

[Yuugal]

13. Obviously resisting arrest.......

[tclambert]

17. Worse than that. He shot their dog.

[boppers]

37. He shot a cop... who happened to be canine.

Suicide by stupidity.

[tclambert]

16. All in four seconds.

The article says: "The firefight lasted only four seconds, and four FBI agents fired "an average of five shots each" at the suspect."


That's a lot of hits for four seconds. But they say multiple shooters were firing at the same time. Maybe one shooter was behind him. And they say they handcuffed him after the shooting. People are trying to generate outrage over the shooting. Yet it's hard to see where the FBI agents did anything wrong. Don't expect any charges.

[No Elephants]

40. I don't think anyone on this thread, pro or con, is expecting any charges.

[Hulk]

30. American justice....

It doesn't pay to be Muslim in this "land of the free"...

[Pavulon]

43. Go shoot at the police, see what happens in germany.

here is a hint the embassy will arrange to ship your body back in the hold of a commercial flight. This is pretty standard.

Shows how a headline can stir up the masses. Like reverse fox news.

[Socal31]

138. It also doesnt pay to not know what you are posting about.

[RollWithIt]

35. His soul was still dancing.... nt

[Tim01]

48. "Religious zealot starts a gunfight with the FBI. Loses."

Better headline.

[Festivito]

53. Do you think he shot an FBI dog just to shoot a dog? /nt

[Tim01]

60. No, I think he killed a cop dog on purpose. What is your point? nt

[Festivito]

66. Your posts assumes the Imam started the altercation, not the cop dog.

Wondered what if any evidence you might know or have.

[Tim01]

72. "but Abdullah opened fire and was shot to death"

Good enough for me. Very much good enough for me. It looks to me like a religious zealot got himself killed by shooting at cops. It doesn't matter to me if that isn't good enough for you. 1 cop dead, 1 religious zealot dead. 4 other guys who surrendered to the cops didn't kill anybody OR get themselves shot. That is a pattern.

[ShortnFiery]

91. No, not good enough. We don't know but that the Police Dog was mortally wounded by the FBI

there was so much gunfire going on in that trailer and bullets were ricocheting, they need to examine the deceased police dog and determine WHO SHOT HIM?

Also, how did the Imam get shot in the back?

This is a public relations DISASTER.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

98. Last I heard the DOJ was going to look into this

not necessarily because anything seemed fishy, but simply to ensure everything was done by the book on a high profile case.

With regard to who shot the dog, I would assume this would be extremely easy to tell based on the firsthand accounts of those at the shooting as well as the trajectory of the bullet.

With regard to how a bullet hit this guy in the back, I would also assume that someone being hit by that many bullets might be knocked around quite a bit by the force of these shots, and could easily have been spun to one side or another, thus making it rather easy for a bullet to hit him in the back.

And no, it really isn't a public relations disaster - not for anyone willing to consider the actual evidence vs. clinging to flashy but misleading headlines (as some in this thread have done).

[ShortnFiery]

102. Any time a report such as this is held up for three months, it's a public relations nightmare.

We are blessed with MODERATE Muslims within our communities. Therefore the LAST THING we wish to do is give even the slightest appearance of impropriety.

And this case, in particular, stinks to high Heaven.

How in the hell can the FBI, DOD and CIA recruit moderate Muslim operatives/soldiers when we go tear assing around with Biblical Gun Sights as well as THIS (deny the public access to the coroner's report as well as the arrest documentation)? :(

As an American, I want us to recruit Muslims to OUR SIDE, i.e., ending terrorism. However, it makes it all but impossible when we show such blatant disregard for the USA communities with which they reside in.

A public relations nightmare? Hell to the YES! :grr:

[Romulox]

55. The OP is irresponsible / over-sensational. This man was NOT handcuffed until AFTER being shot.

:hi:

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Little Star]

57. Police dogs are considered law enforcement just like an agent is.

[ShortnFiery]

103. Yes, and lighting up this guy for "revenge" may be the stupidest act since the K-9 may

very well have been hit by a ricochet bullet from the Police or FBI.

I believe that it was "a poor judgement" to send the K-9 into the middle of a fire fight. I'd consider putting the guilt for the animal's death on his handler.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

167. You're assuming the dog was released after the fire fight began

The evidence thus far suggests otherwise. Look, I get the whole not liking law enforcement thihng, but inventing scenarios simply to smear them is a bit ridiculous.

[fascisthunter]

68. 21 shots? Was the Imam Armed at the time?

oh... he was handcuffed... nevermind.

[Pavulon]

71. He shot the police dog, and was shooting at the time they lit him up

raw drama.

[ShortnFiery]

104. You don't know that for a fact. There needs to be a necropsy on the K-9 to

ascertain WHO (Police/FBI/Iman) killed the animal. DISASTER happens when the Police and FBI are not in direct communications and go off half cocked.

If they anticipated a fire fight, why in the hell did they send in the K-9 to begin with? That was beyond STUPID.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

168. K-9 units are often used to apprehend suspects

Why you think this is so shocking is beyond me.

[Magleetis]

106. Anytime there is a post

that deals with weapons and death you show up. Why are you so fascinated by weapons and killing? Just curious.

[Pavulon]

112. Because most people are ignorant. They hear 21 shots and their only POV is movie

I hear 21 shots and think 4 officers firing 10 shots and scoring 5 or so hits. That tends to be the leo average.

Most people see this guy who is all jacked up shooting at the police dropping after one hit and then taking 20 hits on the ground. Reality is a pistol round is not a stopper unless it breaks pelvis, spine, or brain.

Wife works in an emergency room. Guys walk out after taking multiple hits in the chest.

[Tim01]

73. You are pretty uneducated.

Cops now days are trained to fire until the thread is no longer a threat. It is nothing unusual for a person to keep going after they have been shot a few times. A person with a handgun can fire about 4 or 5 rounds per second. 1 handgun will hold about 15 rounds of ammo. 4 officers, 3 seconds, is 30 rounds of ammo. I don't know how many cops he was shooting at, but you should see the math now and understand how these things can go.
Handgun bullets are not that effective in stopping people who don't want to be stopped. A bullet has to cause damage to specific things to very specific things to actually force a person down. And it isn't caused by bullets through muscles, or lungs, or guts, even a bullet through the heart takes some time. Plenty of time for officers to continue shooting at the guy trying to kill them.

Nothing unusual for a deer to run 50 or 100 yards after being shot through the heart with a powerful large caliber hunting rifle. I saw a deer run 50 yards with a hole the size of a golf ball all the way through it's heart and lungs.
People do the same kind of thing on occasion. But instead of running away they are shooting at innocents.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

86. Wrong.

He WAS armed, and was handcuffed AFTER being shot.

[ShortnFiery]

90. Handcuffed ... after being shot 21 TIMES. ... Outstanding?

:crazy:

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

99. What is it about "standard operating procedure" that you don't get? n/t

[ShortnFiery]

121. I fully understand S.O.P. but I also copy when some action is asinine given the

circumstances. A dead corpse with 21 bullet holes does not need to be SECURED. That's just what those of us who VALUE PROFESSIONAL and COMPETENT law enforcement would deem *basic common sense.*

You have a larger community of MODERATE Muslim worshipers. We, the American People WANT these thoughtful people to believe that America stands for justice, not an OVERKILL type raid and/or massacre.

Again, a public relations nightmare. There are so many Muslim people who are PATRIOTIC AMERICANS. We make it hard for them to believe in our beloved country's stated VALUE that "all men are created equal." When we show inklings of revenge it harms our Nation's reputation, both at home and abroad.

[Pavulon]

124. He shot at them, and then he died. That happens in every country.

like turkey or qatar. If you shoot at their police (muslim, jew, or christian) they will shoot back. Common sense.

My wife has done surgery on a man who the police shot at least 12 times and he walked out of a NC hospital in 14 days. Punched lung, damaged liver, all fucked up. She was there because he took a round in his cheek. Still selling crack to this day.

[ShortnFiery]

131. It's obvious that you are hung up on "the shooting" and not attending to the aftermath.

The whole situation - from the planning stages of this raid on out was FUBAR.

Piss poor prior planning that led to a public relations nightmare.

We live in the USA where we can and SHOULD expect better planning and performance from our law enforcement professionals.

I have the utmost respect for the Police and FBI, but when a mission is planned and conducted in what appears to be a amateurish way, there should be discipline.

These men could easily have been arrested without the KILLING and DYING.

Poor leadership is the reason.

[Pavulon]

135. Sounds like they reacted to him shooting their k9

and ended up in a firefight. Have not seen any real info on who reacted and what he was shot with. He made his choice, like his buddy h rap brown, who killed police officers. Again I feel for the dog handler and his loss.

[bemildred]

136. Well, the OP calls it a "sting". I've been wondering what the"sting" part was?

Everything else sounds like they beseiged a warehouse.

[Pavulon]

139. He made the choice to fire. His call.

The fbi documented illegal weapons and stolen goods. Maybe he did not want to join h rap brown in jail? Who knows, bottom line, dont shoot at the police when they come to arrest you.

Even the cop killer brown was arrested. Because he did not resist arrest violently.

Dead guy, deport the rest of his family and friends back to whatever shithole they came from and move on.

[bemildred]

140. But that's not a "sting".

You know what a sting is, and it isn't just going after a suspect. Going to arrest some guy is not a "sting". A sting involves some sort of trick.

[Pavulon]

141. Yeah, the dog bit him and he shot it. So they shot him, neat trick.

seriously this guys is not worth the combined time spent on this thread. He fired a gun while being arrested and is now dead. Welcome to "how to get shot" 101. Will happen in any western country.

[bemildred]

146. Well, you seem to have a simple-minded view of the world.

I wish you good luck with that. When an article says "sting", with no apparent explanation, I want to know why? I don't share your implicit trust of all that the government and it's minions choose to do. Faith in the government is really sort of unamerican in my view. It is certainly true, obvious, that shooting at cops is an unhealthy occupation, but it is not a 'sting".

[Pavulon]

151. google fbi imam shooting, plenty of story other than shit source here

the guy was a fuckup. he was under surveillance. He resisted and got shot. very simple. The guy was a target of a federal investigation in weapons and stolen property. There is plenty of detail in the real news media.

shame about the dog.

[bemildred]

152. Right, it a cop does it, it must be OK. nt

[Pavulon]

153. If you shoot at a person, expect them to kill you

france, germany, turkey, the reaction is the same. This is pretty standard.

[bemildred]

154. Did you figure that out all by yourself? nt

[Pavulon]

155. That and if you wear that much denim, and are not Canadian, you have problems(nt)

[bemildred]

156. Ah, so you do see the FBI as a problem.

Always a pleasure when we can agree.

[Pavulon]

157. the FBI appears to be one of many problems in his life., we agree(nt)

[bemildred]

158. Well, his death, I would say.

Anyway, we can both support a vigorous investigation of the circumstances, I'm sure.

[Pavulon]

160. I do want to know why any man

who does not drink Moosehead, love hockey more than his wife and kids, and calls a snowmobile "skidoo" was ever wearing that much denim. Seriously, I do support investigations, the truth is always worth finding.

[bemildred]

165. Well, I don't drink Moosehead, think hockey is stupid, would not have a snowmobile if it was free,

and I go top to botton in denim, all the time. On the other hand, I'm white.

[Pavulon]

171. Not intended as anti canadian oppression!

if you are indeed from the provinces please take my canadian stereotyping as the joke it was intended to be! Have a good day!

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

169. Who's saying that?

All I'm saying is that if a cop does it, it is not always necessarily wrong. Which is apparently an extreme position?

[bemildred]

170. Well, not everybody here seems happy with those of us who question what the FBI did.

I can certainly agree that there are plenty of good cops, and just because you are a cop, it does not mean you are corrupt, dishonest, or wrong. Colleen Rowley was an FBI investigator, and I have the highest respect for her, just as an example.

[ShortnFiery]

163. How damn stupid. Sending in a dog on a guy who's wanted on weapon's charges.

That's totally incompetent irregardless of whose bullet(s) actually killed the K-9.

Dereliction of duty to send in a dog on a suspect YOU KNOW is armed. :thumbsdown:

[bemildred]

166. Well, see, I think that's the "sting", but I'm not sure.

It might have been the fencing allegations too, but nobody says.

[ShortnFiery]

143. You are only speculating from the Police/FBI best case scenario, not the facts.

I'm approaching it from a different angle.

We don't know what happened until the investigation is complete. Maybe not even then.

[Pavulon]

147. Yeah the police go and murder people every day.

common sense. I expect an investigation, but will not be surprised when it determines that he shot the dog and they lit his ass up.

21 shots, 200 shots, who cares. He is dead.

Do feel bad for the dog handler.

[ShortnFiery]

164. No, but based on past experience, I know that there are "good and bad" within any profession.

I don't perceive one Police Officer's report, unverified, as "the voice of God."

I respect law enforcement but there are corrupt members of EVERY profession.

Give me verification - professionalism based on good judgment an corroboration via witness and peer review. The forgoing I can FULLY respect.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

93. Why would Obama and Holder have an Imam murdered?

That is who the FBI works for after all.

For the murder/execution theory to be correct is to imply Obama and Holder are either:

A) blind to occurs in their own branch of government

B) complicitous

Sorry, but I'm not in on the CT on this one.

[EFerrari]

95. CT? Oh, good grief. The establishment has some history

of going around modern Democratic presidents. See Hoover and JFK.

It's really not a theory if there is already a track record, is it?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

100. A track record that ceased 46 years ago? That's your argument? n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

105. Hoover has been dead for over 35 years

When was the last time the FBI went around a Democratic President?

[EFerrari]

107. Oh, let me see. What about when President Clinton actively wanted to go after AQ

and Louis Freeh was taking men off the case?

ETA: You could start with this thread if you are really interested in Louis Freeh:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6635178

[Pavulon]

116. He was in the US, If he was found in some 3rd world shithole

with a hole in his head that would be plausible. And legal.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

108. That hardly constitutes solid evidence in this instance

All it would take is one report reaching Obama's desk and heads would/will roll if this were really an execution.

I hardly think someone as professional and compassionate as Obama would remain encapsulated for very long.

BTW - I remember your screen name from a thread I had started. You had very kind and awesome advice for me. TY :hi:

[EFerrari]

111. I don't claim any special knowledge of this case or of Obama.

But rather, I'm pointing out that the FBI has a history. :hi:

[ShortnFiery]

115. Honestly, what I don't understand is why they couldn't of nabbed this Imam ...

in a different, more certain and less volatile venue? If they wanted him arrested, why didn't they grab him on his way back from the grocery store? It would have been easy to swarm him with even S.W.A.T. if they knew he was violent and armed. Why did they all converge on this place when they could have taken down the suspects SEPARATE from their known frequented areas? That way the Police and FBI control the situation. THEN they could have seized the weapons separately. These firearms still could have been linked to Imam and others without such a "show down."

Didn't we learn anything from the botched raid on the Branch Dividian Compound in Waco? :(

[EFerrari]

117. Yeah, you know what the FBI learned? No consequences.

Same as they learned after murdering Hampton, after Ruby Ridge and that's what they continue to learn.

[Pavulon]

122. They lost a dog, that was a consequence.

regretfully the man was able to kill a dog before being shot dead. You realize we have to pay to replace that dog? Seriously, if you shoot at the police in any country you are going to die. Germany, France, whatever, even the UK. They will shoot back.

[ShortnFiery]

133. We don't know WHO killed the dog. Geeze!

:crazy:

[Pavulon]

137. I would bet on the guy who he was biting..

who now has lots of extra holes in his body. Pretty safe bet.

[ShortnFiery]

142. You've referenced facts not in evidence from what I've discerned from

this story, we don't know much.

[Pavulon]

148. google it, family wants another autopsy to say the dog bit him

like it is some defense. either way he instigated his own death by firing a weapon.

[ShortnFiery]

162. The bullets that killed the dog have not been examined. Lots of facts not in evidence.

:shrug:

[EFerrari]

125. Oh, and I forgot Bruce Ivins. They stalked him and destabilized him,

harassed him to death and STILL have no case against him as the Amerithrax perp.

No consequences.

[Pavulon]

119. That would be the active shooter principle

once someone starts killing people and shooting at you use force to kill them. Waco is a different matter, not comparable to an arrest of this guy.

If he was shot by guys with pistols they were not looking for a fight. If he got lit up by swat guys they they MAY have had other options.

Of course the dead guy had the option not to shoot the K9 during an arrest. He could have saved us the trouble and just shot himself. Or surrendered.

If he was armed and reacted in any situation he was going to die, just a matte of how many real people died in the process.

[ShortnFiery]

123. There's been no necropsy on the K-9. We do NOT know that the Imam shot the animal.

But since we are in the phase of speculation, it wouldn't be hard for me, an animal lover, to see some Police ASS-U-MING that is what he did.

Again, why did they send the K-9 in the middle of a fire fight? They were arresting these men for weapons. RED FLAG ANYONE? I'm sorry, but I put this bust on the K-9's handler. When you KNOW that there's firearms violations, it's INCOMPETENT to send in your K-9 partner.

Further, why was there a need for a shoot out when they could have arrested these men "out in the open" with S.W.A.T.?

Many questions need to be answered ... we probably both have valid points but covering up information is 100% UN-SAT.

[Pavulon]

127. Hard to arrest a person when they are shooting at you..

again real shame about the dog. We all make choices, when he decided not to surrender and shoot, he decided his fate.

[ShortnFiery]

145. If you would have read my post above, you would know that it would have

been "less risky" for all involved if they would have arrested this man on his way home alone. The S.W.A.T. or Police Officers would have swarmed him and no casualties would have occurred.

But it's so much more fun to just "send the dog in" especially since they knew this guy was also fencing weapons. That was flat out incompetent, i.e., to send in a dog on an armed man.

[Pavulon]

149. Actually a warehouse is a great place to do that

rather than the street where innocent people could be shot. The dog is better than a human life but still more valuable than a controlled pair from a rifle. They cant kill him until he resists. He could have surrendered.

[ShortnFiery]

159. We disagree. eom

[bemildred]

110. The talkbacks on the OP are interesting too .... nt

[bemildred]

113. North Hollywood shootout

A blast from the past ... I thought of this mainly because I remember them waiting while Matasareanu "bled out".

---

On the morning of February 28, 1997, after months of preparation, including extensive reconnoitering of their intended target—the Bank of America branch on Laurel Canyon Boulevard—Phillips and Matasareanu loaded five illegally modified fully automatic rifles: three Romanian AIM rifles (an AKM copy), a modified HK91 and an AR-15. They also possessed two 9 mm Beretta 92F pistols, a .38 caliber revolver, and approximately 3,300 rounds of ammunition in box and drum magazines, and made their way from their apartment to the bank in a white Chevrolet Celebrity.<14> They wore their full-suit body armor, as well as metal trauma plates to protect vital organs, and they took the barbituate phenobarbital to calm their nerves.<15>

Phillips and Matasareanu arrived at the Bank of America branch office at the intersection of Laurel Canyon Boulevard and Archwood Street in North Hollywood around 9:17 a.m., and set their watch alarms for 8 minutes, which was the amount of time they estimated it would take for law enforcement officials to respond. Phillips had been using a radio scanner to listen to police transmissions to determine this timeframe.<15> However, as they walked into the bank they were spotted by officers in an LAPD patrol car driving down Laurel Canyon, and the officers radioed in a possible 211, code for an armed robbery.<16>

Inside the bank, Phillips and Matasareanu forced the assistant manager to open the vault after firing at least 100 rounds to scare the approximately 30 bank staff and customers<4> and to discourage resistance.<17> They were only able to get $303,305, instead of the expected $750,000 because the bank had altered the delivery schedule.<13>

At 9:38 a.m. Phillips exited the bank through its north doorway and Matasareanu through its south doorway. Both encountered dozens of LAPD patrol officers who had arrived after the first-responding officers radioed a "shots fired" call.<18> Television news helicopters responding to the "shots fired" LAPD dispatch arrived minutes later, and, despite being shot at by the gunmen themselves, broadcast throughout. SWAT commanders used the live helicopter broadcasts to pass critical, time-sensitive information to the officers on the scene.

Phillips and Matasareanu engaged the officers in a firefight, firing armor-piercing rounds into the patrol cars that had been positioned on Laurel Canyon in front of the bank.<14> The patrol officers were armed with standard Beretta 92-type 9 mm pistols and .38 caliber revolvers, and some also carried 12-gauge pump-action shotguns, but the body armor worn by Phillips and Matasareanu was strong enough to resist penetration.<13> Multiple officers and civilians were wounded in the seven to eight minutes spanning from when the shooting began to when Matasareanu entered the robbers' white sedan to make a getaway; Phillips remained outside the vehicle and continued firing on officers and police and news helicopters with a HK91, which used a larger cartridge than their modified AK47s; after a couple minutes he reslung it and switched back to the AIM.<13> A tactical alert was issued, and 18 minutes after the shooting had begun, a SWAT team armed with MP-5s and AR-15s arrived; at this point officers commandeered an armored truck which they used to extract wounded civilians and officers.<13>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

[Pavulon]

114. They were securing the scene

BTW that guy took hits from a rifle and took time to expire. A rifle round like the one fired into that piece of shit does much more damage than a pistol round. So that kinda lends credence to the logic of the guy shot the K9, got lit up with handguns, the .40cal (the one the guy who shot those officers in seattle took in the chest and walked away from) then dropped. He was injured but not dead yet, so they cuffed him.

Anyway , real shame about the dog.

[bemildred]

118. Speculation is such fun, isn't it?

I remember the North Hollywood thing quite well, Matasareanu took quite a while to die. They made one Hell of a mess. In the case of those two, I could be a little more understanding, they went out looking for trouble. Too many movies. I get the impression a lot of people watch too many movies.

[Pavulon]

120. Those guys are the reason police now carry rifles in their cars.

So when guys do that the can return fire with weapons that may actually kill them.

[bemildred]

126. You are a master of the obvious today.

I'll bet you knew that even without reading the Wikipedia post.

[Pavulon]

128. Um yeppers, learned all about the stoner rifle

in BCT. Tends to do a bit more damage than the 9mm delivered by the sidearm. Common sense, dont shoot at the police.

[bemildred]

130. Yep, you see a lot more people armored up these days too. nt

[Pavulon]

134. No idea, I live in a pretty safe place.

most of the people the wife sees are involved in drug crime. They are generally hit with handguns. Most live. I can tell you that when I was deployed I was very happy to have a carbine in the vehicle rather than just a (raggedy old) sidearm. The A2 was a bitch in HET vehicles. Years ago the M4 was not all that common in the NG for Engineers so it was a comforting thing.

I digress, if I knew I was going into a situation where I had to fire a weapon, I would prefer a rifle, if no 105, mortars, or gunship support was available...

[ShortnFiery]

129. Outstanding.

Rifles for our Police and their defense are very appropriate. Megalomaniac law enforcement officers assuming facts not in evidence and "acting out" ... not so much.

These men could have been arrested and their weapons seized without such a USELESS firefight. You could see it coming ... any knowledgeable law enforcement supervisor could anticipate this disaster.

Something was very wrong with this raid from it's inception - people "in leadership positions" need to be fired. I won't hold my breath. :(

[Pavulon]

132. Those fuckers walked out and went full auto

that is not the normal response to a police presence in a bank robbery. The police had no way to prevent that. Now going into arrest a guy and having him end up dead is a bad thing. Once he decides to start shooting I would rather him end up hit 70 times from a fusillade of fire from 6 guys with m4's than one officer die. It was his call, he made it, and dies for it. Reality strikes again.

Arresting people has risks, it would be safer to hit him in the head with a 308 round to prevent any discussion. LEO's dont have that option. As long as police have to confront people some will choose to react violently.

[ShortnFiery]

144. Wow! This is really you? Somehow I would hope that the leadership of the FBI/Police

forces would NOT be WIRED for bloodshed, but positive results, i.e., uneventful arrests.

There were better "scenarios" from which to pick up these men.

But you already knew that, didn't you?

[Pavulon]

150. Are you talking about hollywood or the guy in a WAREHOUSE?

somewhere there are no bystanders. Unless they had no element of surprise arresting him indoors makes sense. so does sending a dog instead of an officer. In law enforcement that is a reasonable thing, in other non domestic circumstances a fragmentation grenade would work just fine.

They couldn't shoot him first. They have to confront to arrest, so if it went from verbal, to hands on with the dog, and he shot the dog well this is a pretty reasonable outcome. Shame about the dog.

[ShortnFiery]

161. You are constructing a scenario that has not been delineated by the facts.

Let's see IF anything substantial comes out of the DOJ investigation?

[Pavulon]

172. Hopefully the truth and common sense meet there (nt)