Dutch party gives nod to coalition deal with Wilders

[pampango]

Source: BBC

A pact to allow Dutch centre-right parties to form a government with the support of anti-Islamist populist Geert Wilders has cleared another hurdle. The Christian Democrats (CDA) ratified the deal at a meeting on Saturday by 68% in favour, with 32% opposed. However, two CDA lawmakers remain opposed and could yet derail the deal when MPs vote on it later this week.

The agreement, which ends months of deadlock, includes plans for budget cuts of 18bn euros ($24bn; £15bn) by 2015; curbs on immigration; and an increase in the number of police officers.

The deal has angered some CDA MPs who do not want to work with Mr Wilders.

He goes on trial in Amsterdam on Monday on charges of inciting hatred with his film Fitna (division). The film juxtaposes the Muslim holy book, the Koran, with the 9/11 attacks in which nearly 3,000 people in the US were killed in 2001.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11459404

---

Budget cuts, curb immigration, and an increase in police - sounds like a Tea Party (with a dose of repub rhetoric thrown in) budget brewing now in the Netherlands.

[Cirque du So-What]

1. Goes to show ya...conservatroids can arise in places previously assumed safe for progressive thought

I see so much complacency from DUers in places they assume to be unassailable bastions of liberalism *cough*ScottBrown*cough* - in some cases bordering on bigotry as they haughtily ridicule all the residents of a particular state or region of the country. People who live in glass houses & all that shit.

Even the most liberal cities have conservative strongholds in their suburbs. Truth is, it can happen anywhere - as evidenced by conservative gains in Canada and now the Netherlands.

[DFW]

2. This was sadly predictable

For a long time, it has been an unwritten law in the Netherlands not to pursue violent crimes committed by immigrants,
in the name of compassion and tolerance. At some point, this supposedly liberal stance was bound to bring about a reaction
from fed-up citizens who were fed up with being sitting ducks. People who never would have given the far right the time of
day are slowly lending them an ear.

Tolerating violent crime is not being "liberal," and singling out one or more ethnic groups for de-facto immunity is
not "tolerance," but sowing the seeds of right-wing reaction. These seeds are now bearing their predictable, ugly fruit.

[Mimosa]

3. Geert Wilders is actually a European liberal

Geert Wilders is a classic European liberal who is scared to death that accommodation for the beliefs and customs of fundamentalist anti-gay immigrants will take the Netherlands backwards.

[pampango]

6. Wilders is no liberal and all Muslims are not fundamentalists anymore than all Christians are.

Wilders party belong to the far right coalition in the European parliament, as does the British National Party, the National Front in France, Jobbik in Hungary and others.

The left in the Netherlands routinely protests his party and he was banned from entering the UK to speak to an event sponsored by the British National Party. Even 30% of the center right party putting together the coalition voted against cooperating with him due to his far right politics.

In France something like 1 of every 2,000 Muslims wears the veil. My guess is the percentage is similar in the Netherlands. Most Muslims are, like most Christians, decent people going about their lives. They are not some sneaky group of "others" who are trying to take someone's country away. It is just something that the right wing uses to scare voters into supporting them. Fear of "others" works for the right in Europe just like it does here.

[Mimosa]

12. Not exactly.

You don't know that my best 2 friends in the US and my close family doctor are observant Muslims. And since 2004 I've known somebody who actually works in Wilders party and is a close friend.

I understand and appreciate Sufi Islam because I have a deep education in it from my BFM. And the Wahabbist strain is equivalent to the extreme right fundimentalist Christians in this country.

[LeftishBrit]

11. He is no liberal.

Firstly, he is not just against fundamentalist Islam, but all of Islam (which is far from the same thing). And he whips up all sorts of scare stories about a takeover by Islam; 'soon there will be more mosques than churches'; etc. Secondly, he is not even just against Islam but against immigrants, especially non-Western immigrants. He has called for a five-year moratorium on immigration by non-Western immigrants.

And also he is generally right-wing: cut taxes and spending; 'restore educational standards with a greater emphasis on the family in education' (usually a code for RW policies in education); etc. He is in favour of 'administrative detention' for terrorist suspects (Guantanamo, anyone?)

If you can tell a person by the company he chooses: when he visited America he was hosted by Republican Senator Kyl and addressed the Conservative Political Action Committee and the Republican Jewish Coalition (he isn't Jewish, but he's obviously Republican in spirit) and possibly other Republican groups. When he visited the UK - after an ill-judged and unsuccessful attempt to ban him - he was hosted by members of UKIP, a fringe political party to the right of the Tories.

[Turborama]

13. As Scurrilous put it, Geert Wilders & Pam Geller are big pals.

Posted here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4511859#4511885

[Mimosa]

15. That's not good.

I doubt Wilders knows all that much about Geller.

[Turborama]

16. I think he knows exactly who she is

Instead of spending so much time defending him, check out what he's been up to lately: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4511859

[muriel_volestrangler]

26. He knows her well, and praises her

Look at what a 'libertarian republican' site say about her interview with him:

Wilders praises Geller and the libertarian work she does at Atlas Shrugs. Geller responds by calling for a more united worldwide liberty movement. And Wilders enthusiastically endorses the idea.

http://www.libertarianrepublican.net/2009/02/atlas-shrugs-pamela-geller-interviews.html

(and note he praises Tom Tancredo and Reagan, and condemns Obama. He's a far right winger, and the only thing to be said for him is that he supports gay rights.)

Listen to what he says about Islam (not just fundamentalists, all of Islam) in that interview. He says it's fascist. He says it's evil.

She uploaded that to YouTube in Sept 2008; by 23rd February she was hosting an evening for him: http://europenews.dk/en/node/20159

He came to a right wing demonstration against the Islamic Center near Ground Zero. http://www.geertwilders.nl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1712&Itemid=1

I wonder who introduced him? Ah, Pam Geller. Basically, she's his best American friend.

[BB1]

4. It's not all that bad.

Wilders is hardly right wing. On most issues he's more left leaning than most, except when it comes to immigration of muslims.
Budget cuts would have to be made by whomever came to power - the 18 bln were calculated in by every party.
And lastly more police is not a luxury. Apparently some 70% of all reports of crimes are not even looked at. They disappear in some weird circular filing system.
Besides that Wilders is not too keen on getting our military back into Afghanistan, nor any other country.

Get me right - I didn't vote for him. But I think he's a much better choice at this moment than the 'left wing'. Don't make the mistake thinking the Dutch 'Left' is anything like the US 'Left'. Even our right wing parties would be considered 'Left' in the US; the real leftie parties are shaming the working part of the population by only sticking up for the non-working part.

That said, I think critics are right to question our politics - we do yours too;) But don't just pay attention to Wilders; Queen Beatrix is the prize. (Hint: Bilderberg)

[Mimosa]

5. One of my friends is *very close* to Wilders

In the netherlands that party has been fighting for classic European liberal culture. The Netherlands faces a 'population bomb' from all the immigrants offspring. And their fundamentalist culture is not predisposed to appreciate liberalism, much less wine, beer, secularism and tolerance of varying lifestyles. The fundamentalists want to cover up women and they don't like gays.

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. Maybe you should look again at what you're saying

A "population bomb" from immigrants? And then you give immigrants (in general) a "fundamentalist culture". You paint with as broad a brush as Wilders does.

What are the figures for population that you fear so much? In 40 years' time, the UN thinks the Dutch population will have increased from 16,783,000 to 17,334,000. What's the problem?

[Turborama]

23. It's not surprising that she paints with as broad a brush as Wilders

One of her friends is *very close* to him, don't you know.

[Turborama]

18. I'm sorry but I have to say that I could never be friends with someone who works for a neo-Nazi

I need to pick up on these two terms you used: "a 'population bomb' from all the immigrants offspring" & "their fundamentalist culture". You might not have meant it to read this way but to me that reads like something someone who hates Muslims would say. You do realize they are human beings (using the label "immigrant offfspring" sounds like you're dehumanizing them) and only a minority of Muslims are "fundamentalists". Don't you?

[Turborama]

7. Dutch coalition embraces Wilders' (anti-Islam Freedom party)

Source: Al Jazeera English

The Christian Democrat (CDA) party in the Netherlands has voted to co-operate with an anti-Islam party, removing another hurdle to forming a conservative Dutch government.

At a convention in the city of Arnhem on Saturday, a 68 per cent majority of the 5,000 CDA-members cast ballots in favour of working with the Freedom Party, although there was significant opposition.

The Christian Democrats plan to join a minority cabinet led by the pro-business VVD party, with tacit support from Geert Wilders' anti-Islam Freedom party. The trio have announced a blueprint to curtail immigration and make major spending cuts.

CDA members of parliament will make a final decision next week, with two party dissidents possibly still opposed.

Maxime Verhagen, the CDA leader, said he was delighted by the result of the poll. "The convention showed clear support for the agreement with the VVD," he said.

Read more: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/10/201010215412798517.html

---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziQyFbEJUXU">Wilders draws protests in Germany (VIDEO)

http://www.youtube.com/user/AlJazeeraEnglish">AlJazeeraEnglish | 02 October 2010

The far-right Dutch politician Geert Wilders, known for his anti-Islam and anti-immigration views, has given a speech in a hotel in Berlin.

"Islam is not a religion," Wilders said on Saturday before some 450 supporters. "It is above all a dangerous political ideology," he said.

One Wilders supporter, an American woman living in Munich since 1972, said the burqa did not belong in Europe.

"I'm offended when I see these women with these black things all over themselves. They look like aliens, they don't look like they belong on this planet. What are they doing in Europe?

"They can wear those clothes and chop off hands and beat their wives and kill their daughters and do whatever they want in their countries and not in my country and not in Europe," Caroline Rausch said.

"I just feel that Islam is evil," she added.

The event was organised by René Stadtkewitz, who until recently was a member of the CDU in Berlin's city parliament, but he was ousted by his party for inviting Wilders to the German capital.

Stadtkewitz hopes to found the German branch of the Freedom Party, called Die Freiheit (freedom).

Outside Wilders' hotel in Berlin, people held banners and waved flags, one with pictures depicting Wilders with an Adolf Hitler-like moustache.

Back in his native Netherlands, Christian Democrats are in revolt over their party's plans to involve him in a coalition government.

Al Jazeera's Laurence Lee reports.

[DCKit]

8. Things going on there that the average American can't relate to...

From what I understand, they've got a huge immigrant population that refuses to integrate.

As much as I detest the RW propaganda and the rise of nationalism, the Dutch have been making concessions for decades and getting nothing back. The anger and pushback there is far more understandable than that of our teagaggers.

Sorry if I'm pissing anyone off, but I've been following this for several years and I get it.

[Turborama]

9. "a huge immigrant population that refuses to integrate". Please elaborate on what you mean

by "refuse to integrate".

And this, "the Dutch have been making concessions for decades". Seeing as this news is about the rise of a self professed anti-Islam party in Holland, what concessions have the Dutch been making to Muslims "for decades" and what do you think they should be "getting back" for them?

Seeing as you say you understand their motives, what specifically makes the Dutch angry about Muslims and what makes them want to "pushback"?

[Mimosa]

14. ITA , DCKit, because I actually know Europeans

The Dutch are afraid of losing their secular society which includes the liberal tradition of tolerance.

[DCKit]

19. Whaaa? Sharia law doesn't appeal to the Dutch? Go figure.

Seriously, it's that disparity that I've seen grow over the past ten years or so. It's disturbing, but nobody forced the immigrants to migrate there, either.

Living in DC for the past twenty years, I welcome diversity. As my neighborhood has become more diverse, it's become more safe, quieter and more livable. However, put a woman in a Bhurka out on the street here, and she'll be cajoled (if not harassed), mostly by black woman, to shed it and get a life.

Simply put, the trappings/myths of the Muslim religion that some would carry to their adopted countries are not acceptable to those cultures. The Dutch, especially, have worked very hard to let any potential immigrants know exactly how open their society is and that immigrants will be expected to accept those changes.

And no, to the previous request, I will not waste my time disputing your baiting.

[Turborama]

20. You mean you refuse to answer my questions. I'm not "baiting".

It says more about what your answers would be if you think my questions were "baiting".

[DCKit]

21. Read the thread. I'm not expending any more energy on you. But thanks for playing. n/t

[Turborama]

22. Yeah, I read your reply to my OP and wanted you to clarify some of your statements

Seeing as you were making yourself out to be some kind of expert. However, you've refused to back up what you said so it'll be marked off as a fail.

(edited to fix a typo)

[DCKit]

24. Whatever. I'm busy. n/t

[Turborama]

25. LOL

Fail confirmed.

[DCKit]

27. Reed teh thred. I'm not the onlee 1 with teh same opinonion. You're langige?

Fail? I don't think so. But I don't carry water for anyone. Do your own research, or pay me.

It's pretty clear you're trying to pin me down with statements that might get me banned from DU.

You have just now become the first person I've ever blocked - as much as I've been tempted by so many others. You are antagonistic.

[Turborama]

28. That's right, instead of actually answering specific questions mockery is always a good fallback.

Avoiding someone's direct and clear questions is a fail.

You call it "baiting". However, I'm just asking some pretty simple questions in response to your reply to my OP. Every time you come back with your very defensive and accusatory non-answers you make it pretty clear you are easily capable of statements that might get you banned from DU. That's your problem. Not mine.

[LeftishBrit]

10. Uggghhh.

I loathe Wilders, and I loathe it when parties go into coalition with far-right types. A downside to certain forms of proportional representation.