Venezuelan students protest university law

[naaman fletcher]

Source: AP via Yahoo

CARACAS, Venezuela – Police and soldiers fired water cannons and plastic bullets Thursday as thousands of students protested against a law passed by Venezuela's congress that increases government powers over the country's universities.

At least three people were injured, including a news photographer who was treated for a cut to the head after being hit with an object.

Dozens of police and National Guard troops in anti-riot gear blocked student protesters outside the Central University of Venezuela in Caracas, firing plastic bullets into the air.
...

"They won't take away our right to protest," the protesters chanted. "Long live the university! Out with the military boot!"

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101223/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_venezuela_chavez

[virgogal]

1. Hugo's quite a guy.

[JackRiddler]

75. The AP propaganda doesn't even describe the new law.

Very suspicious, from an organization that provides nearly daily hit-pieces that only ever give the perspective of the oligarchic opposition.

Anyone have crowd shots of these supposed thousands of protesters?

Here is an excerpt from
http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/5893

The law is based on the principle that the government has the responsibility to provide free, high-quality, public education from childhood through the undergraduate university level. This principle is established in Article 103 of the nation’s constitution.

The law says students will have the right to an equal vote in the election of university authorities, evaluate professors and participate in self-evaluation, freely express opinions, access university administrative records, and receive a range of services including housing, transportation, meals, health care, and monthly stipends, among other rights. The law also establishes a series of university councils that are to be elected on each campus through a one-person, one-vote democratic system that includes students, professors, administrators, wage workers, and other members of the university community.

This includes a University Public Defenders Council and an Ombudsman Council to audit and oversee university budgeting and administration. Likewise, each campus will elect a legislative body of representatives called the University Transformation Assembly that will work with the National Council for University Transformation to manage the changes to the public university system’s administrative structure and programs in line with the new law and the constitution.

Currently, universities are run by a smaller group of authorities called the University Council which is elected in a system that weighs higher authorities’ votes more heavily and gives virtually no power to students or workers.

The new law explicitly upholds the principle of autonomy of public university administration, which is mandated by Article 109 of the national constitution. This principle was inspired by Venezuela’s deep history of deadly political repression and resistance on university campuses, especially during the U.S.-backed, right wing dictatorship that ended in 1958 and the subsequent period of representative democracy. But the legal interpretation of autonomy has changed under the new law, according to legislator Alberto Castelar from the governing United Socialist Party of Venezuela (PSUV). He said public universities will now have “co-responsible autonomy, which means that university authorities cannot go and do as they please.”

MORE AT LINK

[alex cross]

2. Ha, "students". More likely trouble making, rabble rousing

rich offspring of wealthy elite parents who are chafing under the peoples governmental reforms instituted by President Hugo Chavez.

[LeftishBrit]

3. Do you feel the same way about British and Europaean student protesters?

[alex cross]

4. Are you comparing Britain and Europe to Venezuela?

n/t

[LeftishBrit]

5. I am comparing authoritarian treatment of students in one country with authoritarian treatment of

students in another country.

It's wrong wherever it happens.

[MrBig]

10. +1 n/t

[AlphaCentauri]

16. Apples and oranges

What the British students protest for?
Are they getting free college tuition?
Do british students get their foreign money to organize protest?

Education in Venezuela is free, universal and compulsory. Approximately 20% of the national budget is assigned to education, one of the highest percentages in the world. The literacy rate is 89.5%.
http://www.embavenez-us.org/?pagina=kids.venezuela/education.htm&titulo=Venezuela%20for%20Kids

Venezuelan Student Movement Leader Awarded
$500,000 Milton Friedman Liberty Prize
http://www.cato.org/special/friedman/goicoechea/index.html

[boppers]

21. "compulsory", education with government control of the curriculum?

You know what they call that in other countries, no?

It often ends with "washing", if that's any hint.

(First link is wonky, yay.)

[AlphaCentauri]

22. I don't see anything wrong with it

Education is compulsory for all children in the United States, but the age range for which school attendance is required varies from state to state. It begins between the ages of five and eight and ends between age sixteen and eighteen.<5> For example, in Illinois, attendance is required through age 17, while in Mississippi it is age 17, and in Oklahoma, age 18. Some states allow students to leave school between 14–17 with parental permission, before finishing high school; other states require students to stay in school until age 18.<5>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_education

[boppers]

24. Pierce v Society of Sisters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierce_v._Society_of_Sisters

You're required to get an education, but the state *cannot* force a specific curricula on to children.

[AlphaCentauri]

39. I guess the SAT and ACT exams set the curricula

in Venezuela every citizen has the right to attend Public Universities not based in their income but in their aptitudes.

http://education.stateuniversity.com/pages/1663/Venezuela-EDUCATIONAL-SYSTEM-OVERVIEW.html

[boppers]

66. Pretty much. Basic knowledge is tested, rather than political perspective.

Indoctrination (or a system that seems designed for it) is what I fear.

[AlphaCentauri]

92. For religious zealots teaching science is indoctrination

for others teaching history is

[boppers]

110. Teaching without dissent is a tough issue.

So, is dissent encouraged, or not?

[AlphaCentauri]

123. Dissent based in lies or based in real history?

we don't know if there is a college subject named dissent in the Venezuelan Universities but one thing is for sure dissent is not teach in the US, we don't have large socialist movements witch would be our dissent base.

[boppers]

127. Dissent is taught a great deal in the US.

It's part of *why* we don't have dictators, and do have a culture of debate, disagreement.

It's also why we don't have large socialist movements, because (historically) for pure socialism to be effective, dissent must be eliminated, or controlled.

[LeftishBrit]

130. I would disagree here about 'socialism'. There is a huge difference between 'socialism' and 'pure

socialism'.

To have *pure* anything-at-all generally does require the suppression of dissent; that's the nature of 'purity' in ideology.

But many Europaean countries, for example, have large, not-very-pure, mixed-economy socialist movements, and in some countries these have been in power over long periods without any suppression of dissent.

I am basically on your side with regard to views of Chavez; but as a Europaean-type socialist myself, I would never equate socialism with left-authoritarianism.

I would also add here: it's my impression that the *right* in America is 'purer' and more suspicious of dissent than conservative parties in much of Europe (or in Canada, New Zealand, etc.) Much as I dislike David Cameron for example, there's a clear difference between him and the likes of George W. Bush or Sarah Palin.

[boppers]

131. I will agree with you.

Not much to bump the thread, though.

[StarsInHerHair]

82. like in Texas? is that what you mean?

nt

[boppers]

113. Yeah, like in Texas.

Sure, it's run by idiots, and will make students stupid, but it won't make them totally mindless, just lacking in education. As soon as they hit another state, they can get other perspectives.

Chavez doesn't want that freedom.

[JVS]

116. Milton Friedman Liberty Prize?

Release the hounds!

[Posteritatis]

47. Remember, anyone who disagrees with Chavez is an American spy these days

If he started machine-gunning civilians in the streets there would be people here arguing that they deserved it.

[JackRiddler]

106. "If he started machine-gunning civilians in the street" is your fantasy.

It's also what other governments in VZ have done. It's also close to what Colombia does -- death squads. VZ does nothing like this, but you describe it as though they do. That's ideology at work, unrelated to reality.

[davidinalameda]

7. do you have any evidence to support that

or are you just defending the violence perpetrated by Chavez against his own citizens

[MrBig]

9. Does it Matter?

Whether they are rich offspring of the wealthy or just regular students, shouldn't they be allowed to protest? Or is protesting only reserved for those you deem okay? Plus, it seemed to be both students and professors...are the professors also part of the wealthy elite? Is anyone who protests Chavez the "wealthy elite?

I also haven't read anything that indicates they were doing anything other than protesting. From everything I've seen, it was peaceful. So how were they trouble making?

[ChangoLoa]

26. "Wealthy elite" with 300 $/ month

which are paid a month later than it should...

Chavistas define as "right wing elite" anybody who is not in their political line.

Universities are autonomous in Venezuela so the students, the teachers and the workers vote for the rectors, for the budget and for the administrators of the universities. The problem chavistas have is that they've lost every single election in every single important state university of the country. This law wants to end with that autonomy and give the power to the government.

The students went out to protest and they received rubber bullets.

[slackmaster]

12. Sounds just like a far right-wing talking point even though it's a far left-wing talking point

Authoritarians all sound the same.

[Psephos]

14. "Authoritarians all sound the same."

Best five word summary of the situation I've seen.

[ChangoLoa]

25. BS propaganda... public universities, all social classes. nt

[COLGATE4]

33. You forgot the 'sarcasm' thingy...

[sulphurdunn]

6. Can you say CIA?

Sure, Chavez is a dictator. The slow erosion of democratic principals began after the US State Department sponsored a 2002 coup attempt against his government. Continuing attempts to undermine the democratically elected government of Venezuela have been relentless ever since. Global oilgarchs and banksters will tolerate a major oil producer sponsoring global terrorism but never one practicing domestic socialism.

[iandhr]

8. And

Chavez was part of a coup attempt when he was in the army in 1992

[Judi Lynn]

11. One of two attempts against a monster who told his police to open fire on protesters,

cops walking off the job, he told his military to lay waste to them, slaughtering around 3,000 according to public estimates, although his own government's claim was that it was only several hundred. There were so many murdered during his "El Caracazo" massacre, he had them rolled into a mass grave with a bulldozer.

Sure, what kind of madman would act to overthrow a piece of human filth like that?

http://lahistoriadeldia.files.wordpress.com.nyud.net:8090/2009/02/caracazo1.jpg http://fidelernestovasquez.files.wordpress.com.nyud.net:8090/2009/02/caracazo-fidelvasquez.jpg

http://www.soberania.org.nyud.net:8090/Images/caracazo_4.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_ODJWpmvZiZI/SRrp1_mYPJI/AAAAAAAAA-E/wfBa1O-WoNM/s320/1204121177caracazo_6_motoriz.jpg http://img511.imageshack.us.nyud.net:8090/img511/6033/jessechacontg6.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_aFe8Wrg0yO0/SafAWllkw4I/AAAAAAAAARk/bypQheq8stQ/s400/t_abn_26_02_2009_2620910151913tanquetas_a_la_entrada_de_la_autopista_caracas_la_guaira_154.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_aFe8Wrg0yO0/Sae_OiCztCI/AAAAAAAAARM/sOnqkXGR2H4/s400/t_abn_26_02_2009_2620910134518regresaba_de_trabajar__23_de_enero_192.jpg

http://www.radiomundial.com.ve.nyud.net:8090/yvke/files/img_noticia/t_caracazo_2_107.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_0F6YqUcqueU/SaYeRJySrMI/AAAAAAAAAFs/qOvu6W6uo4w/s400/Caracazo-2.gif

~~~~~~~

http://oziel996.lautre.net.nyud.net:8090/fal/wp-content/uploads/carlosandresperez_georgehwbush1.jpg

Mr. Magic, "El Caracazo" meister, friend of George H. W. Bush, later impeached Carlos Andres Perez.

[naaman fletcher]

13. So,

Do you think that the students should be allowed to protest?

[ChangoLoa]

28. Only if they're pro-Chavez as we all should be. nt

[COLGATE4]

35. Spoken like a true Chavez acoylte.

[msanthrope]

51. I think your sarcasm-o-meter is broken. n/t

[Posteritatis]

61. To be fair, it gets annoyingly hard to tell in threads like these. (nt)

[ronnie624]

42. They did protest,

and according to the opening article, it ended peacefully. Judging by the photos that accompany the article, the students are behaving aggressively. They are clearly attacking the police line, yet only "two students were briefly detained, then released". There were no mass arrests and no serious injuries. All in all, the Venezuelan authorities appear to be far more tolerant than the police at a WTO protest in the U.S.

[bitchkitty]

29. I guess you think the French Resistance shouldn't have resisted? n/t

[COLGATE4]

37. Didn't we fight back when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

[ChangoLoa]

27. So, in order to fight against them, let's kick the universities in the teeth. Nice logic.

You never know, you might get one of the internal enemies.

[sulphurdunn]

40. My comments were not posited

as a logical argument in defense of a position. They are a statement of fact.

[COLGATE4]

34. Are you (seriously) suggesting that student protests in Venezuela

are caused by the CIA? Any proof???

[sulphurdunn]

38. Proof? There are libraries of proof.

Anyone who has ever lived in Latin America or knows anything about the relationship of our government to Latin America, knows damn good and well that regime change is SOP for Latin governments that cross American business interests and has been for more than a century. Chavez has committed that sin.

[COLGATE4]

86. In other words, you don't have any proof. Thanks for not adding

anything to the discussion.

[AlphaCentauri]

93. 500 000 dollars is a good incentive to make a student movement in Ve.

google Yon Goicochea and CATO institute

[boppers]

15. Lets see: State control of TV, the Internet, the schools...

Sounds like a paradise!

[AlphaCentauri]

17. Has any politician in the US accepted 1/2 million dollars from Cuba or Iran to protest the US

government?

Venezuelan Student Movement Leader Awarded
$500,000 Milton Friedman Liberty Prize
http://www.cato.org/special/friedman/goicoechea/index.h...

[boppers]

18. 404 on your link....

http://www.cato.org/special/friedman/goicoechea/index.html
....Works (I guessed at it)....

Oh, and he won the award for protesting for democracy, and freedom of speech, something I doubt Cuba and Iran are big on.

[AlphaCentauri]

19. post #16

[boppers]

20. Copy/paste picked up the ellipsis, then.

:)

[AlphaCentauri]

23. sorry about that n/t

[ronnie624]

68. Milton Friedman was snuggling up to the Military Junta in Santiago,

even as Pinochet was hunting down and murdering thousands of leftists all over Chile. He was not about freedom. Neither is the Cato Institute or that student to whom they awarded their prize.

[boppers]

81. Alfred Nobel was responsible for the deaths of millions.

...and yet now, his legacy is to award advancements for humanity in peace, medicine, etc.

It's a complex world.

[AlphaCentauri]

94. problem is, Nobel is not selecting the winners of the Peace award anymore

somebody else is doing it

[boppers]

109. Friedman died in 2006.

He also won a Nobel.

[JackRiddler]

76. How many times will you use the lie about "state control of TV," etc.?

[boppers]

80. Until "Alo presidente" is not required programming.

FWIW, I consider the FCC (in the US) to be fairly reprehensible, as well.

[Judi Lynn]

83. Alo Presidente is NOT required programming on private channels.

You desperately need to humble yourself and spend some time learning about the subjects you try to discuss.

Nationally focused Presidential speeches are expected to be carried on private channels, just as they usually are here.

[social_critic]

85. The use of the takeover of all national TV channels for Presidential acts

Is excessive.

[JackRiddler]

100. (social_critic) You're probably trying to say something. Try syntax.

[Judi Lynn]

102. As I said, it has ALWAYS been the pattern here in the U.S. for standard broadcast channels

to carry all Presidential speeches. Period. End of story.

Doesn't matter if you imagine it's not acceptable.

[boppers]

115. Not required on WB. UPN.

You confuse "pattern" with "requirement".

[boppers]

111. "Nationally focused Presidential speeches are expected to be carried"

Hell no. That's morally wrong. That only serves the aims of privileged oligarchs like Chavez.

[Judi Lynn]

117. Carrying Presidential speeches on national tv stations, on STANDARD stations,

and I don't mean WB and whatever other you mentioned, STANDARD meaning STANDARD as in ABC, CBS, NBC has been expected and traditional for US tv stations probably since the first tv channels started broadcasting. Before that, they were carried on radio.

FDR's "Fireside chats" were HUGE with US American audiences during his terms of office. You need to snap out of it, sonny. It's not all about right-wingers vs. those evil leftists.

http://www.history2u.com.nyud.net:8090/FDR_fireside_chat.jpg http://www.dps109.org.nyud.net:8090/shepard/websites/dkomie/history8/PublishingImages/Great%20Depression/FDR.gif

http://4.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_O5R3TJcpZao/TBk8olUi5FI/AAAAAAAACFc/dk-HiQQxKrs/s1600/Fireside%2Bchat.Jpeg

http://stationstart.com.nyud.net:8090/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/s_fdr_007-a.jpg

"Fireside Chat" by George Segal at the F.D.R. Memorial
One of the GREATEST U.S. Presidents. The "lost my moral compass" right-wing despised him, labeled him a "commie," a "dictator," tried to organize to overthrow him by force, and, after he died during his 3rd term, moved to put term limits on the Presidency to ensure that ANOTHER beloved, useful, industrious, productive Democrat could never run for multiple terms again.

[boppers]

126. Did FDR revoke licenses of stations that didn't carry his chats?

Simple question.

I think we both know the answer.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[boppers]

112. Such as the lie that state run media is a solution to dissent?

The solution to a problem of free speech is not restricted speech, but more speech.

[bitchkitty]

30. Interesting article on the history of Venezuela's student movement,

and what has happened to change it:

Ruiz describes the average Venezuelan university student of the late 1990s as being “strongly influenced by the dominant culture” and as possessing “serious intentions of appearing like a student in any cheap US sit-com.”

According to Ruiz, the student organizations in this period and the few years subsequent to the election of Chavez in 1998 were dominated by a pseudo-left and generally characterized by inefficient and bureaucratic management, which he argues, alienated students and paved the way for the rightwing to regain control of these spaces.

And

The other key factor, which explains why the traditional universities have become a bastion of the ultra-right wing in Venezuela, is the rise of the Bolivarian forces within the institutions of government and state, closing off many of these spaces which were previously occupied by the right, forcing them to retreat into the universities. As a consequence, there has been a general shift in the ideological and political debate within the universities to the right.

http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/2581">Source

[ChangoLoa]

31. What an utter nonsense from venezuelanalysis

The universities have always been left-wing and very active in all social conflicts since the 1920's. And all of a sudden, because they don't support this pseudo-revolutionary government*, they've become "ultra-right wing". A "flash metamorphosis".

Any intelligent person understands that a wide movement in the sector of State universities can't be "ultra right". The affirmation that the right-wing "retreats" into the universities is obvious propaganda. Generations of students fought the executive to obtain the autonomy status and this government wants to dissolve it in order to gain control over universities. The real issue is there.


* The same way they didn't support the socialist democrats before.

[COLGATE4]

36. Absolutely right.

[bitchkitty]

67. Wait a minute.

You're the one always yammering on about how people who support Chavez have no idea what it's like because they don't live and work in Venezuela. The author lives and works in Venezuela.

So let me get this straight - a person has to live and work there to have a opinion about Venezuela, but that opinion is only valid if it is your opinion as well? Gotcha.

[COLGATE4]

87. No - what I have repeatedly said is that these boards are filled

with the 'opinions' of people who would have difficulty finding Venezuela on a map, let alone having any understanding of how certain things in Latin America work. The fact that I disagree with the writer who is Venezuelan (and publishes on an unabashedly pro-Chavez site) is nothing more than that - a disagreement, which is what the whole point of my posts has been. Hardly a "gotcha". But thanks for playing.

[bitchkitty]

91. I didn't mean it that way.

By gotcha I meant "I see" or "I get it."

I have no interest in playing games with you, especially since your posts never compel me to explore your point of view.

[COLGATE4]

98. I seriously doubt you have any interest in exploring any point

of view that doesn't correspond to your own.

[bitchkitty]

133. Not if it comes from you and yours.

[AlphaCentauri]

41. More than 70% of university students come from the wealthiest quintile of the population

Venezuela has more than 90 institutions of higher education, with 860,000 students in 2002. Higher education remains free under the 1999 constitution and was receiving 35% of the education budget, even though it accounted for only 11% of the student population. More than 70% of university students come from the wealthiest quintile of the population. To address this problem, instead of improving primary and secondary education, the government established the Bolivarian University system in 2003, which designed to democratize access to "higher education" by offering heavily politicised study programmes to the public with only minimal entrance requirements. Autonomous public universities have had their operational budgets frozen by the state since 2004, and staff salaries frozen since 2008 despite inflation of 20-30% annually.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Venezuela

[ChangoLoa]

44. Says who?

[AlphaCentauri]

45. the 1999 constitution

[ChangoLoa]

121. You're diffusing misinformation on purpose.

Everyone can see the lack of coherence though.

[AlphaCentauri]

124. Make it easy for others, show the facts and your sources n/t

[social_critic]

32. Ultra right wing seems excessive

I think using the term ultra right wing is quite inaccurate. Remember that, in the last Congressional elections, a slight majority of the popular vote went to opposition candidates on a nation wide basis. It would be difficult to describe such a majority as ultra right wing, and a student population is usually more liberal than the population at large.

The student population characteristics also change from university to university, as they do everywhere else. I'd say the students in an expensive high class university will have a tendency to be more right wing, while those who enter a prestigious public university - where admission is more restricted - tend to be middle class, usually bright, and cover the whole spectrum of political beliefs.

The issue in Venezuela is quite complex, but it's evident the government has made a move to implement a more hard-core brand of socialism, call it communism if you will, although there is still a significant amount of private property in Venezuela, and the majority of the population rejects the Cuban model (where there is hardly any private property at all).

On the other hand, it's interesting to see Raul Castro move the Cuban system away from the brand of "communism" they have been practicing, at the same time that Venezuela moves towards it. Is it possible they are trying to reach a midpoint?

From a practical standpoint, the set of laws passed by the Venezuelan assembly are going to have a fairly straightforward effect - brain drain will accelerate until they put in place measures to "lock down" emigration, and private businesses will slow down investing in the country - and this will include the oil industry and agriculture, where nationalizations are so widespread.

A currency devaluation is likely to follow as pressure increases on the rich and upper middle class to flee with capital (also because inflation is so high), and I suspect the economy will continue to suffer. Meanwhile, if they continue practices such as subsidizing the price of gasoline at a very low price, the government will bleed itself to a much weaker condition. This tells me they will have to raise gasoline prices, and the population will not like it, which will reduce the government's popularity and fuel more demonstrations. But somebody has to make a rational decision sometime, and the price of gasoline just doesn't make sense to anybody who understands basic economic principles.

Which tells me next year Venezuela is going to be in the news quite a bit, you guys will debate endlessly over the quality of your sources, and you will probably radicalize and polarize even more, because that's the way it usually works. So i ask again, why can't we all learn to get along?

[Judi Lynn]

101. Going to reread your article. Great to see it. It's hard to impugn articles which contain THE FACTS.

The right wing has a compulsion to claim anything which doesn't come from a right-wing source is a lie. That can easily be penetrated by testing the truthfulness of the information by RESEARCH. You've never seen them disproving anything from a non-right-wing site, I know I haven't.

Speaking of "students", you may recall hearing of Yon Goicoechea, the spoiled brat piece of pudgy putrescence whom CATO Institute gave $500,000.00 as a prize for his anti-Chavez activites on campus. http://farm4.static.flickr.com.nyud.net:8090/3263/2828539845_826e779f33.jpg http://www.infosurhoy.com.nyud.net:8090/cocoon/saii/images/2010/04/07/photo1.jpg http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com.nyud.net:8090/j/msnbc/Components/Photo_StoryLevel/080511/080511-student-hmed-9a.grid-6x2.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com.nyud.net:8090/imageserve/0aMQau10MAdZ9/610x.jpg

[SpartanDem]

43. Anywhere else

there out would be outrage at this kind of treatment.



?

[Imajika]

46. This is because those whom claim outrage at such things...

...only do so when it affects students they ideologically agree with.

These kids in Venezuela are protesting actions taken by Chavez who is claiming the socialist mantle and bashing America at every opportunity, therefore the Chavez cheerleaders will not make common cause with these students.

For the most part, the DU Chavez fan club here are actually just revolutionaries who believe that the ends justify the means. These people only believe in "democracy" when the people are supporting ideological positions they agree with. Please remember, our Chavista's tend to be the very same people who claim Cuba is a democracy.

Any fair minded person following Chavez knows what he is - a left wing strongman who has used democracy to achieve near absolute power. The actions he and his supporters have taken legislatively to neuter opposition within the last couple weeks (before the next congress is seated) have been beyond outrageous and are entirely undemocratic. No fair minded person who believes in freedom of thought, expression and democracy in general could support the actions Chavez has taken - particularly these last few weeks.

[AlphaCentauri]

48. students are also motivated by awards given in the US if they protest against Chavez

lack of credibility in their part, see post #16

[social_critic]

49. University Education isn't all free, and it's not compulsory

Imagine that, all free and everybody with a college degree :-)

[AlphaCentauri]

55. There are private schools of course

and there are exams similar to SAT and ACT exams to enter college level education.

[social_critic]

84. My analysis of what's happening in Venezuela's universities

My analysis shows the following:

The new University law is part of a package of laws being passed this December by a lame duck assembly. A new Assembly, in which the government opposition will have a much larger representation, is due to take over on January 5th.

The rush to pass these new laws therefore seems to be driven by the urgent need to have the current assembly pass laws which they feel may have a much harder time being approved in the new assembly - even if the government party has a majority, they seem to fear some of their own assemblypersons would shift sides. And this fear, that assembly persons belonging to the government party would shift sides is so real, they also passed a new law forbidding assembly members from voting against their party position. Which leaves assembly members answerable to their party leadership and not their constituents.

If we understand this context, then the new university law can be seen under a new light, it is merely part of a package intended to drive the Venezuelan system more towards a centralized power model, where the party (in this case the PSUV) and its leadership in particular, take control of government. The Universities in Latin America are usually a hotbed of political radicalism, and Venezuela isn't an exception. And if you read the new law, you will see one thing they have done is take the power to set admission terms or qualifications away from university authorities, and passed in to a government ministry. Which means they'll be able to force out any students who do protest, or refuse admission to students who lack the proper "socialist" credentials. And this will apply to both public and private universities.

Which means SATs and other testing will become less relevant, and political connections and a reddish pedigree become more important. This in turn will do two things: One, it will really lower the quality of education, and two, it will drive away from the country all the students who do have brains and have the means to leave. My diagnosis? They will have a massive case of brain drain, and the educational system will deteriorate.

This in turn will drive more of the middle class out of the country. Which means capital flight by any means possible. And because the Venezuelans are being advised closely by the Cubans, I expect that very soon they will impose restrictions on the ability of professionals to leave the country.

All of this, of course, drives Venezuela closer to the Cuban situation, at a time when Cuba is apparently trying to struggle away from communism and Raul Castro is (wisely) signaling the US to give Cuba a break, remove the embargo, and let the Cubans sort their own problems on their own. Raul seems to know what he is doing, and yet he doesn't get support from anybody, not from Cubans in the Communist party aparat, not from an Obama admininstration which behaves as if it were ruled by Bush's ghost, and not by Chavez' increasing radicalization and moves which hurt the Venezuelan economy.

US foreign policy, alas, is designed by morons, and the Obama administration is run by the usual mental midgets. Which means an outcome where everybody learns to get along, the Cubans and the US bury the hatchet, and Venezuela is shifted away from its radical course, is nearly impossible to visualize. Future historians will understand what is happening here will be similar to other instances, where a few individuals, either because they were arrogant, or stupid, or too venal to care, allowed a golden opportunity for peace and prosperity to pass them by.

[COLGATE4]

88. Brilliant analysis! Thanks for posting.

[AlphaCentauri]

95. I don't think thats the case

Latin American Universities administrations have a good chunk of corruption in witch some students bypass the admission exams, corruption in universities involve a lot wealthy students who won't pass those exams or who were sent to other countries when they were kids.
Those students are taking the place of smart kids but poor who make a good efford to get good grades in H.S. no wonder 70% of the students in Venezuela's Universities are wealthy.

[social_critic]

132. Your point fails to respond to my analysis

Indeed, University students tend to be more from the middle class (I would not classify them as "wealthy". Your position seems to be based on the idea that university students in Venezuela tend to come from families above the median. So what? This is the way it is everywhere.

What you fail to adress is the core of my analysis, that the student unrest is a response to a law which centralizes power and takes it away from the university body, which historically has been independent (and which is assured of such independence in the Bolivarian Constitution). In other words, you have failed to respond.

I don't think the student movement will have the ability to change things. But there will be brain drain the likes of which the world hasn't seen since Spain kicked out the jews in the 15th century.

[AlphaCentauri]

134. Your analysis fail to address the causes for the government to take control of the universities

hope this help

Ministro Ramírez consignó ante Fiscalía y Defensoría denuncias sobre corrupción en universidades
http://www.radiomundial.com.ve/yvke/noticia.php?462303

Universidades, corrupción por doquier
http://www.aporrea.org/educacion/a56666.html

PSICOLOGIA DE LA CORRUPCION EN UNIVERSIDADES
www.arcastilla.org/.../psicologia_de_la_corrupcion_alvaro_gonzales.doc

El Aprendizaje social de la corrupción administrativa en Venezuela: una explicación
desde el punto de vista de la psicología.
http://www.saber.ula.ve/bitstream/123456789/23081/1/articulo1-4.pdf





the university body fails to be independent when it depends on taxpayers money and spain not only kicked out the Jews but also the Muslims

[social_critic]

135. Sorry, but you are posting propaganda, and you miss the point

The Venezuelan Constitution specifically mentions that universities are to be independent of government control. This isn't something we see in the US, but they decided to put that clause in, and this is the Constitution advocated by the Chavez government. Also, the new law includes private universities, this means the state is taking control of organizations which it doesn't fund.

Corruption in Venezuela is widespread - it has already been discussed in the past in this blog, and the problem is a vexing one which impacts all government agencies and ministries. Therefore I would not be surprised to see some corruption in the university system. If they are worried about corruption, there are plenty of laws in the books to throw the guilty parties in jail.

The preparations being made by student bodies across the country for demonstrations starting as soon as the holidays are over are a concern - they are probably going to snarl traffic, which is already very congested. Chavez is smart, and he may realize the law may be an over reach at this time, therefore it's possible he may not sign it.

[FLPanhandle]

58. There is still outrage here, except from the hypocrites.

Those are readily apparent.

[MrBig]

50. I just don't understand this

We have a situation here where a government attacked and fired rubber bullets upon defenseless peaceful protesters consisting of university students and professors. Those facts haven't been disputed.

Why are people defending the actions of the police force here? Just because you do not agree with the politics of the students, does that mean they shouldn't have a right to protest? Who cares how wealthy they are or how "elite" they are. Shouldn't they still have a right to protest?

I mean, this is a democratic forum, right? One that promotes progressiveness? It's simply bonkers. The poster above said it best: "Authoritarians all sound the same"

[msanthrope]

52. Welcome to DU! Here, Chavez, Castro, and a few other dictators are held

in great esteem by a vocal few who cheerlead the use of fascist repression when it is for the 'right' cause....

Of course, there are more of us who simply point out the facts--that rubber-bulleting students is wrong, no matter WHO does it. We are quieter, but we are legion.

[Imajika]

53. The Chavez cheerleaders...

..are the worst impulses of the left. Just as the right has a reactionary element that favors virtually any method to include authoritarian means to achieve their ends, the left has a "revolutionary" wing of people who believe the righteousness of their cause justifies virtually any action so long as it advances the their vision of a socialist state. To the extent that either of these groups, far left or far right, support democracy, freedom expression, etc, is only so long as the people are making the choices they approve of. As I have pointed out previously, most of the Chavez cheerleader brigade here on DU are also the same people that laughably attempt to argue that Cuba is a real democracy.

There are no more excuses for the Chavista's. Chavez has made it crystal clear what he represents with the actions he and his socialist party have take these last few weeks before the opposition numbers grew in the next legislative session. Attempting to force lawmakers to vote only with their party, another enabling act for 18 months, internet restrictions to protect the people from "criticism of their leaders" and undo "anxiety", attempts by the government to impose curriculum on colleges and universities, etc. These are all plainly undemocratic and totalitarian in nature - everyone knows this.

"The law gives Chavez's higher education minister broad powers to decide on academic programs and university operations, and says universities should promote education that reinforces the government's aim of building a 'socialist homeland.'"

Why on earth should universities be encouraged, forced or otherwise required to "reinforce" the governments aim of building a "socialist homeland"? And how can any liberal person who believes in freedom of though and expression support this?

[Mudoria]

54. Well said and to the point

[COLGATE4]

89. +1

[Posteritatis]

60. The simple answer to your last two questions are that they should not, and they cannot

It depresses me that people think otherwise with either of those, especially in a place like this; when people do, I take it as a sign that there's little to no point whatsoever in continuing to discuss the issue with them.

It sometimes feels like both ends of the spectrum hate anything close to academic freedom, especially when it gets to the point where we've got threads like these in which people are cheering students getting stomped because, hey, any student in North America who isn't in an English-speaking country is just the enemy anyway.

Ugh.

[Imajika]

63. Yes, it is can be depressing...

..however, I think there are not too terribly many of them here.

The DU Chavez cheerleaders are really just revolutionary leftists, and they are no more democratic than reactionary right wingers.

"I take it as a sign that there's little to no point whatsoever in continuing to discuss the issue with them."

You can not reason with them, only call them out at every opportunity and force them to make fools of themselves as they turn logic on its head trying to make excuses for their hero. You give them enough rope to allow them to show their own incredible hypocrisy, to embarrass themselves trying to deflect and change the subject, etc, etc.

Our Chavista's are mostly just a loud, shrill minority that tend to post cut and paste jobs over and over again. The actions Chavez and his party have taken the last few weeks have been so undemocratic and appalling that all but the absolute fanatics now know what he really is. Actually, the fanatics have always known - they just don't care because for them the ends simply justify the means.

[Prometheus Bound]

105. The cheerleaders of the visionless Venezuelan opoosition parties...

..exhibit the worst impulses of the right. Just as the left has a reactionary element, blah blah...

[social_critic]

120. Visionless Venezuelan opposition parties?

I'm not sure Venezuelan parties are visionless. Each party has its own vision. Remember those opposed to the government now range from far left (Patria Para Todos and Podemos) to the traditional parties such as COPEI and AD. I read a report that in recent Assembly discussions the Communist Party leader had declared he could not support some of what was being proposed in the Assembly - but the Communist party hasn't bolted to the opposition yet.

Patria para Todos did bolt to the opposition, and the interesting thing is, this party is the one with the most support by the native americans living in the south, in the Amazonas region. So right now a significant block of native tribes are organized around a party which has lined up in opposition. As you can see, the opposition is quite a rainbow. I think many of them are shifting sides because they see too much corruption and crime, inflation is so high, and they see the emergence of a single party state which happens to be full of fairly incompetent people. Chavez could probably get them back if he focused on crime, reduced inflation, and stopped corruption.

And I keep scratching my head and wonder, is it possible that right now he's powerless to do anything? Has he surrounded himself with people who are so powerful and entrenched, he is unable to act because they won't let him? This is getting really interesting. This could be like Obama surrounded by war mongers and neocons, by the rabid right wing media, which ties him down and makes it impossible to do what he knows is right. Maybe presidents, after all, are captured by those around him and elites which are focused on their own well being, and this happens in government no matter who is in charge.

[AlphaCentauri]

56. funny how these incidents are portrayed

"progressives" in this forum never blamed Bush for this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eeus9IO1C-w

....wait he wasn't a dictator so he was allowed to do it

[MrBig]

57. What does that have to do with anything?

We aren't talking about the US and we aren't talking about Bush. We are talking about silencing student protesters in Venezuela.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AlphaCentauri]

96. Have you red those comments like Dictator Chavez is trying to repress students?

I mean whats the difference of Chavez doing it or Bush doing it, why wasn't Bush accused of repressing people in MacArthur park?

Do "PROGRESSIVES" have a double moral standard?

[Judi Lynn]

62. Our own protesters would be able to put up a better fight if the US didn't go ballistic against them

Who hasn't seen the beaten, bashed, badly damaged protesters of _Bush policy the few times pictures actually got out and got published in our own corporate media from one coast to the other?

Our own tax dollars, however, go to support anti-leftist government "movements" in Venezuela, as we have known for years:

~snip~
"Foreign intervention is not only executed through military force. The funding of “civil society” groups and media outlets to promote political agendas and influence the “hearts and minds” of the people is one of the more widely used mechanisms by the US government to achieve its strategic objectives. In Venezuela, the US has been supporting anti-Chavez groups for over 8 years, including those that executed the coup d’etat against President Chavez in April 2002. Since then, the funding has increased substantially. A May 2010 report evaluating foreign assistance to political groups in Venezuela, commissioned by the National Endowment for Democracy, revealed that more than $40 million USD annually is channeled to anti-Chavez groups, the majority from US agencies....

A large part of NED funds in Venezuela have been invested in “forming student movements” and “building democratic leadership amongst youth”, from a US perspective and with US values....In the last three years, an opposition student/youth movement has been created with funding from various US and European agencies. More than 32% of USAID funding, for example, has gone to “training youth and students in the use of innovative media technologies to spread political messages and campaigns”, such as on Twitter and Facebook.

NED has also funded several media organizations in Venezuela, to aid in training journalists and designing political messages against the Venezuelan government. ..What these organizations really do is promote anti-Chavez messages on television and in international press, as well as distort and manipulate facts and events in the country in order to negatively portray the Chavez administration... Yet such funding is clearly illegal and a violation of journalist ethics. Foreign government funding of “independent” journalists or media outlets is an act of mass deception, propaganda and a violation of sovereignty. ("America's Covert 'Civil Society Operations: US interference in Venezuela keeps growing", Eva Golinger, Global Research)

It's hard to believe that a two-year senator from Chicago with a background in "community organizing" presides over this elaborate and opaque system of imperial rule. He doesn't, of course. The real leaders remain hidden behind the cloak of democratic government and all of Washington's phony institutions. Obama is merely a public relations hologram, a friendly face that conceals the machinations of a global Mafia. Other people--whoever they may be--control the levers of power moving the pieces as needed to assure the best outcome for themselves and their constituents. Now, it appears this shadow government has its eyes on Latin America once again. That's bad news for Chavez and anyone else who hoped that political instability and US black ops were a thing of the past.

More:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article26107.htm

~~~~~
Venezuelan anti-Chavez actions hit a brick wall when the Venezuelan people, despite the total media news blackout, remember the Caracas mayor, Alfredo Pena had his police dismantle the independent TV station, Catia TV so it couldn't broadcast any information, despite the anti-Chavez 24/7 media message in newspapers, radio, tv stations STILL found out that Hugo Chavez had been kidnapped at gunpoint, and had NOT walked away from his job like Sarah Palin, after all, and forced the coup government to return their elected President immediately as they stormed Miraflores.

THAT was when the switch to hiding behind the students started. Most of us have known about this for years, and I know you know, of course, AlphaCentauri, as one who does his research so he knows something about the subject for himself, instead of picking it up from Fox, or corporate media, or even worse.

As a reminder, here are two photos of U.S. American anti-Bush murder machine demonstrators:

http://www.commondreams.org.nyud.net:8090/headlines03/images/0407-05.jpg http://www.commondreams.org.nyud.net:8090/headlines03/images/0407-08.jpg

[Imajika]

64. I see your trying to change the subject again...

Right on time and very predictable - complete with irrelevant cut and paste job meant to distract, divert and otherwise avoid addressing the actual story.

This isn't about Bush, Columbia or a coup attempt nearly 9 years ago.

This thread is about Chavez and his government voting themselves control of university programs and operations and imposing orders that universities should promote the governments attempt to create a "socialist homeland".

[Bacchus39]

65. second that and on edit I'll add to that

from the protest

.940.600.thumb

[joshcryer]

72. If this was a protest in DC that image would be in 20 different DU threads, some started with it.

[AlphaCentauri]

97. In what progressive moral grounds Bush was allowed to do it and Chavez don't? n/t

[ronnie624]

69. Venezuela’s Resurgent Revolutionary Student Movement

A brief look at the history of the student movement in Venezuela reveals one of the largest and most militant student movements in Latin America throughout the 1960s and 1970s. During this period, inspired by the Cuban Revolution, many leftwing groups went underground to carry out guerilla struggle against the Punto Fijo regime. Many of these same groups established their aboveground organizations or “political wing” on university campuses across Venezuela. As a result, many activists moved into academia and a current of left-wing thought began to permeate throughout the universities, generating a powerful student movement for a period of almost twenty years.

*****
Militant student mobilizations continued throughout the 1980s, with students playing an important role in the anti-neoliberal rebellion known as the Caracazo in February 1989. However, as Professor Miguel Angel Hernandez, a sociologist at the UCV explains, the student movement suffered a number of severe defeats during this period, such as the introduction of university fees and more stringent entrance requirements. The impact of the economic crisis in the late 1980s and the implementation of neoliberal reforms produced changes in the social composition of the student population. Universities, which had previously allowed more or less unrestricted access to the children of the working class, became more elite and less democratic institutions and by the mid-1990s participation rates of the poor dropped to below 7%.

*****
Just as the rightwing mobilizations in defense of RCTV under the supposed banner of “freedom of expression” (but in reality in defense of the rights of capital) led many Venezuelans to question the validity of these students’ claims and motivations, the protests calling for “university autonomy” led many to question the nature of the traditional university model in Venezuela. Contrary to the often brutal and repressive violations of university autonomy carried out by the Punto Fijo regime in the past, (outlined above), the so-called “violations” of university autonomy by the Chavez government today (vehemently opposed by the notoriously corrupt university bureaucracies), consist of measures to increase university access for the poor through regulation of entrance procedures, the application of quotas to ensure adequate national development in areas such as health and education, and measures to open the books and make universities account for the spending of government funds. As Guzman pointed out, “The right wing uses the banner of ‘autonomy’ to implement the capitalist model in the education system. Their autonomy is not in defense of freedom of thought.”

The autonomy that the rightwing speaks of today, added Trompiz, “is the child of tanks of war , the child of transnational capital, the child of neoliberalism, the child of the sequestering of knowledge . What exists in the autonomous universities today in Venezuela is not ‘autonomy’ but the dictatorship of small fiefdoms.”

<http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/2581>

[naaman fletcher]

70. yeah

cuz it's not like government funded news is ever unreliable or anything

[ronnie624]

71. It is a source of information, as is the AP.

The key to determining its validity, is in the analysis of its content, which you did not address.

[Mudoria]

73. Venezuela Analysis is a well known source of Chavez support..

The Fox news of Venezuela

[ronnie624]

74. Pointless. n/t

[paulk]

78. it's hardly "pointless"

unless you are referring to your own posts...

Venezuela Analysis is not a credible source of information as anyone who pays the slightest attention to these sort of things understands.

[COLGATE4]

90. You got it.

[naaman fletcher]

79. Well sure

But it's like asking Karl Rove if W was a good president. He's a source of information, but not one i would give much weight to.

[Cutatious]

77. Another copy/paste from Huge Ego's own Fox News

Here is the subject matter concerning the abuse of students...

<img> src=".940.600.thumb"> </img>

[Judi Lynn]

103. Do you have the story which explains that photo? Would you do the honor of POSTING THE INFO?

That looks very much like a picture of someone who was shot by the industrial size marbles the filthy pieces of #### from the opposition have used in "guarimbas", the "violent protests" they've been implementing after Hugo Chavez was inaugurated, spearheaded by reeking filth Cuban-Venezuelan with Miami contacts, Roberto Alonso. They murdered a man, by the way, a Chavez supporter, by shooting a marble right into his skull around 2002. An X-ray of his fatal injury was published at the time.

http://www.commondreams.org.nyud.net:8090/headlines04/images/0302-02.jpg http://4.bp.blogspot.com.nyud.net:8090/_eONrNBCQVPw/RzJpaV-CNrI/AAAAAAAAAZA/TqaPyvzLl7w/s320/afp-sling-shot-071107.jpg

[Cutatious]

104. No se encontró ninguna página Web estándar con todos los términos de su búsqueda.

IOW, having technical difficulties right now.

[Bacchus39]

107. here you go. and more pics showing the Ven government repression

yeah, that guy got hit by 20 sling shots at the same time in the same place. I think even you can do better than that.

http://eluniversal.com/2010/12/23/pol_fot_reprimen-manifestaci_23A4892133.shtml

[Mudoria]

108. Looks like the Gestapo beating a protestor

[AlphaCentauri]

125. It looks more like Abu Ghraib or MacArthur Park may day 2007 n/t

[boppers]

114. oooh! Slingshots!

Chavez is buying fighter planes, but fears....

...slingshots....

What's the Spanish word for "coward"?

edit: typo

[Bacchus39]

122. cobarde n/t

s

[Prometheus Bound]

118. This AP report says thousands of protesters, while the BBC and Reuters say hundreds.

Since all three say there were only dozens of police and guardsmen, I tend to believe AP is exaggerating as usual.

The BBC video shows a small crowd and only a few police. All but one of the Reuters photos show close-ups of the small group of aggressive demonstrators, trying to make it look like a crowd, but in the single view of the larger crowd it looks like almost all were peaceful demonstrators or observers.

I also notice the AP report does not say why the demonstrators were blocked.

[social_critic]

119. Prometheus: An insider's view

I talked to friends who observed what was going on. Here's what I make out of it.

The crowd trying to leave the University grounds was in the hundreds. There's an exit which goes out of the university and leads to an overpass over a wide expressway. On the other side of the overpass is Plaza de Venezuela. Use Googleearth to take a look at the setting (I did).

There was a larger crowd inside the university, made up of students, as well as professors, retired professors, and some university workers (all of these are impacted by the new law). I don't know how much larger it was. I do know the National Guard blocked access by car to the University, which means anybody driving to park inside and then join the protest was having to get dropped off - individuals driving their own vehicles can't just leave it outside the gates because there's no place to park (again look at the Googleearth view).

The National Guard didn't need a lot of guards because tactically it's very easy for them to hold the choke point with about 50 guards with shields backed by water cannon - which is what they mobilized. My observation is that, in general, the National Guard in Venezuela is pretty professional and they know how to handle crowds, Venezuela is a place where protests are very common, and they have a fairly good culture regarding how to behave on both sides (for example, you won't see protesters throwing molotov cocktails like they do in South Korea or in those European "progressive" protests against the WTO).

I think both the figure hundreds (for the ones actively shouting at the NG and trying to force their way out),, and thousands (for the ones milling just a few hundred meters away waiting to see if the NG would let them march or not) are right. I also saw in the media they are organizing much larger protests. Right now the movement is fairly disorganized because so many people are out for Xmas vacation, but as they return to class (if indeed there are classes), it is reasonable to expect they will organize larger marches. And I believe the Venezuelan National Guard will behave with restraint, because they always do. This will give everybody material to sling both ways.

What I can't guess is what will happen as larger protests are organized over time. We have to remember there are other laws already passed, or being passed, which impact a lot of people, and each group has their own grievances and complaints. Yesterday I was talking to a Venezuelan who backs Chavez, and she told me, "he's got his 18 months to get things right, or even we who back him now will not vote for him" - I'm translating freely. I guess a lot will depend on oil prices, if they go up, then the government will have cash to plug the holes, if they stay as they are, then it may not work out for them, because people do tend to vote with their wallets.

[boppers]

129. Hey, thanks for the perspective.

You reconciled things quite nicely, and added some flavor and commentary. Well done.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.