Snow fear cancels 300 Atlanta flights

[titaniumsalute]

Source: MSNBC

While many Southerners welcomed the prospect of a white Christmas by Saturday afternoon, the forecast forced Delta Airlines to scrub 300 of its 800 flights at its home airport of Atlanta, where up to two inches of snow were possible.

The snowfront was moving from the South up to the mid-Atlantic, where West Virginia and western Pennsylvania were expecting snow by late morning. Winter weather advisories were in effect Saturday morning from Arkansas to the Carolinas and from West Virginia to central Alabama. Much of North Carolina was under a winter storm warning.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40802805/ns/weather/?GT1=43001

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Two whole inches of snow?? Now I know that Atlanta doesn't get very much snow. But you would figure the biggest, busiest airport in the world would invenst in some solid snow removal equipment. I've flown to Denver after a foot and a half of snowfall and they don't miss a beat.

[BrklynLiberal]

1. I was in NewOrleans once, when it snowed....not even enough to have been mentioned on NYC

weather forecasts...but it shut the city down.
People were running into their attics looking for hats and gloves. Schools were closed. Roads were closed.
Guess everything depends on what you are accustomed to. That being said, an airport of the size and importance of Atlanta should
be prepared for ANYTHING. Not that they should function in the midst of a blizzard, but 2 inches of snow seems
like something they should be able to deal with.

[pitohui]

31. my friend BIG diff between MSY and ATL

MSY is a minor airport, ATL is the usa's largest hub

ATL is in the upper southeast, near the smokies and should be aware that it can snow, MSY is on the south shore of new orleans (kenner) -- in the last 20 yrs it has snowed once in 1989 and another time in i think 2009 (MAYBE 2008), in northern georgia it should snow every single year

finally even tho it's the south and thunderstorms should be a regular, expected DAILY event at some times of the year ATL can't handle a freaking thunderstorm either, and i'm not kidding, as i was in a flight that was diverted and NOT allowed to land at ATL during a major thunderstorm

ATL is just a shit hub on every level, whereas MSY is a small regional airport that actually usually manages to get us out on time

i tell people i much prefer to connect in DTW than in ATL (living in MSY) and they think it's my little joke.nope, it's just the cold fact, thunderstorm in DTW no problem, snowstorm no problem, but ATL acts like these are rare freakish events that should shut down the whole show

too bad NWA didn't pwn DL instead of the other way round...and i'm a southerner saying this but even employees have told me DL just doesn't have a "culture" of getting fights out on time (or even at all)

ATL sucks and don't listen to any excuses about how they never seen snow in georgia before because that's just crap

[HereSince1628]

Idle equipment = idle money

In the minds of the airport trustees and managers the cost of being ready for a rate snowstorm isn't worth the cost of cancelled flights which is mostly borne by airlines and air-travellers.

[titaniumsalute]

11. Maybe the airlines like Delta and Airtran should pitch in

If they deal with this a couple of times per year it can cost them millions.

[HereSince1628]

14. Yeah, I would think millions is not impossible.

[Hawkeye-X]

2. 2 inches of snow? Pfft. Denver International Airport laughs at Hartsfield Airport

Probably does not have enough deicing equipment handy to deal with the snow.

Denver has had only maybe two shutdowns during its over 16 years of existence due to snow. (not counting 9/11). And often enough it is a blizzard conditions that usually shuts down the airport.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. And MSP laughs at DEN.

It was down for a few hours two weeks ago in that blizzard than went through here - they couldn't plow the runways fast enough. But that's the only time I can remember MSP actually stopping operations altogether.

[Hawkeye-X]

7. DEN sympathizes with MSP

during that nasty snowstorm... What'd you get? 2 feet of snow?

Are you still digging it out or melting it?

No White Christmas in Denver this year - we keep missing the snow load, even though the high country has plenty of snow and powder for skiiers.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

12. We're kind of dug out now - though we got another 4" the other day.

The problem now is finding places to put the snow. It's in huge heaps all over the place.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. ATL, DFW, all those big southern airports come to a standstill in snow.

They don't invest in all that *extremely* expensive snow removal and deicing equipment because they don't need it often enough to justify the expenditure. Airport winter ops is a bigger deal than is ggenerally realized. Of course, if this global climate change thing keeps going, they just might have to ante up for a few more big snow plows.

[Hawkeye-X]

5. Usually you'd need 10 bulldozers at a minimum to deal with the snow..

but snowplows works as well.. Just find a couple of drunk rednecks and let them plow the taxiways/runways for free.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

10. The problem is that an airport's winter ops have to be FAA-approved,

and include specific plans and equipment for determining runway surface conditions (a vehicle with equipment that tells you how slippery a runway is), availability of emergency equipment, ways of getting ice off taxiways (you can't use regular salt because it corrodes aluminum). And as a general rule airplanes aren't allowed to take off or land if there's more than about 2" of dry snow or 1/2" inch of wet snow on a runway.

So it's expensive and complicated, and unless heavy snow is a common occurrence most airport operators won't spend the money.

[aquart]

17. That was then. This is now. They need to re-think.

Global warming means extremes.

[rsmith6621]

6. Most of The Reason for Cancels at Atlanta.....

....Atlanta Hatfield is not equipped to handle the aircraft DE-ICING that needs to be done in an efficient safe way....

[Hawkeye-X]

9. I got it right - figured that they didn't have the decicing equipment

ATL better start investing on a dozen or so...

(With that status in mind, ATL might lose its status as the US's busiest airport)

Hawkeye-X

[alex cross]

19. I talked to my 2 grandkids last night (I love Skype when it works)

they are both stationed at Ramstein AFB and most of the aircraft are sitting on the flightline do to a shortage of de-icing fluid in all of Europe.

[hedgehog]

41. Ahhhhhh...... that explains it! I've been wondering why Heathrow

and Charles De Gaulle didn't just hire 300 guys with snow shovels to clear the runways.

[SheilaT]

8. Were other cities on the Delta system

shut down because of weather? I'm asking because I'm not paying close attention to weather conditions anywhere else -- I'm in New Mexico and have no out of town visitors coming in, so weather elsewhere isn't important to me right now.

I asked the "elsewhere on the system" question because many years ago I worked for a small airline based out of Utica, NY. I was at National Airport, and over Christmas one year we were completely shut down for three days because of weather in New York State. One of our flights could have operated, because it was to and from a city not snowed in, but it made more sense for the company to shut down totally, rather than try to operate maybe ten percent of its flights.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

13. No, just ATL as far as I know.

And I think ATL is starting to open up for later flights.

[sgsmith]

15. Don't know about Delta, but Airtran shows impacted cities

Travel Period: 2 pm on Sat, Dec 25, through 12 noon on Sun, Dec 26

* Atlanta, GA

Travel Period: Sun, Dec 26 through Mon, Dec 27

* Allentown, PA
* Atlantic City, NJ
* Baltimore/Washington, MD
* Boston, MA
* Buffalo/Niagara, NY
* Harrisburg, PA
* New York, NY — LaGuardia
* Philadelphia, PA
* Pittsburgh, PA
* Portland, ME
* Richmond, VA
* Rochester, NY
* Washington, DC — Dulles
* Washington, DC — Reagan
* White Plains, NY

[Haole Girl]

16. Atlanta is not actually shut down, btw. But there are many cancellations.

Here is a list of affected cities:

http://www.delta.com/traveling_checkin/flight_status_updates/index.jsp

[titaniumsalute]

18. There will be more shut down or delayed

The weather system is goign to hit Charlotte (US Airways hub) and Raleigh, NC. pretty hard. It is probably also going to impact Washington DC (which also doesn't get much snow). Sunday NYC is supposed to get hit hard with snow and wind. JFK, Laguardia and Newark are sure to get delays.

Not a good weekend to be flying.

[Myrina]

20. Fear rules America. Yes indeed.

:eyes: Cripes, what a bunch of pussies we are.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

21. Fear? There's no fear involved - just inconvenience.

There would be very legitimate fear, however, if airplanes were taking off with ice on their wings or landing on slippery runways. There would be fear and also plane crashes. Sometimes fear can be rational.

[Myrina]

23. Fear of "Oh my God it MIGHT snow! People MIGHT complain"

:eyes:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

25. That's not the reason for the cancellations.

The reason is that it's a whole lot easier, cheaper and more convenient for everyone, including the passengers (not just the airlines) if a flight is canceled in advance, rather than having people sleeping in airports or worse, sitting in an airplane for hours waiting for deicing or plowing or something.

[dflprincess]

34. It costs the airlines a lot to cancel flights (not to mention all the headaches)

if they tell me the weather is making it unsafe to fly, I'll trust them on that and accept the incovenience.

[gristy]

22. Canceling planes on Christmas Day? I suspect empty planes they were going to lose money on.

The snow is just an excuse. It these planes were full they would have figured out a way to get them off the ground.

[titaniumsalute]

24. The last time I flew on Xmas day

it was packed. Many airlines reduce flights on Christmas day because of lesser demand.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

26. You're very wrong about that. The planes would have been full,

as they always are this time of year. But they would not, and legally can't, take off under certain weather and/or runway conditions. The weather can't be below certain takeoff and landing visibility minimums; they can't take off in freezing rain; the runways have to be plowed and the airplanes have to be deiced or they can't go.

[titaniumsalute]

29. I'm a pilot and I know about weather minimums

But some airlines absolutely reduce their fleet on Christmas day. There are far fewer fliers on Christmas day than other days of the year.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

35. Me, too.

And I work for an airline. The reduction in flying on a holiday is scheduled ahead of time based on known and anticipated travel and ticket sales. Operating a reduced schedule on a holiday based on known travel isn't the same as canceling flights at the last minute because they aren't full and falsely blaming the weather. That would be stupid -- they do NOT like to cancel flights if they can avoid it; it leaves crews and airlines out of position and generally messes up everything -- and ends up costing much more than flying some airplanes that aren't full.

[titaniumsalute]

38. Velveteen

I never implied they cancel flights to save money blaming weather. It is a trainwreck when they cancel flights and costs the airline money and headaches.

My original point was that 2 inches of snow shouldn't shut down a major hub like Atlanta regardless of what day of the year it is. Someone else made the point about empty flights on Christmas and I responded with the comment that many times airlines operate on a reduced fleet on Xmas day due to them knowing it will be a light travel day.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

39. Sorry about the confusion -- I was intending to respond to post #22

which said "The snow is just an excuse. If these planes were full they would have figured out a way to get them off the ground." Obviously that's nonsense -- but I wasn't intending to argue with you, of course you are right about the reduce schedule on Christmas.

[alp227]

27. I visited Orlando with family in Christmas 2005 and stopped at the Atlanta airport

both to and from Orlando. Winter weather down south doesn't have much snow; where I live (the SF Bay Area) it just rains all winter and dips to freezing without snowfall. Good thing I was in Atlanta when it was NOT snowing. (December 2005 weather in Atlanta)

[Tesha]

28. "What you folks call a blizzard, we call 'Tuesday'."

I've heard this attributed to Minnesotans, but it used to apply
in parts of New England as well, although it certainly doesn't
seem to be applying this year in *OUR* part of New England
(where we've probably received a total snowfall of under
one inch so far; if this keeps up, we're going to be hurting
for water come next summer).

Tesha

[boppers]

36. I'm in Portland, Oregon, we have the same attitude, only about rain.

6 inches of water coming down? We don't blink. Meanwhile, when California gets that much water, tragedy strikes as people are flooded out of their homes.

2 inches of snow, though, and Portland freaks out...

Coming from Tucson, Arizona, I laugh when people consider 90 degrees a "heat wave" (110 is hot, 90 is balmy for me), so, I've now tackled heat and wet, and I commute through mountain passes every week for my job, so I'm *learning* to manage snow... it's been an interesting challenge.

It's a regional thing, with many folks having never lived in multiple climates, and learned the appropriate lessons for that climate.


edit: missing letter

[tpsbmam]

30. Having moved to the mountains of NC from the North

it's astounding how much shuts down with a little snow around here. I'm amazed at how often schools are closed. Hell, I went to a doc's office the other day and THEY were closed. The only snow I hit the entire way was a tiny bit left on our private road...that was it. It was bitter cold but no snow on the ground. But their offices were closed due to the weather. Oy. I don't think I'll ever get used to this aspect of the South!

[underpants]

32. My brother -on-law found a flight on AirTran out of Richmond to Atlanta

he was cancelled yesterday morning while still on the plane (arriving) and they spent much of the day trying to find flights.

They did.

[Gin]

33. had a ticket for Amtrak on Monday to go from Newport News to DC...they just called to

alert me that the train is canceled...no other options available....guess the snow storm is going to be a big one here...2 inches shuts down the city....predicting 6-8.

Crap...I am not a fan of snow.

[Dover]

37. Anyone know what the conditions are expected to be tomorrow for flights from Atlanta?

I have a family member who is supposed to fly out of there tomorrow (traveling south, not north).
I've looked at the Atlanta weather report and it looks like it will be a bit wet but fairly mild.

[titaniumsalute]

40. The problem isn't alwasy the airport

If you take a look at Atlanta and the weather is beutiful but a huge storm is hitting say Chicago, Indianapolis, Detroit and Cleveland, it may be hard on Atlanta. Incoming flights come from somehwere.

In this case it is supposed to be Charlotte (US Air hub),Washington DC (home of Dulles, National and BWI in Baltimore), Philly and NYC with their 3 airports. That many airpots being disrupted the whole airline system will be a mess for a day.

[hedgehog]

42. Not to mention, sometimes the problem is just getting crews

and passengers to the airport. Even if the runways are clear, you still can't fly if the roads are closed.

[Dover]

43. Both good points, A complicated transportation web.

He is heading to Ecuador but I've forgotten which airline he's taking and don't have a clue where it originated. Still waiting for word...