(CNN breaking) Apache helicopter brought down

[shockingelk]

An Apache helicopter was brought down by ground fire west of Baghdad Sunday, a senior military source told CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/11/iraq.apache.down/index.html

[bluestateguy]

1. Depends

Sometimes the whole crew walks away, sometimes its massive casualties.

[aquart]

2. Praying now.

[shockingelk]

4. For a miricle I hope!

This kind of stuff is going to go on ... if the US leaves it will be less US deaths, but more other deaths ... I don't pray, but if it works within your theology, pray double for me!

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[skooooo]

13. Wow, praying for US soldiers to die?

That's pretty gross.

[Qanisqineq]

15. no, that's not just gross as skoo says

that's fucking sick and gives the Limbaughs and freepers reason to think liberals don't support the military.

[Voltaire99]

20. Many of us oppose the war because it's immoral and illegal.

Frankly, I know of no liberal or progressive who cares one whit what Limbaugh or Freepers think.

Perhaps you should stop worrying about them, too.

[Qanisqineq]

22. I oppose the war too

however, I would never wish for any service member to be killed either.

[skooooo]

33. probably a freeper poser

[chasqui]

61. I wouldn't doubt it.

This forum is massively infiltrated by provokers. You really need to watch what you respond to, and how you respond. Chew on this: Why would they be posting cattleprodding statements? What PURPOSE would there be to do so?

[Sterling]

44. Can we get over what the scum of the earth thinks already?

I really have no respect for those people and almost less respect for those who allow them to be a factor in their thought process.

[Qanisqineq]

48. I'm sorry you have so little respect for me

you are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine, and as he/she is to his/hers. I simply expressed my opinion, as did others. It's funny, I wrote a post several days ago that was poorly worded and therefore easily misinterpreted. I was accused of the same thing I simply stated above. Anyway, everyone's life experiences are different. As a spouse of a soldier that spent time in Iraq, I know military wives that listen to the Limbaughs of this world and believe his crap and I am a bit more sensitive than others about these types of sentiments. And they are sentiments I am hearing more and more of in recent days, not just on DU.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nonbelief]

28. These brave servicemen...

These men were flying an Apache helicopter--the same kind of machine that has been firing missiles into residential areas, and strafing Iraqis...

Who knows how many people these brave men and their machine would have killed if they hadn't been taken out?

Another small victory in the war on terror.

[mobuto]

29. And the men they were shooting at

are carrying rocket-propelled grenades and mortars and large caliber machine guns and are firing at and among civilians in the first place.

If you have problems with US policy in Iraq blame the leadership in Washington. But do not blame US soldiers on the ground, who are just trying to do the best they can.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[termo]

40. same logic in WWII for SS ?

the leaders are responsible of a illegal war, that doesn't make the troop not responsible of war crimes on civilians !

don't support the war and don't support the troop, else you will just support any war of the PNAC.

BTW, I don't understand why message 5 was deleted... patriot act maybe.

[mobuto]

43. Because the poster was praying for US soldiers to die

Which is not appropriate and expressly against DU rules.

Your comparison of US helicopter pilots to SS officers, aside from being profoundly offensive, just doesn't work. Where are the death camps?

[Sterling]

45. We all know unless their are "death camps" no NAZI comparisons apply

:eyes: Of course we do have concentration camps and have waged an illegal war of aggression but it’s really the death camps that matter. Next you will here unless the US uses Zyclon B in our concentration camps for our final solution that no Nazi comparisons have any merit.

I don’t pray for anyone’s death. If there is a God I would imagine that is a one way ticket to hell. I do however understand why many can’t “get on the team for the big win”. It is hard to be proud of what our tax dollars are buying in Iraq these days.

[mobuto]

52. It wasn't a Nazi comparison it was an SS comparison

And the SS ran the death camps. There is no analogue for either the SS or the death camps in any way, shape or form in Iraq or in the US Army. So no, the parallel is bunk.

[frankieT]

53. different SS ?

the waffen SS fought bravely on the eastern front. These waffen SS (including the famous totenkopf division) were elite soldiers and they all died in the largest battlefields of WW2: Stalingrad, Kursk, Kharkov. if you can excuse Americans soldiers doing their "job" in Iraq, then waffen SS deserve at least the same respect for fighting for their country.

[mobuto]

56. The Waffen SS

Was just one, late-coming component of the SS and was almost totally autonomous of the larger organization. The main branch, the Allgemeine-SS, ran the death camps. So when you refer to the "SS" alone, you're implicitly referring to the Allgemeine-SS, not the Waffen-SS which was an organization not significantly different from the Wermacht.

[frankieT]

62. i think

they were far more waffen SS than in death camps. In camps, a few dozens of SS-Totenkopfverbande were usually enough to guard hundreds and more. and btw, the waffen SS were formed in 1940 and counted as many as 600 000 members. They were the shock troops with incredible battle records, and the most "politically engaged" Europeans enlisted in SS to fight Soviets, not to pour Zyklon B.
if you are trying to explain that SS are bad guys and/or usually viewed as criminals, I agree with you but let US Army fight around in foreign countries against civilian rebellions and true patriots a few years, and your Marines will be remembered as SS.

[mobuto]

67. The Waffen SS weren't necessarily any worse

than the Wermacht as a whole. They were a somewhat elite military unit, composed of men chosen for their political loyalty. Despite official connections to the larger SS organization, there really weren't any.

You are correct that the Waffen SS at its peak was considerably larger than the rest of the SS (600,000 to only 250,000) but the two were really not connected in anything more than name and official allegiance.

[frankieT]

68. you're making my point

the first comparison between SS and US Marines is totally valid, we're comparing combat units in combat environments. you brought up the SS guarding death camps, but I can assure you that all across Europe and Russia, when we hear "SS" we think of "Waffen SS". Many non-German units fought under W-SS uniforms (Belgian Wallonien division, French Charlemagne division, Ukrainians, Cossacks, Polish, Croatians, Lithuanians, etc) they were dreaded on conventional battlefields and also in their counter-guerrilla interventions (reprisals) all across occupied Europa: make a search about Ouradour Sur Glane in France, and hundreds of similar cases in Belorussia, Ukraine, Russia, Yugoslavia and everywhere Germany faced staunch civil resistance.

[frankieT]

57. the US methods viewed by an English officer

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/11/wtact11.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/04/11

[termo]

59. good post !

[termo]

54. I tought he was ok to pray for war machine to be destroy

I do not remember he did specify the pilot.

I agree it is far to be the same scale as WWII, but the seeds* are there, the question is: you will support the troop up to ?

you should have the same standard for both side.

*: you can google "afghan massacre" or "guantanamo bay"

[mobuto]

58. He did specify the pilots deserved to be killed

Which is why his post was deleted.

you will support the troop up to ?

I will support the troops as long as they act according to the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which incorporates the international laws of war.

[termo]

60. Uniform code

I am not sure you will find some work like "pacify" or "level" a town.

[mobuto]

65. Have US soldiers leveled any towns in Iraq?

Which ones?

[saigon68]

66. He never said that

You like putting words in peoples mouths don't you. It is a lousy debate style and the hallmark of a trouble maker.

[RapidCreek]

69. It's a town called falluja.

No men of fighting age can leave....any attempt to do so and they will be shot. They have a soccer field in that town with 600 dead stacked up like cordwood... babies, women and the elderly included. Sounds like a death camp to me.

You know, I support our troops....I used to be one. Frankly, there comes a time when a man of morals has to say..."I'm not going to do this anymore, do what you will but I am done". I think that time has arrived.

RC

[AVID]

39. OK O'Lielly. no more lurking/freeper posts for fodder

n/t

[revcarol]

49. That is sick.

They are obeying orders of a vicious immoral leader who sent them into a vicious immoral war. Can you say caught between a rock and a hard place.

Go back to the other site.Pronto.

[0007]

23. That's over the top man,

[theHandpuppet]

6. Being a non-military person...

Could someone explain to me what the difference is in the various types of copters -- Apache, Chinook, gunship, etc.? i know there are some that carry small crews and others are used for transporting troops, but that's about it.

[AZCat]

7. For questions about military materiel, I go here...

www.fas.org

Here is the page for the Apache: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ah-64.htm

Here is the page for the Chinook: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/h-47.htm

Here is the page for the Blackhawk: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/uh-60.htm

I hope this helps

[theHandpuppet]

10. Thanks....

Off to read up now.

[AZCat]

12. No Problem

They haven't updated in a couple of years, but the info is good, and I trust FAS.

Another aircraft we're using over there is the AC-130U Spooky (formerly Spectre): http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ac-130.htm

This is the support aircraft that has been shelling in Falluja (lots of info on DU the last couple of days about this- just do a search).

[doni_georgia]

21. Apache

Apaches are sort of like flying tanks. They are attack helicopters

Chinooks ar used to transport troops and supplies

Blackhawks are primarily used for division-level transport

The three main categories of helicopters are attack, transport, and recconnaisance.

Sorry, once an army brat always an army brat . . .

[0007]

25. Flying tanks

[mobuto]

26. Except they're not flying tanks

because unlike tanks, even Apaches can be destroyed by small-arms fire. Now I wouldn't want to pick a fight with one, because they're armed to the teeth, but they're still extremely vulnerable.

[jmowreader]

64. The various Army helicopters, for your viewing pleasure...

The military uses four kinds of helicopters: utility helicopters, cargo helicopters, observation helicopters and attack helicopters. And almost all of them are named after Indian tribes.

In Iraq, the only utility helicopter in use is the H-60. The H-60 airframe is very versatile: among its variants are the UH-60 Black Hawk (the troop carrier, and the most common kind), the MH-60 Pave Hawk used by special operations forces, the HH-60 used by the Air Force, the Seahawk used by the Navy...you get the idea. There is also an EH-60 used by military intelligence troops; it's full of radios and is called a Quickfix. Once they figured out how to keep this thing in the air, it's been an exceptional aircraft. It is powered by two General Electric T-700 turboshaft engines. In UH-60 trim, it can carry 11 soldiers (21 with the seats removed) at about 200MPH.

You'll find two cargo helicopters in operation: the CH-47 Chinook and the CH-53E Super Stallion. The Chinook belongs to the Army, the -53E to the Marines. The Chinook can slingload an M-198 155mm howitzer and a lot of ammunition into battle. It's also used for "artillery raids," which are one of the craziest things you can ever do: you load a 105mm howitzer into the back of this thing, fly it behind enemy lines, land with the ramp facing the bad guys, shove the gun off, lay it, fire a mission, put the gun back in the aircraft and fly home. The Super Stallion can slingload another Super Stallion, which is by design: the Marines wanted some way to recover the aircraft if one goes down, and wouldn't accept the aircraft until it could lift another one just like it.

You've seen police helicopters and news helicopters flitting around, and most of them are Bell Jet Rangers. The OH-58 Kiowa utility helicopter is a Jet Ranger painted green.

The Attack Helicopter is a flying firing position. We're using the Apache this war. It carries a 25mm chain-driven cannon, four hardpoints for weapons, and two of the same engines as in the Blackhawk.

[mobuto]

18. Massive casualties?

Unless the Apache flies into a schoolbus on the ground, there's no way there are going to be massive casualties - they have a crew of two. Nevertheless, all the best for the crew.

[shockingelk]

3. AP report

"A 1st Cavalry A8-64 Apache helicopter was downed by unknown ground fire west of Baghdad at around 11:05 a.m. The condition of the crew is unknown," the spokesman said.

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ_KIDNAPPING?SITE=OHRAV&SECTION=HOME

[jmatthan]

8. Another case of Rumsfeld's

known unknown unknowns known...

eom

[Layman]

11. Guru Don

LOL Don't you think he's the insanest of them all?

[VolcanoJen]

9. For what it's worth, the Apache carries a two-person crew

So at the most, casualties would be two.

For what it's worth. :-(

[izzie]

14. Question? Does anyone think the Right wing Christians would....

do this? Say shoot down one in say Ga if it was from China and the Army of China was here bring us a new form of govt? We on this site would be fighting it but then we do not believe that we should just do as a leader said and think we should invade countries, and they do and think it is OK to invade a country. I guess I have had to many cups of coffee.

[Disturbed]

16. Right Wing Christians

Most of them believe that Muslims worship a false god and should convert to Christianity. It was the right thing to invade Iraq because Saddam was evil. The US must stay and force Irais to accept the US model of Govt. and convert the Iraqis to the right god & Jesus,no matter how many have to be killed &/or maimed. It is as simple as that.

[Flagg]

17. yes and the Repukes would be the first ones to collaborate

[izzie]

24. Right on. I have never got over that these people can not see .....

how odd it would be if we were in the place of Iraq.

[Hotdiggitydog]

27. Just heard at a CPA news conference...Pilots are dead

Very sad. Also, a question was asked about yet ANOTHER helicopter down. Haven't heard anything about it yet.

[JoFerret]

30. Two confirmed dead

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20040411/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

[skooooo]

34. damn....the family will get the message on Easter

:(

[lettucehavepeace]

37. tears for our men and women

I hate to read and see these things but I have to, it reminds of what Im fighting for, to bring our people home.

[leftchick]

32. good ol John McCain on MTP right now...

"we need more troops", "it will be a long hard process", "most Iraqis want us there"... Blah Blah Blah...I think John left all of his common sense back at the Hanoi Hilton...:(

[JohnyCanuck]

35. Longer and harder than McCain realizes I think.

I'm not so sure the Iraqis want the US to come in and establish a compliant puppet government that will ensure US interests are placed over local interests, sell off the country to US multinationals, ship the country's main resource to Israel (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,940250,00.html), and invite the US to build bases and station troops in-country - troops likely to be used against fellow Arabs in the not too distant future.

[jmcgowanjm]

36. Could someone source me Marine casualties from Ramadi

trying to confirm reports of B52's bombing.

And most important of all — something you will not hear
on American TV — is that the U.S. appears to be losing
control of Baghdad and all the other major Iraqi cities, and
the air campaign of killing innocent civilians is a
desperate attempt to reverse the trend.

Libertarian Socialist News

The only way we'll know the situation is when
WashDC says it's time for flyover country
to send up some more boys and girls.

I heard 10K Friday.

And no one's even talking about actual $ costs.

[mobuto]

38. Um, there are no press reports

on the wires to suggest the use of B-52s. Nor is that terribly surprising since B-52s would be an odd weapon to use.

Is there a reason you're posting to this to every forum on DU?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

41. Why do you say that?

Nor is that terribly surprising since B-52s would be an odd weapon to use.

That is an odd thing to say... The B-52 is the perfect weapon to use in situations such as this, based on their rather unique abilities.

The B-52 can now carry dozens of precision guided bombs, and can loiter above the battlefield for hours. Although it started out as a strategic bomber, it has become one of the best tactical air support weapons around.

For every B-52, you would need two or three squadrons of F-16 or F-15 fighter bombers, and they would have much less loitering time. The B-52's precision targetting avionics can operate from extreme alititude, so they are far less likely to get shot down.

Having said all that, the bombs they drop still miss on occasion, and even when they don't miss, they pack such a punch that anyone in the vicinity will be killed, civillian and soldier alike.

Still, from the US military's perspective they are perfect for the job.

[mobuto]

42. Because

The idea of using fixed wing aircraft at all, other than AC-130 gunships, seems somewhat inappropriate. There aren't fixed positions that can be bombed easily.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

46. You ever heard of a laser guided bomb?

Problem:

Marine platoon with a laser designator moving into Falluja. A group of Iraqi millitia suddenly begin firing from a heavy brick building.

Marines call for air support.

B-52 loitering overhead receives target coordinates and tells Marines to "paint" the target with the laser designator.

B-52 avionics picks up the reflected laser energy and drops one or two LGB's.

Iraqis, and the building they're in no longer exist.

Problem solved.

Inappropriate? Hell, that is the way the US military operates!

[FlemingsGhost]

50. Thanks.

Valuable insight...

[Sterling]

47. They are held up under siege in a city.

I think that qualifies as afixed position. Any building they are using for cover is a fixed position. While I am sure insurgents are using as many locations as possible for cover I am also sure they are all fixed positions. Urban warfare is does not lend itself to tactics of mobility.

From a strictly military point of view a strick form a high altitude bomber might be preferable at this point as we are lossing close air support like helis in the fighting currently.

[daleo]

63. There was a claim of B-52s on a blog I read

Supposedly, people trying to get out of Fallujah were bombed by a B-52. I know lots of people won't consider the source credible, but I have seen the claim made.

[jpgray]

51. According to CNN, a SAM took down the Apache

And the two pilots were killed. If they have good SAMs, I'd hate to be flying a helicopter around.

[agincourt]

55. For crying ass loud,

Qasem and Odai are dead, nearly everyone in the deck of cards including Saddam are captured or dead. Why the Hell are we still over there flying combat missions? Oh, I forgot some faux new pig or skank would say we have no backbone if we don't defend the Haliburton empire.