(Hugo) Chávez condemns Wall Street protest 'crackdown'

[alp227]

Source: Reuters

Hugo Chávez has condemned the "horrible repression" of anti-Wall Street protesters and described a US Republican presidential candidate as "crazy" for his criticism of Cuba and Venezuela.

Although still convalescing from cancer surgery in June followed by four rounds of chemotherapy, the 57-year-old Venezuelan president is quickly returning to his tough rhetoric and strong views.

Not surprisingly, Chávez expressed solidarity with American activists who have been staging rallies and marches against what they view as corporate greed on Wall Street.

The US protests, which began last month in New York City and have spread to Tampa, Seattle, Chicago and other cities, have mostly been peaceful but sometimes resulted in confrontations. Dozens were arrested and police used pepper spray in New York earlier this week.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/09/chavez-condemns-wall-street-protest-crackdown

[msongs]

1. chavez would do the same to protestors in venezuela nt

[EFerrari]

3. Nope. And he has not, ever, even when the opposiiton purposely

tried to bait the national police into violence by holding violent street protests.

[Bacchus39]

97. lol

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=13868406

[joshcryer]

8. I agree with the other poster, he would definitely not arrest people enmass, he'd tear gas them.

The prison riots and housing crisis only underscores that fact.

[Bacchus39]

57. yep, tear gassed the families of inmates just a couple of months ago

at the, not even most recent, prison riot. not to mention the prisoners killed.

[joshcryer]

62. See post #7, they were tear gassing peacefully protesting people who wanted housing...

...which Chavez promised years ago. You can only live in shitty conditions for so long, especially in a country that has oil wealth beyond dreams and can trivially make stuff happen.

[bitchkitty]

74. Chavez is so evil. The poor, poor

gangs in the prison! All they were doing was trying to make a living - selling drugs, weapons, and extorting "protection" money from other inmates. Free enterprise, you know.

Will you join me in a prayer vigil for all these criminal pieces of shit?

[Bacchus39]

76. 70% of prisoners still awaiting trial

Procedural delays and pre-trial incarceration contribute to overcrowding. In Venezuela, an estimated 14,144 of 20,947 of the 2008 population was still awaiting trial.

http://hrbrief.org/2011/06/escalating-prison-violence-in-the-americas-draws-multi-mechanism-focus/

[bitchkitty]

84. Ah, so you would prefer

that people who are awaiting trial should be under the control of the gangs who instigated the riot?

[Bacchus39]

86. 70% of the "prisoners" in the prisons are awaiting trial. comprendes??? n/t

n/t

[bitchkitty]

87. Answer the question.

You would prefer that these men be under the control of violent gangs, indefinitely, rather than use tear gas?

Please answer the question.

[ChangoLoa]

88. Tear gas... LOL. Led solid with full metal jacket in an AK assault rifle.

Go to 2:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0nZ7Vvw5OI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZPwymWZsS8&feature=related


Your milico buddies look quite happy to be spraying bullets on prisoners. Is that what you defend?

[Bacchus39]

89. I'll make it simple for you. 70% haven't been convicted of anything

yet they are in the same prisons as those that have. I imagine they are under control of the violent gangs already. tear gas doesn't make gangs go away. on the other hand, the families of the prisoners who were visiting were tear gassed which was the subject of my initial post.

[bitchkitty]

90. Still won't answer my question.

Your lack of an answer tells me what I already know about you.

[Bacchus39]

91. makes no sense and irrelevant to the tear gassing of the relatives of the prisoners

asking me whether I prefer that prisoners are tear gassed or under the control of gangs is non-sense. Prisoners being tear gassed does not preclude them from still being under control of violent gangs.

[bitchkitty]

93. Please provide a source to relatives being tear gassed.

Not that I think you're lying or anything. Right wing blogs don't count. I googled your assertion and I've found nothing about relatives of prisoners being tear-gassed.

[Bacchus39]

96. here you go. note post #3 that said this hasn't happened, ever lol

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=13868406

[bitchkitty]

99. Thank you - context is everything.

I have another question - would you prefer that the police allow the relatives to rush into the middle of a violent prison riot?

[ChangoLoa]

92. Your question is based on a fallacy. nt

[ChangoLoa]

94. The violent gangs are led and milked by the National Guard (military police). The military control

prisons from A to Z. Drug and weapon trafficking benefits the military first.

I'm sure judicial corruption and police abuse are quite common in US jails too.

Yet, some self-appointed "leftists" would defend an even worse situation because somehow they've found their symbolic critic-proof leader in Venezuela. In fact, for them, criticizing the prisons' situation in Venezuela equates to criticizing Chavez. That's why they're even ready to provide the most reactionary arguments that can be... i.e. "would you prefer those dangerous criminals to run the jail instead of having the army shooting at them with war weapons". I guess the same people would support the prison camp with the small tents in the Arizona desert.

As someone said, this threads bring the "fascistic" roots out of certain people.

[Lars77]

2. Chavez should shut his trap. This has nothing to do with him.

[EFerrari]

4. Hugo Chavez was protesting Wall Street's predations before

#OWS was a gleam in anyone's eye.

[Lars77]

16. That doesent mean he is a visionary. Don´t let that guy fool you, he´s just a populist.

[EFerrari]

17. You know, you really don't have to be a visionary to see Wall Street

has been screwing people over for hundreds of years. But to protest it in Latin America, you have to be willing to die. So, yes, Chavez has my respect for putting himself out there.

[Lars77]

18. Wow really? Do you really believe that he has any democratic intentions what so ever?

[EFerrari]

27. I don't have to believe anything. He has a decade long record to resort to. nt

[sabrina 1]

37. You don't have to 'believe it' ~ he has proven it which is why he has

been reelected so many times by his own people, in elections that have been declared the cleanest in the world, by International election observers, including Jimmy Carter. Where is all this rightwing 'anti-Chavez' garbage coming from on this site? I remember no so long ago all Democratic Forums were fully supportive of Chavez. All that money the US is spending on anti-Chavez propaganda which used to only work in the Right, appears to have filtered into the so-called 'left' recently.

Do you actually KNOW anything about Venezuela or the man you so flippantly misrepresent? Or are you just repeating the Western media's propaganda about someone who would not allow the Western Cartels to do to his country what they did to South American countries for decades?

So sick of this, what has happened to the 'left' in this country proves what the protesters on Wall St. claim both parties have been taken over by Corporate criminals. Hopefully all this is about to change and we can get back to some truth in our media.

What he and other modern S. American leaders have done for their countries should be applauded by the US 'left' and it was, until something happened around 2005 or so. I think we all know what that was.

[EFerrari]

38. They don't even know why they hate him.

Chavez reduced poverty by half and extreme poverty by 3/4 in Venezuela but he's demonic. LOL, we can't even reduce unemployment, let alone address poverty in a real way.

[Lars77]

45. I guess Amnesty International have been fooled too.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR53/009/2010/en/bf95cff8-97bc-4eb8-8e52-eaa0d2227c91/amr530092010en.html
Amnesty International believes that the arrest of Judge María Lourdes Afiuni Mora on 10 December 2009 is a case of undue political interference on the part of the executive. Her arrest is in breach of the UN Basic Principles on the Independence of the Judiciary, adopted in 1985, which specify that “he judiciary shall decide matters before them impartially <…> without any restrictions, improper influences, inducements, pressures, threats or interferences, direct or indirect, from any quarter or for any reason”.


http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR53/007/2010/en/57bd37b3-0260-473c-99e2-28b5c56c4dbf/amr530072010en.html
Rocío San Miguel, a Venezuelan human rights defender, has suffered intimidation and could be facing arbitrary arrest. She has accused high-ranking members of the Armed Forces of breaching the constitution. Her safety and her freedom could be at risk.


http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR53/003/2010/en/3c3bbdd2-ea97-4ba4-b76b-3865aea8b133/amr530032010en.html
Following the latest wave of violence in the wake of student protests around the country for and against the suspension of RCTV International, Amnesty International is calling on the authorities to guarantee the right of all people to freedom of association and expression, and to ensure that the deaths of students Yosinio Carrillo Torres, 16 years of age, and Marcos Rosales, along with the injuries suffered by dozens of other people, both demonstrators and members of the security forces,are investigated and those responsible brought to justice.


http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR53/008/2009/en/3d7f3692-36e6-4ed7-8034-0a14f2545f8c/amr530082009en.html
Mijail Martínezwas allegedly shot dead by two unknown men who had asked to speak to his father, Víctor Martínez, at his home in Barquisimeto, the capital of Lara state in western Venezuela. Mijail Martínez was an audio visual producer working for the Committee of Victims Against Impunity on documenting cases of human rights abuse. The Committee of Victims Against Impunity is a human rights organisation based in Lara that was founded in 2004.


http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/AMR53/006/2009/en
This paper examines the various shortcomings of the Venezuelan legal system in regards to universal jurisdiction. Areas covered include universal criminal jurisdiction, civil jurisdiction over torts and extradition. The report makes extensive recommendations for reform of law and practice so that Venezuela can fulfil its obligations to investigate and prosecute crimes under international law.


http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/venezuela-globovisi%C3%B3n-attack-must-be-urgently-investigated-and-journalis
Amnesty International today expressed grave concern at attacks against staff at Globovisión television station on Monday and called on the Venezuelan authorities to urgently initiate a full and impartial investigation to ensure those responsible are brought to justice.
According to reports, a group of armed individuals entered Globovisión’s main office on Monday afternoon, threw tear gas bombs and attacked staff and security guards. The attackers identified themselves as government supporters.
“Attacks against freedom of expression are a serious long standing concern in Venezuela,” said Susan Lee, Americas Director at Amnesty International. “President Chavez must guarantee that the right of the media to exercise its legitimate activity is respected, even when that includes criticism of the government.”


http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR53/007/2011/en/f3474836-cdfd-4f63-9b95-d4ee07b216db/amr530072011en.html
Amnesty International continues to receive reports of human rights violations in Venezuela, in particular with respect to the rights to life, physical integrity, freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, and freedom from arbitrary detention. There are reports of violations of the rights of human rights defenders, political opponents, journalists, trade unionists and members of the judiciary, solely because they have expressed opinions or taken actions perceived to be contrary to the interests of the government. Human rights protection is further threatened by the current public security crisis in the country. Venezuela has one of the highest murder rates in the region, including due to the large numbers of illegal firearms in circulation.


http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR53/006/2011/en/85d08545-f9bb-4aff-9a6f-3256890c92d2/amr530062011en.html
The safety of Venezuelan human rights defender Humberto Prado Sifontes, director of the Venezuelan Observatory of Prisons (Observatorio Venezolano de Prisiones) and his family are seriously at risk following a campaign of intimidation and death threats against him that began in the wake of violent disturbances at El Rodeo Prison in the state of Miranda on 12 June. Humberto Prado is a prominent defender of prisoner’s human rights who has denounced the appalling conditions in Venezuela’s prisons for many years.


http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/police-role-suspected-continued-attacks-venezuelan-family-2011-06-01
The Venezuelan authorities must tackle the culture of impunity within the country’s security forces, Amnesty International said today, after the seventh member of one family was allegedly killed by police at the weekend.


People on the left are not doing themselves any favours by praising this guy, it seems to me that a lot of people like him because he talks shit about politicians we generally do not like. At the same time you are largely ignoring truly progessive people like Lula and Rousseff in Brazil.

I am a social democrat, and i don´t think the answer is to change the constitution to put you in for life, then set up your own personal talk show on state TV. He is not looking like a responsible leader, and that is why the right is trying to paint him as the poster boy of modern socialism.


But go ahead, keep thinking you are the smartest people in the room and that people like me just don´t get what you get.

[EFerrari]

47. If you got it, you'd know the disposition of those cases

instead of just waving them around like a pompom. You'd also know about the movement to reform the security forces. You'd know the outcome of the prison riots.

And speaking of Lula, he said you can fault Chavez for a lot of things but not Democracy. And Rousseff

[joshcryer]

39. Anti-Chavez is not intrinsically "right wing." You can be left wing and anti-Chavez.

[sabrina 1]

44. Yes you can, he's a politician, there is nothing wrong with

not agreeing with his policies. However, simply lying about any politician and repeating clear propaganda with no facts, has no credibility. That is what Fox was doing regarding Chavez, and other 'left-leaning' S.A. leaders before the 'Left' decided to join them after Bush stole the second election and everyone knew the US had been behind the coup against yet another S.A. left-leaning leader.

Now it seems part of the US 'left' has somehow joined Fox and its ditto heads in their repetition of the same old propaganda. They didn't even change it much.

I remember a petition signed by tens of thousands of Democrats to demand that the Bush administration stop interfering in Venezuela's affairs and be held accountable for backing the failed, and very illegal coup to remove a democratically elected president from office. Then suddenly, things changed and we began seeing these western media propaganda pieces on a regular basis on democratic boards, no different than what used to be seen only on FR.

[joshcryer]

59. What propaganda? Lars77 has provided his sources. They're dismissed because people...

...on the left apparently cannot take criticism of Chavez, even if what is said is true.

[sabrina 1]

65. Have you seen Amnesty Int. reports on the human rights situation

in this country, and in the countries we have unlawfully invaded? Those reports make the ones posted re Venezuela look like kindergarten material. Not to mention the fact that Lars forgot to mention what was done in those cases.

Anmesty Int. has issued similar reports on almost every country in the world. That is why I called it 'propaganda', to single out Venezuela and post those reports with the intention of distortion, leading people to believe that it is unusual to see such reports from Anmesty Int. That is what they do. They find issues in every country and then point them out so that they can be improved. The US of course, ignores all such reports and has improved nothing they have been criticized for. Chavez otoh, has.

Chavez does something about issues like those when they are raised. He is a human being, not perfect by any means, but way more so than most of our Western leaders who invade and kill and torture people who have done nothing to them. When was the last time Chavez invaded someone else's country? And since even after ten years, he is still a popular president in his own country, why is the US and Americans on the right so obsessed with that country? Take three guesses!

[joshcryer]

67. This thread is a Chavez thread, where his supporters come to his beck and call and are loud.

Of course we're going to talk about Venezuela in a Chavez thread. I'm constantly amused by the implication that if you don't denounce everything and anything that suddenly you support policies that you simply don't.

After 10 years Chavez is not a popular President. Read the recently released polls.

[sabrina 1]

68. Supporters of a country's sovereignty and the right of its people to

democratically choose their own leader. I don't care who that leader is so long as the choice is the people's choice. What business is it of anyone here, why are Americans so concerned about what the people of other democratic nations decide about their own government?

Chavez was actually elected every time he ran, with a majority of the people supporting him. Unlike the US where two elections were stolen and no one did anything about it.

Maybe we ought to mind our own business which is in far worse shape than Venezuela right now, on every level. We have a horrendous human rights problem, in our prisons which are among the worst in the world, in our foreign policies, our healthcare system, education, on all those issues, Venezuela under Chavez is centuries ahead of us, so it is laughable to see these weekly western media bought and paid for planted articles criticizing a country which is way ahead of this country when it comes to taking care of its own people.

The wikileaks cables on Venezuela proved what we've always known, that Chavez and other democratic South American leaders who put their countries first, who refuse to do what the old dictators we installed there were willing to do, sell out their own people to Global Cartels, the Western powers consider them a threat. Imagine that, they preach 'democracy' but only when THEY install the leaders. And everyone who falls for the propaganda without knowing a single thing about the situation, is helping them.

South America had their version of the 'Arab Spring' starting ten years ago and Chavez was the beginning of that followed by several other countries.

For someone who claims to support the Arab Spring, you sure don't support the one that successfully preceded it and are doing all you can to help those who want to return those countries to the old days, when 80% of the people were enslaved and kept ignorant and illiterate while their resources were stolen and the collaborating traitors in their country were rewarded for their cooperation with Western powers.

The West was busy in the ME over the past ten years, unable to control, although they tried, events in South America which finally restored power to the people of the region.

I followed it as it happened, and so did most Democrats I know in 2001-2 and beyond as country after country kicked out the foreign invaders and took control of their own governments. It was the most hopeful thing to happen in the world over the past ten years as the Neocons were busy going after the resources of other countries.

It's a shame to now see people on the so-called 'left' suddenly decide that oppression and torture and disappearances and murder and the assassination of elected leaders, is what they should go back to.

They do not want us or our opinions interfering in their countries, except for the far-right elements there who cannot accept the fact that Chavez has eliminated illiteracy and cut poverty in half in just ten years, making the people stronger and more difficult to control. That was his goal. And as many of the women of Venezuela have said, that under his administration, they now can read and think for themselves and realize how important it is for them to be informed about politics.

Go ahead and support the far right in S. Amercia if you want them to go back to the old Nixon/Reagan/Kissenger brutal dictatorships, but it won't be easy. Now that the people have finally, thanks to people like Chavez, achieved independence and power, they will not be easily oppressed again.

[joshcryer]

69. Your entire post isn't credible given that Venezuela is more murderous than Iraq.

Venezuela is more unsafe than fucking Colombia for crying out loud. Worse than Colombia during the peak of the late 90s early 2000s death squads. Let that sink in a bit, why don't you? It's a horrible horrible despotism. Second or third worst place on the entire planet as far as murder is concerned.

What's cute about your post is Chavez is clearly opining about America, and its protests, but we're not allowed to opine about Venezuela and its protests? We can't point out that they https://www.google.com/search?q=protesta&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest#hl=en&hs=5SD&rls=en&channel=suggest&q=protesta+venezuela&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1824l2937l0l3080l10l4l0l5l5l1l239l750l0.3.1l6l0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbm=nws&source=og&sa=N&tab=wn&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=928bb8ec48f70805&biw=1024&bih=618">protest regularly in Venezuela? We can't point out that the Venezuelan government is even more oppressive against people who are even more impoverished?

Give me a fucking break.

edit: btw, nice dig with the "you can support right wingers" quip, which has no basis in reality and shows that you don't really believe a left winger can be anti-Chavez.

[sabrina 1]

70. More BS and more propaganda. But I've already been through

the nonsense with other supporters of the far right in Venezuela so I'm not going to waste time on that old story again.

To say that Ven. was worse than the criminal genocidal government of Colombia is an example of stunning ignorance on your part. About both countries. Bodies of people killed by GOVERNMENT forces in Colombia, are still be discovered in mass graves. To compare that to civilian crime, is exactly what I was talking about regarding Western propaganda. Thank you for the example.

There are cities in this country and elsewhere, that make Venezuela's crime rate look like a picnic.

Is it Obama's fault btw, that right down the block practically, from the WH, the murder rate is stunning. Chicago also. Is Obama responsible for that? What utter nonsense to blame a president for civilian crime in their country.

But show me one example of Chavez committing genocide, as Uribe is guilty of in Colombia, against his own people. Unbelievable. Fox News would be proud.

[joshcryer]

72. Oh so it's OK that people are dying enmasse in Venezuela because it's not behind the auspices...

...of a political organization like AUC or FARC? Murder rate is murder rate. Third most deadliest place on the planet. No, there are in fact not cities in this country and elsewhere that make Venezuela's murder rate look like a picnic. Venezuela is tops!

Murder rate in the United States is at historical lows. In Venezuela it is at historical highs. And it skyrocketed once Chavismo was adopted.



It is directly related to Chavez' corrupt policies.

edit: and again, I'm amused by the vile jabs questioning my character because I am oh so audacious as to criticize Chavez.

[sabrina 1]

79. Aren't you worried about the people dying in Libya right now and Iraq

and Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia as a result of this countries murderous wars?

Aren't you worried about the death toll on the streets of Chicago, DC, NJ and other major US cities as a result of crime and lack of education or any inclination on the part of the government to do anything about it? I can show you charts of individual US cities that are simply shocking in this country. And I could blame the President for causing it. But that would be propaganda to be used by people who want to undermine the president.

And that is what you are doing, and each time you do, you make my point about the Western propaganda machine and Venezuela, one of the world's largest oil producing nations which cleared its enslaving debt to the World Bank, liberated its people from Western Corporate control, and refuses to sell out its people's resources for the personal profit of the top 20% as was the case before Chavez was elected.

You're wasting your time when you continue to highlight the focus on a huge oil producing country that has zero to do with us other than we trade with them and we don't like doing that, we want to control their resources. As I said, South America began its Arab Spring with Chavez being the first leader to emerge from it, ten years ago. Sorry you don't support it, but not my problem

Hint, btw, civilian crime is a problem that exists almmost everywhere. Just so you know, you are using the Venezuelan version of our far right, waaaaaay far right's latest attempt to undermine a president they cannot beat in fair elections. I would be ashamed to use their destructive and treasonous material. If they cared about that country, they would work with the administration as they try to deal with so many problems created during the era of Western Control over the country.

And shameful to see you try to diminish the genocide in Colombia, especially now when it finally is beginning to be addressed as the public demands accountability for the mass graves filled with poor people whose only crime in Colombia was to speak out against the corrupt regime the US was backing.

Uribe is a criminal elected with corporate backing and foisted on Colombia, unlike Chavez who was elected by the people against the efforts of Corporate entities to stop the people from making their own choice.

Your support for those who would like to destroy S. America's version of the Arab Spring, puts into question your support for the current Arab Spring.

[joshcryer]

82. Absolutely. This thread, however, is about the hypocrite Chavez bashing the USA.

I see no need for me to bring up every issue with the USA every single time I criticize Chavez. Indeed, that would be setting the bar pretty damn high. In fact, Chavez is the only politician I have ever criticized where this tactic was used against me. That ultimately I must also relate my other criticisms against the US in order to approach a criticism of Chavez. Not the point of the debate, not relevant, my record speaks for itself, I'm not going to trot out the same points over and over again. I point out a problem with Chavismo, then I'm accused of "supporting those who would like to destroy S. America's version of the Arab Spring." Just patently false, disgusting, untrue, cruel.

As far as Venezuela is concerned, MUD is to the left of the Democratic party in the United States, and PSUV is a neoliberal wet dream. PSUV gives out contracts like mad, without vetting, without making sure Venezuelan money goes into the right hands. Fonden, PSDV, the electrical power municipilties, it's deep, very very deep. And corrupt to the core. HCR, the biggest contender and likely next President of Venezuela, is left of Obama, and probably left of the vast majority of our politicians here. Yet he is slandered as right wing by the same people who put Obama into office. All the Venezuelan opposition wants is a social democracy without the populist facade that has caused their country so much grief and put Venezuela in the top five most murderest places on the entire planet.

As far as Colombia, the half a million people killed during the AUC / FARC wars were almost exclusively civilians. They were not all political murders. Political murders make up something like 1% of 1% of all murders in Colombia over the same time period.* I find it repulsive that political murders are somehow "more important" than civilian deaths due to crime and corruption, particularly with dismissive comments like "civilian crime is a problem that exists almost everywhere." It is horrific either way you cut it. Civilian deaths from non-political crime continues to dwindle in the west, hell, it is dwindling in Colombia in fact, thanks to Santo's cracking down on AUC's death squads and continuing the crackdown on all criminals. Meanwhile it remains an indisputable fact that it is growing in Venezuela, and the administration is directly responsible for it.

15 cases of "you/your" in that entire post. Why is it that I attract people who insist on making it personal every time they pretend to engage me? I say pretend, because those who engage me and use this tactic do not particularly accept any of the factual points that I make, it's always deflected into personal insults, calling me shameful, saying I'm wasting my time, saying I'm using a Venezuelan version of the far right's latest attempts to undermine a president, saying I'm shameful to diminish genocide, etc, etc. The list goes on. Hateful, vile slurs that have no basis in reality, and just patently dishonest smears.

*

Without doubt, Colombia’s murderous violence is related to two of its most salient, the drug trade and the political violence, both of which have marred the country for decades. But less well-known and appreciated is that these two factors account only for a small portion of all murders in the country (Guerrero, 1998, p. 98). For murder, the primary risk factors are alcohol consumption, possession of firearms, and weekends. For example, a quarter of all murders take place on Sundays, more than half on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, with disproportionate increases on holidays. Most murders are non-political, take place at night, in urban areas, are committed by poor people on poor people, and alcohol is frequently found in the victims (Londoño, 1998, especially p. 75; Guerrero, 1998), although Guerrero observes that while alcohol consumption might explain the high levels it cannot explain.

http://carecon.org.uk/Conferences/Conf2002/papers/brauerc.pdf

[Lars77]

46. Yeah im actually a secret right winger who know nothing about the world

and ofcourse i am against occupy wall street..



Don´t worry, i am not actually American. I´m just a stupid scandinavian social democrat who is sceptical of populism in all its forms. That includes leaders who change the constitution to prolong their reign. And shutting down TV stations while running your own tv-show on government TV doesen´t help either in my view.


Do a seach for Venezuela on Amnesty Internationals website.

[EFerrari]

49. The RCTV shutdown was discussed here at length.

RCTV hosted the 2002 coup in their studios. They also edited their newscast video to make the public believe that Chavez's supporters had shot into a crowd when it was the golpitas that did the shooting. We know this because they were caught red handed and one of their editors quit over the incident.

Chavez did not retaliate against RCTV. His government just waited five years for their license to expire.

Your "view" seems to be very ill informed.

[Lars77]

50. I like how you write "view" like i am some sort of undercover propagandist.

[EFerrari]

51. I didn't mean that. I meant that your opinion can't really be the result of seeing

because this case was discussed at length and because it is documented on the intertubes for people who might want to see.

from Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting:

Coup Co-Conspirators as Free-Speech Martyrs
Distorting the Venezuelan media story

5/25/07

The story is framed in U.S. news media as a simple matter of censorship: Prominent Venezuelan TV station RCTV is being silenced by the authoritarian government of President Hugo Chávez, who is punishing the station for its political criticism of his government.

According to CNN reporter T.J. Holmes (5/21/07), the issues are easy to understand: RCTV "is going to be shut down, is going to get off the air, because of President Hugo Chávez, not a big fan of it." Dubbing RCTV "a voice of free speech," Holmes explained, "Chávez, in a move that's angered a lot of free-speech groups, is refusing now to renew the license of this television station that has been critical of his government."

Though straighter, a news story by the Associated Press (5/20/07) still maintained the theme that the license denial was based simply on political differences, with reporter Elizabeth Munoz describing RCTV as "a network that has been critical of Chávez."

In a May 14 column, Washington Post deputy editorial page editor Jackson Diehl called the action an attempt to silence opponents and more "proof" that Chávez is a "dictator." Wrote Diehl, "Chávez has made clear that his problem with Granier and RCTV is political."

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3107

I do not believe you are some closet right wing case at all. Rather, the demonization of Chavez by the media has been very successful.

[Little Tich]

73. The press is not free in Venezuela

according to www.freedomhouse.org. Their map of press freedom 2010 shows Venezuela as being not free. The rating is 75, the second highest in the Americas. Only Cuba has a higher higher of 93. Obviously a low rating is good, eg the US has a rating of 18.

"Media freedom declined in Venezuela in 2009 due to increased legal harassment. The authorities suppressed political opposition in the media through harsh regulation of privately owned broadcast channels. While freedoms of speech and the press are constitutionally guaranteed, the 2004 Law of Social Responsibility in Radio and Television contains vaguely worded restrictions that can be used to severely limit these freedoms. Criminal statutes assign hefty fines and long prison terms for “offending” or “denigrating” the authorities. Since 2005, defamation of the president has been punishable by 6 to 30 months in prison, while offending lower-ranking officials carries lighter punishments. Individuals can also sue the press for “public disdain” or “hatred.”"

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=251&year=2010

[joshcryer]

63. Regarding RCTV, every single propaganda piece defending their shut down neglects Venevisión.

Venevisión hosted the coupsters, and yet somehow they still have their license. Why is that? Why hasn't the Venezuelan government taken it over? Because Venevisión sat down and said that they'd be a propaganda outlet, while RCTV refused to do so.

[reorg]

56. ahem

How are term limits intrinsically good? They are subject to change if the legally required majority of a parliament makes that decision. Countries with actual "presidents for life", BTW, such as those old European monarchies with their kings and queens, apparently don't even see a reason why heads of states should be elected at all. Funny, that. And how long can the ELECTED leaders in such monarchies or other states stay in power?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/interactives/map-leaderterms/

But some people seem exclusively obsessed with the situation in Venezuela.

[joshcryer]

60. I did some research on populism vs social democracy. Social democracy wins every time.

Every.single.time. Even Venezuela and Argentina failed to reduce poverty as quickly as Chile and Brazil. It's quite telling. I don't have the time now to find the research papers, but they're fairly easy to find. Chave has turned Venezuela into a corrupt mob state which is less safe than fucking US occupied Iraq. Hundreds of people murdered a week. It's crazy.

[TBF]

81. It would be great if folks in this country could see a "populist" as a good thing. nt

[cstanleytech]

5. What "horrible repression" ? Last I checked for the most part the people staging the protests have

been left to do so providing they obey the laws.

[ixion]

6. yeah, the several thousand people arrested obviously deserved it

:sarcasm: :eyes:

[cstanleytech]

10. I mean repression as in kent state style or something

like people being sent to special camps for protesting but thats not been happening has it?

[ixion]

12. okay, that's quite a qualifier. No, it hasn't happened, yet...

but that's not to say it won't. But aside from protesters being shot and killed, there has been plenty of police brutality (mace, baton beatings, mass arrests), which is most certainly violent repression.

[joshcryer]

13. The point should be that Chavez has no moral superiority with how he's used similar tactics...

...against even more impoverished peoples.

[ixion]

15. He has as much moral superiority as any politician

here or abroad.

[joshcryer]

20. Why golly gee, I've been informed in this thread Chavez didn't even "take the bait," when...

...the "opposition" wanted violent street protests. He's above that, don't ya know?

:puke:

The guy is just as any other Latin American tyrant.

Except that he has the support of "progressives."

[ixion]

23. lol... I didn't say I supported him, I said he's the same as any other pol

that is to say: amoral and unethical and corrupt.

[geek tragedy]

26. He cheerleads massacres of Libyans and Syrians because his friends

are committing those murders.

He is a democratically-elected thug.

[EFerrari]

9. Beside the beaten, maced and arrested journalists and stuff?

[cstanleytech]

11. Reread, I said "for the most part".

You get large crowds then there is a risk of something like that happening historically but other than that there not shooting people (so far) nor are they imprisoning them for years like china has been doing have they?

[EFerrari]

14. Chavez aside, I'm a little worried about what happens when

the police, who are not used to us being out on the street as they are in other countries, get tired and annoyed or when the word comes down to clear out the encampments because you know it will. In a week or two. NYPD began beating people almost immediately. What will they be like in a month?

[joshcryer]

7. LOL, search "protesta venezuela" on Google news. Venezuela has protests regularly...

...and they http://www.entornointeligente.com/articulo/1172152/VENEZUELA-Gas-del-bueno-contra-damnificados-que-protestaban-por-viviendas-dignas">do turn violent.



You don't hear about these regular protests unless you watch Univision or know Spanish and actually read the reports from Venezuela.

Good old hypocrite Chavez.

[COLGATE4]

21. Yep. And there have been live shots of Chavez supporters

firing weapons into the opposition. Do as Hugo says, not as he does.

[joshcryer]

22. No, X-Ray of a Lie showed that those protesters were firing on police vehicles.

There was someone murdered in that spot a few hours earlier but it wasn't caught live.

It was clear that Chavez supporters had set themselves up on that bridge in order to rain down debris on the peacefully marching protesters, however, as they were hiding and waiting for the protest to go on. It was one of the most odious images I've ever seen from a protest.

[EFerrari]

29. Link?

[bitchkitty]

75. No link to his ass, which is where he pulled that from. n/t

[jefferson_dem]

19. Hugo? Ha...

Fuck that clown. He can save his lectures.

[harun]

24. Vive Chavez!

[geek tragedy]

25. Funny how Hugo didn't care about the people killed by his buddies Assad and Kadaffi.

Big old hypocrite, and a liar too.

[EFerrari]

31. I haven't seen you denouncing the completely predictable slaughter of civilians in Sirte.

Which is ongoing at this moment.

[geek tragedy]

32. According to the fiction writers at WSWS and other pro-Qadaffi outlets.

Then again, you were cheering the good Colonel on, so go figure.

[EFerrari]

33. The pro-Gaddafi outlets like Reuters, you mean?

And I have not said a single word in support of Gaddafi so that is just bullshit as usual.

[geek tragedy]

34. asdf

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1372265

You've made it quite clear which side you're rooting for in that conflict. As usual, it's whichever one is antagonistic to the US government.

[joshcryer]

35. Yep.

[ronnie624]

78. The fact of the matter is,

official Western propaganda always reflects whatever the geopolitical interests happen to be. It has been illustrated definitively, over and over again, that the media establishment promotes those interests.

EFerrari makes an honest search for truth, and the article she posted simply notes how elusive truth can be:

Ever since the Libyan uprising started on 15 February, the foreign media have regurgitated stories of atrocities carried out by Gaddafi's forces. It is now becoming clear that reputable human rights organisations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have been unable to find evidence for the worst of these. For instance, they could find no credible witnesses to the mass rapes said to have been ordered by Gaddafi. Foreign mercenaries supposedly recruited by Gaddafi and shown off to the press were later quietly released when they turned out to be undocumented labourers from central and west Africa.

You can't find truth by blindly rooting for whatever the establishment dictates.

[joshcryer]

83. Chavez happily meets the wests' geopolitical interests.

Meanwhile Chavismo is lackluster at bringing down poverty and efficient at creating a murderous mob state.

[joshcryer]

40. It's ironic that you're accused of not denouncing Sirte when the same person didn't denounce Misrata

Not one denouncement of Gaddafi's siege of Misrata. Not one denouncement of Gaddafi's siege and eventual purge of Zawiya. Not one denouncement of Gaddafi's siege of Adjabiya. Not one denouncement of Gaddafi's incursions into the western mountains. Not once denouncement of Gaddafi's intent to besiege Benghazi.

In this entire conflict only one large city in the entire country has been ardently pro-Gaddafi, and that city is Sirte. Even Bani Waled isn't pro-Gaddafi, they've been besieged by Gaddafi forces because they fled Tripoli there. It is preposterous at best, how you can be called out for something that they themselves have failed to do.

[unkachuck]

28. get well Hugo, the world needs more leaders like you....

"Poverty's growing, the misery is getting worse,"

"This movement of popular outrage is expanding to 10 cities and the repression is horrible, I don't know how many are in prison now,"

"But that empire is still there, still a threat ..."

"He's (mitt romney) been attacking Venezuela and Cuba, and talking about the malign government of Hugo Chavez. And he has the arrogance to say that God created the United States so the United States can rule the world,"

....don't fret Hugo, he's a Mormon....there are even Republicans that have issues with Mormons....

[devilgrrl]

30. what a dick!

:eyes:

[Tom Ripley]

36. Vive Chavez

[slackmaster]

41. Occupy Caracas is next, you fat ugly pig Hugo.

:nuke:

[Tarheel_Dem]

42. I can't think of anything that could decimate this movement quicker than a Chavez endorsement.

He should stay out of this, and American progressives shouldn't celebrate his involvement. Just sayin'.

[EFerrari]

48. What will the neighbors think?

lol

[Tarheel_Dem]

52. I'm sorry, but have I ever indicated that I give a shit about what you think, about...

a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g? If so, my bad. :rofl:

[EFerrari]

53. "There was no mistaking that invitation."

LOL

[Tarheel_Dem]

54. Viva la Revolucion? Chavez 2012!

:fistbump:




:rofl:

[joshcryer]

61. I predict that HCR will beat Chavez in 2012.

Chavez has incredibly low ratings as far as whether Venezuelan's want to reelect him, even with the "cancer bump" he got. Henrique Capriles Radonski is loved and adored by Venezuelan's and will march ahead.

[Tarheel_Dem]

64. Much like Ahmadin-a-jacket, he's an attention whore. Hey world, Look at Me!

:eyes:

[joshcryer]

66. The only way HCR loses is, actually, if Chavez uses the new electronic voting machines...

...to win him districts that he wouldn't otherwise win. For instance, if Miranda goes to Chavez and not HCR, it'll be a sure fire sign that the results were faked. Kinda like the 2009 Iranian elections, where large areas that were going to the opposition went to Ahmadinejad.

[defendandprotect]

43. Good for Chavez ... and that's what we need the White House and Congress to be saying !!!

[sabrina 1]

71. Yes, good for him. I too would like to hear some condemnation

from the WH and Congress of the brutality of the NYPD and other Depts for their abuse of Americans exercising their rights. But we will not. I am beginning to think that they are all just figureheads, window dressing to make it look like we have a democracy, but with no power at all.

[devilgrrl]

55. Oh no! Not Hugo Chavez!!!!!

[rayofreason]

58. "Crackdown", but not in Syria...

..no, all kiss and hugs as Assad slaughters opponents of the regime.

Chavez is a blowhard asshole who cozies up to the likes of thugs like Assad and Mugabe while talking about the "horrible repression" that somehow doesn't seem to be happening.

[Bacchus39]

77. Hugo Chavez sends solidarity to Gaddafi, Syria

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/02/us-venezuela-chavez-idUSTRE7901QW20111002



"I spoke yesterday with the president of Syria, our brother President Bashar al-Assad," Chavez said in a televised ceremony to present low-cost household appliances for Venezuelans.

"From here, we send our solidarity to the Syrian people, to President Bashar. They are resisting imperial aggression, the attacks of the Yankee empire and its European allies."

[fascisthunter]

80. nothing like a Chavez post to bring out the reich

[sabrina 1]

85. They are revealing, aren't they?

[fascisthunter]

98. like rabid dogs

you can just imagine the foaming at the mouth.

[ChangoLoa]

95. "Bashar al Assad is a humanist" and the protesters in Syria are fake agents bought by the CIA

Qaddafi is a hero, the "Bolivar of Libya" and all his people love him dearly.

Mugabe is one of the greatest "freedom fighters" in History and his opponents are, by definition, sold to western powers.

The Iranian "glorious" revolution is a true progressive revolution and Iranians who protest against it are rich kids who want to capture the oil wealth for themselves.

But the (otherwise condemnable) crackdown in Wall Street is beyond anything one could imagine...

Sure. A true lesson of ethical coherence.