Marines Eye Falluja After Futile Guerrilla Hunt

[NNN0LHI]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040424/ts_nm/iraq_falluja_guerrillas_dc&cid=564&ncid=1473

CAMP FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - Frustrated U.S. Marines itching for a new offensive in the flashpoint Iraqi town of Falluja are hoping to find plenty of what they couldn't elsewhere for the past two weeks -- guerrillas.



Marines of the 3rd platoon, 2nd battalion, 7th Marine regiment have scoured five Iraqi towns in the volatile Anbar province but the enemy was nowhere in sight, baffling soldiers eager to fight in Falluja, the region's hotspot.


"If we find them, we kill them. The more they run the longer we may be here -- two months, five months, two years, 10 years," said Lance Corporal Don Gray of Huntsville, Texas.


Marines launched an offensive on Falluja on April 5 after four U.S. contractors were killed in the fiercely anti-American town. Hundreds of Iraqis, including civilians, were killed in the fighting.

more

[FreakinDJ]

1. Falluja will be the blood bath that turns the world against us

Be it the reports to come out are slow or immediate i am sure the story will reach the rest of the world

Once the story comes out we won't have a friend in the world.

This doesn't mean much on its own until you look at it in the context of the war on terrorism. Once you realize our Intel efforts rely on the cooperation of other countries to allow our agents (FBI and CIA) to operate there. Also their cooperation in access to their monetary and banking systems in tracking the supporting money for terrorist operations. then you will understand we really don't stand a chance of this "Go it Alone" attitude the Mis-Administration is pursuing.

Closer to the fact the Administration is pursuing a perpetual war footing now aimed at Muslims world wide

[kalian]

2. Just like Jenin was Israel's turning point....

The entire world saw Israel (in particular its government) for what
they really are...

[BJ]

3. Marine braggadocio inflames situation

"Falluja will be nasty. I hear there are lots of them in Falluja, but we will kill them," said Gray, who would not discuss his unit's next moves.

Remember, more Iraqis can read and speak English than Americans can read and speak Arabic.

The Marine Corps is racist, elitist and the latter day successor to the Waffen SS! It should be reformed or abolished.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

10. Try to make sense.

He want's them disbanded. It sounds like you are the
one that supports them, so perhaps you should enlist and
volunteer for duty in Iraq?

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NNN0LHI]

19. "I did my time in combat and would go back if they would let me."

I hear Blackwater Security is hiring. They have mercenaries hanging all over the place in Iraq. Lots of Iraqis to liberate too. Why ain't you over there already by the way? You ain't scared, are you Rambo?

Don

[lowreed]

37. $1000.oo/day !

[bemildred]

22. Skip all the "patriotic" bullshit.

This is what the US military is about:

WAR IS A RACKET

http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm


THE BRIDGE

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/archive/scoop/stories/3c/e1/200404151127.b91b72d0.html

Edit: War Is the Health of the State

http://struggle.ws/hist_texts/warhealthstate1918.html

[saigon68]

25. Adios

[saigon68]

24. No he's right about certain marines

The Portsmouth naval prison used to be filled with these types.

They are all over in military prisons

[bestvoice]

39. And

certain Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Policeman,FBI agents etc. are in jails as well.

Remember,The Armed Forces are a cross section of society. As are the civil servants. So, Bro, ease off. It is not about the warriors, it is about the ones who send them. I don't think there is as much difference btwn them and us as we would hope to see.

[saigon68]

43. It is about a lot of Criminals in Uniform

There were hundreds of them at LBJ in 1968

Here's a little thing you might want to read about the thousands who are currently in Military Correctional Facilities.



http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cpus9808.pdf

[bestvoice]

50. As a Chaser

I was well aware of the criminals in the military penal system. But just as criminals are the exception in society, so it is in the military.

Thanks for the read. So what? The military justice system is aggressive in its handling of criminals. I see the glass half full on this point.

[saigon68]

54. You may be aware of the Criminals

But a lot of people here aren't aware of all the murderers, thieves, child molesters, burglars and rapists in the military.

They see troops as all good and all huggy, when the truth is that some troops are merely THUGS and criminals. They are a disservice to the many millions of us who have served with honor and distinction and at times I point that out.

Then usually a few freeper type cretins rush to the aid of the military criminals, accuse me of being a communist, unamerican or a terrorist and then the freepers are promptly banned. (see Posts Below)

The military needs the CID, OSI and the JAG Corps as much as civilians need a police force.

[bestvoice]

57. Awareness

<But a lot of people here aren't aware of all the murderers, thieves, child molesters, burglars and rapists in the military>

A lot of people here seem to be very astute when it comes to knowledge of the bad guys in the ranks.

I am not accusing you of anything Bro. A small minority is not the norm is my point. And as a chaser, escorting the criminals to thier new digs and letting them know I no longer considered them part of my fraternity was bittersweet

And to repeat myself, the military is a cross section of society. What you see on the outside is also on the inside.

[saigon68]

58. Never argued about the cross section

Where were you? Pm me

[Ernesto]

26. Welcome aboard soileddeeds

Just the other night I Made a post defending our Marines near Falluga only to get flamed for my lack of humanty.... I will not stand for anybody smearing our Marines.... I served in a shithole called Vietnam & I think I have an idea of what these guys are going thru. So many un-informed DUers don't seem to realize that the USMC's job is to kill people & destroy things.... It's the Marine Corps not the Peace Corps, stupid...... Semper Fi

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Character Assassin]

53. Think much?

Please explain exactly how the statement to which you refer is 'racist'.

No, realy. Go ahead.

[Mike Niendorff]

51. "under the name of Democrats"

Wow, cool!

I didn't realize that simply by posting to a privately-run web board, I suddenly get the power to speak for an entire major political party!

So, without further ado, let me put this newfound superpower to good use!

<*ahem*>

"I Hereby Declare that the Democratic Party speaks as follows:

"(1) We were wrong to allow George W. Bush and his Election Fraud Team to steal the election of 2000. We failed at our most basic responsibility, and we hereby apologize to the American people -- and to the world -- for allowing the Bush monstrosity to come to power without more than timid whimpers of objection.

"(2) We were wrong to collaborate with George W. Bush and his gang of crooks in their rape of the treasury and their shredding of the Bill of Rights. On bended knee, we beg the forgiveness of our children and our grandchildren for our failure to protect the fundamental civic inheritance that generations before us fought tooth and nail to provide them. We were derelict in our duty, and for that we stand ashamed and disgraced. Forgive us.

"(3) We were wrong to collaborate with the Bush Thieves in their designs for international military aggression. Thousands have died, tens of thousands have been injured and maimed, and all in the name of carefully calculated lies couched in a campaign of deception. We were not "duped". We knew better. Everyone knew better. We were simply spineless and afraid, too cowed by the Bush Propaganda Machine to risk our fortunes and positions by standing firm against their madness. The blood that has been spilled will not wash from our hands any more than it will wash from theirs.

"(4) These things being said, we ask only that you understand our the circumstances in which we have acted. Our Senate leaders have been targetted for assassination with anthrax. Two Senate candidates have been murdered. Three thousand were burned and crushed to death, while the Emperor blithely fiddled and read a children's book, and his advisors plotted to exploit their deaths as a pretext for war in Iraq. Our nation's "free press" -- which, once upon a time, held such peopel to account -- has been bought up, corrupted, gutted and turned into a fascist propaganda organ. Doubly so for the AM radio dial. We no longer can trust that our votes will be counted correctly -- or, as in Florida 2000, that they will even be counted at all. Our private strategy files have been breached, electronically rifled, and fed to our enemies. Districts have been "redesigned" to artificially inflate the enemy's numbers, and our representatives have been threatened with prosecution when they did not accede. Churches have been systematically infiltrated, corrupted and turned from houses of worship into glorified party-front-organizations. The Thieves have, without any legal authority, established their own secondary court and prison systems, subject to no one but themselves, and accountable to no law but their own authoritarian whims. Our final course of appeal is to the the same judges who illegally appointed these criminals in the first place.

"Our great crime is our pathological complacency -- our stubborn refusal to admit the nature of the threat bearing down on us -- until the beast had its teeth into the nation's heart. We did not create this threat, but neither did we stand firm against it.

"Of these crimes we now humbly repent, and we ask your support as we now stand togehter in fighting the good fight to drive these fascists back under the rocks from which they came.

"Sincerely, Mike Niendorff
Random Web Poster, and, thereby, the official spokesperson for the Democratic Party"

-----


MDN

[bestvoice]

11. 19 yr old opinion

The quote was from a young Marine. 20 years old, 21 maybe. Frustrated at seeing his buddies killed and maimed he is voicing more testerone than rational thought. And outside of the company level, he doesn't know what the plan is.

But BJ, onto your opinions:

<The Marine Corps is racist>

Marines are taught to hate and kill the enemy as long as the enemy continues to resist within the bounds of the rules of land warfare. It is not a racist policy so much as a warfare survival mindset. To dehumanize the other side is to aid in quenching the moral problem that western armies have of the tenet inculcated from birth of "Thou shalt not kill". Does the policy encourage racism? If one is already carefully taught from birth, yes. Is it racism? Not in the definition that people ascribe to the word. Is the Marine Corps a racist military society? No.

<elitist>

Oh yeah. No apology or explanation needed.

<and the latter day successor to the Waffen SS>

Historically, the French Foreign Legion was the next step for the Waffen SS discharged after WWII. And the US Army Special Forces still have the lightning bolts on their units crest. No big secret where the design idea originated. So your opinion that the all races, both genders, all religious beliefs respected Marine Corps is the latter day Aryan race, hate mongering, "I was following orders" Waffen SS is historically and factually wrong.

Not that anything will change your mind.

And just for the purpose of establishing my basis for the above facts,
22 year veteran of the USMC, (ret).

[Kagemusha]

18. If the officers showed any sign of understanding guerilla warfare

I would feel far more secure. But, they don't.

[bestvoice]

21. Learning curve

1. Guerilla warfare. The veterans of Vietnam are gone or way above the tactical fighting level i.e. Regiment/ Battalion/ Company. So this is a learn as you go excersize. And as the pentagon never fights the next war, only the last one, the officers are having to rely on a almost forgotten warfighting book from the 20's for ideas.

2.Combined with intense urban warfare. It appears that NO lessons were gained from the fighting in Somalia. House to house is the most dangerous fighting. The opposing force has a very intimate knowledge of his area. We lack allies in Falujah proper and a knowledge of the city.

As far as allies go, instead of trying to get an apology from bush, the dumbass reporters should have asked if he is ever going to ask for advice and guidance from the Arab people. This "We're Americans and we are here to help" crap ain't working. Maybe, Mr Rumsfield, someone from southwest asia knows more about how to bring this affair to an and than you and your suit and tie bean counters do?

3. Combined with a idealogical not a national war. It is a war about beliefs not statehood. There were a few ideas that worked during Vietnam that have yet to be tried. As an example, the Marines during Vietnam assigned a squad to a village. Both sides were able to put a human face to each other. And the program was so effective that the NVA offered bountie on the Marines involved. Once each side sees that the other shares many hopes and dreams and family affections, this war should be on its way to being far less of a life taking venture than it is now. In other words, is not the ideology of a better life for me and my family and helping my fellow man a shared, easily communicated, idea? And as Americans, don't we have the assets to spread the word?

Or is this dumbass Marine being to maudlin?

[saigon68]

30. too maudlin

the ideology of corporate greed and christainity is being spread by an armed force ill trained to be policeman

The bush criminals will be forced from Iraq sooner or later. But only after a lot of not too bright 19 year olds are taking long dirt naps.

[Ernesto]

32. Welcome aboad bestvoice!

Semper Fi & lets hear more from ya!

[coltman]

14. Why did you post this?

Wouldn't they take you?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

4. Don't they teach US soldiers about guerrilla warfare?

Marines of the 3rd platoon, 2nd battalion, 7th Marine regiment have scoured five Iraqi towns in the volatile Anbar province but the enemy was nowhere in sight, baffling soldiers eager to fight in Falluja, the region's hotspot.

"If we find them, we kill them. The more they run the longer we may be here -- two months, five months, two years, 10 years," said Lance Corporal Don Gray of Huntsville, Texas.

What I don't get is why these guys are surprised. After all, what is described (not finding anyone to fight) is EXACTLY what guerrilla warfare is all about. "Farmer by day - guerrilla by night" and all that sort of thing.

Shit, show them a couple of Vietnam War movies and they might get it.

:eyes:

[rooboy]

5. Well, they did have Bruce Willis over there a while back. n/t

[bemildred]

12. That's it! Send Bruce in.

I've seen him kill hundreds of bad guys all by himself!
The war will be over tomorrow.

[NNN0LHI]

8. Send out a battalion and they won't find nothing.

Send out a platoon and they won't come back. Nothing new here.

Don

[anarchy1999]

17. Oh dear god, please, please make it stop.

n/t

[Bob3]

6. Who the hell are training these guys?

"Marines of the 3rd platoon, 2nd battalion, 7th Marine regiment have scoured five Iraqi towns in the volatile Anbar province but the enemy was nowhere in sight, baffling soldiers eager to fight in Falluja, the region's hotspot."

Anybody who knows anything about the theory of Guerrilla warfare knows that when faced with an overwhelming force Guerrillas will fade into the woodwork only to re-emerge when the odds are in their favor.

I should hope our guys know a little bit about who they are fighting this John Wayne stuff is going to get people killed.

[Kagemusha]

15. I read some really good stuff about guerillas on juancole.com

Really good classic stuff by a Prof Polk, a few posts down from the latest. It's excellent stuff about how guerilla warfare is primarily a political enterprize, replacing the government with a guerilla 'government' at the ground level. Only once the guerillas have legitimacy and people have a dependent relationship with them can they really take the fight to the enemy (like the Mahdi Army and Hamas). And only by winning hearts and minds and establishing local rule on a block by block, quarter by quarter basis, can guerillas be truly defeated.

Fascinating stuff really.

[saigon68]

59. this John Wayne stuff is going to get people killed

the few the proud we report you decide fair and balanced

[TahitiNut]

60. That's for sure.

Nothing attracted jeers and catcalls in 'Nam as much as "Green Berets." That movie is a farce -- a sad, misguided, mythic, dangerous farce. I don't remember anything that was as unanimous among all the troops as the total disgust at that movie.

[markses]

7. Faster PUSSYcat, KILL KILL KILL!

:eyes:

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

13. It's Vietnam all over again

from the point of view the other side will not engage our troops in the traditional WWII manner.
As I like to say, fighting terrorism in this fashion (troops, bombs etc) is like hunting mosquitoes with a shotgun. Futile, frustrating and fatal...............

[nonbelief]

47. Terrorism?

Since when is Iraq about terrorism?

[DemoTex]

20. Will Falluja be another Hue '68?

USMC in Hue, February 1968. Were any lessons learned? Certainly. Does Bu$hco heed the lessons of history? Certainly not.

[amandabeech]

23. Well, the only one of these sailors on a ship of fools

who was in combat in Vietnam is Colin Powell, and he's been in the brig for some time. It's obvious that he did not want to go into Iraq unless he absolutely had to, but even he, with his "Powell Doctrine" of overwhelming force may not have learned the lessons about guerrilla war. Other generals who remember Vietnam seem to have resigned or are keeping their mouths shut.

It's looking like a cross between Somalia and Vietnam, and now will include a serious Navy presence to protect the Basra terminal and any off-shore wells. Today's attacks on the terminal and the off-shore platforms may portend a larger naval war in the Persian Gulf and other waters in the area. I expect that tankers will be targets, as well.

[SpeakEasy]

27. Am I the only Dem here that supports our efforts to clean up Iraq?

I would really like to see the country become democratic and free of the tyrants and abusers. Our brave Marines are there fighting for their lives and I support them 100%. US Marines are not racist or criminals.

[demgrrrll]

29. Check out the Daily Kos today. Apparently the Chimperor is deciding

as we speak whether or not to go all out in Falluja. Scary
stuff.

[SpeakEasy]

31. This goes well beyond the chimp

When Kerry takes over next year I hope the comments on our troops here become more positive. I know the hatred of bush brings out the worst in people but I see no reason to diss our troops.

[Durandal]

34. I agree 120%

Now, I don't support war in any way at all, but to openly smear mud on the very people giving away their lives for us just seams profane. Also, calling an entire group of people racist or criminal is wrong. Isn’t that "labeling" someone? How would you feel if I called all African Americans criminal? (I'm NOT saying they are, I’m just trying to make a point.) What’s the difference between calling all Marines criminal, and all African Americans criminal? I know this is a touchy subject, but are you seeing my point? I absolutely DO NOT support war in any way, but I at least have respect for the people over there dieing on our behalf.

[nonbelief]

49. Tyrants and abusers?

In case you haven't been keeping up with the news, the U.S occupiers ARE the tyrants and abusers in Iraq now.

[Mike Niendorff]

56. You are probably the only one here who *believes* that their presence ...

... has *anything* to do with "cleaning up" Iraq.

Ditto for BushCo's lies about "democracy" and "freedom". Hell, they don't even believe in democracy for *this* country, let alone Iraq (see Election 2000, if your memory fails you).

These crooks are using American soldiers as de facto mercenaries for the petroleum industry, and then abusing the memories of the dead as a tool for silencing domestic dissent. It is beyond shameful. It is treasonous.

For christ's sake, the people running this "war of liberation" are the same ones who *propped up* Hussein in the first place (see: 1980's, Iran-Iraq War, etc). They didn't give a rat's ass about human rights then, and they don't give a rat's ass about them now. This is simply about control of "strategic resources", as it has been for a long, long time.


MDN

[Jacobin]

61. One of few, most likely

BTW, "cleaning up" Iraq?

Does that mean knocking off Iraqis who want the invading occupiers to leave their country?

If so, I don't support it. I thought we were there for WMD (oops, nevermind), or to get rid of Saddam (oops, already done that), or bring them democracy (oops, won't let them have elections), steal their oil (that's going pretty well, but its expensive as hell).

What is the latest justification of those who support "cleaning up" Iraq for killing their citizens who want the invading occupying forces to leave?

Oil? (buy your own, don't steal it)
Israel? (let them fight their own wars)
Stability in the M.E. ?(please give me a fricking break)

[jpgray]

28. Lcpl Gray doesn't seem to understand Iraqi guerillas will outlast him

No matter how many of them he is able to kill. This is a war that guns and bombs will not win, and the sooner people understand that, the better.

[NNN0LHI]

33. The Iraqi guerrilla's have only two ways home

Death or victory.

Don

[saigon68]

35. LCpl Gray Needs to learn to keep his "MOUTH SHUT".

He's kind of like that Sgt the other day guarding the check point outside Falluja who bragged " I HAVE KILLED LOTS OF THESE MOTHER FUCKERS"

Do they think their comments will not inflame the Arab World ???? BUT GOOD marines NEVER WORRY ABOUT THAT THEY JUST BLAST THE SHIT OUT OF ANYTHING THAT MOVES AND FOLLOW ORDERS.

[SpeakEasy]

38. Why are you bashing our Marines?

Are you siding with the people trying to kill them?

[bestvoice]

41. Yes and no

When it comes to military topics, some posters suffer from myopia. Unable or unwilling to take a shot at understanding their brothers and sisters choice to serve their nation in this manner, an attack on the tool and not the ones wielding it is the first response. My observation.

And some here do side with the Iraqis as M. Moore does, viewing the insurgents as freedom fighters.

I do my best to step back and mentally chew on the different reasons people here are at times so vitriolic. Perspective, use it or lose it.

[saigon68]

46. Adios SpeakEasy

Its been good to know you



NOT

Why don't you disrupters just learn to debate the point ????

[Jacobin]

62. I'm siding with the people who want the invading conquistidors

out of their country.

Last time I checked, Iraq was its own country and we don't own it, have a claim to it, or have ANY right to be there whatsoever.

[Ernesto]

36. I got outlasted in Vietnam

I didn't start that war & this kid didn't start this one. The L/Cpl is in for the fight of his life, what would you expect him to say?

[bestvoice]

40. Lance Corporal Gray

only understands that he and his buddies want to come home alive after the mission is complete. Staying alive is his top priority. Not understanding the big story. Chances are L/Cpl Gray will be long gone from Iraq and the war will still be going on.

[saigon68]

48. One thing for sure

A lot more people like LCpl Gray will be dead for nothing because of President Cheney's corporate greed .

[daleo]

42. "Two years, ten years"

It is too bad Bushco wouldn't have mentioned 10 years when he was rolling out the advertising for the invasion. Lance Corporal Don Gray may not be quite as keen on this adventure in April 2014, if he is still there.

[spinbaby]

44. Obviously, the Guerrillas are in Fallujah

After all, if you can't find them outside of Fallujah, they must be in Fallujah.

[nonbelief]

52. You know....

Reading the wonderful posts here in support of the American troops in Iraq, I can't help but think of what the average German thought of those brave German soldiers fighting for the Fatherland in Poland, France and the Netherlands.

Brings a sentimental tear to the eye, don't it?

[bestvoice]

55. Military myopia

And the jack booted thugs will be at your door soon to send you to the camps. You didn't really think we weren't monitoring your online activity?

Military=evil

But, vote for Kerry, he is a good military vet. We hope.

Yeesh