Accused Soldiers Didn't Know Geneva Rules

[baldguy]

You have got to be f-ing kidding me!

"The acknowledgment that the soldiers did not receive in-depth training on international covenants regarding the handling of prisoners echoes complaints from Army Reserves Staff Sgt. Ivan "Chip" Frederick, one of the six facing court-martial, and his civilian lawyer in Washington, Gary Myers."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=13&u=/ap/20040430/ap_on_re_mi_ea/us_iraq_prisoner_abuse_3

[madmax]

1. Yada, Yada

bullpucky! Ignorance of the law is NO excuse.

[saigon68]

19. HERE IS THE PREVAILING RE- PUKE RESPONSE

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1127572/posts


To: NotchJohnson
this is the reason you should never keep prisoners for more than 24 hrs...do what you need to do to extract necessary info,,,then do the 3 "s" dance..shoot, shovel, shutup.

reverse situation: just how close to the geneva convention would the ragheads adhere in dealing with our POW's??

our guys don't really need to torture them that much..just hang 'em up, bring a great big hawg in..extract a syringe of blood from it, cut the prisoner's genitals off and inject him with the syringe of pig's blood and then "send him to allah". the rest would be singing like canaries.

no!!! that's not cruel..it is expedient. after they tell you what they know or what they think you want to know..do them the same way...pretty soon someone is going to be telling the truth.

50 posted on 04/30/2004 3:48:13 PM PDT by cajun-jack
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies[br />
To: NotchJohnson
I don't go for the sex torture etc, it is not appropriate. However, psychological warfare is appropriate. For example, kill a pig in front of them and have a disguised (put a pull start diaper on his head or something) US Soldier walk through it. Then ask your questions; then release a handful back. Some will be killed by their own as traitors and the others will spread fear among their fellow creeps.

39 posted on 04/30/2004 3:26:47 PM PDT by Henchman (I Hench, therefore I am!)
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies >

To: NotchJohnson
That's what happens when you have gays and women in the military.

3 posted on 04/30/2004 2:21:38 PM PDT by Brilliant
< Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies >

To: NotchJohnson
I do not see any physical torture here. They just humiliated them that someone in the media got pictures. The prisoners probably were glad they were still alive. During the Iranian/Iraq 8 year war, it was full of atrocities. I don't remember in that war Muslims caring about the daily atrocities one iota.
This matter is being overblown by the partisan press because they can.


36 posted on 04/30/2004 3:12:39 PM PDT by demlosers (John Kerry is an insult to gigolos everywhere.

[jimshoes]

26. These freeps are levels below proto-human

How fucking sick is that shit with the syringe and pigs blood! These fucks need to be isolated as to have no contact with the rest of the human race. Forever!

[AbbeyRoad]

28. They are dinosaurs on the human evolutionary chain

Those people are some seriously sick fucks. Yeah, I'm sure they care about Iraqi freedom. :eyes:

[kdmorris]

27. That is one of the most disgusting

things I've ever read!! How do people get that sort of lack of empathy for the pain and suffering of others? How do people get so warped?

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[saigon68]

30. THERE ARE LOTS OF THESE NAZI NUTS OUT THERE

They are recruiting more.

Do you think people like this would have any thoughts whatsoever before passing over to the "DARK SIDE" ???


THESE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE WAR CIMINALS

[BiggJawn]

45. Bet not a damn one of them ever wore the uniform..

Chickenhawks talk a good show but they're full of shit.

[saigon68]

48. Absolutely

Lots of wannabe killers---LOL

[Pallas180]

2. Did they know the rules of common decency? what utter

b -s . And they think that's an excuse for subhuman behavior?

[markses]

7. Indeed - It's not as if they were violating an arcane "technical" statute

of Geneva. I'm mean, really...

[saigon68]

31. THE PRINCIPLES WERE FIRST ARTICULATED IN HAMMURABIS CODE

Its very hard to type without wanting to scream your head off.

[saigon68]

57. HERE'S THE TRANSCRIPT OF THE VILE ACTS

At the Article 32 Hearing (like a grand jury hearing) Specialist Matthew Wisdom, an M.P under
oath stated

Wisdom said:
SFC Snider grabbed my prisoner and threw him into a pile. . . . I do not think it was right
to put them in a pile. I saw SSG Frederic, SGT Davis and CPL Graner walking around the
pile hitting the prisoners. I remember SSG Frederick hitting one prisoner in the side of its
ribcage. The prisoner was no danger to SSG Frederick. . . . I left after that.
When he returned later, Wisdom testified:
I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open. I
thought I should just get out of there. I didn’’t think it was right . . . I saw SSG Frederick
walking towards me, and he said, ““““Look what these animals do when you leave them
alone for two seconds.”””” I heard PFC England shout out, ““““He’’’’s getting hard"

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

[Aristus]

3. Nevermind the rules.

What about common, human decency? Do they have none of that??

:grr::mad::grr::mad:

[LiberalFighter]

4. How would they expect to be treated if they were POW's?

Or do they think only Americans are entitled to be treated humanely and with respect?

[chookie]

15. As Will Pitt pointed out earlier today on this matter,

If the guys in these photos were Americans, we'd be "exercising our nuclear option."

But we expect the Iraqis to understand that with every liberation army, there are a few bad apples, and that they need to get over this and enjoy FreedomTM.

I think Muslims in general -- who were perhaps more than slightly suspicious of Bush's motives and goals -- probably hate us more today than they did yesterday. Bummer.

On a small scale, they're acting out the George W Bush fantasy of subjugation and power. Doing stupid things, bad things. that have terrible consequences, hoping you won't get found out.

What they did was utterly immoral and depraved, but PHOTOGRAPHING themselves to get giggles from their pals (presumably) back home -- that was also DUMB.

Dumb is what got us into the war. Dumb is what made the war go so badly. And Dumb just made it a hell of a lot worse.

A lot more people are going to die on both sides as the result of this little "frolic" in Abu Ghraib.

[maddezmom]

5. common sense tells you not to take "semi- pornographic" photos

:eyes:

Granted their superiors need to be brought up on charges, but no one can dismiss this behavior because they didn't know Geneva Rules.

[htuttle]

6. "I forgot it was wrong to fuck prisoners up the ass"

Hmm....don't think that's gonna fly.

[yellowcanine]

8. There had better be some officer resignations over this.

Also, who was responsible for making sure the Red Cross had access to the prisoners? The NCAA would call this kind of thing "Lack of Institutional Control." What does the military call it? Rumsfield and Bush bear ultimate responsibility, not that they will acknowledge that. In a parlimentary system this could trigger a Defense Minister resignation, if not the Prime Minister.

[jimshoes]

10. My thoughts exactly

And if there isn't already a rule for proper prisoner protocol, which I'm 99.999% sure there is, it should have been drilled into every soldier in the "coalition" troops top to bottom.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

12. So far no one has fallen onto any sword during the whole Bush

administration, including in the military.

Even the art of scapegoating people to deflect blame from yourself seems completely lost on these guys. The basic position seems to be, "nothing wrong ever happened during our watch." No matter how bad some of it looks.

Anyone come up with any examples of anyone being sacked or resigning in disgrace? Only Paul O'Neill and Christine Todd Whitman?

[Eye and Monkey]

20. Harvey Pitt.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/06/politics/main528441.shtml

Securities and Exchange Commission Chairman Harvey Pitt resigned under pressure Tuesday night after a series of political missteps that embarrassed the Bush White House just when it needed to shore up investors unnerved by accounting scandals.

[chookie]

9. So you have to be TOLD not to do stuff like this.

I may have gotten mad and frustrated enough at some nasty Iraqi prisoner enough to have clouted him a good one out of sheer anger -- that would be an understandable human response -- BUT never in my wildest dreams would I ever think of humiliating them in this obscene manner and photographing them while posing over them -- that was sheer savagery, utter depravity.

[calimary]

33. It really doesn't matter who didn't know which technicality.

A simple consideration of The Golden Rule seems all that's necessary. Especially since the bushies were the ones who made such a big stink out of the "rape rooms" and torture chambers that Saddam supposedly ran. You JUST DON'T TREAT YOUR FELLOW MAN(WOMAN) LIKE THIS. I DON'T CARE WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES. We would not want our soldiers treated like this, if they were in enemy custody. In fact, we'd be screaming like sirens. Just ANY WAY YOU CUT IT, this is NOT okay.

[chookie]

34. Americans would be more than screaming

As Will Pitt pointed out, if the guys in the hoods had been American, we'd have exercised our nuclear option by now.

Ironically, in the Rose Garden today, he congratulated himself on having ridded Iraq of torture rooms. Ooops. Maybe he meant ridded Iraq of torture rooms run by Saddam Hussein, to be replaced by ones run by the Coalition of the Killing.

Yeah yeah, there may be rogue elements in any situation, but this whole war is rogue from top to bottom. I guess we're supposed to think the soldiers had been influenced by the actions of Saddam Hussein there, when maybe they were just acting out the George W Bush fantasy of power and subjugation on their own modest scale.

[teryang]

53. The chimps comments on torture and rape rooms

...yesterday was particularly ill timed. It was a huge gaf. I wondered how the press corps kept from laughing out loud as the next journalist launched into the obvious question of sadism and abuse by American soldiers in the former Saddam prison.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

11. Bull Shit. I went through endless Law of War classes in Boot Camp

I bet they did too.

The fact they forgot it is not my problem.

[tabasco]

22. That's right - mandatory training for all soldiers every year.

I know it's his lawyer, but to hear a Staff Sergeant claim ignorance of the rules is sad. Will not be an effective argument at court-martial.

[saigon68]

39. I got that too.

And as a training NCO I was responsible for teaching it.

And the CODE of Conduct. Remember that Vets?

And my orders were specific.

Any type of behavior out of line was immediately reported.

Something was majorly rotten here

[mom cat]

13. Not knowing right from wrong is the insanity defence.

Using that defence is an insult to all the poor souls who are truly insane. These attrocities represent the natural extention of the imperial mentality behind this illegal war. It is the leaders in the Bush coup govermnent who,like these soldiers knows right from wrong, they just don't give a damn. It is the same mentality that has infected every other imperialist venture in history.

[atreides1]

14. And So It Begins

Get ready folks the slaps on the wrists are going to handed out, and there will probably be no punishments given to these pieces of excrement who call themselves soldiers.

Isn't it typical, you get caught doing something that is totally evil
and inhumane, and then you cry like a baby that "my mommy didn't tell me what the rules were".

It seems to me that the parents of these things forgot to teach them about common decency, or perhaps they taught them that only white skinned people were to be treated humanly.

Didn't the mother of the female, say that this was "stuff kids do", boy I'm glad I wasn't a kid in that town.

And then there is the part played by those great upholders of law the FBI and let's not forget their CIA buddies, who along with the
contractors were probably receiving their orders directly from Washington. Don't count on anything happening to them either, I bet they all carry one of those "get out of jail free cards."

The fact is that this was a military prison, but yet it seems that the military wasn't in charge.

[PartyPooper]

16. "Sorry, my dog ate my copy of the UCMJ so I didn't read it."

:eyes:

[Kadie]

17. You mean they need to be told specifically not to treat other people

that way? If that is the case, then they need to be locked up for the rest of their lives so they can't hurt anyone else.

Sorry officer, Sorry Judge, I didn't know there way a law against that. Can I go home now?

[Eye and Monkey]

25. +"ignorance of the law is no excuse" - so will say any right-minded judge

Google the whole phrase - +"ignorance of the law is no excuse" - you get 16,100 hits.

Not exactly an unknown phrase in our culture. But this is what is offered by the soldiers, the military, the misunderadministration, and their pets the media.

We're sliding faster now.

[Occulus]

50. You know, though,

with all the federal, state, and local laws we have on the books here... you'd have to be a lawyer to not be ignorant of the law. Keep in mind, that phrase- ignorance of the law is no excuse- applies to all of the thousands upon myriad thousands of laws, and to all of us. Every man,woman, and child.

Think about that. Really think. Is that truly a reasonable expectation?

[murielm99]

40. Maybe they are just following the example set for them by * and co....

You DO have to be specifically told, or it is not your responsibility.

9/11 anyone? We did not have enough specific info...how could we have known? They did not tell us the flight and seat numbers...etc, etc.

Nothing is our fault...Clinton did it....

[amazona]

18. what a mess

The fact that one of the soldiers was keeping a journal to document what he did tells me that he knew something was wrong but was getting pressure from the top. We put our soldiers in an unfair position. If they had not "softened" the prisoners as ordered, would they have been sent to more hazardous duty or court-martialed. It's a hell of a bind.

[TreasonousBastard]

21. SINCE WHEN:??????

I got classes in the Geneva Convention when I was in basic training.

There are JAG officers up the ass over there, and all the officers in charge should have known about Convention rules.

I did hear something about the Brigadier in charge being relieved, but I don't know how far down the line it went.

They thought they were being cute. It happens in every war, and this is no worse than so many other things that have been done in wars over the centuries. But claiming ignorance of the rules is a desperate defense. They have no real defense. They got caught, and they're going to burn.

[AbbeyRoad]

23. US Prison Guard

Isn't one of the torture perpetrators a prison guard in the US? You'd think he'd be familiar with how to treat prisoners, right? I wonder if prisoners here in the States at his former place of employment have any interesting stories to tell.

[saigon68]

38. He has to be careful here

My take he's taking out his repressed sadism out in a Place that has no rules

He probably all his life wanted to kick the shit out of a dark skinned prisoner. Now it looks like he got his chance.

[bobthedrummer]

60. Sgt. Frederick has 6 years experience as a Virginia corrections officer

he's 37, he was the NCO looked to for leadership:puke:
OTOH, the spooks ran the place:nuke:

[bpilgrim]

24. wouldn't be suprised if we aren't TRAINING our people in matters of the GC

and if we aren't providing that training we need to FIX the problem STARTING with GITMO :argh:

peace

[Redleg]

43. Are you Kurt Vonnegut?

Just checking- you never know.

[BlueStateGirl]

29. I believe it. We're talking about an MP reserve unit that probably spent

it's Reserve weekends washing cars for the officers on station.

It is in no way , shape or form an excuse or justification for what they did. But it's probably true.

[bloom]

32. Sounds like lawyer spin to me -

I think they were aware of the rules.

<snip>

"An Army Reserve official who spoke Friday on the condition of anonymity responded angrily to the claims of lesser responsibility by soldiers, in light of photos of abused Iraqis that were taken by the military police officers.

"That's nonsense," snapped the official, who is familiar with reservists' training. "These soldiers are military policemen, and they all were trained for their special duties. They all were drilled thoroughly in the rules of the Geneva Convention, and they all certainly knew that what they were doing when photographed was flat-out wrong."

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-liguard0501,0,204926.story?coll=ny-worldhomepage-headlines

[saigon68]

61. Absolutely

spot On

[progressivebydesign]

35. And these incidents are probably NOT isolated ones..

.. and these people are coming back home (the ones that don't get caught) to our neighborhoods... Scary stuff.

[progressivebydesign]

36. NOW does anyone finally believe that carboard sign story?

Remember.. the one where they had those Iraqi kids pose with a sign in English that said, ".. killed my father and knocked up my sister". So many people here believed it was faked... It was just the warm up for the brutality these Iraqi families are suffering. If this was happening to american citizens, Bush would nuke the entire country.

[saigon68]

37. Yes I remember that one

LCPL someone killed my father.

[daleo]

41. I thought of that too, when this came out

What has surprised me a bit, is that no lunatics have tried to claim that the photos at the prison were photo-shopped.

The way the pictures look to me, it seems institutional, not like somebody sneaking around the backs of commanding officers, or losing it in a moment of stress. There is plenty more to this story waiting to come out.

[Redleg]

42. I call bullshit on that.

Every soldier at some point in time learns that it is not okay to buttfuck EPWs (Enemy Prisoners of War). These folks are MPs so they should damn well know about it.

[riverwalker]

44. beam me up Scotty

What's next? Do we also need "in-depth training on international covenants" to not run over old ladies, boil puppies, whip babies, or napalm a kindergarden? Isn't this basic stuff? We need "International covenants" to guide us on how to be human? There was a hint of this after 9/11 when everyone was a "hero" for just doing what humans do all over the world. An earthquake or disaster anywhere, any village in the world, and people dig their neighbors out, bury the dead, comfort the living. ALL people do that. We were running around like it was so "uniquely" 'merikin to be so noble. Crap. It's not 'merikin, it's common everday humanity. Time for us to join the human race before they kick us out.

[koopie57]

46. this is truely a new world we live in

we have to pointedly teach people what is humane, what is indecent, what is cruel. That no matter what color or creed one is, they hurt, feel shame, bleed, get scared. Of all the things I've seen in the last year, this is the most troubling. The hardness and cruelty of man.

[NashVegas]

47. I DO Feel Sorrow for Those Responsible

They have lost a good chunk of their humanity, and that is a tragedy.

[saigon68]

49. Its sad but I wonder

If some of them had any or even a little to lose. They look too happy in the photos

[Solly Mack]

51. That's a lie

Reservists attend Basic and AIT. The Law of Land Warfare is taught at Basic..and ALL MP's are well versed in both the Geneva Convention and the Hague by the end of AIT.

MP's train for EPW duty. EPW training is conducted ..said training incorporates the Geneva Convention.

For any MP to say otherwise is a bald-face lie.

Those animals knew exactly what they were doing and they knew it was wrong.

Both the MP NG's and Army Reservists train at this post-and they train using the exact same training grounds as regular army MP's. They train under many of the same instructors. They get the "refresher" course on EPW's BEFORE deployment. ..Said refresher course is in addition to their original training.

Are their superiors also guilty? You bet your sweet bippy they are..

Is what happened reflective of a larger problem with abuse at that prison? Yes, it was...

Are these soldiers war criminals? No doubt about it.

Do reasonably good people sometimes do bad things under duress and harsh environs, to include war? Sure...but enough don't behave this way to question the motives and stability of those who do..(they were prone to this type of behavior prior to reaching Iraq)


Do I blame Bush/Cheney as well? Oh, hell, yes!

My husband, an MP, turned in Marines as well as some of his own soldiers for abuse and war crimes while he was serving in Iraq. For his efforts he was repeatedly attacked by his superiors-in the manner only a superior can attack. He survived the war and the personal attacks...and he did so without losing his humanity.


Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Ivan "Chip" Frederick, you are a liar. You are attempting to climb onto the shoulders of those drowning with you in order to save yourself.

You have the "If I go down, everyone is going down with me" attitude...and you are doing this only as a means to absolve yourself of your own cruel and inhumane crimes. You disgust me.

[saigon68]

52. Thank you ---that's one hell of a Post

Smiles and claps hands in admiration!!!

[Solly Mack]

54. Hi saigon68. I am beyond outrage

and just so bone deep sad...

[Bandit]

58. You are exactly right ~ You must attend and pass a "Code of Conduct"

Course before graduating from basic training. It is then again reinforced in AIT and so noted on everyone's DD-214 form. All you ex-GIs need to do is look on your DD-214 form and see what courses you received and passed and I will bet a dollor to a doughnut that the "Code Of Conduct" course is on there.

[teryang]

55. On deployments to the field, I noticed...

...(during exercises) that there was a greater inclination for some soldiers to start acting like animals. It would happen in the barracks too from time to time, but not as frequently as when deployed. It comes from the sense that no one is watching, an absence of the exercise of authority. As soon as this occurs, a certain amount of people start to act like a mob, seemingly inexplictly following whatever violence, lust or perversion comes to mind. That's exactly why an organized armed force in contrast to a mob is supposed to have good order and discipline. I used to see cases where soldiers were beaten, stabbed, buttfucked, sometimes even by officers.

I can't help but think that the propaganda not submitting American forces to international tribunals should they be guilty of war crimes sent the wrong signal. A high ranking veteran officer (of Vietnam and Iraq I) told me what good is a geneva convention, when you're at war your not in Geneva, ha, ha. (This was his briefing upon arrival in Vietnam.) I didn't appreciate the humor.

To hear that attitude from a senior officer made me sick. But its not uncommon. For those without a decent grounding in human values, once you live in that superordinate subordinate pecking order for a time, the pecking order itself is confused as being the end all and be all and the law is regarded as some superflous and meaningless abstraction for ivory tower "pussies" who don't live in the real world.

[rman]

56. Implies complicity of higher command,

not innocence of the accused.

The accused should have know it is not ok to humiliate and torture prisoners, it's just a matter of common decency.

Higher command should have properly instructed the prison guards. The fact that they did not is a grave error on their part.

[mouse7]

59. Life no parole for those who aid investigation...Hang the rest.

For everyone from private to general to civilian contractor. If they provide testimony in the investigation, their lives will be spared. Hang everyone else in the entire command structure.

[Shopaholic]

62. Ignorance is no excuse. . .

Surely they knew enough to know that what they were doing was torture?????