Families of accused soldiers blame civilians

[JoFerret]

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-liguard0501,0,204926.story?coll=ny-worldhomepage-headlines

The families of military police officers facing court-martials for the alleged torture and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners said Friday that the soldiers were subordinates to civilian interrogators who behaved like Saddam Hussein's henchmen.

....
William Lawson, the uncle of Army Reserves Staff Sgt. Ivan "Chip" Frederick, said specialists from private firms tutored his nephew in methods of abuse.

"They did give them instructions on certain things to do, and how to do it," Lawson said Friday in a telephone interview from Newburg, W.Va. "They are trying to pitch this story as five renegade GIs."

An Army Reserve official who spoke Friday on the condition of anonymity responded angrily to the claims of lesser responsibility by soldiers, in light of photos of abused Iraqis that were taken by the military police officers.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

[FreakinDJ]

1. I posted some thing about this too

He was being encouraged and instructed to do this. There are more in the Black Ops gang that need to answer for this.

[progressivebydesign]

25. I don't think it exonerates them at all...

.. but I do think they were trained and coached in particular ways to specifically humiliate the Iraqis. One guy talked about how easy it was to "break" them. The fact that these assholes posed for photos... tells you that it was not part of any training. It's just cruelty and inhumanity. They belong in prison for decades for this. Makes you really understand that the complaints we've heard from Gitmo are very very real. The British citizen who got out detailed very similar conditions there. Also, I think James Yee, the muslim Army Chaplain, was charged, arrested, then muzzled because he probably complained about the treatment at Gitmo.

[saigon68]

37. YIKES

[saigon68]

49. WAR CRIMINAL LYNNDIE ENGLAND "HE'S GETTING HARD"

At the Article 32 Hearing (like a grand jury hearing) Specialist Matthew Wisdom, an M.P under oath stated

Wisdom said:
SFC Snider grabbed my prisoner and threw him into a pile. . . . I do not think it was right
to put them in a pile. I saw SSG Frederic, SGT Davis and CPL Graner walking around the
pile hitting the prisoners. I remember SSG Frederick hitting one prisoner in the side of its
ribcage. The prisoner was no danger to SSG Frederick. . . . I left after that.
When he returned later, Wisdom testified:
I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open. I
thought I should just get out of there. I didn’t think it was right . . . I saw SSG Frederick
walking towards me, and he said, ““Look what these animals do when you leave them
alone for two seconds.”” I heard PFC England shout out, ““He’’s getting hard"


http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact



[Ms. Clio]

64. Using the word "it" to refer to the prisoners

Somehow bothers me almost as much as those frightful photos.

[MaineDem]

67. That jumped right out at me, too.

This whole thing is utterly disgusting!

[Ms. Clio]

42. Yes, I remember at least 1 Gitmo detainee said he was sexually humiliated

and abused, and by a woman, and all the naysayers screeched that such things could never, ever happen in an American concentration camp!

[drfemoe]

60. In this situation

whoosh* has said, "we don't do that in America". He DID NOT say, we don't DO THAT!!

[Ms. Clio]

63. And probably smirked at his own "cleverness" when he said it n/t

[saigon68]

72. WE DO DO THAT IN AMERIKA

Lynching 1930

A mob of 10,000 whites took sledgehammers to the county jailhouse doors to get at these two young blacks accused of raping a white girl; the girl’s uncle saved the life of a third by proclaiming the man’s innocence. Although this was Marion, Ind., most of the nearly 5,000 lynchings documented between Reconstruction and the late 1960s were perpetrated in the South. (Hangings, beatings and mutilations were called the sentence of “Judge Lynch.”) Some lynching photos were made into postcards designed to boost white supremacy, but the tortured bodies and grotesquely happy crowds ended up revolting as many as they scared. Today the images remind us that we have not come as far from barbarity as we’d like to think.


Look at their faces. Lynndie England's spirit was alive and well in this picture.

[Ms. Clio]

73. Yes, that is a horrible but very appropriate picture

It is a little-known fact that women often participated in mass mob, "spectacle" lynchings. They watched, they urged on the men, they cheered, they mocked the victim's sufferings. Sometimes a woman lit the fire.


http://www.musarium.com/withoutsanctuary/main.html

[Streetdoc270]

50. you do not have to follow any order that is illegal or immoral

and if you do have to by military law, you should know better and disobey on moral grounds.

[w4rma]

69. I am in full agreement with you FreakinDJ. Also, I think the civilians

/mercs need to be outed and they need to bear some some punishment, also. And then the folks who hired these mercs to instruct these soldiers need to be investigated. And the folks who manage them. etc.

The lowest folks on the totem pole always get punished. But, it is extremely important not to forget about the folks sitting on top of the totem pole, imho, if we are truly interested in not allowing this to happen again.

[brokensymmetry]

2. Interesting point.

I wonder who really has control and (not the same thing!) responsibility for the contractors' actions?

[riverwalker]

3. demand Rumsfeld's resignation

It was Rumsfeld who advocated the use of these "contractors". Write everyone and demand he resign.

[bloom]

8. I agree Rumsfeld (and Bush*) are responsible

for putting such a sysytem in place. (As well as the "civilians" and those directly connected).


<snip>
"William Lawson, the uncle of Army Reserves Staff Sgt. Ivan "Chip" Frederick, said specialists from private firms tutored his nephew in methods of abuse.

"They did give them instructions on certain things to do, and how to do it," Lawson said Friday in a telephone interview from Newburg, W.Va. "They are trying to pitch this story as five renegade GIs."
<snip>

[saigon68]

4. THE COVER UP BEGINS

DISGUSTING

[alcuno]

5. civilian interrogators?

Like contractors? Not CIA?

[soup]

18. yep. Now Hiring in Afghanistan, too.

I posted this earlier in another thread:

March-April 2004 International & Metro DC Edition - Defense Systems and Intelligence Careers- page 25

80871 - Interrogators - Afghanistan
CACI, International - Kandahar, Afghanistan
Clearance: Clearance Required
Description: Conducts interrogations of detainees. When not employed as interrogators
and producing reports, individuals will assist in the HUMINT reporting system
maintenance to include Brigade Black/White/Gray list, support screening operations
and conducts analysis or liaison to support interrogation operations. All actions will be
managed by the Senior CI Agent. Individuals must be trained interrogators with at least 5
years of experience in interrogation.
www.intelligencecareers.com/magazine/ edition-international/dsic_pg25.pdf

note: sorry about the link, can't seem to get it to transfer.
It's the top link on this Google search page
http://www.google.com/search?q=afghanistan+caci%2C+inc&hl=en&lr=&ie=UT...

[IndianaGreen]

38. Contractors

like the ones that were killed and their bodies dragged through the streets of Fallujah by an angry mob.

Tinoire has posted the background of the companies that hire these mercenaries, including the Titan corporation.

[JoFerret]

43. Exactly

.

[annagull]

6. Once again, the mercinaries pop up in this story

I don't believe the MPs were "forced" to do this to the prisoners, from the pictures you can tell they are having a great time. But I am glad the press is looking into the mercinary aspect of this story, which I think is a larger story in general about their involvement in this war.

[PartyPooper]

7. These families can visit their kin after they're convicted and locked up.

I have absolutely NO sympathy for any of them, whatsoever.

Maybe, they'll have adjoining cells with Junior, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et. al.! They're all war criminals!

:grr:

[Direckshun]

9. ...and the plot thickens. (n/t)

[baldguy]

10. These soldiers aren't going to get court-martialed.

They'll all take a plea, spend some jail time, and the whole thing will be buried.

The facts will never see the light of day.

[arcane1]

11. mercenaries, "security", and now goddamned CORPORATE TORTURERS?????

I am speechless....

[markses]

14. Corporate Torturers: You give us 2 hours, we'll give you the confession

Needless to say, they forget that part about the tortured statement being, ahhh, suspect.

[Occulus]

33. corporate torture:

the Fineal Extreme of corporate personhood.

Corporations should have no rights. Of any kind.

[WildClarySage]

12. Uh... yeah...

"Lawson, a Vietnam veteran, acknowledged that stacking nude Iraqis in a human pyramid, and forcing them into sexual positions, were actions carried out by the soldiers. But they were part of interrogation preparations ordered by the civilians, he said."

These same civilians also ordered the soldiers to pose with their thumbs up, smiling, for photographs?

I don't fucking think so.

[LiberalFighter]

39. Since when do civilians give military orders to our troops?

[lanlady]

47. that's what I'd like to know, too

Since when does the mighty US Army take its orders from CACI?

[markses]

13. Private contractors not subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice

And, since there seems to be no law at all in Iraq, they are not subject to any code at all, ahem, sir. And they are out there interrogating prisoners, under no possible oversight and no relevant law! Coercing statements from human beings without any law other than "effectiveness" to account for their behavior?

There really is no need to argue against this. It violates everything that we have considered national values for the last two centuries. It is noxious, and cannot be justified by any party or political group in these United States. It is flat-out wrong, and everybody knows it.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

36. WRONG! Don't fall for that LIE!

And, since there seems to be no law at all in Iraq, they are not subject to any code at all, ahem, sir. And they are out there interrogating prisoners, under no possible oversight and no relevant law! Coercing statements from human beings without any law other than "effectiveness" to account for their behavior?

Dont fall for that lie - that is what they WANT you to believe. Here, however, is the TRUTH:

Art. 75. Fundamental guarantees

1. In so far as they are affected by a situation referred to in Article 1 of this Protocol, persons who are in the power of a Party to the conflict and who do not benefit from more favourable treatment under the Conventions or under this Protocol shall be treated humanely in all circumstances and shall enjoy, as a minimum, the protection provided by this Article without any adverse distinction based upon race, colour, sex, language, religion or belief, political or other opinion, national or social origin, wealth, birth or other status, or on any other similar criteria. Each Party shall respect the person, honour, convictions and religious practices of all such persons.

2. The following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever, whether committed by civilian or by military agents: (a) violence to the life, health, or physical or mental well-being of persons, in particular: (i) murder; (ii) torture of all kinds, whether physical or mental; (iii) corporal punishment; and (iv) mutilation;

(b) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, enforced prostitution and any form of indecent assault; (c) the taking of hostages; (d) collective punishments; and (e) threats to commit any of the foregoing acts.
http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/geneva/protocol1.html#75

Put the bolded sentences together and you get the TRUTH:

"The following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever, whether committed by civilian or by military agents: torture of all kinds, whether physical or mental and any form of indecent assault".

Those "civillian" contractors are war criminals, and if the US military doesn't arrest them and charge them with their crimes, then it will be commiting yet another war crime - failing to enforce the Geneva Conventions.

[Just Me]

48. I could be wrong but I am certain exemptions from laws were obtained

by the administration. Although I do not have the long list of actions taken by the administration to exempt themselves and their crony corporations, I recall concluding that the administration essentially did as it has done from the get go,...create a hole of lawlessness. Gitmo is an outstanding example where the administration claims that neither US or international law applies due to circumstances "unique" to those laws. Moreover, the administration simply renames people/prisoners/situations in order to avoid application of law in addition to simply unilaterally exempting application of law.

[bpilgrim]

15. sounds JUST like the bush CORPORATE doctrine to me

the RED CROSS/UN somebody needs to ensure that our guards are not only TRAINED in adhering to, at a minimum, the standards set foth in the GC, sheesh... then they must ENSURE that those standards are being met.

this really adds up, to me, to just another SYMPTOM of the evil course this misadministration has charted for our nation.

we MUST change course!

WHERE THEY TRAINED? do we got any of 'our' soilders over there?

peace

[The Magistrate]

31. It Is An Extraordinary Thing, Sir

That interrogations are being contracted out to private persons, answerable to no law whatever for their actions. That is something unique in the modern world, to my knowledge, anyway.

It cannot be condemned too strongly: it is a formula for abuse and atrocity, and contrary to every principle this country was founded upon.

[seventhson]

16. I KNEW IT!!!; It was Cheney's Private Contractor Mercenaries Doing this

This explains a lot and the kid charged was trying to STOP it and gets targeted by Bush!

Assholes all

[Philosophy]

17. My company subcontracts for CACI

They suck.

[boobooday]

19. THUGS! THEY ARE THUGS!!!!!

Oh my god. And they are LEADING OUR TROOPS?

The troops said they had never seen the Geneva convention until after they were charged.

And Bush has the nerve to call the Iraqis fighting for their home THUGS. It is like hiring the bull to clean the China shop.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[Career Prole]

20. I brought this same fact up

here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1505086&mesg_id=1505287

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but all the Army ever did was fire contractors who were abusive of prisoners, and this crap had been going on since at least November.
In Riverbend's blog Baghdad Burning (link at my other post) she mentions that they (Iraqis) had heard about the abuse quite a while ago from released prisoners and that information was out on the streets long before the pictures were on 60 Minutes.
What I'm thinking, suspicious me, is that some CACI or Titan contractors from the prison were canned for abuse and subsequently hired by Blackwater...see where I'm going with this?
I think the four who got torched and hung from the bridge could have been involved with this somehow. Why else were they given such brutal treatment otherwise? No one else is getting mutilated like that.

[jimshoes]

29. Makes perfect sense to me

No one does that kind of thing to another human unless outraged beyond comprehension. Someone (or more) had reached that point with these 4.

[LiberalFighter]

40. Gee do you think the Iraqis were scouting to see where those...

contractors were stationed?

[Career Prole]

59. It wouldn't have taken any scouting.

The insurgency's got local intelligence sources equal to and sometimes better than the coalition's. The coalition knew it months ago. Coordinated ambushes aren't serendipitous events...by definition they require advanced planning.
The coalition formed an Iraqi police force and an Iraqi "army" with what they felt were pre-screened pro-coalition Iraqis and still got infiltrated by some anti-coalition agents. As the occupation drags on, more and more formerly pro-coalition Iraqis in positions of trust will become anti-occupation Iraqis. This will make the insurgency's intel even better, and the attacks better coordinated. I don't even consider that an intuitive leap. It's more like an intuitive slide-step to the next square on the game-board.

Edited for the punctuation I forgot.:)

[MSgt213]

21. That's not going to save them. They would have been better off taking a

court-martial over refusing to go along with this crap instead of waiting until pictures of them smiling and seeming happy to be in on it.

[saigon68]

32. I AGREE SARGE THEY LOOKED WAY TOO HAPPY

Especially Lynndie England

[ninkasi]

22. Those involved

are quick to point the finger of blame, and damned slow to accept any responsibility. We are becoming what we have always fought against. And we claim the moral high-ground? I don't think so.

[Mikimouse]

23. No double standard there, nope!...

No, no mein herr counsellor, I did not do these things voluntarily, but was ordered to do zem by my superiors, zo I am innocent. Sound familiar?

[fishnfla]

27. well no, its not the same

If these civilians are giving our troops orders and instruction, its different.How did the outside agencies subvert the military chain of command? Why are ONLY the soldiers and officers being punished? how come the civilian "contracters' ( i hate that word) get a pass?

My point is, this is not the same "I was just following orders" defense. The officers subverted their duty by allowing civilian influence upon their enlistment. There are different agents of criminal behavior,IMO

My guess is that corporation is going to end up getting sued, by the victims,for sure.

[Mikimouse]

34. The principle is the same...

hiding behind someone else's skirt and passing the buck.

[fishnfla]

45. I'm afraid you got it backwards

Passing the buck how? Who is hiding behind whom?

The soldiers and the officers are the ones being disciplined,as well they should,but the contractors who were there are walking away scot free while the US Military takes the entire blame. It is they who are passing the buck and staying hidden. So far all we know is unnamed employees(note: still employed) of caci have been "questioned". Everyone who was involved in this horrific act should be punished!!

My guess is those civilian employees are still on the job. probably got a raise and getting lawyered up big time.

[Mikimouse]

55. Let's not misunderstand each other...

I am of one mind with you as far as the notion of punishing everyone associated with these acts. However, I would argue that the skirt that the military personnel are hiding behind is a virtual one related to their argument that they were told what to do by 'unnamed and nidentified' sources. I agree that the 'civilian' employees are probably still running around loose, probably will never be brought to justice, but that does not excuse the actionso fthe MPs either. As far as passing the buck is concerned, I feel that that is exactly what they are doing by arguing that they were told what to do, and had no choice but to do it.

[LiberalFighter]

41. And if these contractors are former military then...

they should also lose their pension.

[chookie]

24. Lawson has been coached since yesterday

His story has "evolved" quite a bit from the Baltimore story he was quoted in yesterday.

Frederick's lawyer came up with this one.

I will say it seems to have an element of truth, but is not consistent with his initial reaction.

Yeah, maybe so, but the MPs in those photos look like Team Leaders to me.

Key: who were the photos intended for? I suspect they took them to send to friends stateside, to share a giggle -- and some how the images started getting circulated, and finally came before the eyes of someone with at least a shred of moral fiber. The uncle said yesterday that they took the photos to scare other prisoners with. Nonsense. What we see in the photos is their glee in pure depravity, of the thrill of power and subjugation that George W Bush himself projects.

[bloom]

26. That is how I interpreted a lot of this

"Frederick's lawyer... said blah, blah, blah..."

[Tellurian]

28. Cheny/Bush any difference?

List of Defense Contractors and HUGE Corporate Donors to the Bush campaign.

Take a look at the biggest Pentagon players, who they are and how much they received in taxpayer dollars.

The top 100 corporations, or as CDI, in appropriate military parlance calls it, FY2001 TOP 100 CONTRACTORS RECEIVING CONTRACT AWARDS, are:

note: The firm of CACI International of Arlington, Va. mentioned in Jo Ferret's article.

An astounding and informative piece. The result of curious surfing.

link

[Zomby Woof]

30. ah yes

Doubtless all Repukes, the party of "personal responsibility". :puke:

[bill grasso]

35. US Army has always practiced torture..

Don't believe the moralistic hype.. armies have always tortured prisoners when they think they won't be seen.. Rare is the commander who can control the uncivilized urges of his combat-stressed troops but abundant are the ones who will cover it up.. The Geneva Convention training *ALL* military personnel receive in boot camp is just your basic corporate ass covering for liability avoidance. I seem to remember carrying a card on my person during my military tenure (the early to mid '70's) describing the articles of the Geneva Convention in detail. I also recall numerous training films in which common soldiers were portrayed as standing up to illegal orders from superiors.. "..That's a war crime, sir!!.." Maybe these MP's were absent that day..

I still have clear memories of training in binding prisoners (as cruelly as possible to cause maximum discomfort, but don't let a gagged prisoner choke to death!), the use of field telephones to administer electric shocks to genitals, beating them when they "attempt to escape", prisoners "accidentally" falling out of aircraft (so the ones left on board will decide to talk), etc.. and no end to the dumbasses willing to do it..

[Mountainman]

44. I worked for Titan Corp for a while

It was one of the worst places I have ever worked human relations wise,

They use to by a home computer for you so that you could improve computer skills and take the payments out of your check. Then they would fire you and you either had to pay the remaining balance in a lump sum or give them the computer. They got a lot of computers cheaply that way. I saw people literally crying at their desks and no one cared. One woman who was fired was cleaning out her office with her supervisor standing in the doorway. The woman was a single mom and her little girl about two years old was with her. The woman was crying, the kid was crying and the supervisor just stood there watching to make sure the woman didn't take something that was company property.

It was a defense contractor and I was an accounting manager. My boss was a Chinese woman who was one of the meanest women I have ever seen. She was cold and calculating. She use to keep me there with her on Fridays after everyone else had left and I was making spreadsheets for her. I'd prepare one, she would take it back to her desk, make changes while I waited then I would have to do it all over with the changes then she took it away and make more changes. She was trying to make the costs of the government contracts come out in the best light. She was moving costs around among the various contracts. The let me go but gave me a good recommendation and I was very happy to get out of there.

[drfemoe]

58. I worked for a company

that bid government contracts; federal, local and state. They routinely contracted for services they knew they could never provide. Once the equipment was installed, the legal team would sort out the unfulfilled obligations. Evidently, this is NOT illegal. I was appalled.

[lojasmo]

46. Neurenburg "strips" the GIs of protection

from illegal acts, even if ordered by actual superiors. I would think civilian contractors orders would offer NO protection at all.

[warrior1]

51. Aren't these repukes

suppose to take responsibly for their actions. Or does this only apply to Democrats?

[w4rma]

70. I frankly don't care about Neurenburg if you (plural) allow it to protect

these contractors/mercenaries and the people that hire and manage them and the folks who manage them, etc, etc. all the way up the totem pole.

[Insider]

52. contractors said "smile for the camera"?

and take pictures too? how exactly did the photos (that prisoners cannot see, will never see) help to intimidate the prisoners?

lamest

[saigon68]

53. THESE "contractors" ARE BEASTS AND WAR CRIMINALS

They have anti-social personality disorders

[goclark]

54. LIHOP

This is just another indication of the philosophy of this THUG administration,they just LIHOP. They knew this was going to be the result. They knew they were not winning the war so they LIHOP.

It has Rumfeld etc. written all over it!

String them all up now, let the impeachment begin.
If this had happened on Clinton's watch, Clinton , Hilliary and all democrats would be hung.

[newyorican]

56. The era of "personal responsibility"...

is over.

[bobthedrummer]

57. They did mention spooks killing prisoners.

Mercenaries, pictures on porno websites, all this and a lot more have been covered up by that broadest of brushes, national security.

Well, no more using national security to protect organized crime/mercenaries, like the intelligence failure (LIHOP) national security is corrupt at its core imho and life experience as an American.

[Tellurian]

61. The WH is to Blame. They hired the contractors! nt

[drfemoe]

62. Titan and Lockheed . Stockholder message

Vote NO on Merger, here are my reasons
by: rivervalleyfox 04/27/04 09:35 am
Msg: 101294 of 101328

VOTE NO ON MERGER... Here are my reasons for
voting no.

Titan is now profitable and has significant sales and significant backlog of orders. . They are further reducing expenses, and they are a clearly established succcessful contractor in an important area of our nation's defense.

Our defense against radical Islamic attacks and other radicals, will not cease any time soon.

The destruction and death spread across the world by fundamentalist Islam, against "infidels", (both non muslims and muslims who do not belive as they do ) will continue to be a war which will go on for years and one which most of expect will only get worse in its attacks. Our defense needs the INDEPENDENT innovative talent of an independent Titan to protect us.

Also,
We have seen Titan stock well above $40 a share, ( or was it above $ 50 a share? ), in the past...it is not unreasonable to believe that in a year from now, after we defeat this merger, that Titan stock will be worth more than Lockheed's $ 20 a share offer.

Preventing this merger is better for our nation and is also probably better for us as investors.
<snipped>
http://finance.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?.mm=FN&action=m&board=4687076&tid=ttn&sid=4687076&mid=101294

[Ravy]

65. The civillian contractors should be handed over to the Iraqis...

and tried in their courts, along with Saddam.

[0007]

66. Remember those polls and debates a few years back?

Who was asking us if we thought torture was necessary? Who was it that was taking our temperature?

[Tommy]

68. facts

american soldiers know not to do this, all of them. those that do are a shame to the army. think ft Leavenworth.

[FlemingsGhost]

71. Families of accused soldiers are in deep denial

Face it mom and dad, your little "heroes" are war criminals.

To some extent, their actions are a reflection of their moral upbringing. Want someone to blame? Look in the mirror.