Bush Focusing on Faith-Based Initiatives

[maddezmom]

WASHINGTON - President Bush (news - web sites) is renewing his push in favor of faith-based initiatives, promoting the goal of letting religious groups compete for government money to help the needy.



Launched in the earliest days of his administration and stalled in Congress, the president's plans for religious-based organizations are the focus of a national White House conference of community leaders Tuesday.


Opponents of the effort worry that government would wind up paying for religion. They also object to allowing taxpayer-funded groups to hire and fire based on religious persuasion.


Thwarted by Congress, the president has sidestepped lawmakers with executive orders and regulations to give religious organizations equal footing in competing for federal contracts. He is still fighting for legislation that would give religious groups access to federal funds as long as their services are available to anyone.

~snip~
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=703&e=1&u=/ap/20040601/ap_on_el_pr/bush_faith_based

[FlashHarry]

1. Will non-judeo/christan groups get any dough?

Call me a cynic, but I doubt it.

[bleedingedge]

5. Actually, I'll call you a realist

The recent "Frontline" re: Bush's religious views covered this. I may have my facts and figures a little skewed, but the gist is correct. I'm sure somebody else around here will be able to get the ducks perfectly in a row, but here's what I remember:

Only one government agency has publicized the secular grants it has provided due to the Bush initiatives. I think it was the Dept of Ag. or something like that.

NOT ONE non-Christian group (i.e. Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.) has received a single penny from the initiatives. I think the number of grants (given by this one department, keep in mind) was in the mid-100's, all to Christian organizations.

Nothing to see here, people. Move along.

[salin]

32. I thought I read an item last month that answered this question

and I think that only Christian entities (and Moon's group which is somehow called Christian - even though he claims that Christ failed and that he, Rev Moon, is the Messaih) have received money so far. Can't recall where I read that - so I wouldn't state that as fact.

[Malva Zebrina]

2. I am against this initiative with every fiber of my being

I am an atheist so my reasoning is pretty straightforward re separation of church and state. I cannot understand why any church/religion would want the government to mete out money to them, thereby putting themselves under the thumb of government. The state then runs the religion and holds over that religion the threat of removal of funds for whatever reason and the laying down of rules and laws by the state on what the religion can or cannot do. Further, churches are tax exempt now, and we the tax payer are left to -pick up the slack here--and now we are going to have to support a religion (s) that try to interfere in our voting process,practices bigotry, tries to interfere with the lives of women in a fit of misgyny for which they are famous, and is full of huge stone, spired cathedrals that are three stories high and falling apart because it has been and is too expensive to maintain them.

Another thing that enters my mind--a reflective person professing religion and love for fellow human beings as the primary locus of that religion has to sit back and wonder if, in a democracy,with a constitution such as ours, pushing for this money is the right thing to do. Or do they resort to pragmatism as the means to rationalize.

[MaineDem]

3. I am not an atheist but I agree with you wholeheartedly

My religion is private. I don't prefess faith publicly and I don't want faith forced on me in any way.

I firmly believe that there is a separation of church and state for a very good reason. I can't express my revulsion over this idea strongly enough. And certainly not as eloquently as you.

I have a button I picked up at the state convention two years ago. It says "I support a faith-based missle system". Not everyone gets it. ;)

[Judi Lynn]

6. Do you think orders have come down to have a moment of silence

or prayer, for the pompously "religious" ones, before launching a new session of "mistreatment" for the "detainees?"

It could only sanctify the experience.

[Not Me]

12. I am too,

because I just feel it is just not right to funnel government money into the hands of those who have a religious agenda. It is not only breaking down the wall of separation of church and state (which churches get the money, vs which do not,) but also I think these are ventures which people should see their government providing; it fosters a "We're all in this together" belief.

And, of course, keeping it in the government's hands assures accountability.

[maddezmom]

4. this idea disgusts me as well, and I consider myself a christian

or spiritual...whatever that means, but the gov't has no place in religion. Personally, I don't feel bush* gives 2 craps about "faith-based" initiatives, he is shoring up his base. And to me it's outrageous that he has used special executive powers to get around the law.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

8. Laws mean nothing...

To these chuckleheads. Nothing but impediments to go over, under, around and through.

Having said that, remember these situations are like pendulums and the nature of pendulums is to swing.

[sweetness]

10. Which laws

are you talking about?

the pendulums swing will decay moving from more extreme to less extreme eventually finding the center......

[AndyTiedye]

52. There is Something Badly Wrong with the Pendulum Lately

[sweetness]

7. Strong feelings

can cloud judgment. I also felt the way that you do but after following this issue and listening to many sides of the debate I have come to a more even approach. I have come to believe it would be foolish to discount efforts by the government to help people in need.

I disagree with the idea that faith based organizations should be allowed to discriminate and or deny aid to those who are not of the "right" faith.

The fact of the matter is that there will be success for some and failure for others, I have come to the conclusion that the majority of the faith based programs I have seen in my community are not only successful but they fill the gaps between what people can do for themselves and what government can do for the people. I shudder to think what our communities would be like without faith based social organizations.

My compassion outweighs any reservations about the general concept of tax support of faith based programs.

I work with various faith based social needs institutions and find the experience to be quite fulfilling.

[Bridget Burke]

13. Are you a volunteer--or do you stand to profit?

"I work with various faith based social needs institutions and find the experience to be quite fulfilling." Some specific details would be quite helpful.

There's lots of good work being done by many faith-based groups; it's a very old tradition. But they can continue without my tax money. We also need secular "help"--but government programs are being underfunded. Why should money be taken from them to be distributed to religious programs?

Many religious people do not want direct government support because they don't want to be influenced by the government. They support separation between church & state.

[sweetness]

17. Volunteer

I make no profit nor do the organizations I work for. I work with faith based social justice groups calling for fair economic participation both locally and abroad. These programs would be considered by many to be quite liberal. I also work with an organization that provided affordable housing this organization is very faith based. I have worked and my family volunteers time and donations to faith based food kitchens and pantries.

As for underfunding of government programs this is true but it is also true that the government programs miss many people or they are not mandated for the type of care they need to give.

The notion that these faith based programs are wholly in it for the purpose of spreading their form of religion is not founded in the reality of the situation. If anything these religious institutions represent what good religious organizations can do.

There is a strong sentiment from both ends of the spectrum regarding tax dollars and faith based social programs.

The debate should not ignore the fact that these programs serve useful purpose in our communities.

[Malva Zebrina]

31. well that is how the breakdown of a Constitution starts

by people wanting government welfare to continue their religious work.

and, another aspect is that by receiving government welfare to preach their religion, they free up money to fund their global missions.
\
and there is NO oversight so far to the churches who have benefitted so far from Bush's executive decisions to hand out our money to persons like Pat Robertson who was given, I think it is, $500,000 for his charities.

This is not what the founders of this country had in mind when they deliberately left "god" out of the Consitution.


Government programs for the poor, like public education, have been systematically programmed to fail over time, so that political desires could be fulfilled by a person like George Bush seeking to use other people's money, not his rich buddies money, for sure, which is parked in some Cayman island, to spread the Christian religion.

There has been already, a removal of funding from one program I know, that is secular and that has been successful for years . Under the excuse that it failed to fill out the paper work properly, funding was denied by the Bush administration.

One well meaning person who may have changed his mind about this initiative is Robert DiLulio--who was orginally in charge of this.

Many people suspect, with good reason, it will be the Christian religion that will get the most money from this if Bush has his way. And, indirectly, it will lead to the same type of scorn we see aimed at
George Bush by brave people not afraid to point out that a religion or a church can be just as shallow and just as greedy as anything else that wants free money from people no matter how much "good" they claim to do.

[tandot]

16. The biggest church in my town just spend $25 Million to build

a worship center.

How much good could they have done with that money??? Instead of helping the needy, they built a temple. Bullsh*t!

I do NOT want any of MY hard-earned money to go financing those hypocrites. If they have this much money to build temples, they better not receive any of my money.

[sweetness]

20. Do they spend

their money on anything else besides themselves? All to often anti religious types use the lavishness of some religious institutions as a argument against them all. These people are very extreme in their viewpoints and fail to see the good side of religion.

[tandot]

28. They are also spending money in staging Harry Potter boycotts

and trying to get "Heather has two mommies" out of the public library.

Their new worship center will have room for 100,000 people in a city with a population of 120,000.

I don't know of any big involvement in charity. They have mission trips to convert heathens into obedient and reproducing disciples of Jesus Christ. Maybe that counts?

I think it is great that religious groups and organizations do charitable work. But I strictly oppose using any of MY tax money to sponsor any religion.

[progressivebydesign]

22. My town, also..

You should see that building! It's hundreds of thousands of square feet. Over 1000 people now go there, and it's like a city! Yet, the amount of actual charity work the church does is miniscule.. Most of their activities are preaching to the choir, and planning pizza parties and trips to Europe for the parishoners. There's a city nearby, Federal Way, Washington, in which some people want to build a 400,000 square foot Christian "church". You're right.. what would that kind of money and manpower do to an impoverished town in America??? I guess everyone's interpretation of Christianity is different.

[progressivebydesign]

21. Great... but not with my tax dollars..

I guess, "sweetness", that you're okay with the fact that the money ONLY goes to the Christians.. which are Bush's political henchmen now.

This is just wrong, wrong, wrong. The Congress, for once, got it right. This has creepy Rove written all over it.. got to pander to the Christian Right money before the election.

[sweetness]

23. I do not believe that you are

correct in your assumtion that the money goes only to christians. To state that all christians are bush's henchmen is absurd.

I would agree that there is a good deal of pandering done by all political parties and that the republicans have for some time courted the religious right wing.

[Just Me]

33. I've seen no evidence that any funding has been funneled to any

other than "Christian" organizations. Beyond the discriminatory nature of funding "faith based" operations which I do not disfavor for those who seek out such assistance, government funding of religious organizations, any religious organizations, is a dangerous risk to the ever-important separation of church and state. Just as the neocons inflicted a coup on our government, a religious organization could do the same and I am in total opposition to opening that door.

Taxpayer dollars should go strictly to secular humanitarian organizations,...and they are just as plentiful and effective as religious ones.

[WillParkinson]

30. A more 'even' approach?

I'm sorry. I fail to see how using my tax money (which can barely pay for the services that we NEED) being used to fund churches that want to increase their membership is a necessary thing?

I don't think that it's right that religious organizations should be allowed to get government money when they don't even pay taxes themselves.

[happyending]

9. I think I'll start a

Church of Satan Day Care Center.

When the Feds won't fund me, I will sue.
And win that lawsuit. ;)

[Just Me]

11. We are having trouble enough with fundamentalists using politics,...

,...to shove their "righteousness" down everybody's throats. They have been involved in a long-term campaign towards theocracy.

I have no quarrel with those who seek "faith based" assistance.

However, I am fully opposed to (secular) taxpayer funding. Absolutely NOT!!!! Fund secular organizations,...not religious ones.

[TahitiNut]

14. Everyone knows that government should only serve the rich and powerful.

Taxpayers exist in order to serve the entitlements of corporate Amerika. After all, they bought and paid for it, right? The sick, lame, and lazy are best left to charities.
</sarcasm>
(Where's Dickens?)

[tandot]

15. "pray for our president and leader" ... huge billboard

on one of our biggest churches.

This sh*t just makes me want to puke :puke:

Yesterday, I had a lady with two children knock on my door at 9:00 am. When I opened she was holding the Bible in my face. I didn't even say anything, just slammed the door shut.

I just about had it with that BS. I was raised catholic but taught that religion is a private matter and that there is more than one religion. Living in the Bible belt with all those Southern Baptist hypocrites just drives me crazy.

[progressivebydesign]

24. Yeah, why can't they instead live by that Bible passage...

'pray in private'. That was one of my faves... go into the closet. I'm tired of bumper sticker religion, door-to-door religion, religion in public schools, religion in politics. I read that when Bush "took" office, that things would spiral out of control in the separation of Church and State, because he had to pay back the big money from the Christian Right corporations... and they were right. Now, if those hideous "Left Behind" loons would just go away, we'd be in good shape. More political hacks masquerading as authors.. lots of that going around these days.

[TahitiNut]

27. Ron Popeil Xtians

There's Ronco and Jesusco, I guess. Clap on; clap off; pray on; pray off. :shrug:

[PurityOfEssence]

48. Isn't that amazing?

Do they have a pocket Jesus fisherman?

Fun post; thanks!

[Just Me]

35. "Bumper Sticker Religion SUCKS!!!"

I'd like to have a bumper sticker like that!!!!

:bounce:

[Just Me]

25. Yeah, me too. I just had a conversation with a young fundie,...

,...yesterday. She seeks to become a preacher and "save" people from the devil (that would be everyone who fails to adopt the notion that Jesus is the only son of God and only means of escaping hell). I asked her which was more important in her quest to save people: teaching them the vision Jesus sought to share with humanity or telling people they would go to hell if they failed to accept Jesus as God. She gave me a blank look. Then, I asked her if she knew Jesus' vision. She responded that his vision was, if you fail to believe that he is the path to heaven, you will burn in hell.

I encouraged her to go to college and study theology so that she could broaden her rhetoric enough to actually help rather than hurt people.

Ugh!!!

[salin]

47. That is a sad (but seems to be pervasively growing) view.

A very superficial selfish view of Christianity - rather appropriate for the "Me Generation" and its children. The only point of Christ's life and death, accordingly, is MY salvation. Nothing else matters. *sigh*

[Walt Starr]

18. This is good news

Bush is spending his tiem and efforts, not to mention news cycles, shoring up his base late in the game.

He's hurting for certain and Kerry continues to go after the middle. The middle wins the game. Bush is courting his far right idealogues instead of going after the middle.

He's toast.

[maddezmom]

19. PRESS RELEASE from WH

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/06/20040601-1.html

[drfemoe]

26. Is there no law?

"Thwarted by Congress, the president has sidestepped lawmakers with executive orders and regulations to give religious organizations equal footing in competing for federal contracts."

Is Congress going to wake up to this? They're just powerless, I suppose?
It'll end up in the courts at some point. Ho-Hum... sounds about par for bushleague. Pocket now, litigate later. The American Dream.

[trogdor]

42. Powerless is close...

...there isn't a clear enough majority either way to get much of anything of value done in Congress, not that we'd be any better off if Tom DeLay got his way 100% of the time.

[icymist]

29. This smells all of Pat Robertson wanting to get his hands on Federal...

tax money! Didn't Pat's father consider himself a mentor to Prescott Bush in the Senate?

[Malva Zebrina]

39. Pat's "Operation Blessing" has already been given

$500,000 of our money to propagate his religion. Does anyone know what he spent that on?

On edit

a couple of links about Robertson's Operation Blessing

http://christianity.about.com/library/weekly/aa021601.htm

http://christianity.about.com/library/weekly/aa100302.htm

[icymist]

46. Operation Blessing.

Supposed "to help alleviate the woes of refugees fleeing genocide in Rwanda." According to Greg Palast's book The Best Democracy Money Can Buy (page 240) "Operation Blessing purchased planes to shuttle medical supplies in and out of the refugee camp in Goma, Congo (then Zaire). However, investigative reporter Bill Sizemore of the Virginian-Pilot discovered that, except for one medical flight, the planes were used to haul heavy equipment for something called the African Development Corporation, a diamond-mining operation distant from Goma. African Development is owned by Pat Robertson." (Greg Palast, 'The Best Democracy Money Can Buy' Published by Plume, a member of Penguin Putnam Inc., 2002)

[Claire Beth]

34. He wants to keep his base motivated....

and suck up to Jerry Falwell et al.

[MallRat]

36. I don't get it... why is Bush going even further to the right?

What am I missing here? Why would Bush choose NOW to start pushing again for federal funding of faith-based organizations, when he needs to be doing everything he can to court the moderate undecided voter?

Does Rove think that for every moderate he'll lose, Bush will gain two fundamentalist Christians who wouldn't have bothered voting before? I thought that the religious right vote was pretty well maxxed out.

It bothers me... on the surface, it looks like a bonehead move. But there's always a method to their madness. What is it?

-MR

[Malva Zebrina]

38. Because if certain religious leaders tell their congregations

NOT to vote for Kerry,as they have, Bush is gambling that they will tell their congregations to vote for him and they will get on the welfare roles and so they can fix their schools, and the spires on their cathedrals as well as send more of the faithful to missions to "help" the pagans convert.

[Claire Beth]

50. yup, that's it alright!

[rumguy]

37. Bush can take his faith-based initiatives and shove them up his rear

Bush is not a Christian. He does not represesent Christian values. The fact that this human monster even talks about faith is an abomination.

[Just Me]

40. I totally agree. Bush is anti-Christian values. He sells his soul,...

,...to anyone willing to put up the money to keep him in power. He lives by two principles: money and power. Now, tell me,...WWJD?

BAH!!!!

[candy331]

44. Sure religions go ahead and take the money

and sell the rest of your soul to the Gubment. But be fully minded that collection time is coming and you want like it, probably in the tune of loss tax exempt status and censoring of your bigoted teachings. So let them take the money and get in the Gubments pocket and start down the slippery slope to their own demise.

[GiovanniC]

41. Benjamin Franklin Quote:

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 2000 Years of Disbelief

[nolabels]

43. The Iraq invasion was a faith based mission

http://www.unknownnews.net/insanity2.html
Bush considers God a key political ally
by Bill Straub, Scripps Howard News Service

March 5, 2003
(snip)
"The president speaks as he speaks because he believes as he believes," Fleischer said.

Bush's embrace of religion has often been told. He became a self- described born-again Christian, at least in part, because of a battle with the bottle. He hasn't had a drink of liquor since 1986. Born an Episcopalian, he is now a Methodist, the original church of his wife, Laura Bush. He prays daily and often participates in West Wing Bible studies.

When he isn't reading the Bible, Bush often devotes his rising hour to other religious texts. The first lady recently revealed that the president currently is engrossed in "My Utmost for the Highest," a collection of sermons from the late Scottish preacher Oswald Chambers.

"I pray," Bush told those gathered for the National Prayer Breakfast. "I pray for strength, I pray for guidance, I pray for forgiveness. And I pray to offer my thanks for a kind and generous almighty God."
(snip)

http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=9616&TagID=
Worst Rape Photos Of Iraqi Woman By US Military And Israeli Operatives Not Yet Released

uploaded 27 May2004


The new photographs released of the depraved sexual abuse of Iraqi POW's by the US Military Police on orders of CIA and Israeli operatives at the Abu Ghraib prison still do not show the worst of the war crimes. The photographs so far officially released are, without exception, only of male Iraqi prisoners of war. According to returning Mexican-American soldiers and staff members of Congressmen who have viewed the videos and photographs in private sessions, there are far more shocking photographs that have not been released to the public. Senator Richard J. Durbin himself said "There were some awful scenes. It felt like you were descending into one of the rings of hell, and sadly it was our own creation". Other members of Congress said, after viewing the images, that they included Iraqi women exposing their breasts and other private parts. Congressman Martin T. Meehan said, ''I was obviously shocked and horrified to discover that the new photos are even more gruesome than those we have seen in the media. Some of the pictures and videos show actual intercourse between male and female soldiers." In addition, the May10 - 17issue of Newsweek said that yet-unreleased Abu Ghraib abuse photos "include an American soldier having sex with a female Iraqi detainee and American soldiers watching Iraqis have sex with juveniles."
(snip)

http://www.miniluv.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=471
"One of the bad effects of an anti-intellectual philosophy is that thrives upon the errors and confusions of the intellect. Hence it is led to prefer bad thinking to good, to declare every momentary difficulty insoluble, and to regard every foolish mistake as revealing the bankruptcy of intellect and the triumph of intuition. -Bertrand Russel"

[Trillo]

45. The obscene use of Executive Orders must be limited by Congress.

I do not object to the President using his executive powers to grant an extra half-day off work with pay for some federal workers under certain symbolic circumstances.

I do object to a President using Executive Orders to usurp existing law and the legislative powers of Congress.

[Tellurian]

49. Bush discriminates only allowing "HIS" Faith Based Orgs...

access to the funding.


"Thwarted by Congress, the president has sidestepped lawmakers with executive orders and regulations to give religious organizations equal footing in competing for federal contracts. He is still fighting for legislation that would give religious groups access to federal funds as long as their services are available to anyone."

Yes, clever wording.. the services of the federally funded are to be made available to everyone, but the funding itself IS NOT! (which is discriminatory and illegal- imo)

[Chovexani]

51. Great!

So, that means my coven can get federal money for a Pagan daycare center and Tarot for Toddlers program, right?

RIGHT?!

*crickets*

--Chovexani forgets she's the wrong religion sometimes