Venezuela's Chavez to Face Referendum: election Body

[maddezmom]

21 minutes ago Add World - Reuters to My Yahoo!


CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuela's opposition obtained enough signatures to trigger a referendum on the rule of President Hugo Chavez, electoral authorities said on Thursday.

not much more:



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=721&e=2&u=/nm/20040603/wl_nm/venezuela_referendum_dc

another link:

Venezuela Leader Likely Faces Recall Vote
CARACAS, Venezuela - Venezuela's elections council projected Thursday that President Hugo Chavez will face a recall vote, opening a turbulent new phase in this oil-producing nation's volatile power struggle.


AP Photo



National Elections Council director Jorge Rodriguez said that based upon a count of roughly 40 percent of voter signatures, Chavez opponents will have gathered 2.56 million signatures when the counting is completed. That would surpass the 2.43 million signatures — 20 percent of the electorate — required to demand the referendum.


Rodriguez did not say when final results would be released and did not announce a date for a referendum.


Thursday's announcement came after months of wrangling over the recall petition, first submitted in December. Venezuelans are likely to face an election campaign that is likely to further polarize the world's No. 5 oil exporter.

~snip~
more: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=589&ncid=734&e=1&u=/ap/20040603/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_recall

[AP]

1. It'll probably be better for Chavez to win the recall vote than to have

the opposition pretend that he cheated them out of a recall vote.

I understand that if he loses, since more than half his term has passed, the VP will take over.

It's going to be great fun watching what the opposition does to try to win the recall. I imagine daily vomiting all over my computer.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

2. Lots of fun indeed.

For a president living under the cloud of a possible recall vote, Mr Chavez was in confident mood as he announced his decision after a meeting with international observers, including the former US president Jimmy Carter.

If the opposition win, he said, then I am out of here.





http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3762875.stm

[AP]

3. Update on upcoming events:

The electoral council previously said a referendum vote for Aug. 8 in the event enough signatures were verified. A Chavez loss in a recall vote before Aug. 19 would lead to presidential elections a month later. In the event of a loss after Aug. 19, the vice president appointed by Chavez would replace the former paratrooper without elections

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000086&sid=aETMDC4dgw_c&refer=latin_america

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

4. Damn it Jim. Those clever evil bastards. n/t

[AP]

5. The only time I ever saw the good guys get a favorable bounce was

from 98 to 2000, when Pinochet was under arrest, when Milosevic was on the run, and when Clinton and Blair were running their governments for the benefit of people who worked for a living.

All the rest of modern history post-1972 is basically the story of the good guys getting the shaft.

[Vladimir]

7. Further BBC update

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3775185.stm

"Venezuela's opposition has got enough signatures to trigger a referendum on the rule of President Hugo Chavez, electoral officials have said.

Early results showed 2.45 million valid pro-referendum signatures collected, more than the 2.44 million required.

National Elections Council director Jorge Rodriguez did not say when final results would be released and did not announce a date for a referendum. "

Interesting times ahead indeed...

[Imperialism Inc.]

20. The August 8th date has been reported in so many places

that it is virtually impossible that the council will change it.

So, if he loses, both he and his vice-president will go and new elections will be held. Well, actually the order is reversed but you all know what I mean :)

[Vladimir]

21. Except that noone yet knows

if he would be eligible to run in the new election. More twists than a tornado in Kansas...

[Vladimir]

8. Of course this could all be the perfect pretext

for a Haiti style intervention. He wins, they dispute it... we have seen this pattern too many times before.

[AP]

11. But how many times does this guy have to win an election before the super-

wealthy concede that he has the legitimate authority to lead his country?

They're already way past the sour grapes stage.

One thing that Chavez should remind voters is that it's the turnout from the previous election which deterimines the threshold for the recall vote.

If the poor want to make sure that it takes more than 2.44 million signatures to trigger a recall, they better get their assess to the polls and make sure the turnout is as high as possible.

[Vladimir]

12. Which reminds me

how much does Chavez need to win?

[Darranar]

14. No, not yet....

I believe it's not until sometime in August that the VP will take over i f he loses.

[AP]

16. see post #3

[Vladimir]

19. Nevermind

old news

[Mika]

6. Venezuela's elections council PROJECTED

How about this for an intriguing concept..

Lets wait for the signatures to be counted.

[Imperialism Inc.]

22. I hear ya, however,

they were getting a lot of pressure, even from Carter, to release the numbers.

[Imperialism Inc.]

9. Good, Good.

This is probably the best thing for Venezuela. The process has be been given validity. Ironically, so has Chavez.

I really didn't care to see what would happen if the opposition had failed.

*sigh of relief*

[Vladimir]

10. I wonder about

the narrow margin. Either the process was completely honest, and the margin truly narrow (something I am always reluctant to assume even if true), or... one wonders.

[AP]

15. No. I get the impression that they announced that they crossed the ...

...threshold. They'll keep counting all the signatures and announce the total when they're done.

[Vladimir]

17. Ah, OK n/t

[AP]

13. Seriously. Invasion by Columbia must be a last resort. So they've bought..

...themselves some time. A peaceful summer.

[Imperialism Inc.]

18. I know,

it doesn't end their troubles, however with the low opinion people have of the oppostion I am doubtful he will be recalled. This only bolsters him and the oppostion would need to get the same amount of votes as he won with in the last election, which seems unlikely. But that is only one man's opinion.

This also gives any who would use violent means a very weak case that will be very hard to spin, even with the lack of good journalism.

Overall I think it is a very good situation.

[Imperialism Inc.]

23. I have a feeling this thread is going to explode soon.

As enormous numbers of red-faced dictatorship labelers come in to apologize.

Hahahaha. Yeah right.

[Vladimir]

25. Can you feel the breeze? n/t

[geek tragedy]

28. They haven't held the election yet.

And the guy has led military coup attempts before, so you'll excuse me if I wait for the day he peacefully surrenders power before proclaiming him a champion of democracy.

[Vladimir]

29. So has the opposition

what's your point again?

[geek tragedy]

30. That Chavez hasn't proven that he respects democracy

yet.

What's yours? Just because he has some slimy opponents doesn't mean he's not slime himself.

People should wait until he allows a free and fair election to go forward before being all triumphalistic.

To put it another way: Bush is talking about transferring sovereignty and free and fair elections for Iraq. I'm not believing him until it actually happens.

[Vladimir]

31. He proveed his respect for democracy

by not executing every single one of the leaders of the 2002 coup, IMO.

[geek tragedy]

32. Is that the standard--not shooting people?

Oy.

[Vladimir]

33. What about the fact that

he has made no attempts to curb press freedoms, even though most of the press in the country is owned by his opponents?

[geek tragedy]

36. That would be convincing

if it were true.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/venezuela/venez0503.pdf

The press down there is full of Freeperistas, and they haven't behaved responsibly.

The truth be told, I think the right-wing plutocrats and Chavez enable each other, much like Hamas and Likud enable each other.

[Vladimir]

40. Yet the report notes

It is evident, even from street graffiti in Venezuela’s capital, Caracas, that a significant segment of the
population is angered by the press. Many feel that the media have failed to do their essential job of providing the
public with accurate and unbiased information. Both members of the government, and their civilian supporters
who mount angry vigils outside the television studios, share this view. Many journalists interviewed by Human
Rights Watch themselves had deep misgivings about the political role the press is currently playing in Venezuela.

President Chávez himself has delivered stinging attacks on the press, and particularly the private
television networks, as enemies of Venezuela’s “Bolivarian Revolution.” To our knowledge, however, neither
Chávez nor any government official has ordered or directly encouraged government supporters to physically
attack journalists. Indeed, on at least one occasion, Chávez has publicly called on his supporters to respect
journalists, stating: “it’s not the fault of the journalist taking notes in the street, or the photographers or
cameramen … they are workers. The blame lies with the owners of those media.”4 Yet security forces have done
far too little to stop such attacks as they occur and, as noted above, the government has done almost nothing to
bring perpetrators to justice.

In a meeting with President Chávez in June 2002, Human Rights Watch strongly urged him to make clear
that his criticisms of the press in no circumstance justify attacks by his supporters on opposition journalists. In
February 2003, Human Rights Watch reiterated its concerns in a meeting with Venezuela’s minister of
information, Nora Uribe, who frequently accompanies the president during his television broadcasts. Notably,
during his April 27 Hello President program, Chávez did indeed call on his supporters to cease such attacks. “I
call on you to respect journalists and to treat them with the dignity they deserve,” Chávez said. “I ask the people
not to be carried away by the political position taken by a television channel or by the fact that it’s campaigning
against Chávez. We are not going to pin that on the journalists, who are only workers doing their jobs.”

Human Rights Watch welcomes such conciliatory statements, but believes that they must be backed by a
determination to ensure that physical attacks on journalists do not go unpunished. Unfortunately, the efforts made
to date by the Attorney General’s office to investigate these attacks and prosecute those responsible have been
woefully insufficient. The criminal prosecution of those responsible would send a much stronger message to the
public than presidential exhortations alone.

My comment: More follows on regulation, but copyright rules and all that. Chavez is guilty, at worst, of wanting to regulate a media that repeateadly calls him a monkey - and of not crying too many tears when some of these journalists get a taste of their own medicine. Hardly repressive, especially viewed within the context of contemporary South American politics...

[geek tragedy]

41. The regulations and proposed legislation are probably more damning

The violence stuff is hard to prove--could be Chavez behind it, could be just random violence. Can't really tell either way.

But, any time you see legislation talking about prohibiting " a lack of respect" or "insults"--that's a bright red flag.

[Vladimir]

43. Normally I would agree

but in this case, I think its really very lenient. Compared to Chile/Argentina/Venezuela before Chavez/Columbia... this is all small potatoes. And it is beyond insulting to call a native Indian like Chavez a monkey - that to my mind is incitement to racial hatered.

[geek tragedy]

46. Best to nip these things in the bud

Fascism/totalitarianism is often a creeping menace--it gradually becomes more and more pervasive.

As I said, the true test will be the election. If he wins, then that pretty much settles things and there will be no doubt about his legitimacy. If he loses, that will be the test of his commitment to democracy.

[Imperialism Inc.]

50. Good summary.

This gets really tiring having to argue the same exact points over and over and over and over and over and over and over as all these ... ummmm new people show up who have never heard it before.

Damn shame they didn't discover DU a week or two ago instead. Then they would already know this stuff.

[The Magistrate]

35. It Is A Tolerable Rule Of Thumb, Mr. Tragedy

Col. Chavez was elected, after all....

[geek tragedy]

37. It's not how one enters power,

but rather how one leaves it.

[Just Me]

42. Sounds pretty. But, is totally irrational and unrealistic. Sorry. n/t

[geek tragedy]

44. Actually, it's perfectly rational.

The only true test of one's commitment to democracy is where one is asked by the people to surrender power. Remember, Hitler came to power through the democratic process.

"We go into the Reichstag in order to acquire the weapons of democracy from its arsenal. We become Reichstag deputies in order to paralyze the Weimar mentality with its own assistance. If democracy is stupid enough to give us free travel privileges and per diem allowances for this service, that is its affair. We do not worry our heads about this."

Joseph Goebbels

[Vladimir]

45. Well in that case I expect you

won't be able to judge Hugo Chavez for a good while yet. ;)

[geek tragedy]

47. No final judgment

I have suspicions, but I'm not like the freepers who describe him as a dictator. That's my policy towards AWOL as well. ;)

I wish the entire country luck. They're going to need it.

[The Magistrate]

48. There Is, Of Course, Sir, Much More To It Than That

Col. Chavez has not imprisonned, disappeared, killed, or brutalized those working to overthrow him: even those who attempted a coup against him largely remain free and active in the field against him, even though they committed what even the most determined libertarian would have to acknowledge was a criminal act of rebellion. This vapouring to the effect that he is an anti-democratic dictator because he has turned the organs of government against the lager property holders, and the retainers in the professional classes, can pass neither the laugh test nor the smell test.

Further, if you are going to cite the Hiter Chancellorship, you would do well to show some appreciation of the degree of political violence that had marked German political life for the previous decade. No election in Weimar Germany was a "normal" one by our standards here today, and the violence of the Nazi Party was not unrelated to Hitler being asked to form a government by Hindenberg.

[Just Me]

51. Very poignant, there, Magistrate!!! Thank you! *smile*

I found the following Goebbels quote by Tragedy rather disturbing:

"We go into the Reichstag in order to acquire the weapons of democracy from its arsenal. We become Reichstag deputies in order to paralyze the Weimar mentality with its own assistance. If democracy is stupid enough to give us free travel privileges and per diem allowances for this service, that is its affair. We do not worry our heads about this."

It hit so close to home.

I wonder why some people focus so intently on others' issues while simultaneously ignoring their own? Hmmmm.

[The Magistrate]

53. My Pleasure, Ma'am

At the time Goebbels said that, Nazi deputies were joined with Communist deputies in the Reichstag in a wreckers bloc openly cooperating to paralyze the government, even as their gangs fought pitched battles and waged campaigns of assassination against one another in the streets. There is a good deal more to this period than the odd quotes and politicized summaries people traffic in in news groups....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[geek tragedy]

74. As I said, Chavez is NOT a dictator

But, it is too early to adjudge him a champion of democracy and liberty either. His desire to emulate the great Fidel itself leads one to wonder whether he too will be tempted follow the path to authoritarian rule.

The Goebbels comments are often cited by champions of "militant democracy"--the idea that democracy must ensure that it cannot be used as the agent for its own destruction by crypto-fascists using elections as a Trojan horse.

[The Magistrate]

79. Then What Is Your Problem With The Man, Sir?

He was elected, and pledged to restructure a corrupt and oligarchical government so that the people recieved a greater enjoyment of the national wealth. He has taken steps to do this, and in every step has been opposed by the oligarchs and their paid retainers and dependents. These have even resorted to extra-legal means in their opposition, most noteably an attempted coup that was thwarted only because the conscript rank and file of the army remained loyal to the elected government. In the face of all this, Col. Chavez has remained within the law, and has not brutalized his opponents, in the style of older regimes, or of the region. That would seem to me, Sir, an excellent platform from which to proclaim an attachment to lawful democratic process....

[geek tragedy]

83. My problem is not so much

what he has done as what he may wind up doing.

I also wonder if the violence carried out by his supporters meets with his tacit approval. There's absolutely no way of confirming this either way, really. Just a gut instinct.

I hope he proves my suspicions wrong. And I wish him well in fighting the plutocrats and in reforming Venezuela's corrupt government. I just hope he has the wisdom to avoid the temptations that power hold.

Cheers.

[The Magistrate]

87. He Will Not, Sir

Wind up doing anything worse than the oligarchs who oppose him have done for years, and will do should they regain government power. Since there is no third choice on the scene, it gives me no difficulty to align with Col. Chavez, and against his foes, in this matter.

Nor would a certain amount of violence actually directed against the oligarchs and their minions by supporters of Col. Chavez distress me much. People who foment coups are properly shot on failure, and persons who engage in extra-legal activities against a government engage in a damned risky business....

"Revolution is not a tea party."

[geek tragedy]

90. I agree with the first paragraph

but must part ways with you on the second. Shooting and beating people peacefully protesting the government is the work of fascists and goons, not revolutionaries.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

94. Peacefully, are you shittin' me?

How about the people with gas masks, molotov cocktails and designer outfits attacking the national guard? What the fuck are they supposed to do? Oh right they should welcome it with open arms. Tell you what I encourage you to try the same shit here and tell me what happens to you. With a republican or democratic administration. It doesn't matter, you don't do that shit and expect to get away with it. That, my friend is also the work of goons and fascists. The door swings both ways.

I didn't even need to see the Washington Post pictures posted here, regarding those incidents. My friend witnessed it and told me all about it after she came back from visiting her family. BTW peacefull people don't need to place "Bandera Roja" snipers up on rooftops to get their point across do they? Ask the majority of Chavez supporters that died in the "peaceful" demonstrations. Oh wait that's right, THEY'RE DEAD.

[The Magistrate]

97. Any Government, Sir

Has the right to resist revolution: that applies to those abhorrent to me as well as those congenial; it is the business of revolutionists to see to it, in either case, the government they target cannot make effective use of that right. Do not imagine me, Sir, to have any principled opposition to violence; my character has many flaws, but that is not among them.

[JohnLocke]

103. I think Locke is applicable.

Second Treatise on Government, Part 19.

[The Magistrate]

111. It Seems To Me, Sir

That in the circumstances of Venezuela, prior to Col. Chavez being elected, there is great question whether the situation the estimable Mr. Locke considers the proper foundation of society and government in fact existed.

Where the greatest mass of people have no property, should men possessed of property enter into a compact of governance to protect it, they must necessarily be doing so in order to protect their property from the mass of their fellow countrymen. This can only be done by exerting a tyranny over them, and a government formed to such a purpose cannot but be a tyrannical one. In such a circumstance it seems to me there is no commonwealth, nor any assent by the propertyless who are tyrannized over, and that not only do the mass of people have the right to disregard such a government, but that those owning property secured by such a government have no right to security in it.

[Darranar]

104. "Peacefully"? n/t

[AP]

106. Remember windansea's picture of the protests:

He showed a picture of a soldier dragging a man and accused the army of being fascistic.

It turned out that it was an AP picture from a series of pictures showing that the guy was a homeless man, he was shouting at the fascist opposition. The opposition started shooting at him, so the soldier ran out, grabbed him and pulled him to safety. That was how the AP reported captioned the photos, and it was what was clearly going on in the pictures.

[Judi Lynn]

119. That was an interesting time, AP.

It was amazing how quickly Windansea dropped the subject altogether.

They never have the good sense or graciousness to admit stupid attempts to misinform have misfired when they are caught. They just scurry off to rummage around for something else from the opposition grab-bag.

Remember how much complete crap Otto Reich through into the mix before he was chased away while working for Reagan/Bush on their Contra endeavors.

[Imperialism Inc.]

61. Your suspicions don't seem very reasonable to me.

Does he get any credit for being elected twice, by over 50% of the vote last time, a claim that our own President can't even make?
Does he get any credit for not acting as an authoritarian and stopping this recall?
Does he get any credit for not cracking down on the press for encouraging an unlawful coup, other than taxing them for political speech?
Does he get any credit for not cracking down on the press for falsifying reports to frame his government in events that took place the day of the coup?
Does he get any credit for exiling and not imprisoning people that overthrew a democratically elected government?
Does he get any credit for the improved and now free education he has given to his people?
Does he get any credit for the improved infant mortality rate, life expectancy and improved health care in his country?
Does he get any credit for fixing prices for the poor and implementing capital controls to keep his economy at least somewhat stable even after all that has been done to wreck the country?
Does he get any credit for enfranchising the poor in his country and improving people's ability to interact with their government?
Does he get any credit for new media outlets that finally provide some modicum of balance and choice in his country?
Does he get any credit for new unions to compete with (not replace) the corrupt ones?
Does he get any credit for praising JFK(Kerry) and for obviously admiring JFK(Kennedy)?
Does he get any credit for finally implementing some of JFK's(Kennedy) reforms?
Does his idol Simon Bolivar get any credit for modeling himself after and being comparable to George Washington?
With all that and more can you honestly say he doesn't deserve to get credit as a the Democrat he is?
Just what does this guy have to do to be given his just credit as a Democrat?
Does he really need to step down to get any credit?
Did we really need to see Jimmy Carter step down to not consider him a potential dictator in anything other than a theoretical way?
Did we really need to see Bill Clinton step down to not consider him a potential dictator in anything other than a theoretical way?
Does maneuvering within the gray areas with regard to court appointments really nullify all of that?
Is it possible that it is really also to solve a very real problem of corruption?
Does proposing bad law to deal with a real problem of media distortion, lack of balance and calls for violent coups make one a dictator wannabe?
I don't agree with a fairness doctrine for various reasons and that law does go too far, but is it possible that it is simply a negotiating position?
Do you realize that his opposition and the media both are receiving money from a (currently) right wing government much like was done in El Salvador and other places? (The US I am referring to)
Hasn't basically every US president maneuvered within the laws and gray areas to give himself and his party whatever advantages he can?
And finally,
Are you freakin' serious?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

63. This is the kind of shit he has to deal with.

BTW this publication is taken seriously down there. It is not as some will probably suggest a "National Enquirer" type prank.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/10/1652306.php






Real photo




If Col. Chavez is such a despotic son of a bitch. Wouldn't his actions speak for themselves? Why do they have to do this dumb shit? If the Wash. Post or New Yorker did this to Clinton or Bush the shit would hit the fan.

[geek tragedy]

78. First off,

Castro, Mao, and Stalin--all dictators--did a number of the postive things you cite.

Carter and Clinton never used armed force to gain power, and their supporters didn't use organized violence against domestic opponents.

"Bad law" to the detriment of free speech is a step towards tyranny.

I weigh his praise of a living Castro more than his praise of the dead Kennedy, who was Castro's enemy.

He gets no credit for "not acting like an authoritarian" by not shutting down the recall. Just like DU'ers don't "get credit" for avoiding racist language.

As I've said, he's not a dictator like the freepers claim he is. However, power corrupts, and he has shown a tendency, imo, to become impatient with the requirements of democractic government.

His plutocratic opponents are right-wing fiends, but he and his especially his followers are not justified in treating all political rivals as enemies.

I actually hope he wins this election, and then focuses more on getting his message out (though I suspect the people understand his message) rather than fighting what his opponents are saying.

If he delivers the goods in terms of social justice and provides sources of news to Venezuelans to rival the right-wingers, he'll have no need, or excuse, to shut down his opponents for causing "incitement."

[Judi Lynn]

120. Superior post, MiddleMen. Looks as if you've done more reading

in this area than the folks who show up here trashing Hugo Chavez.

I'm afraid you'll find they won't read your post, either. That's the pattern.

It's a shame, as the post is EXCELLENT.

We do have some supporters here of the non-Democratic method in Venezuela. It didn't work in the past, as evidenced by the appalling state of the country when Chavez was elected, the WILD disparity in rich and poor, and the horrendous level of unbelievably poor people.
Venezuela needs change, and change is gonna happen. It's just a matter of time.

[Imperialism Inc.]

34. How can you stand like that

without any legs?

[geek tragedy]

38. One has no need of legs

when one rests upon the truth.

[Judi Lynn]

54. DU'ers already know that he lead opposition to Carlos Andres Perez

who was impeached for massive corruption, and taking 17,000,000.00 which was NOT his. He was also responsible for having forces gun down hundreds of poor people protesting extreme measures he had taken, in Caracas.

Hugo Chavez was pardoned by a subsequent President, Rafael Caldera.

It's quite a bit more interesting than right-wing characterizations of Hugo Chavez as the man at fault would lead sensible people to believe.

[Judi Lynn]

55. Just found a reference to the massacre ordered by Carlos Andres Perez

Published: Friday, June 04, 2004
Bylined to: Phoebe Jones


US intervention in Venezuela ... no more blood, rape and other torture for oil

As with Iraq, the most respected newspapers are being used to justify overt US intervention in Venezuela. Unlike Saddam Hussein, Hugo Chavez was democratically elected and has one of the best human rights records anywhere ... yet we hear constant references to him as dictator, demagogue, populist.

As with Iraq, the Bush administration wants to privatize, that is, take over, Venezuela's oil. Those who elected President Chavez want to use their oil revenue to tackle the poverty suffered by 80% of Venezuela's population, mainly people of African and Indigenous descent. This refusal of the corruption and theft which ruled oil production for over 40 years is presented as 'undemocratic'.

Far from being isolated, President Chavez has wide and growing support among people in many countries and increasingly among governments, especially in Latin America. The same cannot be said of President Bush.

Chavez is attempting to bring together countries of the South, beginning with Latin America, to refuse IMF privatization policies. Such policies have caused over $2 trillion to flow from Latin America to the US and Europe during the past 20 years. There are many examples of what this has meant for Latin Americans. We mention only two: the "Caracazo" (Caracas's 1989 popular uprising against the overnight doubling of fares), violently repressed by the army, left 2000 people dead; and the economy of Argentina under the IMF's direction, collapsed, reducing 50% of its population to poverty.
(snip/...)

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=21478

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The fares mentioned which were doubled were the fares paid by the poor in Caracas for transportation on the city's bus system upon which they depended to get to their jobs and everywhere else.

Carlos Andres Perez (who stole $17,000,000.00 of Venezuela's tax money) saw it as a good place to pick up some quick cash, and doubled their fares, which was CRUSHING to the poorest in Venezuela, and they poured out into the streets, and then poured out their blood as they were shot to death.


El Caracazo
Memorial of the CaracazoPoor Venezuelans protesting, El Caracazo. Note their absense of designer clothing, wrist rockets, and a sneering, haughty attitude. Looks like it went poorly for them.


Carlos Andres Perez, the donor of a rash of hard times to Venezuela's poorest.

[geek tragedy]

73. Perez was a turd

I think everyone already agreed on that.

But the pattern very often in Latin American governments is to exchange one set of bastards for another.

Hopefully, Chavez will discontinue that trend. The book is still very much open on that.

[Judi Lynn]

118. Thanks for your input. n/t

[Joanne98]

24. And the oil workers just announced a strike. Didn't they hate Chavez?

[AP]

26. The union leaders hate chavez. they're in bed with the oligarchs.

[Freddie Stubbs]

39. Who elected the union leaders?

Union leaders don't often stay in leadership positions for long when they go against the strong wishes of the rank-and-file.

[AP]

52. Management.

[Imperialism Inc.]

27. I can't find a link on that.

The previous strike was more of lock-out really. But what do you call it when managers in a state owned company do a lockout? A strike I guess.

[Imperialism Inc.]

49. That report is bogus. Completely bogus

1) ECOPETROL is a Colombian oil company.

2) That site looks my kid designed it.

3) It is the only english post on there.

4) I've been had

lol.

[Judi Lynn]

56. Unexpected remarks carried in rightwing-pandering Miami Herald

Quite interesting:

From:

Posted on Fri, Jun. 04, 2004

VENEZUELA | ANALYSIS

Though shaken by blow, Chávez won't play dead

Some analysts said Hugo Chávez has been significantly weakened, but others pointed out that he has a long reputation as a tough fighter.

BY RICHARD BRAND

[e-mail]

(snip)
......''The opposition is united right now, but selecting a candidate is going to be a very difficult issue,'' said Simón Alberto Consalvi, a former foreign minister. ``Whoever is chosen has to be with the moderate left. Chávez has created a politics of inclusion with respect to the excluded, so only somebody who has that kind of character can have electoral success.''

Whichever side comes out on top will have to govern a nation of 24 million people wracked by decades of mismanagement and corruption and plagued by a startlingly unequal division of wealth.

''The bottom line for me is that nobody should expect that whatever is announced is going to resolve this conflict,'' said Michael Shifter, a senior fellow at the Inter-American Dialogue in Washington. ``Given the depth of Venezuela's problems and the rage on both sides, resolution will be a very long-term process.''
(snip/...)

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/americas/8833705.htm
Free registration required

[Vladimir]

57. Hmmm... one wonders who they

will be able to find that fits this bill. Although I suspect with the level of control the opposition has over media in Venezuela, selling people won't be a huge problem. Having a fair election, on the other hand, will.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

59. The Miami Herald was saying that the Venezuelan Gov't owns a 28% stake

in the company that makes the software for the voting machines so - expect the Right Wingers to cry foul if Chavez wins!

Edit: Link - http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/rss/8780409.htm?1c

[Freddie Stubbs]

58. This is great news

Now Chavez will be able to show the world just how popular he is. If the is as beloved by the Venezuelan people as some of his supporters here at DU say that he is, he should win by a landslide.

[The Blue Knight]

60. I think this is good news for Chavez

I think he's popular in Venezuala, then this is an oppurtunity to show the world how popular he is among his people.

[Freddie Stubbs]

67. If he is popular he has absolutely nothing to fear

Popular officials don't get recalled.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

69. I used to think popular presidents who had commited no crimes

could not be impeached either. But I guess the right wing has a way of turning things around. Don't they? Good to see you're siding with them on this one. Keep up the bad work.

[Freddie Stubbs]

77. Although he was impeached, he was not removed

He was to popular. Even some Republicans voted to aquit him.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

89. Freddie Freddie Fred Fred, my man, no shit, really?

Of course he was. The point is that the senate had to bail his ass out. For no good reason might I add. He shouldn't have been put in that position in the first place. No reason whatsoever. The point is that money can buy you a lot of things. Anything you want presidents, recalls, you name it. The Republicans have a lot for their dirty tricks. Do they not?

What the so called opposition is trying to accomplish here is to create a sort of Chavez fatigue if you will. A la Clinton in 2000. In order to demoralize people and get their way in the end. As you can see by the photoshoped picture above. They can say whatever they want. Remember most people in Venezuela have no access to the net. So how are they supposed to know when they're being fed a pile of shit? Why do they manipulate video images? Why would Pedro Carmona (like you even know who he is, OK 5 minutes to google it up) tell CNN that he was in control when he had already fled Miraflores Palace. Why would they have constant commentary against the president and never present rebuttals? Why, why, why, why why?

Read David Brock and other media critics. The exact same parallels are taking place right now over there. The problem is that they don't have well informed citizens such as yourself to help counter the barrage of lies. People believe what the read and what they see on TV. Come on now even you would have to admit that much. Well probably not, but oh well.

[Imperialism Inc.]

62. It is sad that that is all you have to say for yourself. (nt)

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

64. Is that you Pauly Shore? n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

100. Nope

;)

[Judi Lynn]

65. You could say he will win by a landslide AGAIN. n/t

[HuckleB]

66. The story in the British press:

BBC: Chavez 'prepared' for referendum

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3775185.stm

The Economist: Recalling Chávez

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2742044

[HuckleB]

68. Yesterday -- Attack Stirs Venezuelan Tension Before Vote Decision

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=5338781

[AP]

70. Probably the same members of the opposition who murdered people

in April 2002 and tried to pretend Chavez supporters did it.

[HuckleB]

72. Quite the assumptions.

[AP]

75. In my opinion, it's quite the assumption that they're Chavez supporters,

given what's gone on historically over the last couple years.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

91. It is not necessary to make any assumption

Gunmen on Thursday attacked the office of the Caracas mayor, an opponent of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, as tensions flared before a decision on whether Chavez must face an August referendum on his rule, police said.

The assailants fired automatic weapons and handguns in the attack, which the city's metropolitan mayor Alfredo Pena blamed on supporters of the left-wing president who opposed the holding of a recall vote on his rule.

One policeman was slightly hurt by flying glass as the bullets shattered windows and lights.

"These are groups of desperate people who don't want there to be a referendum," said Pena, who is a fierce critic of Chavez and a leading member of the opposition.

Groups of rioters also set fire to several cars and trucks near the presidential palace in Caracas. Pro-government supporters mobbed and beat up a well-known opposition member of parliament, police and firemen said.
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=5338781

You can just look at the facts, and weigh the likelihood that this Chavez opponent staged a phony attack on himself, using live ammo, in order to discredit unnamed people, against the likelihood that people who wanted to kill him, tried to kill him.

Similarly, you can weigh the likelihood that 'Pro-government supporters mobbed and beat up a well-known opposition member of parliament' against the likelihood that 'opposition supporters mobbed and beat up a well-known opposition member of parliament'.


No unfounded assumptions are necessary, just critical reading and thinking.

[HuckleB]

95. Exactly.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

99. It was also widely reported that pro-Chavez gunmen were shooting at

innocent anti-chavez protesters during the coup - turned out THEY were being shot at by anti-Chavez gunmen and there were no innocent protesters present.

I'm just saying there are many sides to every story. I will concede that that is an ugly incident and doesn't look good for Chavez, but that's what I thought when I saw the news reports from the incident I just mentioned. I reserve my judgement for more info.

[AP]

102. It's naive to believe that the opposition wouldn't do this.

[HuckleB]

108. It's also naive to believe that pro-Chavez people wouldn't do this.

[AP]

109. I'm talking probabilities. Given what has happened in the past in VZ,

chances are the opposition staged this.

It's their MO.

[HuckleB]

112. Not probabilities, but what you want to believe.

It's been done on all sides.

[HuckleB]

71. Also yesterday -- Agents found in vault with recall petitions

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/americas/8823753.htm

[AP]

76. Sound like it might have to do with this:

During the repair process, numerous irregularities were reported. Investigative police managed to confiscate thousands of forged ID cards during raids. There were numerous reports of signatures belonging to dead people being repaired by others using cloned ID cards, a fact confirmed by electoral authorities. According to CNE board member Jorge Rodriguez, out of 80,000 voters who died between January and july, 50,000 death certificates were not turned in to the Commission of Electoral Registry of the CNE to be excluded from the voters registry. Shortly after the forms for the repair process were made, the additional death certificates were finally turned in little by little. Rodriguez attributes internal sabotage for the failure to exclude the dead from the registry. As a result, 15,863 dead persons re-verified "their" signatures.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1285

(And it certainly wouldn't be like the Miami Herald to make spin something in favor of the opposition, would it?)

[HuckleB]

96. That story was reported in a number of places.

And it's not like the source you offered isn't pro-Chavez to the hilt.

[AP]

101. It's not like any American media has been anything but anti-Chavez.

The NYT endorsed the coup on their editorial page.

[HuckleB]

107. If you say so...

whatever you need to believe.

[AP]

110. Truth: NYT published a pro-coup editorial day after the coup.

I bet you can't find one article published in the NYT or one story on NPR or CNN which hasn't been either entirely useless, subtley pro-opposition, or explicitly pro-opposition.

By the way, in The Revolution Will Not be Televised, there's a scene where CNN is caught blatanly broadcasting a lie.

[HuckleB]

113. Anecdotes will get you nowhere.

But thanks for trying, er repeating the same old same old.

[Judi Lynn]

117. In what way would you say AP's post is anecdotal? n/t On 2nd thought....

On edit, I'd like to thank you in advance for any help you might provide.

Thanks, thanks a lot. Really! Thanks.

[Judi Lynn]

116. You left out part of the article which is equally important

However, Jorge Rodriguez, a director opposition leaders label as government-friendly, said the federal agents were authorized to enter the vault as part of an investigation into allegations that identification cards belonging to dead people had been used in a process to verify signatures on petitions.

''This isn't related to the signature verifications process . . . it won't affect the results,'' Rodriguez told Globovision television. Elections officials were counting voter signatures during a process that ended Sunday. More than 500,000 signatures were needed to trigger a recall vote, which could be held Aug. 8. A decision could be announced by Saturday.
(snip)

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/americas/8823753.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So the information in this article was relayed to the Miami Herald through Globovision.

Globovision is owned by the "Rupert Murdoch" of Latin America, Gustavo Cisneros. What an ass.

• A delegation of Venezuelan businessmen, including an executive with Globovision, came to town and was treated by the television stations and most of the daily newspapers as the collective voice of the Venezuelan people. No opposing point of view was presented or acknowledged. Globovision is owned by Gustavo Cisneros, the main financier of the efforts to overthrow Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez and also owner of the Univision cable network and principal owner of DirecTV. In the latter roles Cisneros has a business relationship with the Panamanian television industry. None of the local TV stations mentioned this.
(snip/...)

http://www.thepanamanews.com/pn/v_09/issue_19/editorial.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Globovision, the country's top 24-hour news station and CNN affiliate, spent much of the day rebroadcasting upbeat footage of Chavez's ouster. An announcer repeatedly cautioned viewers, "We are living in times of political change." Viewers were urged to be "prudent" and avoid spreading "false alarms" and "rumors."

Moreover, Globovision president Alberto Ravell reportedly telephoned CNN offices in Atlanta to request the U.S. network join the blackout. CNN's Spanish-language station was giving ample coverage to Saturday's events, making it almost the only source of news for those with access to cable or satellite.

In a statement, CNN did not confirm or deny the request. Instead, an official statement acknowledged the affiliation with Globovision, adding, "We retain editorial control of all material which airs on the CNN networks."

On Tuesday, in an emotional appearance on his own station, Ravell asked for forgiveness "from any viewer who feels we failed them that day."
(snip/...)

http://www.stpetersburgtimes.com/2002/04/18/Worldandnation/Media_accused_in_fail.shtml

[ButterflyBlood]

80. dammit

This is just like Gray Davis all over again

[geek tragedy]

81. Except that people in California

really hated Gray Davis and wanted him gone. He was an embarrassment to the Democratic party.

[ButterflyBlood]

82. wow, an Arnold apologist

we had quite a few of them back then, no suprise some are coming now.

I guess California's better off with a REPUBLICAN in charge, huh?

[geek tragedy]

84. Bite me.

What did I say about the Gropeinator? It is a F-A-C-T that the people of California were unhappy with Gray Davis, and that he won reelection not because the people wanted to keep him, but rather because the Republicans nominated a right-wing ogre (due in part to Davis running ads against his more moderate opponent in the Republican primary).

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/5636590.htm

****************
Posted on Tue, Apr. 15, 2003





Davis rating plunges in poll

24% APPROVAL STATE'S LOWEST IN 55 YEARS

By Mike Zapler

Mercury News


Gov. Gray Davis' approval rating has reached the lowest point of any California governor in the past 55 years, and nearly half of voters now say they would throw him out of office if a recall effort makes the ballot.

Those are the results from a stinging California Field Poll released Monday in which nearly two-thirds of the California voters surveyed said they disapprove of the way Davis is handling his job.

[ButterflyBlood]

86. and he won fair and square

the Republicans could've played fair and nominated Riordian in which case they would've won easily, but they didn't. Their loss. They played the game wrong and wanted to play it over. Childish. Just like Chavez's enemies and the people duped by the propaganda spewed out by the Venezuelan equivalent of FAUX and the Rupert Murdoch of Venezuela, the main one behind the massive propaganda campaign against Chavez.

[geek tragedy]

88. The recall was a reaction against

the sometimes undemocratic nature of the two-party system. The voters were forced to keep a guy they didn't want to because the only alternative was worse.

Did the Republicans exploit it and behave like A-holes? Yes they did. But it was made possible by Gray Davis.

[rinsd]

93. Not so sure.....

I think Chavez has far more popular support than Gray Davis ever did.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

85. Chavez says he'll accept likely recall

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said Thursday he'll accept a probable recall referendum on his presidency, predicting he will defeat the opposition in "the decisive battle."

"I accept it. I accept it," Chavez said in a nationwide broadcast hours after Venezuela's elections council projected that Chavez would face a recall vote, opening a turbulent new phase in the oil-producing nation's volatile power struggle.

Chavez welcomed the news, saying it was a triumph for Venezuelan democracy. He said it disproved opposition allegations that he was steering the country into dictatorship and vowed to win the referendum.

<snip>

For a recall to succeed, more citizens would have to vote against Chavez than the 3.76 million people who re-elected him in 2000.
http://www.charleston.net/stories/060404/wor_04venez.shtml

[ButterflyBlood]

92. giving in like Gore and Davis

a little bad. but at least this will shut up the propaganda-spewers who claim he's a bloodthirsty dictator.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

98. Absolutely - he seems downright confident

good for him

[Darranar]

105. So much for "Chavez interfering with democracy"...

if he had, he wouldn't face a recall, would he?

[HuckleB]

114. Yeah, sure, you betcha.

As if he didn't do everything he could to block the process, until the world started to pay attention and he had no choice. Thank Jimmy Carter, not Chavez for the process moving on in democratic manner.

[Judi Lynn]

115. It would be better to see some links to bear out your pronoucements.

He knew the world was already watching. You may forget, the _Bush administration backed the coup. Everyone knows _Bush is not going to back away, or give up. Everyone has been watching Venezuela from that time onward.

Chavez is completely aware of this. Everyone who can read knows Chavez is not going to have one moment in which he will not be under a microscope until he leaves office.

[Darranar]

121. That's ridiculous...

The first recall attempt was fraudulent, and accordingly the officials in charge of supervising these matters declared it illegitimate. If that was Chavez's fault, why didn't he do the same this time?

The "world" is not the US, and Carter was actually complimentary of Chavez.