Panel to review 1979 anti-Klan slayings

[struggle4progress]

<snip>
The newly certified members of the Greensboro Truth and Reconciliation Commission take on a duty that may put them squarely at odds with the city's most powerful leaders.
<snip>

The shootings took place as members of the Communist Workers Party conducted a "Death to the Klan" march on Nov. 3, 1979, designed in part to help raise enthusiasm for an effort to organize textile workers at local mills.

Members of the Ku Klux Klan and neo-Nazis arrived in nine cars. Gunfire was exchanged. Five marchers died.

Two criminal trials yielded only one conviction, the result of a plea.
<snip>
http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/news/local/8912554.htm

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[TahitiNut]

2. "shooting at each other"???

Isn't it funny how our biases affect our ability to read? Lemme see ... one group (KKK + Neo-Nazi's) kills five people peacefully marching. Yeah, I can easily see how that could be read as "shooting at each other." Uh-huh.
:puke:

[Name removed]

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[Goldmund]

4. Glad they're dead?????

Would you say the same if the marchers were Christians, under whose banner millions of people were brutally murdered as well?

Actually, you'd be hard-pressed to find an ideology in whose name people have not been brutally murdered.

The only facts that matter are this: there was a group of people peacefully marching to express their views. What you think about their views is absolutely irrelevant. They were attacked by a criminal band of thugs, whose ideology is also irrelevant. They were killed.

And you're glad they're dead?

And you call yourself a liberal?

[Name removed]

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[joeybee12]

8. So, those who try to organize textile workers are morons and deserve to

die?

Are you taking time out from listening to Rush to join us here at DU?

[Goldmund]

9. "In this one particular case"???

How is this case different from any other case?

Substitute "communist" for "liberal" and you have a fascist freeper post. Actually, you don't even have to substitute, since most of them think that liberals are communists as it is.

[struggle4progress]

11. I once met a woman who participated ...

in this Communist march.

She turned out to be a very sincere pro-life Catholic, committed to non-violence and social justice, a wonderful person overall, perhaps a bit naive about politics. I'm having trouble understanding why you would think the Klan shooting at such a person qualifies as PPV-type entertainment.

I'd guess you're indulging some prejudices. In fact, not all "Communists" are Stalinists.

[dxbiker]

57. nice post n/t

[Solly Mack]

6. So, in your America, it's OK to murder people while they exercise

their right to free speech ?


Are you exercising your right to free speech in saying that? Just curious... :evilgrin:

[NeoConned]

7. If they are either communists or racists

Yes, because both are in effect using the right of free speech to create a movement that will take that right away from us all.

[Solly Mack]

10. OK. I feel the exact same way about neocons, republicans, fascists

religious nutcases and people who advocate murder as a cure to speech they don't like. :eyes:





edit: for the sake of those who have failed to develop the sardonic gene.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Solly Mack]

19. this from the man who advocates murder for free speech he doesn't like?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL ..and further..is too stupid to realise he advocates his own death in the doing.

Jeepers Creepers

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[Solly Mack]

26. You applauded the murder of people who were exercising their free speech

regardless if you agree with what that speech is, we can't go around applauding the murder of those we disagree with.

You later added the "PPV" to your already stated pleasure in the murder of those you don't agree with.

I don't agree with you but that doesn't mean I want you murdered. ...or your murder a "PPV" event.

[DoNotRefill]

18. It depends.

If they're standing around singing "We Shall Overcome" in a peaceful manner while unarmed, it's not justifiable to shoot them.

If they're marching around shouting "Death to you!" while carrying guns, well, then shooting them is much more likely to look like an act of justifiable homicide.

[Solly Mack]

20. were they carrying guns? IF is a mighty big word

the poster is advocating death as a cure to speech he doesn't agree with. I somehow don't find that to be acceptable...maybe some liberals do. :shrug:

[DoNotRefill]

27. While googling...

I find many sites that neither confirm that they were armed or deny that they were armed. I also find sites that say that they were in fact armed, and that gunfire was exchanged, so it wasn't a one-sided shooting affair. Also, the CWP was apparently a proponent of being armed (as were the Black Panthers), so it makes sense that at least some of them would have been packing.

Recalling the video I saw on "City Confidential" on A&E, I DO remember seeing some of them shooting back.

Free speech isn't unfettered. For example, speech that would incite an immediate breach of the peace has long been held to NOT be protected speech. Walking around carrying guns and shouting "Death to the Klan" in the South would be an activity that a reasonable person would have to conclude is likely to cause an immediate breach of the peace, as was borne out by later events. As such, their conduct WAS NOT PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

They went out looking for a fight, and they found it. While it's tragic that 5 of them died, they took the risk.

[Solly Mack]

29. IF they were out looking for a fight, that was very stupid

but finding web sites that both say yes they were and no, they weren't doesn't really make it conclusive , to me, that they were.

However, I never saw the video.

But remember:

Just because no one denies carrying a gun doesn't mean they did carry a gun. (so when did you stop beating your wife?)

I took issue with the person being joyous people were killed simply because they didn't agree with their ideas.

I don't applaud being killed over ideas. I don't take joy in it.

Because there may come a day when someone doesn't like what I think and decide to kill me.

[union_maid]

30. They were brave people

The Klan was a very real threat then. It took guts to march against them and someone had to speak out. They had support from a lot of very traditional places including black churches in the area.

[Solly Mack]

32. Thank you. I read your other post and it added needed detail

I agree...going against the Klan is very brave. Even today but especially in the 70's.

[DoNotRefill]

38. Brave, but stupid.

If you're going to a gunfight, you don't bring a snubbie revolver with a 2 inch barrel. You bring serious firepower (high capacity rifles and shotguns), and all of your friends, with their serious firepower. ESPECIALLY when dealing with racist redneck Southerners.

[union_maid]

40. They weren't going to a gunfight

I guess all the people who protested with MLK were stupid, too. Some of them died for their efforts but they made profound changes to this nation. In another case from the same era, a Klan group in Georgia was successfully sued for a wrongful death and had to give up their building and property as a result. When local law enforcement won't do the job, some people give up their lives to change things.

[DoNotRefill]

42. Union, I'm going on what I've found on the net and the video.

the information I've found by groups not affiliated with EITHER the CWP or the KKK folks strongly suggests that the CWP folks WERE looking to provoke a confrontation, and that at least SOME of them were armed and shot at the Klansmen.

[union_maid]

47. Fine, but you're still wrong

To call people stupid because they are willing to risk their lives against evil is a total surrender to that evil. We might not all be able to match their courage, but the least we can do is acknowlege it. The Klan killed people. They knew that. The sheriff of the town was in the Klan. The Klan was like a deadly Grange or something. As far as the sort of people who were in that march, I'm going by the words of someone very close to me who knew every one of the survivors. Not violent people. Just leftists of the day. The kind who organized where it was dangerous, not just around college students.

[DoNotRefill]

51. I've said nothing about a lack of courage.

they were very brave to do what they did. That doesn't alter the fact that it was, IMHO, stupid. It's one thing if you get caught in the machinery accidentally and crushed. That's tragic. It's quite another if you start the machinery up, find the spot that you KNOW the machine press is going to strike, and then put your head down on it and wait. THAT'S stupidity. Brave stupidity, but stupidity nonetheless.

Using nonviolence against government agents can give you the moral high ground. Using nonviolence against the Klan will get you a body bag. They're two different groups, and require two different philosophies to combat.

[NickB79]

55. Were they going to a gunfight though?

It's one thing to carry a gun for self-defense while marching, and quite another to be part of a lynch mob invading a person's property to kill them. I am not very familiar with the case, but from what I've read it appears the Klan were the ones that were going to a gunfight. The protesters were conducting a march that I assume was on public property down the streets, and the Klan members were the ones that showed up in cars and trucks. It would be one thing to have an armed mob invading the home or land of a Klansman shouting "Death to the Klan" and shoot in defense, but quite another to drive out to where the protest was and start shooting. The very fact the crowd members were carrying handguns instead of rifles and shotguns seems to imply to me they were carrying concealed for self-defense, not for an offensive gunfight.

[DoNotRefill]

58. Nick, from what I've read, it seems that the CWP people...

basically challenged the Klan to come out and "play".

The Klan didn't "just show up" out of the blue.

Most of what I've read seems to read like an old 1950's style gang fight. Deeds were done to irritate and inflame both sides. A formal challenge was issued. The proverbial gauntlet was thrown down. The Klan picked it up, a "rumble" ensued, and the Klan proceeded to kick the Communist's asses, to the tune of 5 KIA.

To me, it sounds like the Communists were looking for a fight, and figured that the Klan would respond with a certain level of incompetence in their battle plan. The Klan, rather than responding in the way the Communists seemed to want (by coming into the public housing project lightly armed and ill prepared), came "loaded for bear", undoubtedly because they were in fact going into a public housing project. In other words, the Communists "set the stage", and then BADLY underestimated the Klan's response. The CWP folks were counting on the Klan's well known reputation for stupidity. Klan ideology is stupid. Individual Klansmen can be quite wily, even tactically astute.

[Name removed]

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[Solly Mack]

36. Oh, they'll definitely be Bush supporters or other assorted righwing types

:)

[DoNotRefill]

37. From what I've read....

they basically sent challenges to the Klan, asking them to come out.

This wasn't the first incident between these two groups. Apparently, a few weeks before the shooting, the CWP had gone to the town the Klan group was from during a Klan protest there, and publicly burned a Confederate Flag.

The sites that seem to be affiliated with the CWP that I've read don't say if they were armed or not. Of course, they have an interest in playing down the fact that they were armed and shot back. Multiple newspaper reports say they were, and that shots were exchanged, and I recall seeing at least one African-American shooting at the Klansmen on the video. Unless the Klan in NC has changed their recruitment standards, the fact that he was African-American pretty conclusively rules out his being a Klansman. I don't think that the Nazis have become an Equal Opportunity group, either.

It'd be one thing if the CWP folks were all in fact "peaceniks" who were set upon by the Klansmen without warning or provocation. Everything I've read indicates that this was NOT the case, that the CWP folks were a militant group, were looking for a fight with the Klan, taunted the Klan, and got their asses kicked for their trouble. If you go out deliberately trying to piss off the uncaged tiger, you shouldn't be surprised when the tiger turns around and bites you.

[Solly Mack]

39. There seems to be conflicting stories.

I don't know the full truth of it.

I used to go and mock the klan at their marches. I also taunted them whenever they were gathered on street corners, handing out leaflets. I didn't deserve to die for it. To my thinking, it was my duty to get in the face of evil.

I was born and raised in Georgia.

[DoNotRefill]

41. there always are conflicting stories, and lots of revisionism.

There's a difference between mocking the Klan and actually going out and picking a fight with them. I've done both. I carry a gun (permitted, of course) with me when I mock them, just in case. When I've picked fights with them, I didn't announce my intentions beforehand, giving them a chance to get their friends and their guns. Even so, I still took a gun with me, just in case. "Be prepared" is more than just the Boy Scout's motto.

I'm not siding with the Klan on this. I don't think that the CWP people DESERVED to be shot. But getting shot was a logical conclusion of their actions, and they were nowhere NEARLY as well prepared as they should have been. As such, they do bear some responsibility, both for being unprepared and for precipitating the violence.

You don't bring a knife to a gunfight. And if you KNOW there's going to be a gunfight and you can't avoid it ("He who hides and runs away, lives to fight another day"), you go loaded for bear.

[Solly Mack]

45. MLK knew there was going to be a fight..and he still told the marchers to

act peacefully.


I knew there would be violence at the 1987 Civil Rights March in Forsyth County Georgia. I still went without a weapon...and just weeks before a group of protestors were attacked by the klan there. So we went back...and some got attacked again. I was almost killed by a bunch of yahoos in a car.

I understand you're not siding with the Klan.

[DoNotRefill]

46. I've never been into non-violence....

I'd prefer that there not be violence, but if attacked, I'll defend myself.

Different philosophies, same general goal.

[Solly Mack]

49. I understand

I'm a firm believer in self-defense. I just won't carry a weapon to a protest. To be truthful,I don't carry a weapon at all.

My husband is military but I refuse to allow guns in my home....even if he ever wanted to have one, that is. lol He's not big on a gun in the house either.

Though, to be perfectly honest, I don't think I would have too much trouble pulling the trigger in self-defense.

[JanMichael]

31. I've seen the video on several occasions and have only seen one side...

...shooting. That'd be the Nazi/KKK types.

Either way the KKK came to murder them with police assistance so frankly it doesn't matter to me. I suppose however that this is what the Truth and Reconciliation process is all about.

[Solly Mack]

34. Thank you!

As I stated, I never saw the video. I was just so put off that someone would applaud their murders...and was reacting to that.

[DoNotRefill]

44. Jan, I've looked for the video on-line....

and can't find it.

Our recollections obviously differ. Without the video to look at, I don't know which of us is right.

[JanMichael]

54. I'm in the general vicinity of the incident.

Seen it a while back, as well as recently.

That said I don't think it matters much anyway since the Greensboro Police epartment, the FBI, and the ATF (?) are all implicated in assisting Nazi's by, calling the killers in advance, then disappearing for lunch right in time for them to drive up and shoot people (Regardless of their politics) in front of news cameras.

It matters not if a handgun fired shots 3, 4, 5, in the ensuing bloodbath. A gun in lousy public housing? What a shocker.

[NashVegas]

43. Are You Also Happy About FBI / Police Duplicity?

just wonderin'

[Wilber_Stool]

53. Communism didn't kill them,

Stalin did.

[DoNotRefill]

17. If they were marching peacefully....

maybe "Death to the Klan" wasn't the best slogan to show their nonviolent nature and intent...

Personally, if somebody was marching carrying signs that said "Death to DoNotRefill", I'd take that as a personal threat. I think most people would. I'm pretty sure that if you had people marching around waving signs that said "Death to TahitiNut", you'd take it as a threat. It's certain that the Klan took "Death to the Klan" as a threat. And judging by the verdicts, it seems that the jurors thought it was a threat, too.

If you want to have a nonviolent march, maybe, JUST maybe, you shouldn't go shouting about "Death to whomever".

BTW, I've seen video of the shooting on A&E. It does appear that some of the communists WERE in fact shooting back.

[TahitiNut]

48. There's a HUGE difference between ...

... "Death To Enron" and "Death Skilling and Lay."

When one advocates the (hyperbolic) "death" of an evil organization one is not necessarily (or even typically) advocating the death or killing of an individual or individuals.

Quite frankly, I don't advocate violence or killing in any form. At the same time, I don't think carrying ANY kind of sign would cause me to shoot the person(s) carrying them. If I thought it was a threat, I'd call the police.

As for what the "jury" thought ... I lived in the south (Mobile) in the early 60's (I left the same day as Mississippi Burning) and was well aware of the kinds of 'verdicts' were delivered.

[NickB79]

56. Even by that logic

The Klansmen did NOT have the right to drive out and start shooting. If they felt their lives were in danger, and they were far enough away they had to drive to reach the protest, they should have called police and had the protesters arrested.

[DoNotRefill]

59. If the Klan were decent human beings, that's what they'd have done.

Obviously, they're not decent human beings. And I don't think the Klan was JUSTIFIED in what they did. However, there were some mitigating circumstances which, if I was the Klan's defense counsel (which I'm not, that's the good part about being a SP, the ability to pick and choose the type of clients that you represent), I could bring up to cast reasonable doubt into the minds of the jury.

From what I've read, it would seem to be fairly simple for the Klan defense team to make the situation look to the jury as though it was mutual combat instigated by the CWP, not homicide.

Let me try to put it in layman's terms. If you go to a bar, drink a bunch, and proceed to pick a fight with somebody, who then stomps your ass, odds are excellent that the jury isn't going to look at you as a particularly sympathetic victim.

[JanMichael]

21. Unarmed protestors get shot & you're "Sorry you missed it"?

Rot in hell.

[DrWeird]

23. Don't feed the trolls, people.

nt

[kodi]

13. the klan shot people who were prone on the ground already wounded

there is film of several of the klan members running up to people flat on their stomachs and shooting them in the head and back.

and they were found innocent.

i was in the triade that day and all hell broke loose. i will never go on a march again unarmed versus the klan.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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[JanMichael]

24. They asked for Police protection & got a "NO". They requested a permit...

...to have weapons & were declined.

Then the fucking POLICE radio the KKK and give them the time and date AND were in radio contact for most of that day with those fuckers.

FACTS.

[DrWeird]

25. That's why I bring a gun when freepers are around.

Because my grandpa shot nazis and I'd love to keep up with the family traditions.

[kodi]

35. only time i've ever shown my weapon was to deter rednecks from violence

it was 1996 in the mountains of NC when I was with two women and a guy who worked with me at the Natural Law Party in Boone NC and we were accosted in a back-country restaurant/bar.

we were sitting there eating our dinner at the bar when four red-necks came in and started talking loud about kicking some faggot ass. the two women were in sun dresses looking like earth mothers, the guy and i were long-haired hippie looking types.

it was like something out of easy rider. so we left immediately and these 4 clowns followed us out making smart-assed remarks about kicking our asses. i told the three i was with to get on the other side of my car and i as i opened the driver's side door i reached under my seat and got my pistol. i stood up and just leveled it at them and told them to back the fuck off.

we got out of there in a hurry and i know damn right well if i had not had that weapon my ass was their's, as was the other guy's and the two women's.

don't even try to tell me about 2nd amendment rights.

[union_maid]

28. Whoa..my sister helped in a lawsuit that resulted from this

After the all white juries aquitted the Klan members despite video evidence of the shootings a whole bunch of civil rights related organizations sent lawyers to help in a lawsuit against the Klan, the FBI and the local police on behalf of the widows and children of those shot. The ones who weren't local spent about a year down there working on it. They did win a judgement but not as large a one as they'd hoped for. The attorneys did not and never intended to take anything from the judgement. They basically lived on subsistance pay contributed from various organizations.

[struggle4progress]

50. New generation of Americans tries truth and reconciliation ...

to heal old racial wounds

<snip>
On November 3 1979 five Communist Worker party members were killed and 10 other people wounded at a demonstration against the Ku Klux Klan in Greensboro. Four television stations caught Klan and American Nazi party members removing guns from the boots of their cars but two trials, with all-white juries, ended in acquittals.
<snip>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1238104,00.html

[struggle4progress]

52. Weekend Swearing-In Set

<snip>
Former Greensboro mayor Carolyn Allen is involved in the effort, and says the Greensboro Truth and Reconciliation Commission is modeled after similar efforts to heal racial divides in South Africa following apartheid.
<snip>
http://www.wral.com/news/3408330/detail.html


Carolyn Allen is no radical. If she's involved, there are still real questions to be resolved.