Southern Baptists near showdown on departure

[HarveyBriggs]

From the AP in USA Today

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-06-15-southern-baptists_x.htm

"The Southern Baptist Convention was expected to decide Tuesday whether to quit the alliance because some participants in its events are considered too liberal in theology or 'anti-American" in tone.'"

Hey more southerners who want to secede from something, where have I heard that before?

Gotta hand it to this group of folks. They think we can successfully occupy a nation full of religious fundamentalists when this group is living proof that 140 years of occupying the land of the Southern Baptist has been an abject failure.

Of course, a lot of the congregation believes that the right to carry handguns keeps a nation free, when they also believe that in Iraq the right to carry RPGs won't get the job done.

The "anti-American in tone" part is rich. I must have missed the verse in Sunday school that said, "Whosoever is American enough in tone shall have everlasting life."

Meanwhile in Abu Gharib, the prisoners have long run out of cheecks to turn. And, as we have seen, I mean all four of them.

Harvey Briggs

[boobooday]

1. Godless Promoters of Women!

So, now you have TWO tests to pass.

One, do you declare Jesus Christ as your personal savior at a level of intensity and fervor suitable to us zealots?

Two, do you blindly follow the Republican party with all the jingoism and nationalism in your heart, so help you God?



http://www.wgoeshome.com

[Lars39]

7. They've already weeded out some of the more open-minded fundies.

An earlier test was several years ago.....missionaries had to sign a sworn statement that they believed in the inerrancy of the bible.

[LizW]

18. The statement also included a provision that the wife

would "submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of" the husband.

http://www.utm.edu/martinarea/fbc/bfm/18.html

Some missionaries refused to sign the statement and were fired. A friend of mine attends a liberal SBC church and they knew a missionary couple who was fired by the SBC just months before retirement because they wouldn't sign. This was after a lifetime of traveling all over the world for the church.

My friend's church raises money to support them and give them a place to live.

[Lars39]

32. Yes, "the little woman" decision, too.

Argh. There were quite a few missionaries that wouldn't sign, and were fired. I'm glad that church is helping that couple.

[mbperrin]

2. What's new? The SBC was formed

to justify slavery and get away from that anti-whatever abolitionist crowd.

And you are absolutely right about the ability to occupy fundamentalist territory - just doesn't work, does it? They keep flying their old flags, singing their old songs, continue with old oppressions and bad behaviors.

Ah well........

[Lars39]

8. Southern Baptists have been on the wrong side of every single

civil rights issue to come down the pike.

[apnu]

24. Good point!

I think, we Americans, tend to forget what exactly happened before, during and just after the Civil War and in so doing, we lose a good bit our our identity and understanding of our own culture.

People have a tendency to forget that the Abolitionist movement was a largely religious organization, and the SBC was a religious response to that.

The irony is, the Abolitionists don't seem to be present today, yet the SBC is very present. And oddly enough, the Abolitionists won that argument. Also, Lincoln (last "liberal" Republican) courted them pretty heavily in his second term run.

Bearing that in mind, I find it an odd quirk of fate that the SBC has such a deep attachment to the GOP, when they are an organization, once again, founded to fight the "liberal" GOP tide that was sweeping the nation in the pre-dawn of the Civil War.

But then, perhaps the SBC hasn't changed its spots, rather the spots changed elsewhere. We are quick to forget the pole shift of the two dominate political parties after the Civil War. The current purge in the GOP to rid itself of moderates isn't the first purge for the party. No, after Lincoln died, the liberals in the GOP were very weak, and the Conservatives purged them. The Democrats, at the time, were very corrupt and being Democrat had a bad wring to it in the late 1800's so those corrupt (and Conservative incidentally) bastards moved into the GOP during that purge. The liberals, left out in the cold choose not to form a new party but fight fire with fire and entered the Democratic party and took it over, rebuilding it into the liberal force that it is today.

But still, I find it strange that the Abolitionists are gone, yet the SBC remains. I wonder what that means?

[phantom power]

49. The SBC remains exactly because they lost

They didn't achieve their goal: they are still in opposition to the winners, what we call "modern society". The Abolitionists aren't "gone" so much as they are embodied in our current value system. But, as a movement, they achieved their goal, and so there's really no reason for the movement to still exist.

[struggle4progress]

52. Thanks! This is a really important piece of history!

In 1844 the issues of missionary work and slavery came to a peak. The Home Mission Society gave a statement saying that a person could not be a missionary and wish to keep his slaves as property. This caused the Home Mission Society to separate northern and southern divisions. As a result of this the Baptists in the south met in May of 1845 and organized the Southern Baptist Convention.
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/sbaptists.html

[lovedems]

3. My in-laws (mother, father and 3 sister in-laws)

are all southern baptist.

They were the Jim and Tammy Faye Baker types. Had really nice cabins at Heritage USA because they were such big donors.

I love them because they are my in-laws but they are scary in their beliefs. Very fanatical. They are also missionaries who go to Haiti. They get pissed off at me when I ask them "If a Muslim or Catholic came into your home and tried to convert you, how would you feel?" What is good for the goose is not good for the gander. They get very upset with me.

[apnu]

28. Interesting...

I don't mean to pry, but that story is fascinating. How do they respond? (Besides being angry) Do they try to explain the question away? Do they have a justification crutch? Do they ignore the question all together and red herring you?

I only ask, because I've posed similar questions to other fundies and gotten all manner of responses. A few even ignored my inquiry and just crashed on with the attempted conversion none the less!

[lovedems]

33. They believe it is their duty to convert people to Christianity.

Like most poorly educated people, they don't have a reasoned response to my inquiries. When I ask them how can you be pro-life and pro-capital punishment at the same time, their response is "that is just the way christians believe". I would have alot more respect if they would give me a concrete answer instead of "that is just how it is" response.

They don't care that other people practice other religions. As a matter of fact, they think they are going to hell and it is their duty to save them from that fate. In short, thier beliefs are right and everyone else is wrong and they go to other countries to preach the rightness of their beliefs.

I raise my children Catholic and they are respectful but have let me know on numerous occassions "now that is a religion I don't understand". They actually preach at my in-laws church that Catholics will go to hell!

I respect their "faith", not their practices.

[apnu]

39. I'm on the same page with you on that...

... but from a different angle. I'm not religious at all, and its a private issue for me. I generally don't go about trying to poke holes in people's faiths, as some that I know. And whenever someone wants to bend a knee to whatever their god may be, I don't get in the way and respect their faith.

I believe that religion is a personal and private issue and shouldn't be shared at all unless you are in a group of like minded people. And because of that, I am deeply disturbed by conversation attempts of any kind. And seeing that the SBC's are really aggressive about it, I have a huge problem with them. Personally, if someone needs to find God, its their business and they should be left to their own time and devices to find that god. I think that when someone else "helps", it's unseemly, rude and an affront to the "free will" often talked about in the Bible.

Being Catholic in this country isn't easy, unless you live in Chicago or Boston. The US also has a history of persecution of Catholics, especially during the Ellis Island years. Kudos to you for hanging in there with your beliefs and faiths -- don't let anybody change your mind -- that's your job and your job alone.

Good luck with your in-laws, I hope your well of patience never dries up.

[lovedems]

42. Thank you!

:hug:

That was a very nice post! Your compassion for other people doesn't go unnoticed.

I don't want to leave my church. I want my church to do what is right. I want my kids to have a foundation and believe me when I tell you, they are free to reject it if they so choose. My job is to build a foundation, it is their job to build on it, not mine. However, intolerance in that foundation is not an option, so I will wait patiently to see what the Bishops do. If attending mass no longer feels right, I will have some soul searching to do.

I will maintain my patience with my in-laws. I love my husband to much to interfere with his relationship with his family. Despite their beliefs, he still loves them and it isn't for me to cause tension.

[playahata1]

4. It is attitudes such as those described here

that drove Jimmy Carter from the denomination.

[Shadder]

17. It is attitudes such as those described here

That drove ME from the denomination and I've never looked back once.

[DBoon]

5. My in-laws are Southern Baptist

If we had been married in a Catholic Church, they would not have attended, as they regard Catholics as "idol worshippers" (not that I'm much of a Catholic but that's another story). Their minister keeps hitting up on their congregation to give to some "creation science" outfit.

Very scary that this is now the most powerful denomination in the US.

[Raster]

13. creation science == oxymoran

[treepig]

41. really? are you sure?

clearly, you haven't seen this utterly convincing site:

http://objective.jesussave.us/creation.html

(you know, i really really want to think it's a parody, but somehow i think not . . .)

[AlabamaYankee]

43. It may be a parody

It seems to share some links with Landover Baptist, but at this level of nutcasianism it's hard to tell.

[TrogL]

44. Can't be fake - they've got a picture of a living dinosaur

Details here -> http://objective.jesussave.us/dinoexpedition.html

[treepig]

45. aha, like it says, a Behemoth of the Book of Job

who can have any doubts after seeing that, hallejah!!

(of course, the first time through, i completely missed it as i apparently didn't study the site as thoroughly as you . . . in any event, you'd think they'd want to highlight evidence like this at the top of the front-page - geez, they might even be able to tie in with the jurassic park people and get some advertising $$'s flowing their way . . .).

[struggle4progress]

53. It is a parody.

Check out Professor Giraffenstein in 4kidz, the flag page (author is "a member of the National Association of Christian Game Theoreticians"), and the Landover Baptist link.

I think the site was written by Christians to lampoon certain Fundamentalists.

[lovedems]

34. Interesting...

My Southern Baptist in-laws wouldn't attend the baptism mass of our children. They did attend my oldest sons first communion mass back in May but they didn't think it was a mass, they thought it was just a ceremony.

Our Monsignor and parochial vicar came to our house for the party after my sons communion and they steered clear of conversation with them. I was embarrassed.

[tom_paine]

6. Just the Spritual Descendants of the Nazis making ready

They will be a large proportion of the Camp Guards and the Paid Informats and the Nationalized Neighborhood Watch.

[David__77]

9. They're at the tipping point.

If they go too far, they will become irrelevant, or at least quite "countercultural," like militia types.

[Lars39]

12. I've been hearing some grumblings from the members that haven't

totally signed their brains over to the sb's. One of the last things to make some of them mad is finding out that all of the money that they gave for missionary work was invested in stocks!

They were totally outraged by this fact, and I don't blame them. Some of the sb congregations are small and poor. It's really a struggle for them to try to keep up with the sb expectations.

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. One of them gets it

"When the executive committee decided to propose the pullout to the annual meeting, the moderate editor of the Texas convention newspaper charged that "fundamentalists must control. What they cannot control, they abandon and undermine.""

[Flubadubya]

11. They must trust in the rapture...

and not worry about this. Those old card-carrying, liberal-minded, anti-Americans will be left behind to deal with all this crap. Why, these wonderful, bible-thumpin', Bush-lovin' folk will be long gone.

Their motto really should be... "What, Me Worry?" It's good enough for the one they idolize, why shouldn't it be good enough for them?

[colonel odis]

14. wouldn't it be interesting if the southern baptists just for once

acted like christians?

i was raised southern baptist and have baptsists going back to my who knows how many great grandparents.

it's a form of worship i'm comfortable with. the music is greast. and, god knows, the food's great.

i'd go back in a heartbeat if they hadn't become such a pack of politically motivated, pharasaical, braying jackals.

boy, are a lot of them going to be surprised in the afterlife.

[Jokerman]

15. I'm waiting for their departure from Indy

After wondering why there was a larger than usual number of idiot drivers with out-of-town plates on the road, I heard that there were 35K extra southern baptists in town.

If God is their copilot, maybe he could give them a quick review of the traffic laws.

[Bake]

16. I've been a Southern Baptist all my life -- but not anymore

I grew up in the largest Southern Baptist Church in a medium-sized town in west Tennessee. I went to Sunday School and learned to sing "Jesus Loves Me" and to be a good and decent person who loves others. I married the pastor's daughter. I went to a Baptist liberal arts college and from there, went on to the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, back in the old days, where I was taught (in both institutions) how to think for myself, to use the mind that God gave me, to ask and consider difficult questions about theology, philosophy, history, and the role of the church in contemporary society. Southern Baptists in those days -- the 1960s and 1970s -- were good and decent people who treasured the separation of church and state. The president of the Seminary, Duke McCall, was a respected denominational statesman who wrote a column every month called "Thinking Aloud" -- which he said was a conscious play on the phrase "thinking allowed." The faculty at Southern consisted of world-renowned scholars like George Beasley-Murray (from London) and Frank Stagg, and Henlee Barnette. In short, I learned to be a liberal because that's what Jesus was.

Then in the late 70s, I saw the fundamentalists begin to take over. Professors under whom I had studied in college and seminary began to be pushed into early retirement or fired outright. Slowly but inexorably, the fundamentalists took over. They won.

The Southern Baptist Convention of today is nothing like the SBC I grew up in. My church left me. I suppose I'm still too much of a Baptist (at least what USED to be Baptist) to be anything else, but I'm not comfortable anymore as a Baptist. So where does that leave me? Pretty much non-institutional, non-denominational.

Bake

[Shadder]

22. I feel exactly the same way.

I grew up in a good sized Baptist Church and the folks that attended were not only were good and decent people who treasured the separation of church and state, but they also understiod that people had the right to worship as they felt. Yeah, there were a lot of people in the Church (my dad included) that had very little in the way of good things to say about the Catholics but at the same time they accepted the fact that this was how they chose to worship and there was never any talk of trying to convert them. In fact one of my Dads best friends from work who we use to go visit quite often was a Catholic and hey, that Friday night Fish Fry over at the Cathoilc Church was a normal supper for us.

I've given up on the Baptist Church for one reason only. When I attend Church, it's to worship God and not the Republican Party.

[jdj]

26. Anita Bryant started it.

I think.

But I am not sure what incited their ravenous ant-intellectualism. Maybe poor whites doing so badly in the inflation of the late 70's and looking for someone to blame, which partisan politics is always happy to provide. I don't remember Ford being vicious this way, but if Reagan was willing to commit treason to get elected then of course he would have incited the churches if given a chance. My parents were in it, as was I, and I remember some ridiculous b.s. they used to come up with. They would hold meetings at church protesting the secular humanism of school textbooks. Feminism was going strong; I remember my Mom bringing me a newspaper picture of Agent 99 from Get Smart (Barbara Feldon?), marching for feminism at a protest, and saying "See this woman, she wants men and women to use the SAME BATHROOMS!" Remember that old line, sure she heard that at church. Well, I was only 5 or 6, so I looked down the hall at our bathroom, which me and my brothers and sister used, and I just remember thinking "my mother has gone crazy."

[apnu]

40. Great story! n/t

[Malva Zebrina]

37. The history of that takeover is interesting. No less than Chuck Colsen

was involved in the stealth that upended and finally ousted the more liberal members who were leaders. It was the only mainstream church that approved of Bush's war. It boasts 16 million members. Jimmy Carter was a member but resigned when they became so fundamentalist and rigid that it was unbearable for him.

They have, like the insane Bush they support, pissed off lots of people--by issuing their pamphlets trying to convert Jews and Muslims. They issue these on the high holy days of these religions to add insult to injury. They do not say nice things.

[Snow]

38. Fascinating. And it would seem that Billy Graham's branch of

religion, whatever it is, is going the opposite way, ie becoming what your experience of old SBC was. The LA Times ran a very interesting article about this, focusing on Fuller Seminary in Pasadena, which seems to be the center of that particular movement. They're about a half-mile from where I'm sitting; a good friend came out of their graduate psych counselling program; and I ride my bike through their campus every day on my commute - a very pretty campus it is.

[Tansy_Gold]

54. Southern Baptist Theological Seminary -- was the subject

of a documentary film about the ousting -- "forced resignation" -- of a prominent and popular female professor of theology, Molly Marshall. The film is "Battle for the Minds."

<snip from one review>
Much of the film discusses the forced resignation of Molly Marshall, a noted theologian, and the movement to make Southern Seminary conform to the right-wing views of the leadership of the convention. There are interviews with people on both sides of the debate from those who spearheaded the original takeover to Marshall herself.

<end snip>

The film was shown on PBS and may be available at some libraries. It's very good, and very chilling.

Lots of reviews at
http://www.battlefortheminds.com


Tansy Gold

[classof56]

19. Could be a problem for local congregations...

After not going to church for many years I have recently been attending an SBC church a couple blocks from where I now live. The pastor is a very devout and intense young man, committed to his ministry, but I am waiting for him to tell me how to vote. I'll then be forced to find another church or go back to my stay-at-home-Sunday-morning mode. SBC almost lost me for good several years ago when they decided that my mother (a widow) and daughter (single), both members of SBC churches, did not have status because they did not constitute a "family". Seems to me that SBCers by and large fail to ask the question: What would Jesus do? Always a tough one to answer in a lot of circumstances, but worth consideration. I'm pretty sure the SBC doesn't realize how many outsiders they are turning off to the gospel. They're part of the reason I am...

A Tired Old Cynic

[Sandpiper]

20. The Southern Baptist Convention has violated the first commandment

"...Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

The SBC has turned to idolatry. They have become worshipers of the state, and their god is now the United States of America.

I don't recall any passage of the bible that condemned blasphemy against the United States.

[tlcandie]

21. I really dunno what all the fuss is about...?!

According to these folks we are in the time of the beast...666... and end of days! The end of the world is any day now and they will be leaving the rest of us heathens to this hell on earth!

I thought that in the end of days, they were suppose to try to bring as many under their wings as possible so NONE would be left behind?!?!

Instead we are treated as the lepers use to be and soon I guess we will have our own 'leper colonies' because we are so unclean!

[Bake]

23. The historic Baptist position on eschatology

Historically, Baptists were NOT premillenial dispensationalists (a la "Left Behind"). They were amillenialists. I remember my pastor poking holes at the fundie position, while emphasizing what we do with our lives in the here and now!

Yep, the Baptists pretty much left me. I didn't leave them.

Bake

[salin]

55. I grew up in a very liberal American Baptist church

very little emphasis on doing things for the sake only of going to heaven. Emphasis was very much on living in the here in now according to the compassion and calling of Christ (as in - doing for those in need, caring about all - be they Christian or not - as each was a creation of God.)

When the new church building was built (before my memory) a very small UCC (United Church of Christ) congregation began to meet in our chapel (the regular church met in a large sanctuary). Sunday school classes and adult discussion groups were merged from both congregations.

Somewhere along the way - the two churches merged into a single congregation.

I never understood there was this Southern Baptist denomination until college - when I attended a Baptist church (blithely assuming it was the same) in the early 80s... and oooooh my goodness was ... a bit frightened. What a difference.

Lived in a number of different places and never quite found a congregation like the one in which I grew up (American Baptist congregations were also harder to find - and I was alway uneasy possibly stumbling into the very foreign (to me) southern Baptist church.) Eventually joined the UCC church - a quite liberal denomination. Primarily because it fits so much to my very liberal Baptist upbringing. Hard to even conceive of putting those words (liberal and Baptist) together these days.

[bill]

25. The problem with Southern Baptists is..

they're not held under the water long enough :evilgrin:

[The empressof all]

48. that's hysterical

Thanks for that

[Maeve]

27. Update--it is done

Southern Baptists Quit World Alliance
35 minutes ago
By RICHARD N. OSTLING, AP Religion Writer

INDIANAPOLIS - The Southern Baptist Convention voted Tuesday to quit the Baptist World Alliance following complaints that some members of the loose, global association had adopted liberal theology and "anti-American" thinking.
more

[jdj]

29. Whatever happened to "Thou shalt have no other Gods

before me"? That's why they ruled in the 40's that kids didn't have to salute the flag if it was against their religion. We need to watch these folks like a hawk now, they are free to get political, and free to lose their tax exempt status if they go too far.

[shawn703]

30. As a Southern Baptist

I disagree with the BF&M that has been forced upon us (even though I was only a Southern Baptist for a year before it came). Baptists have been non-creedal until recently when the fundamentalist minority took over the SBC. My church is probably considered liberal among Baptists, since we even dare to have women deacons. It's a shame that they pulled out of the BWA since it's just showing that they're focused on their own narrow agendas instead of the larger mission of Christianity.

[zanana]

31. Question: Would your church be better off if...

Would you feel glad or upset if they broke off from the main group?

[cap]

35. as a catholic...

I am watching the posts on this board and wonder if we'll start to feel the same way you SBCs do about your church...it used to be a nice place to be....

[shawn703]

36. Wouldn't matter to me

And actually, I feel the SBC is just making itself less relevant. One of the reasons the Protestants came into existance is because they did not agree with the ways the Catholic church said they had to worship.

Everything a Christian needs to worship can be found in the Bible. We don't need the SBC or the Vatican to tell us how to do what the Holy Spirit will lead us to do without their help.

[AndyTiedye]

46. Could your church join the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship?

>> The last straw came in 2003, when the alliance accepted as a member the Cooperative
>> Baptist Fellowship, a rival group to the SBC formed by moderates who oppose
>> denominational leaders' conservative policies.

If the SBC dislikes them that much, they must be doing something right.

[TahitiNut]

47. This makes SBC nothing more than a political group.

If their avowed dogma is Nationalist (e.g. determinant of "anti-Americanism") and their activism is predominantly the endorsement of strictly partisan political positions, then they're a political advocacy group not a church!! As far as I'm concerned, Scientology is more qualified for religious tax exemptions than an organization as hypocritical as the SBC.

The pervasive deceit and hypocrisy is totally reprehensible. :puke:

[Rex]

50. Heard SBCs leader on NPR today.

He sounds like a real knuckle dragger. Evolution definitely passed by this idiot.

[struggle4progress]

51. BWA response

“The decision of the SBC to withdraw is indeed a sad day in the history of our organization,” said Denton Lotz, General Secretary.

“Many letters and voices of Baptists from around the world have asked the question why?” said Lotz. “Why are the Southern Baptists leaving us. We have worked together for 100 years. Why in this day when nations are fighting with one another, with terrorist attacks from within and without. Why now?”

“We do not really understand why in spite of many words,” Lotz said. The BWA rejects the allegations that it holds aberrant theological views, is anti-American and anti-capitalist and did not follow proper procedures when it admitted the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship (CBF) into its membership, all reasons used to buttress the SBC’s argument to leave the BWA.

In the end, Lotz says, “God is the judge and one day in His grace, all truth will come to light and He will be the judge of all of us.”

http://www.bwanet.org/News/sbctoseverties.htm