Layton goes on attack in leadership debate, gets under Martin's skin

[Minstrel Boy]

OTTAWA (CP) - Jack Layton left behind little dead air in Tuesday's leadership debate as he elbowed his way into the centre of waspish exchanges with his Liberal and Conservative counterparts.

The NDP leader took a far more aggressive approach than he did the night before in the French debate, interrupting other leaders and filling pauses during free exchanges. Layton eventually got under the skin of Liberal Leader Paul Martin. "Mr. Layton, did your handlers tell you to talk all the time?" Martin said with a chuckle as Layton hounded him over relations with the United States and Canadian participation in missile defence.

...

Layton gave Harper equal grief on his social policy and military spending plans. He mused that Harper wants to make Canada the 51st state.

As he heads west for the rest of this week, Layton has gambled on a two-front attack, hoping to steal seats from the Conservatives in western Canada and from the Liberals in the big cities.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/CanadaVotes/2004/06/15/500813-cp.html

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. Will Harper loose???

[Minstrel Boy]

7. Interesting analysis on the CBC from Chantel Hebert.

She said the debate may have arrested Conservative momentum, killed the slim chance of Harper's forming a majority government, and that Martin won himself a window of opportunity to reverse his slide.

My aside about Conservative momentum: it's been arrested already! A nightly tracking poll by SES-CPAC shows that, over the past week, the Conservatives are down four points and the NDP is up four points. But is anyone talking about the NDP's momentum? Nooooooo.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

2. I wonder if we'll be seeing clips of Martin's snide little comment to Jack

"did your handlers tell you to talk so much?" That struck me as a pretty major misstep for Martin, it sounded un-prime ministerial and forced, and left him open to a nasty comeback from Jack.
In general, Harper didn't suck, so he 'won', Jack forced his way into the two-way dialogue effectively, so he 'won', but I think Duceppe may have really won. The only loser tonight was poor old blotchy Paul Martin.

[Markus182]

19. I already saw one

They showed it on The National right after the debate. Bad move by Martin. I personally found him much more annoying than Layton in the debate. He came off as very arrogant to me by the way that he would snicker and smirk at what the other candidates were saying. Also, he wouldn't answer a SINGLE question that anyone asked him. He just had his own agenda and he totally ignored everything that everyone else had to say. I know that politicians always deflect questions, but he did it to an extreme tonight; to me it shows that he has no answers to those questions because the other candidates are right and he is wrong.

[TrogL]

39. That's normal for him

he wouldn't answer a SINGLE question that anyone asked him

I'm a supporter and I can't get a straight answer out of him.

[Sticky]

3. Washington Post article

Liberals Trail, Poll Shows, As Vote in Canada Nears
Wednesday, June 16, 2004; Page A16


TORONTO, June 15 -- With national elections scheduled in less than two weeks, a leading public opinion poll showed on Tuesday that Prime Minister Paul Martin's Liberal Party has fallen behind the rival Conservative Party.

-snip-

If Stephen Harper has enough seats, we will have a Conservative prime minister," said John Wright, senior vice president of Ipsos-Reid. "People look at Canadians as being dull and reserved, but they take their candidates seriously. One could argue with a four-party system it is far more volatile."

Maclean's, a major national magazine, ran a headline this week that boiled down the essence of the election: "Two months ago, the idea seemed far-fetched. No more. How do you like the sound of Prime Minister Stephen Harper?"


more
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44652-2004Jun15.html

[bushwakker]

4. You are headed for a Conservative gov't in Canada

thanks to Mr Layton. Enjoy.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

5. Thanks to Layton? Thanks to Paul Martin and his inept campaigning.

How do you figure Layton is responsible? Duceppe's party has many more seats than the NDP. None of this would be an issue if the Liberals weren't so lousy at defending themselves and so great at damaging themselves. That's where any blame lies here.

[bushwakker]

9. Admittedly I know very little about Canadian politics

Seems to the left is being split up? Maybe you could educate me a little. How long has the NDP been around and where does it fit on the spectrum?

[Minstrel Boy]

15. The NDP's been around for 40 years, and it's a successor party

to one that had been around for 30 years before that. It's not a Liberal splinter. It's socialist. And most New Democrats would object to the Liberals being described as "Left."

[Screaming Lord Byron]

16. NDP = Left, Liberal = Centre, Conservative = Right.

The NDP has existed since the mid-thirties (when it was known as the CCF. Remember, though, as we have a parliamentary system, third parties are viable alternatives. The blame for this likely loss lies with an inept Liberal party whose internal divisions and cackhandedness have sabotaged their chances.

[bushwakker]

18. Was Mr Layton' s father a Conservative leader?

I was recently in Montreal and heard this? Is My Layton a former Conservative? You have two options on this last question - Would you prefer a Liberal gov't or a Conservative gov't? One or the other. Frankly I take the Canadian elections very seriously in that I don't want AWOL to have a lap dog ally to the north - which is what a Conservative PM will be.

[Markus182]

20. Don't worry

If there is a Conservative government, they're not going to have carte blanche over policy. It will very likely be a minority government, meaning they have less than 50% of the seats (THANKS to third parties, this is possible!). So if they try to do anything controversial, all the House has to do is call a vote of non-confidence, and Parliament is instantly dissolved and we're off to a new election.

[CHIMO]

21. This Is

A simplistic answer.
The government controls the agenda.
When one controls the agenda you can bring in issues that will divide and get the people to the point where they are fed up with indecision and want a strong government.
I would not make light of a minority government in being unable to steer things to their objectives. One must keep in mind that we have a much more controlled media and they have great weight in directing the views.

[bushwakker]

23. It's naiive to think a Conservative gov't will be unable

to push an un-progressive agenda. Many in this country thought AWOL would be impotent because of the way he was (not) elected. How wrong they were. Obviously a parliamentary system could curtail excesses - but still I wouldn't welcome a Conseravtive PM in Canada. US conservatives will hail it as some kind of harbinger of what's to come in our elections.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

26. If the Conservatives are stupid enough to attempt their true agenda

I have no doubt the Canadian public will destroy their Frankenstein party in short order. Your point of view would render permanent Liberal government. I don't want that either.

[tameszu]

30. Do you live in Ontario?

You wouldn't be so darned smug about this if you had to go through 2 terms of Mike #*&$* Harris. And the McGuinty's Liberals, while hardly a portrait of compentence, are already behind the leaderless PCs in the polls after only 6 months of trying to clean up the mess the Tories left them.

I don't want a permanent Liberal government, but I would like the Liberals to beat up on the Tories until thay have sense to clean out their Alliance freaks. I also would rather not stir up the sovereignty situation any more than it needs to be stirred up...

[Screaming Lord Byron]

31. Alberta. That beats Ontario.

And it's certainly not me being smug around here. The people responsible for the CPC boost are incompetent, cack-handed Liberals, not the NDP. If the Liberals throw the game, it's neither our fault nor our responsibility.

[bushwakker]

41. You obviously prefer the Conservatives to the Liberals

be careful what you wish for

[Screaming Lord Byron]

42. A vote for Paul Martin is a vote for the Conservatives.

See? The argument works both ways. Do you really want to go down that path?
That's why I'm working to change the electoral system.

[Minstrel Boy]

24. In a multi-party parliament, it's not a simple either/or.

A minority goverment is the most likely result of this election, and most Canadians actually want it. Minority parliaments have given Canada some of our best governments and most progressive legislation.

Even if the Conservatives win the most seats, they will not form a majority government. The numbers are simply not there for them. And if they lead a minority government, they will need to moderate their policies to work with the other parties.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

25. Layton's dad was a Progressive Conservative Cabinet Minister in the '80s.

Your grasp of our politics seems a little loose, there.

[tameszu]

27. No, third parties are NOT viable in a Westminister Parliamentary system

Westminister systems (First-Past-the-Post single-member districts) tend to return majority governments and if the populace can be distributed on a roughly 1-dimensional (e.g. left-right) axis, then third parties tend to vote split in a classical fashion. Third parties are only helpful in Canada for providing a regional voice. As much as I appreciate PROVINCIAL NDP parties, especially those electing governments in Sask. and Man., the Federal Party has little chance of ever getting into power, and now that the PCs have gone Gingrich/neo-con, they are positively harmful.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

29. Yes, third parties are viable in a Westminster style system.

Otherwise the Labour Party would never have made it to Government.

[Minstrel Boy]

33. If you knew Canadian history, you would know otherwise.

"Getting into power" is not what it's all about in a multi-party parliament. It's about levering what power you have to influence legislation, which can be considerable in a minority government. Without the federal NDP, the history of Canadian healthcare, social programs and public investment in the economy would be very different.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

34. Consider the 1921 Federal Election where the Conservatives came third.

Liberal - 116
Progressive - 64
Conservatives - 50

That's a pretty good example of a third party greatly influencing Parliamentary Democracy.

[Frederic Bastiat]

36. That's a sick joke right?

Layton has been attacking Martin instead of Harper for MONTHS and getting nowhere in the polls in the process. Are you surprised that Canadians would rather choose Harper than Layton??

Way to go Jack!

[Screaming Lord Byron]

37. Martin's a pitiful campaigner and Earnscliffe are pitiful strategists.

Of course, how dare one party criticise another. What were they thinking?

[Minstrel Boy]

38. sounds like somebody's getting under somebody's skin

An opposition leader actually focusing his attack on the Prime Minister? How bizarre.

To say Layton has gotten "nowhere in the polls" means you haven't been paying attention to them. He has nearly tripled the NDP popular vote over 2000, and the party is now just a dozen points back of the Liberals.

Don't look over your shoulder. Just keep running as fast as you can. :evilgrin:

[Frederic Bastiat]

43. Layton and NDP have been stuck at 17% forever

With zero progress in Quebec. WTF are you talking about?

[Minstrel Boy]

44. I'm talking about this:

http://www.sesresearch.com/election/SES%20CPAC%20June%2016E.pdf

Since June 8, the Conservatives have dropped four, and the NDP have risen four, and stand at 19%.

[Frederic Bastiat]

45. Two things

1. Well within margin of error.

2. You're not assuming the decline for the Conservatives is related to the increase for the NDP right?

[Minstrel Boy]

46. about those things

1. Well within margin of error.

Undoubtedly we're seeing relative consistency to the data from all major polsters - NDP high teens to low 20s, PCs and Liberals low 30s - though each polster has its quirk. Ipsos Reid, for instance, reports wildly inflated Green numbers, likely because they present the Greens as an option to those polled. I have no doubt at least half of Ipsos' Green voters will wind up in the NDP camp on the 28th.

2. You're not assuming the decline for the Conservatives is related to the increase for the NDP right?

Clearly, yes. Because it's an anti-Liberal vote, not a right-wing vote. Swing voters are making up their mind, and they're not driven by ideology. In '93, the NDP vote in BC swung to Reform, because it was seen as a populist protest movement. Today, much Alliance support in BC is returning to the NDP.

[3trievers]

11. minority gov't

Likely Liberal minority.

[Markus182]

12. I resent that remark

We have a thriving multiparty system in Canada. A vote for the NDP is not a vote for the Conservatives, the way that Americans equate a vote for Nader as a vote for Bush. The Liberals are in trouble thanks to themselves and themselves alone. Please don't try transposing your political system onto Canadian politics, because there are enough differences that it's worth learning them.

[tameszu]

28. Depends completely on the riding and the circumstances

In this election, with Layton SPECIFICALLY targeting much more fire at Martin than at Harper, then anyone who's living in most ridings in Ontario (with certain exceptions) or the Atlantic provinces who votes NDP is definitely giving a vote to the Conservatives.

[Minstrel Boy]

35. I'm sorry, but this

is bullshit.

The latest tracking polls place the NDP a dozen points back of the Liberals. Over the past week, the Conservatives have dropped four points, while the NDP has risen four. If the Liberals falter badly this week because of Martin's debate performance, it's possible they could win fewer seats than the NDP.

The Liberals do not have a divine right to rule, and they are not the party of the Canadian Left.

We do not live with your depressing choice of the lesser-of-two-evils.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

14. WTF??

What are you talking about?
Thank the Liberals for screwing up so often. Thank Harper for running such a good campaign.

Blaming Layton is an extreme extension of Democrats blaming Nader for Bush being in power.

[3trievers]

6. one at a time boys!!

Probably vote NDP because I always vote my conscience but Jack annoyed me at times with his constantly trying to speak over his opponents.Reminded me of typical hardball segment with Jack playing the role of tweety.I guess he was trying to toughen his "nice guy" image.His retort to Martins'wisecrack about handlers was dramatic.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

8. Welcome to DU, 3trievers.

[3trievers]

13. with a deep bow he says

Thank-you my lord.

[Minstrel Boy]

10. It was important for the NDP that this not be the Paul and Stephen show.

Our last two leaders tended to get lost in the shuffle. So, while speaking over others may not have been the most gracious behaviour, he wasn't the only guilty party. And if it meant the difference between getting a soundbite or not, I'm glad he did.

[Canuckistanian]

40. Welcome to DU, 3trievers!

We're practically neighbours!
And I agree with you about Jack. I'd like to see a more orderly debate, it was hard to follow his points when he was always talking over the others.

[Markus182]

17. Personally I liked Duceppe the best

The only issue of the night on which I disagreed with Duceppe is the separatist movement. He seems to have a very good head on his shoulders when it comes to economics and social issues. He also came off as the most professional out of the candidates.

Layton was a little bit pushy, but unfortunately that's what you have to do when the debate is going to naturally shift to the Conservatives and Liberals, since one of them is likely to be the winner of the election. It was either come off pushy or sit on the sidelines. So I think he did a good job; he certainly did nothing to disuade me from voting NDP, and I hope that he may have gained a few converts.

[daleo]

22. I didn't think there was a clear winner myself

- Martin looked shaky when he was being cross examined by the others, but not bad when he was doing his own speechifying. When being attacked he seemed like he wasn't prepared, like the leader of the natural governing party shouldn't have to go through this. I thought Martin's closing comments were good though, and in general he improved as the night wore on.

- Harper managed to look tolerably prime ministerial, overall, but when being pressed on the social issues and the deficit possibility from his tax cuts he did seem like someone who had a hidden agenda. It is just hard to tell whether he is hiding his real social agenda from the social conservatives or from the majority of more socially liberal Canadians. His helmet head hair was a lot better tonight.

- Layton did a good job of bringing out the NDP policy and reminding people that they were a legitimate choice. He also did a good job of being in the game, and getting the air time. He might have come off a bit smug, though, or preachy as the NDP sometimes seems to people who aren't its regular constituency. His closing statement was good, too.

- Doucette surprised me. He seemed the most "comfortable in his own skin", as they say, even though English is not his first language. He had a bit of the Trudeau or Levesque ability to look at ease under pressure - not the image I had from the press. Of course, he had the easiest job in some ways, as he knew he only had to criticize the others, and didn't have to worry about defending a record of any type.

God knows what the morning papers will say. I have a hunch they will be gushing about Harper though, as he is the corporate candidate, and that preference always seems to come out eventually in the corporate media.

[Lautremont]

32. The local paper here did just that,

practically deifying Harper for not spontaneously growing a Hitler mustache right there at the podium. This is the same paper who recently declared Layton a "Jekyll and Hyde candidate" - he'll strike a series of reasonable poses on a variety of issues and then mutate into a demon creature by opining that maybe taxing the rich a little bit more isn't such a bad idea.

They also keep running the same bad picture of my local NDP candidate, who is actually the most photogenic of the bunch by far.