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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 01:46 PM
Original message
Gore Accuses Bush of Lying About Saddam/Al Qaeda Tie
Gore Accuses Bush of Lying About Saddam/Al Qaeda Tie

(CNSNews.com) - Former Vice President Al Gore in a speech before an audience at Georgetown University Law Center Thursday accused President Bush of lying about Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda being in cahoots in plotting the Sept. 11 attacks.

"Give 'Em Hell" Al

http://www.cnsnews.com//ThisHour.asp
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GainesT1958 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hmmm...maybe this go-round...
Al's happy serving as Kerry's unofficial "attack dog"!:eyes:

All I can say is: "BITE 'em Al--BITE DOWN ON 'EM!!!":D

:kick:

B-)
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Tight_rope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
31. That's right the repukes can't do shit to Gore...!
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Keep it coming, Al Gore! n/t
.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. It is sooooo nice to see the word "LYING" and "LIE" in a news...
article! I hope it is only the first of more to come.
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Yea. I'm tired of "mis-led" or "mis-represented" or "exaggerated"
The President lied like a dog and everyone knows it.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. If you read the text of his speech he uses the word lie or lying 5 times
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. hell yes! F*ck the "false impressions", they are LIES!!!
:toast:

go Al!!

:bounce:
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jukes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. i think the bush camp
Edited on Thu Jun-24-04 02:04 PM by jukes
eft/up when they characterized gore a wimp in the last election (the 1 gore won).


they've called down the thunder, neh?
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Kimber Scott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
6. Anger management?
Edited on Thu Jun-24-04 02:14 PM by Kimber Scott
These guys get lower and lower, don't they? I think they've studied "Mein Kampf" relentlessly.

"You're crazy!"

"No, I'm not."

"Yes you are! You're simply in denial. Denial is a classic symptom of insanity. Now, go sit and be quiet. Everybody... nothing to see here. Move on. Move on."

Or, on another note:

"You have weapons of mass destruction."

"No, I don't."

"Show us where they are not."

"How can I?"

"See. Now, we will blow you up."

(edited for punctuation error)
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recidivist Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. Gore is doing more harm than good with this kind of stuff.
Edited on Thu Jun-24-04 04:55 PM by recidivist
At the risk of going against the grain of the board, let me point out to those who haven't been paying attention that Bush never claimed Saddam was implicated in 911. Every time Gore or anyone else repeats this allegation, they are walking right into the RNC debunking machine, which is by now primed and ready on this question. Bush didn't say it. The lie is to say he did. Gore damages himself -- and more importantly, he damages Kerry -- with this kind of easily refuted accusation.

Bush DID say that Saddam had contacts with al Qaeda, which is a much more limited claim, and perfectly true. The Clinton-Gore crowd said as much in its time, and the 911 commission reiterated that fact. It is not a "lie" merely to mention Saddam and al Qaeda in the same phrase. Both are/were parts of the terror network. That doesn't mean they cooperated on 911, but it does mean they were two heads of the hydra.

This raises an important point. Gore may think it's a "cynical ploy" to make the Saddam-al Qaeda linkage, but that's not the same thing as a lie. On the contrary, it leads to a debate worth having. Gore is arguing implicitly for the law enforcement approach to 911, according to which we would not look beyond the narrow question of operational involvement in that single event. Bush's position is that the terrorist network should be seen as a whole regardless of the narrow issue of whose fingerprints are on which bomb. That's a serious position, whether you agree or not.

If Gore wants to disagree with Bush on Iraq and the war on terror, that is his prerogative. He can surely find reasons to do so without strawman tirades. This makes him look rather silly, or worse.
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AlGore-08.com Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You do know the 9/11 Commission found no link between Iraq & al-Qaeda?
And that there was no meaningful relationship between Iraq & al-Qaeda?

And if you bother to read Gore's speech, you'll see that he's as careful in his accusations as you think he should be:

http://www.algoredemocrats.com/news/gnn/EpllEpAluZQjrdFGci.shtml

A little over a year ago, when we launched the war against this second country, Iraq, President Bush repeatedly gave our people the clear impression that Iraq was an ally and partner to the terrorist group that attacked us, al-Qaida, and not only provided a geographic base for them but was also close to providing them weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear bombs. But now the extensive independent investigation by the bipartisan commission formed to study the 9/11 attacks has just reported that there was no meaningful relationship between Iraq and al-Qaida of any kind. And, of course, over the course of this past year we had previously found out that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. So now, the president and the vice president are arguing with this commission, and they are insisting that the commission is wrong and they are right, and that there actually was a working cooperation between Iraq and al-Qaida.

(snip)

Among these Americans who still believe there is a linkage, there remains very strong support for the president's decision to invade Iraq. But among those who accept the commission's detailed finding that there is no connection, support for the war in Iraq dries up pretty quickly.

And that's understandable, because if Iraq had nothing to do with the attack or the organization that attacked us, then that means the president took us to war when he didn't have to. Almost 900 of our soldiers have been killed, and almost 5,000 have been wounded.

Thus, for all these reasons, President Bush and Vice President Cheney have decided to fight to the rhetorical death over whether or not there's a meaningful connection between Iraq and al-Qaida. They think that if they lose that argument and people see the truth, then they'll not only lose support for the controversial decision to go to war, but also lose some of the new power they've picked up from the Congress and the courts, and face harsh political consequences at the hands of the American people. As a result, President Bush is now intentionally misleading the American people by continuing to aggressively and brazenly assert a linkage between al-Qaida and Saddam Hussein.

If he is not lying, if they genuinely believe that, that makes them unfit in battle with al-Qaida. If they believe these flimsy scraps, then who would want them in charge? Are they too dishonest or too gullible? Take your pick.

(snip)

They have such an overwhelming political interest in sustaining the belief in the minds of the American people that Hussein was in partnership with bin Laden that they dare not admit the truth lest they look like complete fools for launching our country into a reckless, discretionary war against a nation that posed no immediate threat to us whatsoever. But the damage they have done to our country is not limited to misallocation of military economic political resources. Whenever a chief executive spends prodigious amounts of energy convincing people of lies, he damages the fabric of democracy, and the belief in the fundamental integrity of our self-government.

That creates a need for control over the flood of bad news, bad policies and bad decisions also explains their striking attempts to control news coverage.

To take the most recent example, Vice President Cheney was clearly ready to do battle with the news media when he went on CNBC earlier this week to attack news coverage of the 9/11 commission's conclusion that Iraq did not work with al-Qaida. He lashed out at the New York Times for having the nerve to print a headline saying the 9/11 commission "finds no Qaeda-Iraq Tie" -- a clear statement of the obvious -- and said there is no "fundamental split here now between what the president said and what the commission said." He tried to deny that he had personally been responsible for helping to create the false impression of linkage between al-Qaida and Iraq.

Ironically, his interview ended up being fodder for "The Daily Show With Jon Stewart." Stewart played Cheney's outright denial that he had ever said that representatives of al-Qaida and Iraqi intelligence met in Prague. Then Stewart froze Cheney's image and played the exact video clip in which Cheney had indeed directly claimed linkage between the two, catching him on videotape in a lie.



F.Y.I. here's a blast from the past to show you what Gore is talking about:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/Iraqpolitics020926.html

From 9/26/2002

Making the Case
White House Says it Has Evidence of Iraq-Al Qaeda Ties

W A S H I N G T O N, Sept. 26 — The United States has long charged Saddam Hussein with supporting terrorism, but the Bush administration is now alleging something new — what one official called a "current, symbiotic relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda.

President Bush appeared in the Rose Garden today with members of Congress who support him on Iraq and accused Iraqi President Saddam Hussein of essentially the same crime he charged the Taliban with: harboring al Qaeda terrorists.

"The regime has long-standing and continuing ties to terrorist organizations. And there are al Qaeda terrorists inside Iraq," he said.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said "Iraq and al Qaeda have discussed safe haven opportunities in Iraq, reciprocal nonaggression discussions."

And, he added, al Qaeda is looking for specific assistance from Baghdad.

"We have what we consider to be credible evidence that al Qaeda leaders have sought contacts in Iraq who could help them acquire weapons of mass destruction capabilities," Rumsfeld said.

(more... )
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recidivist Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I can parse words too.
According to the excerpt from Gore's speech which you are kind enough to reprint, Gore is hinging his case on the assertion that the connections between al Qaeda and Saddam were not "meaningful."

In other words, the connections existed, but Gore chooses not to regard them as significant. That can be debated. But if that is indeed his position, he should not characterize as a "lie" Bush's statement that there is indeed a linkage.

The issue is not whether the contacts existed. They did. The issue is whether they were a sufficient justification for war. That is a rather different argument.
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AlGore-08.com Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Did you read the entire speech?
It's pretty pointless to argue about what Gore said unless you have - - Gore lays out his case very logically.

Whether Smirk flat out lied or simply misled or is just too stupid to know the difference between a single meeting that accomplishes nothing and a NATO type alliance is not the main point of Gore's speech. The main point is that our democracy is threatened by the way Team Smirk is conducting his pResidency - - that he is using 9/11 and the war with Iraq to justify unconstitutional actions. The Congress and the Courts are enabling him, rather than fulfilling their Constitutional duties to serve as checks and balances to the power of the Executive. (And the media is not functioning as a watchdog either.)

Gore's main point is summed up in his last paragraph and it's pretty clear:
In these circumstances, we need investigation of the facts under oath, and in the face of penalties for evasion and perjury. We need investigation by an aroused Congress whose bipartisan members know they stand before the judgment of history. We cannot depend upon a debased Department of Justice given over to the hands of zealots. "Congressional oversight" and "special prosecution" are words that should hang in the air. If our honor as a nation is to be restored, it is not by allowing the mighty to shield themselves by bringing the law to bear against their pawns: it is by bringing the law to bear against the mighty themselves. Our dignity and honor as a nation never came from our perfection as a society or as a people: it came from the belief that in the end, this was a country which would pursue justice as the compass pursues the pole: that although we might deviate, we would return and find our path. This is what we must now do.

BTW I'm not sure from your post whether you contend that there was enough of a "link" between Saddam and al-Qaeda to justify invading Iraq, or you're complaining about the way Gore formed his argument. If it's the former, please elaborate on what the "link" between Saddam & al-Qaeda is.
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Samantha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. It's not too difficult to twist the literal truth into a shape
resembling a blatant lie.

A good example of this is Cheney's often-repeated reference to terrorist training camps inside Iraq. The terrorist training camp was located in the North under the auspices of the Kurds. This area was not under Saddam's control. These last two facts are never mentioned when Cheney utters his literal truth. One might consider that lying by omission.

Either way, this cabal is deceptive to the point they simply cannot believed regardless of the subject matter.

And please remember, Cheney (as well as Bush*) is from Texas. Lying for politicians in Texas is not a sin, it's an art. Politicians who do not lie well are not good politicians, Christian or not. Perhaps by November more and more Americans will realize both Bush* and Cheney are not only lousy politicians but pathetic liars as well.
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recidivist Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
27. I read the speech.
I am pressed for time, but allow me a couple of quick observations as to the way Gore chose to frame his case.

First, much of the speech is a rather superficial discussion of the war powers issue. There is, as you know, a long and quite tangled record on this subject running back at least to Woodrow Wilson. Gore's discussion would be much more persuasive if he had bothered to at least reference this history of presidential warmaking, including Bill & Al's most excellent adventures during the 1990's. Bush at least got congressional approval for his actions (including the vote of -- well, you know who), which is more than most recent presidents have bothered with. The notion that Bush has gone flying off into constitutionally uncharted waters in Iraq does not bear scrutiny. Whether or not the Iraq war will prove to have been a mistake (something we won't know for years), Congress voted for it.

Secondly, Gore is concerned in this speech to minimize the indictment of Saddam in order to maximize his indictment of Bush. You may agree with that, but it is odd to hear this from Al. Saddam's Iraq has been listed as a terrorist supporting state ever since that list was first developed (the 1970's?). The Clinton-Gore team endorsed that finding, maintained the embargo against Iraq, maintained the no-fly zones, lobbed cruise missles and bombed on occasion (without congressional or UN approval), and fulminated regularly about Saddam's WMDs. But all that has apparently been popped down Gore's memory hole to clear the way for his Message of the Day, which is that BUSH LIED. Since Gore, until recently, said more-or-less the same things Bush continues to say, this does not ring true. To reduce the whole issue to the narrow question of whether Saddam and al Qaeda cooperated on 911 is, as I said before, to set up a straw man. The case for taking out Saddam rests on broader grounds.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. "Saddam's Iraq has been listed as a terrorist supporting state ...
... ever since that list was first developed (the 1970's?)."

Not quite true. The Reagan administration pulled Iraq off the list when they wanted SH to fight Iran for them.

And, more recently, the 9/11 Commission seems to have said there was no real evidence that SH was reponsible for ANY terrorist attacks.

"To reduce the whole issue to the narrow question of whether Saddam and al Qaeda cooperated on 911 is, as I said before, to set up a straw man." Well, there's a game that Bush started and seems to have lost; and having tried to recast the accusations more generally as SH and AQ being somehow in cahoots, Bush seems also to have failed to make the more general case.
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FredScuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Oh, and "we" wouldn't want Gore to look silly, would "we"???
:eyes:

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recidivist Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #10
30. Well , the Bush campaign is testing the proposition right now.
There are a couple of other threads running about the new "Kerry's Coalition of the Wild Eyed" video that went up this morning at georgewbush.com, so we don't need to debate the ad here.

I will just note that these ads don't go up on a whim. They've been focus grouped and polled. Obviously the Bushies think angry rants by Democrats work in their favor. They are quite content to let Al Gore play a starring role in this. Remember: the primary targets of the campaigns are undecided voters. What do you think the average undecided voter wants to see and hear: Bush with a smiling face and reassuring message, or shouting, sweating tirades about how evil the opposition is?

When you find your opponent making ads out of your own speeches, maybe you need to think again. Just a thought.
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FredScuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. "Shouting, sweating tirades"?
How's the coffee in the Faux News break room?
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mccormack98 Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Disagree
There are different ways to lie. And I think if we take a careful, measured look at the evidence, I think a pretty compelling case can be made that Bush is a large, obese falsehood sayer who has been expressing falsehoods through his copulatory teeth over the last 3 and 1/2 years.

Gore just called him on it.

The Dems needs fire to rally the base. Gore understands that. Calling Bush a liar helps set the stage for a full blown, knock down fight. And this will turn out the vote.

Bill

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. On the planet I live on, Bush "spokespeople" were making that connection..
Edited on Thu Jun-24-04 05:55 PM by Dr Fate
...of Saddam/9-11 on a nearly nightly basis.

Gore, ans well as the average American knows that prominent Republicans & Bush spokespeople were making that connection nearly every night on TV.

It's no wonder that up to 70% of the public believes in the connection- they saw it on Fux news & CNN every night.

I dont know what you are selling, trying to say Bush never said it, but Dr. Fate aint buying.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. you need to read the whole text of his speech
You have missed the point.


Even if you were not wrong what possible damage could it do? Someone needs to make the truth clear. The fucking DLC assholes aren't doing shit and Kerry is benefiting everytime Gore or Dean speak up.

Frankly I am disgusted that rather than re-electing Gore, I have to vote for Kerry...... in part because Kerry and the rest of the senate were busy making chairmanship commitee deals while Gore was fighting almost single handedly to have the votes counted. Do you have any idea how many DLC tools told him to quit? Someone needs to speak the truth not the wimpy assed apologetic nuanced bullshit the democratic party has been practicing since the 1980s.
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mccormack98 Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. KICK!
Well said.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. Disagree. Gore doesn't look silly. And I have been paying attention.
"You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." - President George W. Bush, September 2002
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=57323

On March 21, 2003, the day after the war began, President Bush sent a letter to both houses of Congress laying out the legal backing and underpinning for his decision to go to war. In the letter's second paragraph, Bush wrote: "I have also determined that the use of armed force against Iraq is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=58182

You say SH and AQ "are/were parts of the terror network" and "they were two heads of the hydra." In fact, the 911 Commission seems to me to have said clearly that there is no credible evidence implicating SH in any terror acts.

My country killed a lot of people, and made a lot of enemies, based on a lie.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. GORE is your savior whether ya like it or not!!!
No one can hold a candle to this guy!!!

Hoot and holler GORE!!!
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. Read speech! Gore brilliant!
<snip>
... for all these reasons, President Bush and Vice President Cheney have decided to fight to the rhetorical death over whether or not there's a meaningful connection between Iraq and al-Qaida. They think that if they lose that argument and people see the truth, then they'll not only lose support for the controversial decision to go to war, but also lose some of the new power they've picked up from the Congress and the courts, and face harsh political consequences at the hands of the American people. As a result, President Bush is now intentionally misleading the American people by continuing to aggressively and brazenly assert a linkage between al-Qaida and Saddam Hussein.

If he is not lying, if they genuinely believe that, that makes them unfit in battle with al-Qaida. If they believe these flimsy scraps, then who would want them in charge? Are they too dishonest or too gullible? Take your pick.

But the truth is gradually emerging in spite of the president's determined dissembling. Listen, for example, to this editorial from the Financial Times: "There was nothing intrinsically absurd about the WMD fears, or ignoble about the opposition to Saddam's tyranny -- however late Washington developed this. The purported link between Baghdad and al-Qaida, by contrast, was never believed by anyone who knows Iraq and the region. It was and is nonsense."
<snip>
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
12. Hang it all out Al, shove it right up the selected prez's ass.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
14. The actual words "lie", "lied", "liar" & "lying" need to used, & often...
...looks like Gore may be starting the trend...
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
19. Bush is a liar!
The dems need to shout it from the rooftops. Way to go Al!
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lucky777 Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
20. Where's Kerry in all of this?
Wasn't Gore the guy that we thought was too staid and mechanical?
He looks like a firebrand next to Kerry. I don't think that hiding behind Gore is particularly flattering.
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Hmmmmmm...........Gore is FABULOUS!!!!!
LOL!!!!.....
Hope that didn't hurt ya feelings.
LOL!!!!
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recidivist Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
29. Kerry voted for the war.
He has to stand a bit clear of the line of fire.
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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 06:42 AM
Response to Original message
28. Also completely ignored by my
local rag.
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DFWJock Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-25-04 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
33. Gore rips Bush
I guess this must mean he hates America and loves Saddam.
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