Billions in salaries could flee Carolinas

[surfermaw]

THE RUSH OVERSEAS | THERE GO OUR COMPUTER JOBS


Billions in salaries could flee Carolinas

STELLA M. HOPKINS AND TED MELLNIK

Staff Writers


Billions in salaries could flee Carolinas

An Observer analysis estimates that 124,000 white-collar jobs

in N.C. and S.C. could vanish by 2015 because of outsourcing abroad The Carolinas, which have hemorrhaged textile jobs, could be facing even more costly losses as white-collar jobs move to India and other low-wage nations.

From 2000 through 2015, the Carolinas could lose 124,000 jobs, and more than $5 billion in wages, according to an Observer analysis of the most detailed offshoring job-loss estimate. That's almost as many jobs as were lost in the states' textile industry in the past decade. And the office jobs at risk often pay more, so their loss would be a tougher blow to the Carolinas economy.

Offshoring, or foreign outsourcing, is the newest front in the global wage battle that has long siphoned U.S. factory jobs. In theory, any work can be done time zones away -- by lower-paid workers -- if it doesn't require face-to-face interaction and can be shipped via the Internet or a phone line.


Much More

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/business/9023428.htm

[The Zanti Regent]

1. Nothing could be finer than to be unemployed in Carolina...

...well, they haven't exported burger flipping yet!

[Warpy]

2. I keep trying to tell folks that NC is a toss up

NC has been badly hurt by Bush's economic bungling, and people there are assigning the blame where it belongs.

Whether or not the eastern part of the state gets out enough of the vote to keep pissing off the Yankees by tossing the state to Bush is highly in question.

[supernova]

3. The natives are definitely restless

they know the gig is up. Even furniture-making is being shipped overseas. That's a huge activity in western NC.

[Gildor Inglorion]

4. What? Don't understand...

you can't possibly mean that WESTERN NC is Democratic? I grew up in the mountains of north Georgia, one county away from Cherokee County, NC (where the mad bomber Eric Rudolph hid out for years). I think the mountaineers in western NC are just as rabid Repukes as the hillbillies in north GA and estern TN. Maybe the current economic woes of NC and SC are God's punishment for all those years of Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmond. (Sorry - low blow, just couldn't resist. Neither of them is half the snake that ol' sorry-ass Zell Miller has turned out to be.)

[surfermaw]

20. Eastern part of the state is democrat, but some time vote with Rep.

I think that was what the poster was referring to.

[The Commie]

23. The Carolinas will stay red.

The GOP will use the old tactic of scarring them away from us "God-hatin', queer-lovin' Liberals. :grr:

[surfermaw]

29. Don't think so ..the state is going Blue this time...Edward's

Some will vote democrat, some will vote for Edwards and many of them will just stay home.

[CheshireCat]

28. Same here in SC

SC has also been hurt to the quick by outsources.

In the small town where I grew up, even the Bible thumpers who feel that it is their Christian duty to vote Republican are talking about voting for Kerry or staying home.

Could the Democrats take SC in the November election? I think they actually hae a chance. Maybe not a big one, but what happens between now and the election will be a deciding factor. SC will be closer than most informed people think.

This misAdministration would be foolish to take SC for granted. Folks here are hurting economically.

[surfermaw]

30. Something in N.C

They don't talk all that much , are really angry with Bush, even though they won't admit to it, some few do,some say Bush hasn't help the average guy, some say they aren't going to vote for Bush..most of them have voted as daddy did even when daddy has been in the grave for more than 50 years..but with hungry kids and without jobs and health care some of them are going to vote democratic. Most of the time they do elect a democratic governor.

[kayell]

45. I agree, there is a chance

People in this state are in PAIN. They have lost their jobs, they have lost their children to the war. They are disillusioned and disgusted and depressed. I think a decent campaign run on economic lines could stand a chance down here. Someone needs to point out to these people that the BFEE are the new carpetbaggers. Edwards is a good voice for people in this area - they listen to what he has to say, he speaks to their interests, and speaks their language.

[Carolina]

48. Oh, happy day

the economy and the turnouts for F9/11 here in Columbia and reported in Charleston could truly mean that W will have to fight (as in spend wads of $$$$) for this state. And possibly lose it. Oh how I hope and wish ...

[Tight_rope]

42. Veggie burgers are becoming popular...and Indians don't eat meat!

So it's just a matter of time before the Indians get to start flipping burgers.

[oneighty]

5. Ahhh. Pay back is tough.

It was not many years ago the Carolinas offered right to work laws, tax breaks and low wages to entice employers from northern union friendly states to relocate their businesses into the employer friendly states; North and South Carolina.

Now they suffer the same fate. What comes around goes around.

180

[TreasonousBastard]

6. Amen...

I don't like this at all, but nobody complained all that much when Paterson NJ, Utica, NY, and countless other cities in the Northeast were destroyed by the flight of employers to the sunny, and union-free, South.

Except for the people who lost those jobs.

In the end, JP Stevens and the rest of the crew will do what they can to make their money by destroying the lives and environments of ever cheaper labor around the world.

[madrchsod]

8. i`ll agree

for years that`s all we heard up here in the north-"we are moving our plant to the south-everything is so much cheaper and we won`t have those union problems"..i guess it`s just "fuck the american worker till we can find someone cheaper"

[xchrom]

7. if outsourcing is good for labour

then it's good for management.
mindless adherence to america's corporate gods will bring yet more of this.
jobs -- all kinds of jobs -- are a country's finest resource -- diversity of employment is the wealth of the future. outsourcing merely means selling the nation's future.

[Nlighten1]

9. I have a client who has a manufacturing facility in SC...

That is about to be shipped to Mexico or China. This globalization shit is for the birds my friends.

[surfermaw]

12. I think North Carolina is going Blue this time around

North Carolina is changing...Most of the people in North Carolina owned their land and gave to the next generation...land is about all gone..their children are having to hit the labor market to earn a living...These old people thought you would be punished if you supported a union..and still many do...but some are changing..They are not at all happy with Bush most are not saying any thing,but something new is some are and some some are saying they will vote for Edwards is he is on the ticket...If the state doesn't go democratic this time it might have to come to even worse conditions than this Bush administration...If Bush does win that will be the one good thing about his winning, the nation will then get as bad as it was under Harding, Coolidge and Hoover. Then the nation didn't elect another R/W Conservative Republican, until two generations died off then Reagan was elected.

I think with the entrance of John Reid Edwards,and many transfered Yankees, the state will turn around politically...I see some faint signs.Oh say a little more than faint.

[The Backlash Cometh]

10. OH, lord, help us save those white racists despite themselves.

You have to love the irony.

[Shopaholic]

11. They just don't get it. . .

There have been all sorts of textile and manufacturing closings in the part of South Carolina that I live in but these white, racist (and trust me, they are racist) conservative, right-wing, religious nut Repugs just don't get that the Republicans are not their friend. I guess they'd rather hold onto their narrow-minded, bigoted ways than hold onto their jobs!

[The Backlash Cometh]

16. No, they surely don't get it. And apparently,

neither do some DUers. If we're going to clean this mess up, we need to do it holistically.

[Ripley]

18. What the fuck does that mean?

Are you suggesting we nuke the south? After all they're ALL racists, right?

You must not be black, because there sure as hell are a lot of them down here. But let's nuke them too!

[The Backlash Cometh]

21. <sigh>

How did you get past 1000 posts? No, not by physical means, but by doing what the press has failed to do. i.e. educate the public to the vast discrepancies in our legal system. Show how this imbalance has created the mess we're in today. Do you think if these right-wing racists had a successful counter-balance to their prejudices that we would be where we are today? The left must provide a successful counter-balance to racism, if it ever hopes to unite the leftist base. By making our country fairer for everyone, and that means, for example, being as hard on white collar crime as they are on street crime, then we'll swing things back to kilter. Racism, unfortunately, is a uniting factor for whites in the South. Break that prejudice and people may begin to see more clearly and think logically.

[surfermaw]

31. You got it, both states just don't get the Rep.aren't for them

The just don't see the writing on the wall. It is hard to understand how they vote Republican, my husband tells them that every day of his life..they get angry,but I think a few may be thinking something isn't right and will vote democratic come fall...I think we are going blue...especially if Edwards is on the ticket, in fact I think it is just going to happen.

[Tight_rope]

44. Hold onto their narrow-minded, bigoted ways than hold onto their jobs!

You must be talking about Texas. Yes some have been awakens by the nasty shit stinch that's coming from out of that the horse that owns that ranch in Crawford, TX. But many still have their mouths open to continue swallowing mouths full of the horse shit that Bush is still feeding them.

I guess they haven't suffered enough. Maybe should take away their Lazy-boy chairs and beer. That would surely wake them up.

[rednek_Liberal]

54. Absolutely...

I was telling mrs rednek_Liberal that her mother( a blinded by the right republican)is not even in George's Base. She is neither a Have nor a Have-more... and she is too ignorant to even realize it. It's sad really

[surfermaw]

13. I beg your pardon..not all racists

[The Backlash Cometh]

17. Perhaps not all, but those who have been moving the state

to the right are the ones who are in power. Moderates and leftist have had little effect in those southern states.

[surfermaw]

22. Governors

Jim Hunt, a Democrat was governor of the state as long as he wonted to be..he ran against Helm's and was defeated. Helms used the same tricks on Hunt as they used on Clinton, ad's and ad's all day long stating Hunt was Gay. OH boy,was it a surprise when Edward's came out of no where to defeat Faircloth..Now a few of them are saying they will vote for Edward's if he is on the ticket... I think North Carolina is going democratic. At this time Bowles is leading in the polls.

[Ripley]

24. But you see we shouldn't encourage the emerging Dems

in the south. We should continue to promote attacks on white southerners. They are all racists. Let's ignore the facts that blacks have made huge inroads into state legislatures. Let's pretend k?

See, on DU it's okie dokie to stereotype and be a bigot when it comes to white southerners. But don't you dare criticize blacks in the south who voted for Trent Lott!

[The Backlash Cometh]

27. We are obviously reading different posts on DU.

The inroads are slow in the South, and yours is the first post in a long time which I've read in this forum which hasn't recognized the discrepancies in the criminal justice system, particularly in the South. Black representatives is a great start, but targeting the race through the criminal justice system derails many young black men before they've had a chance to decide what they want to do with their lives. Once the policies change, I'll stop harping on the subject. Until then, just put me on ignore. I'll try to get over the slight.

[surfermaw]

32. Again I am not a racist...

[The Backlash Cometh]

25. I would be most interested in seeing what a Democratic

South would be like in this century.

[The Backlash Cometh]

26. I would be most interested in seeing what a Democratic

South would be like in this century.

[supernova]

15. Flamebait

... *yawn*

[Tight_rope]

43. I for one love the irony!...Life's a bitch ain't it!

[kayell]

46. Amazingly enough, a lot of the out of work Carolinians will be brown

or black or not-racist whites or asian-americans or hispanics or ..... Just like any other state in the country, SC and NC are not homogenous. :eyes:

[bleedingheart]

14. The election is going to be about the WALLET not the WAR

because those families who can't feed their kids are going to look at the repuke controlled White House and Congress and say ..."Go Fuck yourself..."...

[swinney]

19. Fine one please inform me

One intelligent Man in North Carolina.

Trying to name Falls Lake after racist Hesse Jelms.

[supernova]

33. New Poll Results Posted in NC Forum

Thread Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=170x705

[Jane Eyre]

34. North Carolina is winnable - here's some info

In 1992, Bill Clinton's campaign targeted 13 swing states that they thought they could win. North Carolina was among them, and it was the only one of the 13 that the Democrats lost. It was, however, extremely close with Bush carrying the state by less than 1000 votes -that adds up to less than 10 votes per county.

It should be noted, however, that the Democratic Party won the governorship in 1992 and has held that office since then. We also have all but one of the council of state offices, which are elected statewide. Some offices, such as Commissioner of Agriculture and State Treasurer, have always been held by Democrats throughout the history of the state. And by the way, the state has one of the highest credit ratings in the country thanks to the long history of outstanding Democratic control of the treasury.

Since 1992, no presidential campaign has targeted North Carolina. Gore lost the state by 16 points in 2000. However, Gore lost NC's largest county, Mecklenburg (Charlotte), by only 3 points despite the fact that he avoided the state like the plague.

One of the things that the Clinton folks did that helped a lot was work on voter education. In Mecklenburg county, voters who push the straight party ticket must also vote separately for the presidential candidate of their choice. Most people don't know that unless they are told, so many straight-ticket Democratic votes are lost to the presidential candidate.

A couple of other demographic trends could help us go blue as well. There are a heck of a lot of Yankees moving down here, and being a Republican does not mean the same thing in the North as it does in the South. The state also has one of the fastest-growing Latino populations in the country, most of whom vote Democratic. And don't forget the military vote this time - do you really think that the soldiers at Fort Bragg are going to vote for Bush after he cut their benefits and kept them away from their families for extended periods of time? Then there are the laid-off textile workers and the pissed-off tobacco farmers who want their buy-out.

And then there is John Edwards. If Edwards is on the ticket - and I think that he will be - this state will be the mother of all battleground states. Still not a 100% sure thing, and there are so-called swing states that are easier pickings for our side, but the Dems could win this state if they wanted to badly enough.

[Ripley]

35. Great post.

Thanks for your perspective. Most of my family lives in NC and I'm hearing the same thing. Kerry is a fool to ignore the south and especially NC. My parents keep saying "But who is John Kerry? We don't know anything about him." They're old and don't read a lot of political things, but they have a point. Kerry needs to go there in person.

[Jane Eyre]

36. Thanks

I do think that Edwards is going to get the nod, which means that the state will be targeted. If I'm wrong and it is not Edwards, I don't think that we will see the presidential campaign here at all. There are states such as Ohio, Pennsylvania, Louisiana and Florida that are more easily winnable swing states.

There was an author I was on Bill Moyers' "Now" who was discussing the reasons that the Democrats must not write off the South. The best reason is that forcing the Republicans to fight for the Southern states means that they will find it harder to pretend to be moderates. In other words, the Republicans will have to appeal to their base Southern voters such as the Jessecrats and the religious right if they are battling for southern votes. That may play well in certain rural Southern enclaves, but it hurts them nationwide. It also hurts them in progressive Southern areas.

I'm buying popcorn futures, and waiting for the big show to come to town in July!!! :-)

[surfermaw]

51. Kerry isn't ignoring any state

he is just waiting for John Edwards to take care of NOrth Carolina..Edwards is going to paint North Carolina Blue, Erskin Bowles is already running ahead of Burr, who has had big dollars put in hi s campaign by Bush and Cheney.

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. Just a comment about those Republicans from oop North.

The Florida natives don't seem to have much trust in them because they're the ones who have helped change the development patterns in this state for the worst. Actually, it was a combination of northerners and Georgian good ole boy politics which seems to have done the trick. Georgian construction and community development methods are legendary. Though, Florida is quickly catching up. Here's just a taste:

The Florida Republican controlled legislature decided to clean up our "complicated" regulations by eliminating duplications in the law. Well, they did pass a law that did away with many "unnecessary" duplications. However, in the process of eliminating large segments, they also eliminated clarifications of the previous legislature's intent. One of the things they eliminated was the clarification of what qualifies as recreational lands. It wasn't long before developer-lawyers and sleazy politicians, helped by northern transients who saw Florida as an unclaimed wilderness and Deep South good ole boy know-how and right-wing support for property rights, before the lines between recreational land and wet lands became one and the same. Florida, is a state which needs its wetlands. But this is something that only real Floridians seem to understand. Northerners and deep southerners seem to be disrespectful about this fact about our state and what do they care, since many of them are transients anyway.

Now, let's go back to recreational lands. In the infinite wisdom of our Republican leaders they determined that if the population wanted quality recreational lands, they would pay for them so the state government didn't include any real enforceable legislation to require local governments to put aside special allotments for quality land. If the public wanted quality land, the new legislature figured the voters would somehow get involved and vote for them and the tax increase that would follow. True to some extent, but the public has paid dearly because, from what I've seen, the public doesn't realize that the recreational lands have not been provided, until the local area is almost completely developed. By then, the property prices are so high, that they reluctantly have to vote in for some very pricey practice fields.

Now, let's go back to your Northerners. Those Northerners are primarily retirees in Florida. They don't want to pay for recreational lands that they will never use. They left their family behind oop North and when their family comes down to visit in Florida, they'll go recreate in an entertainment park. Retirees just want manicured lawns and subdivisions, be it on private golf course property or private well-kept pricey yards. They have no special understanding of the Florida wetlands or scrub life. So they develop and develop until the local governments are forced to keep out local people who walked through those wetlands to get to fishing areas. (It's happening in Oviedo, Florida -- Feeney's old turf -- look it up. Feeney, btw, is a transplant. He's only a ten year old Floridian who came down and decided to do things his own way. I suggest you keep an eye on him, because he's a Tom Delay waiting to happen.)

So, don't put too much hope in the Northerners. At least, minorities shouldn't because many of the prejudices that white southerners have are shared by northerners. It's their one common denominator. And if, perchance, you do have those who are not prejudice, they still have to blend in so I don't expect them to be vocal about minority rights when they have to fight for scarce jobs. What happens, or has been happening, is that they go the road of least resistance and just amplify what is already there.

[KoKo]

39. Excellent post "Backlash." I've watched this going on in "Coastal SC" and

even here in "Triangle," NC. I'm a Southerner who lived most of my life in NorthEast and then came back because of job reasons recently. You are correct with the "Good Old Boy" developers in league with the Northeast Repugs. It wasn't until strict zoning came in that the Northeast managed to save anything and by then we had inner city problems which spread to the suburbs and high taxes to pay for the ruin the "developers" had done in the Northeast. In the 80's the money interests hooked up with the "Good Ole Boys" and started the rape of the SC Lowcountry and the Georgia Sea Islands. Buying up land building "so called environmentally friendly" gated communities and the retirees and second home owners came in droves. Mostly Repugs who thought they were "lords of the manor" because they could live so cheaply in the South and build homes no one could have afforded in the Northeast because of taxes for schools and services were so high.

Anyway the Real Estate Interests and Construction came together and contributed to the big Southern Boom. Florida, too. I just hate to think of what happens when the blight of the North comes to the South if we hit the bad economic times that some of us think are coming.

It's very sad to see the "rape of the land of the South" for profit, but it was going to happen, nothing could have stopped it. As a Southerner/Yankee....seeing both sides, it's really hard to deal with.

But, it's what it is. I don't know politically because my experience with Coastal SC is that what was once heavily Democratic has been infiltrated by Northern high rollers who are the same as the Bushies.

We have family property on one of the Resort Islands, so I've seen this first hand. These folks love to talk Envirnomental Preservation (Golf Courses) out of one side of their mouth while screaming about taxes for schools (no tax increases) out of the other. It's complicated and not all transplants have those warped ideas and some are even fighting back to preserve land once they move there, but the majority are still high roller Repugs.

I could write a book about it...I'm sure you could also.

[The Backlash Cometh]

40. It's ripe for an investigative reporter to ply his trade.

Thank you for your post. Though I know there are people who have seen this first hand, few will talk about it openly and honestly. For a long time now, I've felt like the lone, crazy lady on the mountain. When I first uncovered these liaisons I acted with anger and indignation at the authority figures who should have known better. Then I turned my anger at my peers, who either knew, but supported the good ole boys because those good ole boys could override the process and get things done; or because they decided it was too complicated to understand or too expensive for us little Davids to afford to fight legally. Many who I thought could understand the problem simply moved away when I explained the situation to them. And I look back now and realize that those who were true Floridian activists and more capable than me, have also moved away. I will one day move away too. I'm tired of living around dishonest people.

[KoKo]

41. Agree. Loose Regulation in the South also contributed to all of it. Our

property has been a nightmare because of SC Courts who favor the Developer/Real Estate/Lawyers over the common person. It goes back to after the war where the people didn't trust the Federal Government for anything, hated laws wanted to be free. In the meantime the special interests took the common person for whatever they could because the average person looked the other way not wanted to get involved with making laws but not knowing laws were already being made which took away their rights.

The immigrant population in the Northeast got very active made lots of laws and fought for their rights. In the South folks were just content to have their property and no interference. It backfired on them. But, many Southerners have become very wealthy by selling their farms and inherited land to the big devlopers. They are content with this. So, it's very hard to get them to make any rules to restrict development activities. Sort of a "win/win" situation. Until one sees the results of the rape of the land and the restriction of the water and prime property to those who can afford the "gates and the golf courses" and all that goes with it.

And, you're correct. You can't get Southerners to talk about it. No one wants to talk about it, because they think their lifestyle is so much better than when they grew up. Big Homes, lots of shopping now.
Who cares about the schools, environment or social services when life is so good that everyone wants to move there to retire.

sad.

[Tight_rope]

49. HOLY SHIT!...You've just giving me all the insight...step by step

that's going to happen here in Texas. Especially in the urban cities suburban areas like Houston, Dallas, San Antonio and so forth. I live in Houston and boy have "Good Old Boy" developers in league with the Northeast Repugs been going full-force down here. It's been a breeze for them because Houston has no zone restriction. Build what you want, where you want and how you want all over Houston. Of course no one to stand in their way, especially when you got "The Hammer" (Tom DeLay) on your side. And least we forget that this is Bush country. OH! We know that Dubya takes pride in destroying things that are under his control. That Fucker is a miserable failure.

[The Backlash Cometh]

53. You have a tougher row to hoe if you're from Texas.

I'm surprised that these practices aren't already infesting Texas because property rights is the Trojan Horse. Developer-lawyers. who are often Libertarians, will appeal to the common folk by claiming that they're fighting for the individual homeowner's property rights. For example, they'll provide free legal representation to a common homeowner who has a problem developing on his property because of a wetland designation. Because he's an individual homeowner, the jury will side with him over the big bad water management district. Once a developer-lawyer helps to win such a case, he has case precedent which he can then use to shove a huge commercial development, down the throat of local government.

At least this was the property-rights, fanatic's plan years ago when I finally got so sick of community activism I had to step out because it would have consumed me, and I had small children to raise. It was a hopeless crusade for a layman like me. I realized that if I could see it clearly, then those at the top could see it too; and if they weren't doing anything to stop them, then maybe it was because they were part of the problem.

[Tight_rope]

55. What would you say if I told you that they moved a black cemetery to build

some I rised condos. These people are despicable. Just chopping down trees to build all kinds of trashy homes that the average smart individual would not buy. Of course you have your gated communities that your average family of 4 can't afford, but that's ok because it right next to a sewage plant where you can't even sit in your back your because it messes so bad. And let's not forget all of those golf course communities that once again only the rich can afford to live there. We now call Houston, Concert city.

I swear, this country is going straight to hell!

[The Backlash Cometh]

56. A word to the wise.

If you are looking for property in good-ole-boy Landia, and there is a strong property rights contingency in control of the local government, keep in mind that it means that private communities can be built with features that are of lower quality and totally unacceptable for public use standards. They'll never say that the private property standards are lower. What they'll say is that it is private property and the engineering plans meet minimum standards. I believe Florida just rectified this loophole in the law by now making standards even for everyone. Which means that you have some ritzy subdivisions out there which were built at a time of lower standards and which have common ground features which will create homeowner maintenance headaches for their residents.

[surfermaw]

50. You are right., some have given up on the state, when a little more work

would have won the state...Not only democrats, Gerald Ford gave up on North Carolina in a primary, when I think just a little more would have won him the state.

[loudsue]

37. N. Carolina doesn't need Edwards on the ticket to swing Blue.....

You have to understand the VERY CONSERVATIVE nature of the culture in the South, to see that folks are "claiming" the Edwards card might switch their votes, because it gives them an "excuse" to move to the Dem side of the aisle. Like it can't be all bad, 'cause "he's OUR boy".... he's one of us.

It's a cultural phenomenon here to try to "appear" traditional, and conservative, and most of all, religious, regardless of your true feelings. (Hence, all the closet alcohol-drinking, former boot-legging, Baptists.) And politics and religion have become inseparable, due to the abortion issue. It's like, if you don't "say" you're voting republican, then you surely believe in "killing babies", and all things evil.

The truth is, even if Edwards is NOT on the ticket, the people who have been supporting the Edwards factor, are likely going to vote Dem anyway, whether he's on the ticket or not. It just gives folks a "polite" way to move the conversation closer to the "Dem is O.K." scenario, without taking too much heat. Edwards name-dropping is giving people an EXCUSE....and unfortunately, they need an excuse in social circles to support Dems, thanks to republicans indoctrinating the preachers and churches.

Kerry needs to find a way to break into that cultural closed-circuit in such a way that it will be "acceptable", traditional, and socially safe for the people to support him more openly. John Edwards, whether he's on the ticket or not, can certainly help. But Kerry would do well to SHOW UP, and speak politely and specifically, using terms like "supporting the farmers", "providing health care", "helping education", and using words like "traditional Southern Democratic values".

Even though many farmers are NOT on the land any longer, most multi-generational North Carolinians have come from families that have ties to the farms....and families here have memories like elephants; they never forget....roots are sacred here.

Textiles are as much a key to the traditions as farms, and Kerry can go a long way by showing an understanding of what the textile families have been through.

Bush has made a fool of himself with the war in Iraq fiasco. North Carolinians can see foolishness from a thousand miles away. Kerry can capitalize on that, NOT by blatantly saying bush is a fool (that's not "polite" to North Carolinians), but by very subtly saying "we've seen quite a bit of foolishness....", and the same holds true with the economy/jobs and education.

Around here, it's often about how you wrap the present, that determines whether you want to see what's inside the box...the "appearance" of propriety goes a long way. A little subtlety hits hard here, where as a blatant statement looks too rough (hence why they put down the way "Yankees" talk). Southerners like subtlety. They like tradition. And they like men who act like gentlemen, without acting stuffy or arrogant.

Kerry could have it hands down over bush if he'd focus on his audience here. And I agree with a poster above who said Clark would do well here. Clark has "gentleman" written all over him. A lot of North Carolinians (myself included) don't care that much for Edwards, because he's too power-hungry and thinks "paying his dues" is not necessary. But TALKING about Edwards on the ticket, in polite company, is an acceptable way to say someone is thinking about going Dem. It's like a "code".

It's a strange culture here in many ways. And in spite of being slightly suffocating and conformist for a natural born rebel (like myself), there are many safe, and very nurturing, aspects to the Southern culture.

I think Kerry has a great chance here, if he'll only FOCUS. He just needs to give people a socially acceptable excuse to support him!

:kick::kick::kick:

[dad]

52. Charlotte view

I wish I could agree with all this positivity. But I have to say, NC is a lost cause. Even with Edwards as VP, we are not in play. In fact, I would go so far as to say Edwards on the ticket will not help one bit here. Seriously, if Edwards were running for his Senate seat here, he would lose it. All I can say is what I see and who I talk to day in and day out, and there are a lot of Repubs. The Dems could nominate Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmond for Prez, and we'd still go Red. We go for the race-baiting and homophobic shit like clockwork... sorry ... changing ever so slowly, but it's still true.
Even I am P.O.'ed at Edwards ... first for his votes on the war and Patriot Act, and also because he never responded to any e-mail I've ever sent him. And I am his constituent who voted for him. Even Jesse Freaking Helms used to send me replies. F Edwards! Give me DEAN.. CLARK.. KUCINICH... SHARPTON!!

[The_Casual_Observer]

47. It's a "time of war" we can't be worried about that right now

Anyway, these jobs soon will be replaced by even more high paying jobs in this vibrant economy that is running on all cylinders. All they need to do is pick themselves up and go to school and be retrained. The president said so!
:eyes: