Scandal becomes the main focus in Canada's election

[CShine]

It's being called the tightest election race in a generation - so close that there may be no clear winner to govern Canada after the ballots are counted. Canadians are going to the polls Monday to elect their next federal government. In what has become a two-way race, they'll decide whether to return to power the scandal-plagued Liberals under Prime Minister Paul Martin for a third consecutive term, or take their chances on a rejuvenated pro-US Conservative Party led by political newcomer Stephen Harper. It's shaping up that Canada may get neither.

"We're in the process of creating a dysfunctional Parliament that cannot work," warns Barry Kay, a political scientist at Wilfrid Laurier University in Waterloo, Ontario. "We'll be having an election within a few months."

If opinion polls are any indicator, neither the Conservatives nor the Liberals will have enough of the 308 parliamentary seats to claim uncontested power - a situation that forces them to forge alliances with their political rivals, the left-leaning New Democratic Party (NDP) and the separatist Bloc Québécois. In the strange world of Canadian politics, the balance of power could fall in the hands of the Bloc, a regional political party bent on breaking up the country because it wants French-speaking Quebec to secede from Canada. Canada has been ruled by a minority government eight times in its 137-year history, most recently in 1979. That government lasted nine months.

"I think we'll have another election by the end of the year, certainly by this time next year," Kay says.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0628/p07s01-woam.html

[2Design]

1. OMG another Bush country....

this will be terrible....didn't I read something where the canadian arm service or air force was under usa in a chain of command of some sort...

part of all that 2001 manipulation where the canadian border will not be open to draft dodgers and new regs on entrance for living...

I hope you all get the vote out and defeat this guys and their propoganda or all the young people in canada will wind up in Bush's imperial war on the world

[The Zanti Regent]

23. I wonder how much money the GOP is pouring into Harper and the Bloc?

What could be better for the Nazi Republican party than a divided and fragmented Canada where they can pick up the pieces?

[Cha]

2. And if Harper wins who is "pro America"..

and Kerry wins(I think he will) in November...Will the Canadian government still be "pro America"?


And too bad about the scandal plaguing the Liberals.

[daleo]

5. On the unlikely chance that there is a Prime Minister Harper in November

He will still be pro-America, although it will be easier for everyone in the world to be pro-America if and when Kerry wins the presidency. Harper would suck up to Bush and the PNACers if he has to, though, in my opinion. In fact, I think he would like to play second fiddle to Bush (realistically Blair has the job, so it would be more like fourth or fifth fiddle). I think he would also like to send Canadian troops on Bush's little adventures.

Personally, I think the fact that it looks like Bush will be kicked out in the U.S. helped clear the way for Harper's improving prospects. Some Canadians think it is not as dangerous to take a flyer on Harper as long as Bush isn't in office.

[CHIMO]

6. Not Simply

That simple.
The idea that the reform leader has, is that if it ain't free enterprise it ain't good. And by free enterprise I don't mean fair competition.
He wants to politicize the courts.
He wants to provide more power to the provinces (states), which any state in the US ould give all their first born to have as it exists in the Canadian federation.
One can expect that if the conservatives gain the most seats that they will implement those things that the separatists want that are also in agreement with the reform party.
No more CBC.
No more teeth in the CRTC.
By the next time an election comes around we will be owned by the media.
This would not be stopped by the separitists. So those who think that the left will rule are not looking at the Bloc's objective.

[daleo]

7. So you are saying that the Bloc will want to prop up a Conservative govt

At least for a while, and let the Harperites destroy various national institutions. The Harperites will want to destroy these institutions for ideological reasons, while the Bloc will go along for tactical reasons, to help along the separatist project. I agree that a Conservative-Bloc coalition would have those dynamics.

We will know in a few more days.

[CHIMO]

11. Essentially Yes

The conservatives will have to find those to agree with them.
When you look at things, what can they agree on?
The conservatives want to decentralize, which the bloc would agree on.
The conservatives would like to get rid of the CBC. The bloc would have no problem with that.
The conservatives want to get rid of the CRTC, and the bloc would think that that is something that would weaken Canada so they would have no problem with that.

For considerations from those closer to the situation, look at Joe Clark, David Orchard and Senator Murray(today's Toronto Star). They are quite concerned on both the direction and what is happening. I think that it is naive to think that we can handle things, when these things haven't even come on the radar. The hope that I have is that Bill B. and Ed B. will bring some overall perspective to the situation on the left.

[nolabels]

29. Sounds like Big money is trying Balkanize Kanadah too

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/misc/balkanus.htm

http://www.vdare.com/francis/balkans.htm
Two, Three, Many Balkans—Right Here In America

By Sam Francis

It probably tells you something significant about our immigration policy that the question whether the immigrants are assimilating or not remains controversial. If lots of Americans think they are assimilating and lots of others think they're not, it's probably a safe bet that they're not. Now a new survey gives a perfectly clear answer to the question: Yes and no.

The survey is the 2002 National Survey of Latinos, sponsored by the Pew Hispanic Center and the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation, which interviewed some 4,000 people of all ethnic, national, and racial groups across the nation. According to news reports, the most important conclusion of the survey about Hispanics in the United States is less than shattering: Hispanics are not a monolith.

That's perhaps the nice way to put it. What it means is that Hispanics in the survey tended to identify themselves less as "Hispanics" than as natives of the particular countries from which they came. "More than half of Latinos say their country of origin is their first and only choice for identifying themselves," a recent story in Newsday reported. "Only one-fourth of them said the umbrella terms 'Hispanic' and 'Latino' were their first choice and only one-fifth said 'American' is their preference."
"Breaking the Mold /Survey: Homeland a key identifier for America's Latinos" By John Moreno Gonzales, Newsday, December 18, 2002

But if most Hispanic immigrants still identify themselves by their countries of origin and only one-fifth identify themselves as Americans, then they're probably not Americans. Immigrants who do identify themselves as Americans may not really know much about the country they've joined, and they may get quite a bit about its culture and people wrong, but at least they've decided to try to be a part of it. With the new Hispanic Americans (pardon me if I offend anyone by using that term) that's not the case. They haven't made the decision yet and see no reason to do so
(snip)

[CHIMO]

31. Maybe Yes/Maybe No

Depends on your definitions.
Back a few decades ago Canada decided to define itself as a Mozaik. That is a Nation built from many cultures and encourages those cultures to maintain their identity. So it may be how one defines oneself as to their identity.
Now one can go to Asian or Indian communities, or others, and enjoy their culture but they all have the common bond of being Canadian.
Some want their country to be a melting pot and some want the diversity that different cultures can bring to the community. So depends on what one wants.

[Minstrel Boy]

3. Lots of surprises tomorrow, but some things we know:

The neoConservatives peaked early, let the mask slip, and scared away many voters who wanted to punish the Liberals but didn't want an illiberal government. They will now not win as many seats in Ontario as they were expected to a couple of weeks ago. They will not win a seat in Quebec, make no breakthrough in Atlantic Canada and their BC base will suffer big loses.

Late polls are suggesting the Bloc Quebecois also peaked early, and the Liberal vote in Quebec is strengthening. The BQ will do well, but not as well as earlier thought.

The Liberals reversed their slide in Ontario enough to assure that they'll form a minority government.

The NDP has been polling 19-21% in the past few days - that's near and above its historic high for a federal election. That the Liberals and Conservatives are both mired in the low 30s presents a historic opportunity for the NDP, given the distribution of our vote, and more close three-way races than ever before.

My admittedly partisan prediction: Conservatives and BQ do poorer than expected. Liberals better, and NDP much better.

[wish_I_could_vote]

9. Here's hoping you are right !

As a Canadian who recently moved to the US, I am stuck in nowhere land, unable to have a vote in either country's election. The frustration is driving me nuts.

[Minstrel Boy]

12. but you should have been able to vote

if you'd registered with a consulate as an overseas Canadian. Might want to look into that before the next election. It may be soon!

And by the way, welcome to DU! :hi:

[freeforall]

16. You can also contact Ottawa and request an absentee

ballot. I did that for the 2000 election when I lived in NYC.

[CHIMO]

4. PS

The core of the conservatives come from the christian right.
The so called scandal consists of an audit where the auditor stated that insufficient paper work exists to track 100 million over a period of more than 5 years.

[TrogL]

8. The Conservatives won't survive their first budget

[Spazito]

10. Here's my prediction...

It will be a Liberal minority government and we Canadians will be back at the polls this time next year if not earlier. The key is to start getting out the information, the facts on Harper and the faux Conservative party right after the vote on Monday. We need to use Hansert, it is a treasure trove of Harper quotes that define the REAL agenda of the far right of his party. We need to insure that when we have be back at the polls, we have done everything we can to educate, inform the Canadian public of the real face of Harper behind the mask of the "Conservative" banner. The extremist Alliance hijacked the Conservative name in order to put forth a false impression that they have adopted the moderate Conservative beliefs and that is soooo not the case.

[freeforall]

14. Thanks Spazito

Good suggestion, and I agree with you. Just wanted to let everyone know that the source for info on any debates and Harper quotes is Hansard. Here's the link:

http://www.parl.gc.ca/cgi-bin/hansard/e_hansard_master.pl

I think it would be a good idea to create a list of all the issues - the obvious ones such as health care, and the ones that weren't discussed such as the Star Wars program - and thoroughly research all the candidate's positions, as reported in Hansard transcripts etc. Then we will have some great talking points for the next election.

As for the patronage scandal, it actually makes me laugh that everyone gets up in arms about it. I don't agree with it at all - however, every government we have indulges in giving their corporate buddies preference. What about Mulroney and the Bre-X scandal for one?

So, it is damned hypocrisy for any of these parties to call the other out for this issue. But - I guess we will have to see if people here are stupid enough to give the conservatives, and the Bloc (*&%^$^ separatists) their support.

BTW, I was born and raised in Montreal and left - because of the fascist Parti Quebecois. It was not fun living in a place where you could get fined or jailed for not speaking French. It did not take me long to say "adieu."

[bushwakker]

13. what they really mean is pro-Bush

Harper would be pro-Bush. Martin is not anti-America, he is anti-Bush. Same goes for Europe. They don't hate Americans - they hate Bush.

[CHIMO]

15. If Anything

Martin might be considered pro-US.
One has to understand that an elephant beside a mouse... Well if the elephant turns over the mouse could be squashed.
Harper is more pro-US than Martin. But one has to go back several months to see that a Canadian citizen was abducted by the US and sent to Syria. Whenever relations get too cozy with the US, Canadians have a signal that says something is not exactly right here.
The fact that things are amiss right now is a combination of the Liberals throwing away the left side of the party and no one standing up for Canadians on the scene. As a result the voters are a bit lost because these issues have not been put on the table.
It is not exactly a pro-Bush anti-Bush type of picture. Although Bush has not done anything to be impartial in this ongoing experience

[Spazito]

17. Martin has yet to define himself, imo...

if you look at his family history and what we know of Martin's beliefs and love of his father, we should be led to believe that he will lean left, possibly more left than Chretien. The difficulty is, even though Martin has played a key role in Canadian politics for a long time, we only know him as the "Finance Minister" that cut programs to balance the budget, we really know little beyond that because he became leader, in essence, during the run-up to the election. One could call that period the pre-election electioneering and that, imo, tends to cloud the ability to know his real beliefs. Part of the cloud stems from, imo, the business aspect of Martin's resume and it does need more in-depth definition, imo.

[CHIMO]

18. Think That

You have hit the nail on the head. As finance minister he took reports from everyone and sifted the results to his requirements. He never had to make a real decision. He was afforded the protection of the Prime minister and he thought that he could do much better.
I think that this campaign may be his baptism into realizing that it is on his shoulders and not continue to rely on others such as his former advisers.

[Spazito]

26. It is interesting, for sure, he has found out that he cannot define...

himself solely on reducing the deficit and, I believe, he believed that Canadians knew more about "Paul Martin" than was actually the case, which is interesting in itself. By the time he realized he had to define himself more broadly, we were in pre-election mode and that tends to limit the candidate to appealing the the broadest possible venue and doesn't tend to lend itself to soul-searching.

[Minstrel Boy]

19. I think Martin's defined himself, but I also think he's divided against

himself.

He has liberal sentiment, but his public history is one of making choices contrary to his sentiment.

If we get some form of Liberal/NDP arrangement, then he'll be obliged to heed more of the values he claims to admire in his father, whose legacy was also enacted in a minority parliament thanks to the leading of the NDP and the true father of Canadian public healthcare, Tommy Douglas.

[CHIMO]

20. Perhaps-But Not

My reading.
His father brought us Canadian citizenship. If one goes back we were not allowed to be Canadian at one time.
He recounts how he used to listen in to political discussions at home among various politicians. I think that certain things have been ingrained in him.
Remember that politics is the art of the possible. I don't think that he evolved from minister of finance, where he could be a technician into a leader. He got to the position by a backroom revolt. Well now he has to lead. A bit different.
As for the NDP, I remember going to an NDP meeting back in the sixties when the RCMP followed you afterwards. Those were the days. I think that we need the NDP to keep things from getting out of whack. I would venture a guess that as soon as they would gain power they would loose their validity.
Very sorry that the labour part of the NDP has swung to free trade and screwed some other parties by waltzing with them for so long. But everyone has a memory and the next waltz will not be the same. Time marches on.

[vetwife]

21. I cannot see Canada like America...Prayers are with you

If this happens.....we are sure feeling your pain !
Canadians are so sweet and caring and why would anyone change what works. We had our electiion stolen...Are our people up there helping your people learning the tricks of the theft thing.

[CHIMO]

24. Yes

And if you would like to change things then get an Americain Embassy in the US. We heve one Paul C. that we could send you.

[Spazito]

22. Exactly, that is my take, at this point anyway...

my sense is he, philosophically, leans left like his father but his business aspect re finances cause him angst, it is an interesting dicotomy, imo. Which one will win if he ever has to choose between the two?

[ilovenicepeople]

25. FW: Canadians...

Ive received 20 of these Conservative junk Emails telling me to hate Paul Martin.Has anyone else been sent that Email?:hi:

[vetwife]

27. Bush has screwed up the whole planet..His idealogy and

Koolaid drinkers. We can barely hold it together here and now it looks like you folks are headed down that same slope. There goes our escape route !

[CHIMO]

30. I Wouldn't Get

Panicked yet.
As much as a lot of people are worried, there are still some checks and balances that could be brought into play with a conservative minority government.
Former leaders of the previous Progressive Conservative party(that has been hijacked by the reform party) are still on the scene. Joe Clark who has given all his life to the party is still there. He came back into politics when the PC were cut down to nothing and had a huge debt. He was screwed twice by Irish Eyes so he has lots of weight in the old Progressive Conservative party.
A young buck(50 years young), David Orchard, who wanted to take the party back to some of its original roots was screwed by the present group at the helm.
Long time PC Senator Murray has come out against the Conservatives.
Some are still trying to take back the PC from the hijacking.
In any event, the system of government that we have requires a strong opposition to keep the government honest. When we do not have that, then things get sort of screwed up. If you know what I mean.

[freeforall]

28. Shameless promotion but...

link on GD thread about effect of Moore's 9/11 on our election.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1875518&mesg_id=1875518

[bushwakker]

32. We do not need another Brian Mulroney in Ottawa

Licking Bush's boots and enabling the Illegitimate Son.