IRAQ HANDOVER 'TODAY'

[cal04]

IRAQ HANDOVER 'TODAY'


Iraqi handover 'brought forward'


The handover of sovereignty to Iraq is being brought forward from 30 June to today, Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari has said.

Mr Zebari was speaking after talks with the UK Prime Minister Tony Blair in the Turkish city of Istanbul.

Mr Blair said a formal announcement would be made later.

The BBC's political editor Andrew Marr in Istanbul says the surprise move, which emerged at the start of a Nato summit, is an important symbolic step.

Mr Zebari said the deteriorating security situation in the country was one of the reasons why the date had been brought forward.

"We will challenge these elements in Iraq, the anti-democratic elements, by even bringing the handover of sovereignty before June 30 as a sign we are ready for it," he said.
The Iraqi foreign minister's disclosure came as Nato leaders were arriving for the summit in Istanbul, where they are expected to endorse a plan to help train Iraqi security forces.

Nato's Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer says the alliance must take action to ensure security is maintained in Iraq after the handover of power.

"There is a broad agreement that a stable Iraq is in the interest of all allies," he said.

Nato ambassadors, who gathered in Istanbul for talks before the arrival of the heads of government, hammered out a draft agreement to provide training and equipment for Iraq's armed forces.

The move followed an urgent request from interim Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi.

It is not yet clear when the training operation will begin, nor how many personnel will be involved.

The 26-member alliance also looks likely to agree to the expansion of its operations in Afghanistan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3845517.stm

[rooboy]

1. MY GOD!!! You weren't kidding !!! n/t

[hang a left]

2. Well there must be some type of serious attack planned on the

green zone. I read something a few days ago that threatened so, and I believe it was on June 30th that it was supposed to take place.

[Dookus]

6. why would this affect any planned attacks?

I don't get it... the freepers are all saying it's a brilliant move to preempt any attacks.

Do they really think the attacks will stop once the puppet government is installed?

[radfringe]

39. I agree

whether the turnover was today, tomorrow or next month -- won't do anything to stop the attacks

Our "FORMAL" occupation is just an excuse for the attacks -- our troops are still in Iraq and there is no sign we are leaving any time soon. According to news reports we will be sending more troops into Iraq.

The attacks will continue and the terrorists/rebels/insurgents will demand that our troops leave completely or find another justification --

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-woiraq283870392jun28,0,2951562.story?coll=ny-worldnews-headlines
Marine said to be held
Broadcasts show militants threatening to behead Pakistani and American, claims U.S. has not confirmed

---snip---

Al-Jazeera said the militants, who identified themselves as belonging to a group called the Islamic Response Movement, demanded the release of all Iraqis "in occupation jails" or the man would be killed. The group said it had infiltrated a Marine outpost, lured the man outside and abducted him. No further details were available.

================================

The turnover to a puppet government is just another dog & pony show by bush* and his Band of Bunglers.

[0007]

67. This is more than just a misreckoning, it is a robbery in plain sight,

with everyone watching

[Stuckinthebush]

63. Well, it would preempt a planned attack

for the day of the handover because the attackers would not be in place and ready to pull it off. So in that respect, it is smart. However, attacks will begin immediately which will have the aim of destabilizing the new government.

But the US doesn't really give a damn about that, all we care about is throwing this hot potato away to whomever will catch it. Bush can now strut and preen while declaring that the Iraqis are now free...

Mission accomplished!

[rocktivity]

135. But stuckinthebush

What's to stop an attack on June 30 anyhow?

:headbang:
rocknation

[Stuckinthebush]

143. Not a thing

It will happen anyway, but Bush can say that it was after the handover instead of during therefore the US is not responsible. Timing....

[mike_c]

3. I wonder if they woke the chimp up to tell him....

Hand over. Yeah.

[shraby]

5. I specially like this part:

We will challenge these elements in Iraq, the anti-democratic elements, by even bringing the handover of sovereignty before June 30 as a sign we are ready for it," he said.


Yup, they are ready for it all right! And my mother wears army boots, too.

[Tight_rope]

110. I'm sure they did...and he in response said...

"Good now I can start working on how to steal the 2004 elections...I'm so happy that that MAJOR FUCKUP IS OUTTA MY HANDS".

[Sugarbleus]

4. Geez, I forgot all about this! eom

[Occulus]

7. And WTF does THIS mean?

Interesting timing. Did Moore light a fuse with the release of F-911?

[Roy]

9. This is for Mr Bush....

This is to allow Mr Bush to save face and not be called a coward for refusing to go on June 30.

[MaineDem]

48. Ahhh, very interesting!

That's a very good point.

[Whoa_Nelly]

31. IMO this has to do with

taking away the limelight from the indictments coming down re: Plame

More ROVErian moves

[Seabiscuit]

32. Exacto!

It means nothing more than that F-9/11's really, really gotten under their skin. Time for a new photo-op!!!

Dubya even got Blair and his lapdogs break the news for him.

I can't fathom any other meaning - 2 days earlier means nothing more than that the Iraqi army is 2 days less prepared than it would otherwise be - pretty meaningless, given the there are more cops in NYC than people in the Iraqi army. And that's supposed to provide security across every city and town in Iraq?

And WTF are we "handing over" and to whom??? Certainly not any meaningful control of *anything*. :wtf:

[SilasSoule]

8. Was there a formal handover ceremony planned for the 30th???

with lots of pomp and circumstance where there would a band playing and a Choir of IRAQI chidren singing songs and smiling happily because of their new schools etc.??? U.S. and IRAQI flags flying everywhere. Brememer would have this huge key with a bow that he physically hands over to the IRAQI prime minister and the inevitable speeches citing democracy....defeating terrorists...lovers of fredom...triumph of good over evil...blah blah...blahhh....blahhh

Tell me that they would pass up such a photo op?? I'm not sure.

[Kellanved]

17. Photo Op

I don't know what was planned for the 30th, but doesn't Bush just happen to be in Turkey? That's practically in the neighborhood.

[DoYouEverWonder]

30. They even pushed back the NATO meeting

so that W could be in the neighborhood for the handover. I guess things aren't going the way they had hoped?

[saracat]

10. Did Mr.Zebari

mean"Bring it on'?

[shraby]

11. What makes me think it's

going to get nasty over there pronto?

[Seabiscuit]

34. That's how I read it.

"Bring it on". And they WILL!

Things are going to explode all summer and fall over there. Where are the Iraqi troops going to be trained? Surely not on Iraqi soil where anyone doing the training's going to have a target painted on their backs.

[WillyT]

12. OMFG !!! - And, I Think... Too Little, Too Late...

Nobody's gonna fall for this crap NOW!!!

These guys really ARE the fucking Keystone Cops!!!

Actually, that's an insult to the Keystone Cops. These guys are way worse!!!

:wtf:

[thecrow]

13. This is to blank out CNN

from having more Michael Moore festivals.
They'd rather THEY be in the news today instead of all the hubub of Michael Moore and F9-11.

[SoCalDem]

14. It sounds as if the Iraqis actually ARE smarter..

They knew that the "special day".much ballyhooed, would certainly attract "evildoers".. They took the bull by the horns and changed things to suit THEM... I am impressed with their thinking :)

[RummyTheDummy]

15. Doesn't matter who had the idea

The handover is a sham. Those on the right actually believe the "insurgents" will fold their tents and all of the sudden be pacified because of some phony handover.

As long as we are occupying the country, which won't change anytime soon, the attacks and chaos will remain a fact of every day life in Iraq. We haven't seen anything yet.

[SoCalDem]

24. I know it's a sham, but a few innocent lives might have been saved

by doing it now.. There were bound to be some Iraqi people who might have brough their kids (to be part of history..blah..blah..blah) and who knows what would have happened if they had telegraphed their plans and carnage ensued..

There will be no shortage of violence , regardless of when it happened.. They only got a 2 day headstart on their civil war..

[qwerty]

165. me too

it dont make no sense

[Norbert]

16. ABC News is reporting the transfer has taken place

this from a special report @2:50 EDT.

[hang a left]

18. On CNN as well.

Had a little ceremony and everything.

[OldCurmudgeon]

40. here's the photo-op, such as it is

Caption: "Here, catch!"

[aquart]

21. CBS, Dan Rather reporting. 2:56 am EDT

Does it seem havey cavey? Furtive?

[Bluebear]

19. They'll do anything to take the news off of F9/11!

[LittleApple81]

20. They want the Iraqis to kill their countrymen themselves, so Bush does not

get his hands dirty anymore.

[Tight_rope]

113. Too Late...no amount of bleach or pinesol can get the blood of W's hands!

[Pachamama]

22. Transfer happened 2 days early so Paul Bremer could get the hell out

...before all hell breaks loose....

Sovereignty my a$$...who believes that?

[PaDUer]

78. Bremer did exactly that..

he flew out of the country immediately.

[Tight_rope]

115. Bremer is a sorry ass punk just like Bush!

[OutlawCorporatePolls]

23. Welcome to "Iraeq"

[Rhiannon12866]

35. This was a huge mistake

They did a great take-off on this on "The Daily Show," but it is really not in the least bit funny. The factions in Iraq consider Israel their mortal enemy and will resent any Jewish influence, even if it comes from Americans. We have to think before we act and understand the sensibilities at play in this region. They are a very different culture. As I keep asking, how can we wonder why they hate us?:-(

[rocktivity]

132. The opinion survey results on the Iraqi flag are in

:headbang:
rocknation

[pinniped]

25. The yahoo! story was pretty funny...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040628/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_sovereignty&cid=540&ncid=716

------
"This is a historical day," Allawi said. "We feel we are capable of controlling the security situation."
------

And the funniest line coming from a brain-dead turkey:
------
"You have said, and we agreed, that you are ready for sovereignty," Bremer said in the ceremony. "I will leave Iraq confident in its future".
------
Bremer went on a series of farewell visits to areas throughout the country over the past few days.
------
-->

If asshole Bremoran went to any farewell visits it was in the green zone. Travel anywhere else and no doubt the jerkoff would've received a complimentary RPG up his piehole.

:party:

[Moderator]

26. kick

[Rhiannon12866]

27. I had CNN on, in the background, and this just got through to me

Thanks for the information. I am wondering if things have just gotten so bad there that they felt that they just had no other choice.:shrug:

[DoktorGreg]

28. Where are the throngs of people waving their new flag?

It seems like they should be overwhelmed at this pivital point in their history.

[Corby]

33. Post Midnight's Children

This is what the deaths and suffering has bought? A bogus handover of power rushed through in the wee hours of the morning. What a proud legacy Bush has bequeathed to the Iraqi people.

Moses, Mary and Mohammed! Bush has dragged our flag through the sty. The most powerful nation in history reduced to sneaking about because it can't back up this despicable administration's delusions. Bremer said fuck the pomp and circumstance, I want a Chinook on the roof in 15 minutes.

Happy Iraqi Indepence Day. The fireworks, er, civil war to commence in 3...2...

[DoktorGreg]

36. Thank you for that...

I cant do that anymore without cussing. Im glad there are calmer heads around.

[Zhade]

37. Indeed. Welcome to DU!

:)

[Rhiannon12866]

47. I also welcome you to DU, Corby ! Great to have you with us!

And certainly agree with your sentiments. I still am listening to CNN and just wonder what the news people can possibly come up with to explain this bizarre premature occurrence. But I would like to know, much more, the truth and rationale beyond all this.:shrug:

[Habibi]

68. Isn't Iraq about 8 hours ahead of EDT?

So the ceremony, such as it was, would have taken place in the morning around 9 or 10, Bahgdad time, right?

Otherwise, I agree with your sentiments.

[Corby]

126. Time Zones

I thought about that, but decided there is only one audience Bushco cares about -- the U.S. They could have had a handover ceremony at night (remember Hong Kong in '97?) if they thought it was going to go well for them.

Don't forget the first of Bush's speeches about Iraq (whatever happended to the rest of that series, by the way?). They were supposed to be addressed to the peoples of Iraq and America. Of course, it was the wee hours in Iraq when he gave it.

If they could have used it to their advantage, the handover would have occurred during primetime in the US, regardless of the time in Iraq. We are the target audience. That's why this dead of night (by our clock) handover is so compelling.

[Rhiannon12866]

160. They said it was 10:26am, Baghdad time. n/t

[Tight_rope]

116. Welcome to DU Corby!

[rocktivity]

137. Here are the throngs of Iraqi people waving their new flag

:headbang:
rocknation

[rocktivity]

138. HERE are the throngs of peolple waving their new flag

:headbang:
rocknation

[AlFrankenFan]

29. Fuck

I just dropped my drink. I was watching "Kill Bill Vol. 1" when I turned to what was supposted to be Larry King Live (taping re-run of Clinton interview) - and here this is. I am literally speechless. Maybe I'll think of something productive to say while I go get a towel.

[Eye and Monkey]

38. Something's about to happen. Something BushCo wants to avoid.

Something BushCo wants to say happened "after they turned over sovereignty".

[Corby]

41. Hunker Down

We can't pull a Saigon and skedaddle -- the oil's still there. So we're going to pull inside our bases, minimize American causulties until November, and try to protect Halliburton's, er, America's interests while the Iraqi's kill each other. Hell, Bush never cared about these people anyway. They had their chance to shower us with flowers. Now they're just weighing down his election chances with their dying and their complaints about human rights. Ingrates.

Buchco's on damage control until November. Then the draft starts and we'll reinvade with 50,000 conscripted teenagers to depose whatever faction is dominant.

[Eye and Monkey]

42. well, yes, but as said in post #9 above, also for Dubba's photo-op -

and I can't help but thinking - something else is motivating this. Something like fore-knowledge.

[Corby]

44. Bush in Iraq?

I saw rumors that Bush was going to drop in for the handover, but I found that hard to imagine. There is no safe place to be in Iraq and I can't believe his handlers would've risked it.

Maybe he never intended to; maybe he still will. It's difficult to predict with this administration because they're just making stuff up as they go anyway.

It's like watching a drunk driving through a construction zone at 4 am and trying to predict which concrete barrier he's going to plow into.

[Eye and Monkey]

46. perhaps Dubba doing a hand-over in Ankara? tomorrow?

That would give BushCo a photo-op without having him go to Iraq, and not having a stand-in for him in Iraq, and not having the hand-over in DC.

Still, I think this stinks of more than a photo-op.

[Ferretherder]

65. Been reading your posts on this thread, and all I can say is...

...Man, I like your style!

Welcome to DU, Corby! Glad to have another intelligent voice added to the cacophonous din of the anti-fascist, anti-imperialist chorus emanating from the foremost bastion of free speech this side of France! Together, we're going to spread the word about * and his sordid deeds and equally depraved henchmen, and DARE anyone to vote for this drug-addled frat-boy again!

[ilovenicepeople]

142. My sentiments exactly Ferretherder (minus the big words though)

Welcome Corby well stated,I'm not to well versed with the vocabulary as most are here(but just as pissed off) HOWDY FREE THINKERS!!:hi:

[Ferretherder]

176. Howdy! yourself, ilovenicepeople,...

...and welcome to DU!

...the REAL 'Land of the Free'.

[displacedtexan]

43. What do you bet that we stop hearing about attacks in Iraq?

"Like a thief in the night" keeps running through my head.

These people would buy something at SUPER 24 HR Wal-Mart, break it, and return it to another Wal-Mart in the wee hours of the morning, claiming it was a gift, which was broken when they took it out of the box.

Hostages still face beheadings; foreigners can't travel (or even walk down the streets of the Green Zone, and "insurgents" won't recognize the new puppet government.

I bet the press stops reporting attacks (or plays down their significance).

[Tight_rope]

124. I love your analysis comparison to Wal-Mart return!

It made me laugh. Oh...the country we live in.

[Barkley]

107. Corby, I like your analysis!

:kick:

Welcome to the DU

[Tight_rope]

120. BINGO!

So the chimp can immediately say, "Well my watch was over"!

[Sweetpea]

45. Since this was Bush's war, why isn't he there for the transfer of power

as a symbol of hope and democracy.

[jeff30997]

49. Because he's a wimp!

:grr:

[Corby]

51. Maybe he's afraid...

that mean Irish reporter would be there.

[Tight_rope]

121. Are you kidding...The boy King risk his precious life to

show the world that the handover is a symbol of hope and democracy. I think you must be mistaken him for being a human being. Remember his blood is not red, it's GOLD.

[Swamp Rat]

50. Could this event... possibly... "preempt" Michael Moore's movie

... in this week's news cycle? Mmm...

"Stay tuned to the next Bat channel!"

[rocktivity]

128. Ding ding ding! Swamp Rat, you're our grand prize winner!

Fahrenheit 9/11 may do $100 million, showing on 2000 screens soon

"We were already getting calls from theaters begging for prints,." Lions Gate prexyprexy Tom Ortenberg said Friday. IFC prexy Jonathan Sehring said, "Harvey said he thought we could be on more than 2,000 within a week or two."

Really, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if this was done to knock Moore's success off the front pages!

:headbang:
rocknation

[Swamp Rat]

162. No front page Michael Moore stories at 5 pm

I scanned all the channels at 5 pm and not ONE even mentioned Moore. I saw F9/11 mentioned at the END of Headline News, when they tallied the weekend box office earnings.

And, I just saw Lou Dobbs ask this CNN poll question: "Do you think the handover is a political victory for Bush?" This question itself implies that it was done for political purposes.

This doesn't surprise me, nor should it surprise anyone else here at DU. Hell, even the Great NASCAR Hero, Dale Earnhardt, Jr. is endorsing F9/11. Bush HAS to do something to keep the snowball from getting bigger and bigger and bigger...

[Junkdrawer]

52. An underhanded handover,,

Why am I not surprised?

[Corby]

53. I'm surprised.

I thought they'd try to squeeze some photo ops out of the handover. The way they've done it looks more like the sale of a used car with Bremer handing over the title.

It shows how little any of this had to do with the Iraqi people. They just had the whole mess dumped in their laps (although we all know who's really going to be driving). Here's your crappy flag, good luck.

It's head-scratching curious. Is there something coming that Bushco knows about, can't prevent, and wants the "Iraqi Government" to take the blame for?

[Junkdrawer]

54. Welcome to DU...BTW: Follow the money & oil...

Because that's what the war was all about. When Iraqis get to hand reconstruction contracts to local firms and firms from other nations, I'll be more impressed.

[Tight_rope]

122. Yeah..it's sad that the errand boy is the one who got the photo shoot

I know it damn near killed Bush not to have his pictures all of the TV news and newspapers showing him doing the handover. In stead, the errand boy got all the publicity.

[Raster]

168. nope, no photo ops for this one... and EVERYONE knows...

...we aren't going ANYWHERE. This is just for the rubes in the cheap seats.

[TryingToWarnYou]

55. Getting rid of the "hot potato" early?

Now watch how fast the Bush administration disavows anything bad from here on out as not being their responsibility...not that they ever took responsibility for anything. I just find this one of those moments where you know they were good and happy to get rid of their albatross.

[bushwakker]

56. OK, all is well. Let's go home.

how long before they hand it back?

[peacebuzzard]

112. "CUT!" click. The end. filming over, time to edit before campaigning

Media pack up. No more prime time. Outa here, we'll stage the studio elsewhere...

[Divernan]

57. Remember those helicopters on the roof of the Saigon embassy?

This turnover of "power" in Iraq is akin to if the US ambassador had thrown a flag down to the desperate people trying to get through the embassy gates and shouting, "The U.S. declares victory. We're confident in your ability to defend yourselves from those pesky VC."

[Rhiannon12866]

58. The Washington Post caught this really early

This was still LBN on CNN when I got The Washington Post story via e-mail. Somebody's right on this. Am I paranoid to wonder why? At this point in time, I am ready to believe almost anything.:shrug:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10917-2004Jun28.html?referrer=email

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

66. -snip-

While ordinary Iraqis regard the handover as symbolically important, it will not result in many immediate changes for them. U.S. forces will continue to conduct raids and house searches. Iraqi government ministries will operate in much the same way they did while under occupation.


Pretty much sums it up.

[Rhiannon12866]

69. I have wondered about this

Is it a "regime change," in name only, in a effort to stamp out the insurgency? If we cannot be fooled, I seriously doubt that they can.:shrug:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

70. The only thing being transferred here is "the buck."

"The buck" of responsibility and accountability. Equivalent to calling your cat a dog even though it's still a cat.

"Sit Iraq. Iraq sit!...Good boy!"

[Rhiannon12866]

82. I agree. I am certain that things there are unchanged and still a mess

And that Americans will continue to die. Nothing has really changed, but we are expected to believe that they have.:-(

Lovely woman; cute dog; your picture?:shrug:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

87. Nope.

Just a metaphorical picture of Iraq, begging at it's master's knee.

[Rhiannon12866]

185. Still a lovely woman and a very cute dog

But I appreciate your metaphor. What a mess, but I repeat myself.:shrug:

[Ludicrous]

103. How many?

How many Americans are dying over there at the hands of Iraqis on a daily basis?

Compare that to

How many Americans die every day at the hands of other Americans right here at home in American cities???

[Ripley]

131. Oh, I get it now....you're Brit Hume!

Gee, shouldn't you actually be investigating something honestly instead of spending your time on a message board?

Desperation.

[Rhiannon12866]

186. This may be true,

but no Americans would be dying in Iraq if we were not there. And why are we there? Saddam had WMDs? Nope. He had ties to al-Qaeda? Nope. He was responsible for 9/11? Nope. Iraq posed a dangerous and immediate threat to the U.S.? Nope. Iraq was attempting to buy large quantities of uranium from Africa for use in nuclear weapons? Nope.

Was he was a bad man? Well, sure. But so are many regimes throughout the world. Why aren't we going after Saudia Arabia, one of the most repressive regimes on the planet? 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudi, but Saudi Arabia isn't even included in "the axis of evil." They are involved with BFEE and the U.S. government in big oil, that's the reason.

American lives should not be lost in empire building.;(

[robbedvoter]

59. Related news: Iraqis revenues belong to US, UK

__In Last-Minute 'Stealth Move,' Most of Iraq's Revenues Have Been
Committed to US/UK Corporations, NOT to Iraqis

The New Standard: " According to documents posted on its own web site,
Iraq's Coalition Provisional Authority's little-known Program Review
Board has quietly committed billions of dollars in Iraq's oil revenues
to new contracts that critics say will enrich US and British
corporations while limiting the amount of revenue Iraq's new interim
government will have at its disposal when it assumes authority from
the CPA on June 30. Why are such large amounts of discretionary cash
being committed to programs prior to establishing mechanisms for
implementing them?' the report asks. 'And why are these spending
obligations being introduced at the last minute rather than allowing
the in-coming government to make such decisions?' "
http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=592

[Tight_rope]

129. Oh..I see...Bush said you can have your land back and the crazies

that keep killing our troops as well as Iraqi civilians. But, the oil belongs me "US".

BUSHCO ARE A BUNCH OF FUCKING THEIVES!

[underpants]

60. Bremer:~"Here sign this I OUGHTA HERE!"

Before the fan is hit.

[Tight_rope]

130. ROTFLMBAO!...You got!

To illaborate...

Bremer said, "Hey FOOL, opps I mean Mr. Allawi, sign here, here and here...initial here and here...Good...nice doing business with you...the chimp...I mean pResident Bush will be in touch...good luck jackass...I mean my friend...I'm outt here!"

Allawi said, "Aren't you going to stay and have some cake and punch!"

Bremer said, "Are you kidding me...both might be lacied with poison...Bye sucker...oppps I mean my friend"!

Allawi said, "Damn what's his problem...you would think that we are out to kill all Americans".

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

61. How very sad...

Iraqi "self-government" sneaks into town in the middle of the night because it's afraid what the insurgents had planned -- which is hardly the sort of thing that inspires confidence in the Iraqi people. I don't think the reason for moving up the transfer date had as much to do with "Fahrenheit 9/11" as it does with the potential for a series of orchestrated bombings and beheadings to coincide with the "official" transfer on November 30.

"Ha, ha, ha," says the Bush Administration. "We turned over sovereignty when they weren't looking."

"Ha, ha, ha," say the insurgents, who will likely unleash their terror campaign on June 30th, as planned, just to remind the Bush Administration who's really in charge in Iraq.

This -- This is what passes for a policy success for the Bush Administration.

How very sad.

[Ludicrous]

75. Sad?

How is this not Good News? I really don't understand how this is "sad". Personally I would find it "sad" to see more people dying over there as you seem to imply will occur 2 days hence.

It was the middle of the day over there, only the middle of the night over here.

How do you know about "a series of orchestrated bombings and beheadings to coincide with the "official" transfer on November 30."?

November 30 is a long way off. What could that date have to do with anything that's happening today? Do you have some intelligence information of the insurgents' plans?

Seems to me that this is the necessary first step in bringing our troops home. That would be good news, right?

[Bridget Burke]

79. So, when are our troops returning?

Last I heard, more are being sent. Need to staff those permanent bases, you know.

The handover is a tawdry, furtive affair. Certain corporations will continue to loot Iraq & impoverish the American taxpayer. Americans and others will continue to die.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

83. Say "Hi" to the folks at Free Republic for me...

You're either insanely misinformed or just here to repeat some Republican talking points. I refuse to believe that anybody could be so stupid as to believe that today's events represent "good news" coming from Iraq.

First step in bringing the troops home? Possibly in body bags.

That "transfer of sovereignty" is a figleaf to allow the U.S. some political cover. We're constructing fourteen permanent military bases in Iraq. Does that sound like the action of an occupying army that's planning to leave anytime soon? It's like having relatives come to visit, then one day you notice that they're building a guest cottage in the back yard.

This Administration is hoping that fake sovereignty will calm Iraq enough to allow Bush & Co. to survive the November Election. After that, the whip will come down on the Iraqi people in a way that will make what happened at Abu Ghraib look like a routine traffic stop. The "interim" government has already hinted that it might impose martial law -- just temporarily of course. Does that sound like "good news?"

[Ludicrous]

88. Yes, very good. Excellent even

It does indeed sound like good news!

Martial law may be exactly what they need to do to root out the murderers. Anyway it will be Iraqis imposing Iraqi law on Iraqi criminals. Does that sound like bad news?

[truth2power]

97. "Iraqis imposing Iraqi law on Iraqi criminals"

Excuse me, but what are you smoking?

So, those who have been fighting the occupation forces all this time are CRIMINALS?? So, what would you do if another country invaded the US and dropped 500lb bombs on our citizens, busting down our doors and throwing mostly innocent Americans into prison where they were forced to simulate oral sex for the entertainment of the occupiers?

Gawd.....I need another cup of coffee. It's crazy here this morning.

[Ludicrous]

99. Not smoking

Yes, the people arming vehicles with explosives which murder children and innocent bystanders are CRIMINALS. What would you call them?

I don't know what I would do if another country invaded the US. And since it will never happen, it is pointless to debate.

Let's stick to reality and discuss what's really happening to real people in a real situation in Iraq.

When the NEW Iraqi Government apprehends and prosecutes the criminals
support for terrorists will dry up and the attacks will cease.

This is all good news for the US! <clink!> My coffee cup hitting yours in Toasting the success New Iraqi Government!

[Bridget Burke]

101. If the US was invaded, you'd be a fine Collaborator...

When all US forces are out of Iraq and when Iraqis control all their resources we'll talk about a New Iraqi Government.

Right now, it's "Meet the new boss--same as the old boss."

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The_Casual_Observer]

150. How about a little reality Mr Freeper

You are an asshole disruptor freeper.

Get lost.

[Heyo]

109. Yes, I agree...

They are *criminals*, and for those who cut the heads off innocent captive human being after watching his family beg for his life on television.... they are sub-human savages...

What are we going to call them? "Freedom Fighters"? Spare me.

If they really wanted the occupation to end.. they would help rebuild the country which is the fastest way to get the troops out and end the occupation. But that's not what they want, they'd rather indiscriminately intentionally murder people...the occupation is just an excuse.. most of them are not even Iraqi's. They are foreign jihadis.

Heyo

[Ludicrous]

114. Thanks

I'm so glad someone else understands.

And you are correct in saying "that's not what they want".
When we analyze "what they want", it is usually some other criminal that they want released.
When we analyze what they DON'T want, it is a Sovreign Iraq.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

117. Your President

I say "your president" because I assume he got your vote in 2000.

Your president mocked Karla Faye Tucker, who pleaded for her life before being murdered by the State of Texas. Beheading or Lethal Injection? Dead is dead. And when you talk about indiscriminately murdering people, you might want to read the international news reports about how U.S. forces shelled the city of Fallujah during the stand-off in April. So tell me again the difference between Bush and Al-Zarqari?

Iraq is a cluster-fuck of the Bush Administration's own making. Conducting a phoney "sovereignty transfer" isn't going to fool the Iraqi people. They see their new government as collaborators with an invading Army -- and they treat them accordingly. They know that martial law means the religious and political dissenters will be arrested and beaten. Pretty much the same treatment as they received from Saddam Hussein.

Yep. This has been so worth the lives of nearly 900 American soldiers.

[Ludicrous]

123. Your Martyrs

I say "Your Martyrs" because I assume you hold them in higher regard than their victims.

Fallujah = could have avoided shelling if they weren't harboring the killers of 4 US contractors who were dragged thru the streets and hung from a bridge.

Karla Faye Tucker = would still be alive is only she found God before she hacked two people to death.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

125. Your're right....

The U.S. invasion butchered several thousand Iraqi civilians, but I suppose they were really just being cranky when they fought back against the U.S. contractors (the term you're searching for is "mercenaries") who fired indiscriminately at women, children and the elderly. This comes on the heels of a decade of U.S.-led sanctions where hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's died from disease and starvation. And that came after the the Highway of Death where the U.S. military slaughtered thousands of Iraqi soldiers (nearly all of them conscripts) who were fleeing from Kuwait at the end of Desert Storm.

I don't know why these people are so unpleasant and, let's face it, down right rude toward us. I mean, we liberated them for goodness sake, and all we ask in return is to be able to arrest them in the middle of the night and drag them from their homes and force them to engage in homoerotic behavior. Oh, and be photographed while doing it.

I mean, it's not like we took a group of ex-patriots eager to make a fast buck looting the national wealth of Iraq and designated them as the "Interim Government." Oh. Wait a minute. Turns out that's exactly what we did, and we allowed a bunch of Saddam's former bagmen to take control of the security forces.

It's a new day in Iraq!

[DrWeird]

134. Hey buddy.

Bush signed an executive order for the torturing of detainees at Abu Ghraib.

Then when the press found out, he blamed it on the troops.

Is this what repiblicans mean by personal responsibility?

How could you possibly vote for this man and look at yourself in a mirror?

[Heyo]

144. I'm curious....

.. so I'm just asking.

Why would you assume you know who I did or would vote for just because I refer to as "criminals" people who would hold innocent civilians captive, watch as their family member tearfully plead for their loved ones lives on international television, then cut off that living human being's head on videotape and proudly show it to others?

Do you have to be of a certain political persuasion to call such extreme cruelty and inhumanity exactly what it is?

Heyo

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

146. The Smoking Gun?

Your ability to effortlessly repeat RNC talking points. Your willingness to slaughter untold thousands of innocents in revenge for the actions of a few. Your quickness to label an entire culture as "sub-human" because they've executed (to date) four people, even though as governor of Texas, your president executed 150 persons, including juveniles and the mentally retarded.

Your pick.

[Heyo]

156. What the hell post are you replying to?

Did you accidentally click "reply" on my post intending to respond to a different post?

Heyo

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

158. I'm replying to Post #144

Titled "I'm curious."

Try to keep up, OK?

[Heyo]

159. I thought that might be what it was....

But I didn't recognize anything I said in your response... You shouldn't just make stuff up that was never said and respond to that, because then you're having a conversation with yourself and you don't need me for that. Try to respond to what I actually said. Take this as an example.

"Your ability to effortlessly repeat RNC talking points."

That's a total cop-out. (But you already knew that.) For one thing, I've heard no such talking point. (But I'm sure you have) Secondly, is it such a stretch that someone genuinely would be against decapitation without their hand being held in some way by politics?

"Your willingness to slaughter untold thousands of innocents in revenge for the actions of a few."

This gave me a chuckle. Where exactly do you read that I said that? I will paste the text of my post again at the bottom. Show me where I said that. I don't know where you learned this style of debate, but if you want to write posts back and forth to yourself, you don't need DU for that. This was a real forehead slapper. How you read that in what I said is beyond me.. "slaughter untold thousands" huh? oooookaaay...
:dunce:

"Your quickness to label an entire culture as "sub-human" because they've executed (to date) four people,"

Again, I said no such thing. (But you already knew that.) The people whom I called "sub-human" are the individuals who cut the heads off those people. That's gotta be a total of less than 20 people, even if it's a different group in each video. I made no mention of any entire culture of people nor did I imply that, my words were crystal clear. Ah, but you knew what I meant, I don't need to explain this to you.

" even though as governor of Texas, your president executed 150 persons, including juveniles and the mentally retarded."

My President? So he must be my president because I speak out against decapitation? Is being against what these people did a disqualifier for the Democratic party or a disqualifier to be anything but a Bush supporter? You've got it too wrong to even realize how wrong you've got it.

Heyo

For reference:
Why would you assume you know who I did or would vote for just because I refer to as "criminals" people who would hold innocent civilians captive, watch as their family member tearfully plead for their loved ones lives on international television, then cut off that living human being's head on videotape and proudly show it to others?

Do you have to be of a certain political persuasion to call such extreme cruelty and inhumanity exactly what it is?

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

173. Do you like the view?

I mean, with your head up your ass and all.

"They are sub-human savages" You did write that, didn't you? And I couldn't help but notice that for all your meticulous phrasing (who the hell am I kidding -- I was too bored to read much past the third paragraph), I couldn't help but notice that you never actually denied having voted for Bush.

[Heyo]

174. Another forehead slapper....

The question was not that I used the term sub-human savages.. the question was WHO I used the term in reference to. That would be the *individuals* who cut off the heads of their hostages, not the entire culture.

Still trying to figure out how you accused me of saying some outlandish things I would never say, then won't face up to it, but it's ME who's head is up my ass.

I challenge you to find in my post where I called for #1 the "slaughter untold thousands of innocents" or #2 where I "label an entire culture as "sub-human"

Are we reading and writing in the same language here?

"(who the hell am I kidding -- I was too bored to read much past the third paragraph)"

Well, that's an easy way to get out of facing up to a point by point debate.

Also, by the way I did not vote at all in the last election. not for political reasons, though. (long story) I am registered as independent.

You never did answer my original question by the way, regarding the fact that you said I was a Bush supporter because I condemned the beheadings so strongly. Don't Dems do that too?

Not trying to be hostile or anything, just trying to figure out where you're coming from.

Heyo

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

175. Here's where I'm coming from...

Take a good look, ace. Drink it in. The guy is holding the mangled remains of his daughter. Please believe me when I tell you that if that were me and if that were my kid, I'd be looking to behead somebody pretty damned quick. Multiply this picture by several thousands and you have a glimpse into the rage of the Iraqi people.

They suffered decades of being pawns of the Cold War, being cannon fodder for Saddam in the Gulf War and in Desert Storm. And now we're "liberating" them by murdering their kids and imposing an "interim government" of total strangers who will inevitably kowtow to the same people who spent a decade starving them to death, followed by the indiscriminate shelling their villages and towns.

Do I condemn beheading? Of course I do, but your recent post exhibits a deplorable lack of even the basic understanding of how Iraq became what it is today. If the insurgents are "monsters" then they are monsters that American foreign policy helped to create.

[Heyo]

179. I have seen this picture before....

And being that this is a horrifying image, aren't we going for LESS of this type of thing taking place, and not more?

This is why I condemn the beheadings so strongly. It seems like during a time, now, when the major fighting is over, and everybody seems to have the goal in mind of fixing the damage done to the Iraqi people by the last 20 years of their lives or so and helping them stand on their own 2, *except* this group of people, who are not even Iraqis mostly, who are still HELL BENT on continuing the death and destruction. I'm not excusing the death of civilians any more than you are excusing the beheadings.

If that was my kid, sure I'd be out to behead some people too. But you know what, this guy holding the girl isn't beheading anyone. This picture, as tragic as it is, doesn't excuse all the non-Iraqis beheading people who are not even military. Is using this girls picture as an excuse to mangle more people the same way doing anyone any good?

What we're seeing with the hostage taking and be-heading has *nothing* to do with the "rage of the Iraqis." The people doing it couldn't care LESS about the lives of the Iraqis. Their success depends on the Iraqi state NOT succeeding, it depends on their lives being miserable. The only interests they have are their OWN.

Heyo

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

180. Are you always this dense?

"Everybody seems to have goal in mind of fixing the damaage done to the Iraqi people...and helping them to stand on their own."

U.S. foreign policy is one of the principle causes of the damage done to Iraq during the past twenty years. Saddam gassed his own people? Guess who sold him the gas! Tens of thousands of Iraqi troops died battling Iran because the United States wanted a buffer between Islamic fundamentalists and the Saudi and Kuwaiti oil fields. Are you getting the picture, sonny? The Iraqi people hate Saddam only slightly more than they hate us, and with Saddam gone, all their rage is focused on the United States.

And how are we helping the Iraqi's to "stand on their own" by torturing them indiscriminately (according to the Red Cross, up to 90% of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib were victims of mistaken identity) and by installing a puppet regime that a) can't pass any laws that Karl Rove doesn't like and b) can't control the actions of 135,000 foreign troops on their soil and c) has announced that it might impose martial law (with whose army, do you suppose?) at some point in the future.

Finally...

"Their success depends on the Iraqi state NOT succeeding, it depends on their lives being miserable. They only interests they have are their own"

Or, to put it another way...

"The recent violence - and attacks on Iraq's critical infrastructure -- underscore that freedom in Iraq is opposed by violent men who seek the failure not only of the interim government, but of all progress toward liberty"

The second quote comes directly from the the Republican National Committee's website. A couple of posts back I mentioned your uncanny ability to repeat Republican talking points.

[Heyo]

182. You keep on responding to everything...

...other than what I've said. Which is a pettern here.

Instead you blame the U.S. for everything bad that has happened all the way back to the war with Iran, which was started over territory. (which you know) Do you even remember what the original discussion was about? You're too busy calling me "danse" and saying I have my head up my ass. Alot of good that does.

So you found a quote from the RNC website that sounds like what I said, good for you. I have never viewed the RNC website in my entire life. But if it's easier on your mind to think I am a republican, go for it.

Meanwhile you just repeated every left wing talking point there is...

Let's talk about Abu Ghraib again, there we go, drag that one out and dust it off for another go around.

Have fun.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

184. This is Democratic Underground...

We have a tendency to embrace left-wing philosophy around these parts.

And since you seem incapable of understanding the history and culture of Iraq (at least any farther back than last year) and the effects of that history and culture on the Bush Administration's disastrous Middle East policy, and since I really don't have the time to instruct you in the basics -- far less the subtleties -- of the subject, let's just agree to disagree.

[Ripley]

177. You simply don't have the facts...

You said above: If they really wanted the occupation to end.. they would help rebuild the country which is the fastest way to get the troops out and end the occupation.

1. Help who rebuild the country? US? How would they do that when 90% of the Iraqi's are unemployed as they watch truckloads of Americans come in with supplies made outside Iraq give to the foreign workers to rebuild. Which Iraqi's should they join in "rebuilding."

2. Your last statement shows you really aren't paying attention. We have no plans of bringing our troops home. Wolfowitz told Congress just last week we would be there for decades. So who are you fooling?

3. Before you accuse me and everyone else here of loving the terrorists and condoning the beheadings, get a grip on what is really happening. The world is not black and white. I can be appalled equally by the hostage situation and the American soldiers killing civilians to this day. The complexity of the hornet's nest stirred by the neocons was not an accident...it was deliberate in order to draw outrage by Americans, thus continued support of their War without End for Greed.

Wake up.

[Tight_rope]

141. American Military troops...that's what I call them!

"the people arming vehicles with explosives which murder children and innocent bystanders are CRIMINALS. What would you call them?" American Military troops...that's what I call them!

"I don't know what I would do if another country invaded the US. And since it will never happen, it is pointless to debate." I don't know where you have been for the past 3 1/2 years, but let me update you. The US was invaded on September 11, 2001. And the country has been debating this attack since.

So please drink a cup of coffee so you can wake up. And when you do wake up please don't turn on any US TV news, especially Faux news(FOX news). Try BBC or some other foreign news media. While you were sleeping the American news media were corrupted with the Bushco virus!

[Ludicrous]

145. Oh My!

The insurgents in Iraq are actually American Military! I had no idea!
<I will certainly be checking BBC as you suggest so I can learn the truth about this>
Does the BBC have names or photos of the American criminals?
Has the BBC notified the C.O.'s so the criminals can be apprehended and court martialed? Horrifying to think that Americans would use Suicide Bomb strategy! I wonder why the Suicide Bombers aren't counted as part of the US Daily Death Toll?

What about the ones taking hostages and beheading folks... are they Americans too? Is that why they always have their faces hidden?

The US was attacked on September 11, 2001, not invaded.
Last time I checked, me and everyone else I have encountered are all still living as free Americans. Please read the post I was responding to, so you don't take my comment out of context.
The previous poster asked "what would if do if...<hypothetical impossible scenario>"

[Tight_rope]

139. I think DU needs to start drug-screening some of you new folks!

"Iraqis imposing Iraqi law on Iraqi criminals". Please tell me that some freepeer is holding a gun to your head and making you type such trash.

[Ludicrous]

140. No really,

Isn't that a good thing? Isn't that what we want? If no, what do we want for the Iraqis?

Please explain how "Iraqis imposing Iraqi law on Iraqi criminals" is wrong.

[absolutezero]

104. the official tranfer was june 30

not nov 30, our military is still there, the only difference is that bremer is gone and the iraqi government is going to be taking responsibility for any screw ups
i'm under the impression that this is some form of damage control to counter F911 making 22 million dollars this weekend, or that its an attempt to cut short plans of an attack during the massive ceremony that bush* was supposed to attend

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

119. That was a typo...

Meant June 30th.

[liveoaktx]

62. What:? No *Mission Accomplished* Photo op to haunt him later after

Iraq has declared martial law?

[Maeve]

64. Bremer's out before the fan gets hit and the Iraqis are the new targets

We don't count Iraqi deaths in this war, remember.

What I keep thinking of is the scene in "Blazing Saddles" when the preacher says "Yer on your own!"

[floda]

71. the beheadings deadlines

might have to do with the decision to hand over the power now.
3 Turkish and one American hostage. The deadlines expire on or close to 30 th June. It would overshadow all other news.

[Ripley]

72. But the beheaders aren't dumb.

Why won't they just move their "deadline" up earlier too?

Frankly, I think something big is about to happen there...a concerted military assault on the capital or a base. Why else would they do this and also the Congressional detail that was supposed to go there cancelled yesterday due to "security concerns."

[Ludicrous]

91. Did you really mean that?

"But the beheaders aren't dumb."

Yeah. Hostage-taking and murdering - very smart strategy. And it's working so well!

[Ripley]

108. So you think they are dumb?

Let's see, causing chaos and such an outrageous level of "security problems" that Amererican Congressmen can't fly into the country and the handover has been "moved up." Seems like it's working exactly as they want it to work.

Wouldn't the beheaders be failing if security was better? Do you think only "good" people are "smart?" Do you think Hitler was dumb?

[Ludicrous]

118. Look in the mirror

There are "security problems" in every Major city in the US.
Here in NY there are neighborhoods where even the Mayor will not venture (he calls them "No Man's Land), let alone Congressmen.
I contend that more Americans die at the hands of other Americans on a daily basis than are killed in Iraq on a daily basis.

And you're wrong: it's not working exactly as they want it to work. If it was, their demands would be met.

And the way I see it, the terrorists are failing because security IS better (not perfect - but better). I think the terror attacks would be even more widespread if what you say were true: "it's working exactly as they want it to work."

I don't know if only "good" people are "smart?"
But I do know that trying to seize power through terrorism is a plan doomed to fail.

Do you think the beheaders are "righteous"?
It seems like you admire them and their tactics?

Hitler was insane.

[Ripley]

127. Maybe you should stop putting words in my mouth.

I never admired them. I simply said they are not dumb. I guess you are too blinded by your agreement with Wolfowitz and Smirky saying "It's great over there!" to actually read what I posted.

And pray tell, which American city has security problems like Iraq!!! Where are people being shot at, blown up and simply afraid to go to the store?

[Tight_rope]

166. WHO LET THIS FREEPER IN HERE!

Just like a freeper to come in to try to create chaos and confusion. Go back to the free Republic.

[Neecy]

73. pfffft

So much for pomp and circumstances...Bremer chucks a folder at someone in a poorly-lit room and takes off.

The whole thing is a sham anyway, so why make it a dignified ceremony?

The uninformed American people are going to think that this somehow takes us off the hook. Give it a couple of weeks, when our people are still dying, our tax dollars are still being poured in by the billions, and they'll be (as usual) dazed, confused, and 'cheated'. This fakery is only going to misfire, as usual, on the incompetent nitwits running our country. Transferring a folder is somehow symbolic of who is really going to be running (and looting) Iraq.

[ewagner]

76. Did you see Browkaw on MSNBC?

Just saw him a few minutes after 8AM CDT. The anchor lady asked him if he interviewed Bremer. He said he did,at the airport, and Bremmer was in the "Get out of Dodge" mode. (His words).

Politically the early handover makes sense. The specified date was a magnet for attacks which would have created far too many negative photo ops for the administration. Attacks won't end but there won't be a symbolic affair to mar with attacks.

[The_Casual_Observer]

151. After 100's of billions this whole thing is a fucking disgrace

Bremer sneeks out after a "handoff" witnessed by a half dozen ex patriot
Iraqi criminals. Pretty shabby deal, I don't know how they are going to try and spin this one up.

[Spazito]

74. I bet the USSC is going to hand down it's rulings on the three cases...

today and the bush administration is going to lose all three. If they do hand them down, I wonder if the sped-up handover is due to legal problems that would arise for the bush admin if they were still the "occupiers" of Iraq when the Court announces?

[Junkdrawer]

77. ---Or--- The Supremes OK "Enemy Combatant" and the news is buried...

by The (underhanded) Hand Over.

[Ludicrous]

95. Breaking News

Supreme Court: Bush Can Hold U.S. Citizen Without Charges

[Spazito]

96. It is being reported as a partial victory but no details yet....

will be interesting to read a more indepth report when it is out. When the news say "partial" it often means there is also bad news for the bush admin in the ruling.

[Bridget Burke]

102. And that makes you so very happy.

Why do you hate America?

[Just Me]

106. Why does your post report stay at "10"?

Weird.

BTW - SCOTUS rulings were essentially AGAINST Busholini & co.

[MallRat]

80. Actually, it was a smart move.

Barring any new developments in today's news cycle (i.e., Bush defeats in the USSC, Plame indictments?), I will have to admit that this was a surprisingly selfless act on behalf of the Administration.

For once (and perhaps the only time), it would seem that the Bushies have actually forgone an obvious photo-op-- a transfer ceremony with parades and marching bands with all the pomp and circumstance-- and put public safety above PR. There is no doubt in my mind that June 30th was going to be an extraordinarily bloody day in Iraq- transferring power 2 days early may force the various terrorist factions to re-evaluate their strategy.

An example of what the Bush administration gave up here: if you assume that there would not have been a major terror attack, a formal ceremony on June 30th would likely have pushed the various hostage situations out of the news cycle. Instead, ABC had them as the second story of the morning, just 10 minutes into GMA.

Like I said, for an Administration which is so concerned with controlling message and scoring publicity points whereever they can, this was unusually selfless.

Just my two cents.

And yes, I reserve the right to change my mind if other news develops...

-MR

[Bridget Burke]

85. How "selfless" to sacrifice a photo-op!

That "Mission Accomlished" thing worked out so well.

Didn't it?

[Jack Rabbit]

89. Selfless my foot

The neoconservatives assert that Iraq was invaded to bring democracy to that country and to make it self-governing. They claim that they care about the Iraqi people and want to make them free and prosperous. According to them, the invasion is a selfless act of American good will and the world should be grateful for their and Mr. Bush’s leadership.

Horsespucky.

If one wants to believe the fable that the invasion and occupation of Iraq is a selfless act, then one should only consider that when American troops entered Baghdad they allowed hospitals and museums to be looted but secured the oil ministry. What does that indicate about their priorities? Even before the invasion, reconstruction contracts were being awarded to the Bush administration's favorite corporate contributors.

Among the most outrageous prevarications the Bush administration has made concerning its misadventure in Iraq is that a nation with no control over 160,000 foreign troops on its soil, a head of government whose office depends more on a foreign power than on the people and a legislative body with no authority to change laws imposed on it by a foreign power is somehow sovereign.

[MallRat]

94. WTF?!?! I didn't say THE INVASION WAS SELFLESS!!!

Please, PLEASE read more carefully.

WHERE DID I SAY AN ILLEGAL INVASION AND A PREEMPTIVE WAR BASED ON LIES AND DECEIT WAS A SELFLESS ACT?!?! You're preaching to choir with me, Jack.

C'mon. Do you think I would be here if I thought this war was a GOOD IDEA?

-MR

[Jack Rabbit]

178. Sorry. Perhaps I misread your post.

However, there was nothing selfless in the either holding the ceremonies two days ahead of schedule for security purposes or in the handover of "sovereignty" itself. In fact, no sovereignty has been turned over, which is why June 30 was an easy date to reach.

Much of my reaction is more like Spentastic's (see post 86, below). Otherwise, in my usually windy fashion, I have this to say.

[MallRat]

92. OK. Perhaps "selfless" is too strong a word.

How about "surprisingly not-so-douchebaglike?"

But you have a good point... maybe they finally see the shit hitting the fan, so the more low-key they play it, the better for them.

Then again, this administration has such a tin ear when it comes to what's appropriate, I would be shocked if they actually thought this through. The "Mission Accomplished" fiasco didn't stop Rove from orchestrating the "Man to Mars" disaster.

They love ceremony. They love an opportunity to put Bush (or his surrogates) forward as figurehead: emote strength and speak very little. I'm just surprised that Rove resisted the temptation.

-MR

[Corby]

136. I concur, kinda.

I'm surprised they gave up the photo-op, but I can only speculate on the motive. Security concerns had to be on their minds. A sneaky handover is better press for them than hundreds of dead Iraqis, including government ministers, on Iraq Independence Day.

Maybe they just wanted to screw Brokaw, Rather and Jennings.

[Spentastic]

86. I disagree

This is not a selfless act at all. It's a measure of the corner into which the lizards have been driven. There could have been no photo op. It has gone too far. There would have been wall to wall death and destruction.

The only option available to Bushco was to abandon a proper transfer in order that the ongoing violence looks like an Iraqi problem.

Selfless? Nope, just selfish as usual. Watch as the Iraqi interim government drowns in the blood of their countrymen.

[Barkley]

111. MallRat, you make some very good points, thanks!

Bushco relies on photo ops images like the "Mission Accomplished" and the Thanksgiving (plastic) turkey because their actual policies are utterly disaterous.

We also have to remember, that the Bush photo-ops are not meant for people like us on the DU, but to rally Bush backers and undecided people who really don't have time to get all of the information.

[Jack Rabbit]

81. Gee, I had to send revisions to the article I submitted over the weekend

It changes June 30 to Monday and some future tense to past or present progressive.

Oh, well.

[Mace]

84. this could be bad for kerry

if the insurgents do calm down after the handover of power then the war could gain more optimism with the people and see bush as a liberator.

[monarch]

90. I refuse to look at this as good or

bad for Kerry. I, and every DUer I've known for more than three years, looks at developments of this magnitude in light of whether it will prove to be good or bad for this country and Iraq. Cynicism -- and that is all that its is-- is not a hope that things will go bad.

[diplomats]

98. We'll have to see what happens

but many stories I've read predict an increase in violence and a possible civil war.

[average_american]

100. Give it a little time

When the dust settles I predict there will be a large amount of nationwide chaos as the "insurgents" test their new boundaries. We just have to keep stating the truth: Bush promised the Iraqis an elected government before the US handed over power. That didn't happen. These people aren't free to govern themselves. Heck, they aren't even making payments on their own debt, or providing security for their own people. What kind of independent government is that?

From the lack of dancing in the streets, I'd say the Iraqis weren't fooled. Neither was I.

[Gregorian]

93. Yeah. After siphoning all of the gas out of their tank!

I can see it-

A gang of thugs knocks on the door and beats the shit out of everyone in the house. They tell everyone that if they so much as say anything threatening, they'll lock them up in their gang's clubhouse. They take the car and go around the neighborhood stealing from everyone. They go on a joyride, taking all of the money out of the family's bank account, leaving them bankrupt. After driving the car back, they take everything of value out of the car. But only after siphoning the gas out. What a nice gesture. "Oh, and by the way- here's yer car!"

[rocktivity]

133. This is either a weapon of mass distraction or a legal manuever

F 9/11 is #1 at the box office, the Plame indictments are on the way. Either that, or Georgie is trying to wash his hands of the whole thing, or it's some kind of legal/political way to get out of being held accountable for something else that's going on.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Heyo]

169. I think it's...

..just to thwart attacks that were surely planned for that day.

Which is a smart move if it saves lives.

Heyo

[aaronarnwine]

147. Bush's True Motives Revealed in Secret Memo from Rice to Bush

[The_Casual_Observer]

183. How cute!

Did chimp know how to spell "Reign"?

[Frangible]

148. But this is not true sovereignty

The US military still has full autonomous power. The troops aren't coming home. The insurgents aren't winding down.

A good first step perhaps, but in the end, we'll still have more death and a government that the Iraqis see as a "puppet".

[sampsonblk]

149. Bush will get a bump from this...

proving my point for the past several months: the war trumps all other issues, despite what people say in the polls. When everything is calm, people say other issues are more important. But when something happens over there, it always takes top priority.

This is why Kerry HAS to start campaigning about the war. Otherwise, Bush can wait till the weekend before the election and stage some huge (concocted) new Iraq event, and there goes the damn election.

[The_Casual_Observer]

152. Not after the inevitable next round of "insurgent" attacks.

Don't forget, the only difference is that Bremer is out of country. NOTHING else has changed. bush boy has failed at everything, so why should this be any different.

[sampsonblk]

155. Oh yeah

I agree. The bump will last only a day or two. In a close election, all he needs to do is hoodwink enough people for that amount of time.

I am thinking he will claim Al Qaeda is going to attack pro-GOP targets. That should swing it enough in his favor, unless Kerry starts to get after him early enough on foreign policy and specifically the point that Moore made about Bush's deceptions.

[daleo]

153. I guess they didn't want to be targets

But sneaking around behind the peoples' backs is not going to add to the new government's credibility. Not that they had any.

Also, I still wonder if their is some obscure timing issue for the handover, that will ensure Saddam's trial can be kept under wraps.

[seafan]

154. Randi Rhodes just said (Monday, June 28, 3:30 p.m.)....

that she thinks this *early* handover of sovereignty is related to:

1. $20 billion (I think... a LARGE SUM anyway) dollars from Iraqi oil sales are now *missing*. Bremer left via helicopter (she wonders whether HIS baggage was checked...lol)

2. The missing U. S. Marine now being held is due to be *executed* tomorrow.

3. It gives Bush a good reason *not* to have to hang around until the 30th...especially in view of #2 above...



All this is just incredible.

[daleo]

157. One other thing about this phony sneaky handover

The BFEE betrays itself with this move, showing that it expects this whole invasion, occupation and transfer of power to be temporary. Otherwise, it would have had a proper ceremony. After all, this is supposed to be the founding (or re-founding) of a nation, a day that should be replayed and remembered for decades or centuries by a grateful population. Instead, they have a sneaky handover, done behind closed doors, from a military dictator to a quisling. You can't put lipstick on this pig - it will be a mark of deep shame to Iraqis until such time as they can overthrow these puppets.

Imagine if July 4th was honoring a sneaky little deal between Benedict Arnold and King George, brokered behind closed doors in a British military garrison. Would there be genuine support for fireworks and brass bands on the Fourth? More likely annual shows of rebellion. That is how Iraqis will see this thing, until they can get rid of it and replace it with something indigenous. It is deeply insulting and shameful to people to have a foreign power foist a government upon them, even one with good intentions (although I don't say that is true here). Look at eastern Europe. Those populations waited 50 years to overthrow governments that the Soviets had foisted upon them, but when they got their chance, they did it.

[moondust]

161. Delete.

[Justitia]

163. Just saw the lovenotes being passed during class

between Bush and Condi. He wrote back to her "Let Freedom Reign", uh, isn't the correct reference "Let Freedom Ring"????

Give me a donut if I got it right!

edit: I got it right, and the Thief-in-Chief is yet a further embarrassment (as if that were possible).
He just has that whole "reign" concept at the forefront of his pea-brain.

Where's my donut?

[Tight_rope]

164. What an insult to MLK that that comment would come outta his mouth!

MLK would definately have disapproved of Bush and if he were alive would be insulted that Bush was mocking such a profound quote.

Bush is classless. He has no sense of originality. Always trying to quoting what many proud and stately people have said in the pass. And fucking it up all the while, either by misquoting them or using the quote out of context.

DUBYA is such a fuckup!:spank:

[Swamp Rat]

167. Don't watch Michael Moore's movie!!! Don't even mention its success!!!

Let's everybody talk about the "Great Handover!"

Yaay! Bush is our hero and he's reeeel smart too! Even Kissinger says Bush is great. See?

Whooopie! Now we can blow stuff up and it will be the Irakeys fault for having bad security and not loving American freedom fries!

Suggestion: Whenever someone, i.e. in the line at the supermarket, starts talking about the "handover," instead talk about Moore's movie. Steer the conversation away from the propaganda.

[pinniped]

170. In a nutshell...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20040629/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

Iraqis Regain Sovereignty Two Days Early

10 minutes ago

By ROBERT H. REID, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraq (news - web sites)'s new leaders reclaimed their nation two days early, accepting limited power Monday from U.S. occupiers, who wished them prosperity and handed them a staggering slate of problems — including a lethal insurgency the Americans admit they underestimated.
------
more:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=1&u=/ap/20040629/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
------

We are taking your oil and we're not sorry for killing thousands of your countrymen and countrywomen. Many more are destined to die but thanks for continuously making our rich people richer and fuck you very much.

[Politicub]

171. This reminds me of Clinton signing

DOMA in the dead of night.

[Seabiscuit]

172. So what will the new Iraqi flag look like???

The light blue and white colors that all Arabs associate with Israel, and which has been proposed through the Ultra-Zionist Wolfowitz (Gringott's Goblin) and accepted by the * administration???

I'm going to be watching whatever news sources I can to find out what their new flag's going to look like, becuase I have every reason to believe it will be extremely offensive to average Iraqi's, not to mention Muslims everywhere.

This friggin' idiots don't have a clue about anything!

[happyslug]

181. Some data on Moon Rise and Sets for the next week:

Note: The next week is the best time for a night time attack, Attack after dark. Night Vision goggles work best with full moonlight and in A GROUND ATTACK, it is easier to see ditches and other ground empediments when the moon is out. Now if you are planning on a Air Attack the moon is NOT needed, modern night Vision Goggles can provide enough vision for air operations (you do not have to worry about ditches looking like solid ground becasue no light is coming from the ditch). Thus Ground attacks still perfer to attack at night with a full moon.

U.S. Naval Observatory
Astronomical Applications Department

Sun and Moon Data for One Day

The following information is provided for (longitude E44.3, latitude N33.3):

Tuesday
29 June 2004 Universal Time + 3h

SUN
Begin civil twilight 04:27
Sunrise 04:56
Sun transit 12:06
Sunset 19:16
End civil twilight 19:45

MOON
Moonrise 14:54 on preceding day
Moonset 01:45
Moonrise 16:07
Moon transit 21:20
Moonset 02:27 on following day



Phase of the Moon on 29 June: waxing gibbous with 86% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.

Full Moon on 2 July 2004 at 14:09 (Universal Time + 3h).



Where to get Moon and Sun Rise/set Data for any location:
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.html

Latitude and Longitude for Baghdad
44 Degrees, 23 Mionites 38 Seconds East
33 Degree 20 Minutes, 19 Seconds North

Moon Sun Rise/Set for June 29yh, 2004:
http://gnswww.nima.mil/geonames/Gazetteer/Search/GazFrame.jsp