US forces, hit by raids, fault their Iraqi allies

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/01/us_forces_hit_by_raids_fault_their_iraqi_allies?mode=PF

The Humvees were speeding through the dark city when a heart-stopping boom brought the convoy lurching to a halt. Red sparks cartwheeled into the sky. The Marines ran through a dust cloud and found four comrades bleeding from a roadside bomb.

The bomb, buried outside an Iraqi National Guard headquarters, marked the third time in 10 days that US troops in the capital of the country's most violent province had been attacked under the noses of Iraqi security forces, whose cooperation is crucial to their success. Three days before, on July 21, scores of guerrillas fired rifles and rocket-propelled grenades from rooftops near National Guard buildings, sparking a street battle that drew in more than a battalion of US forces, and that killed 25 insurgents.

Marines in Ramadi are fighting the toughest urban warfare in Iraq and are taking on perhaps the most delicate diplomacy, working with Iraqi counterparts whom they don't always trust, while trying to lower their profile in a city that wants them out. Their experiences show the challenges that US troops face when they stay closely engaged in a hub of resistance, a scenario that may arise elsewhere as fighting heats up in cities like Samarra and Baqubah.

<snip>

Marines on the front lines haven't lost the stomach for the fight; in battle, they say, they feel most sure of their mission. But nearly unanimously, they say they can neither interact with Iraqis the way they had expected when they arrived with orders to win ''hearts and minds," nor can they deal a knockout blow to guerrillas.

Read down the article - Iraqis know when bases are to mortared, block off side streets, get civilians out - don't tell Marines. They tunnel under pavement right across street from Iraqi National Guard building to place IED. Marine humvee comes along - boom. Damn, don't tell me this isn't Vietnam redux!

[Karenina]

1. Is it time to get out yet?

:shrug:

[0007]

3. It is time to bring the troops home.

[saigon68]

14. Soon

Pretty soon

[HysteryDiagnosis]

2. Hearts and minds

>>Marines on the front lines haven't lost the stomach for the fight; in battle, they say, they feel most sure of their mission. But nearly unanimously, they say they can neither interact with Iraqis the way they had expected when they arrived with orders to win ''hearts and minds," nor can they deal a knockout blow to guerrillas.<<

Sometimes the only way to win... is to not play the game. Ask GW... he decided to not play in Vietnam...

[Disturbed]

4. Unless the Election is stolen or Martial Law- Red Alert

Kerry/Edwards will inherit Iraq and Afganistan, both quamires.

[The Shadow]

5. Sounds Like Vietnam and the ARVN.

When we were in Vietnam the South Vietnamese military really couldn't be counted on either.

[Bob3]

6. I remember this from John Herr's Dispatches

"Throw the candy to the ARVN
gather them around
then grab your 20 Mikey-Mike
and mow the bastards down"

you can never trust hired guns.

[daleo]

7. Imperialist armies can never really trust the locals

One of the oldest truths about empires.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

10. But what if....

the real goal of the imperialists is not to control and influence their economy? Not to set up puppets... former CIA assets... yes men... what if they allowed them to actually call the shots? How would it go then?

What if the imperialists didn't condone and sign off on torture.. what if they protected more than just their oil ministry... what if the government they overthrew was NEVER supported by the imperialists?

What if we just went after the terrorists.... and not nations... would we appear as having just a tad more credibility in the world? What if all the oil was in Canada... just where would we be fighting right now?

[daleo]

13. Good questions.

I don't know if there are many (or any) examples of imperialist powers that acted the way you suggest. I doubt if altruism has ever had much to do with empire building, but on occasions the empire has brought benefits that might have been seen as a reasonable trade-off by many. The relative peace and security of the Roman Empire or the Victorian British Empire has been seen this way by some. Of course, the people exploited by both empires wouldn't have been all that likely to agree.

[number6]

8. 1 2 3 4, what are we fighten for ? don't ask me, I don't give

a damn, were off to Iraq-nam ....

[xchrom]

9. any body feel welcome yet?

[JSJ]

11. the iraqi resistance has better fighters and won't surrender

After all, they have their very existance and that of their children on the line. As fighters against the Americans (and military intelligence, which targets families of the fighters), their futures are doubtful unless they repel totally the American invaders.

[saigon68]

12. ITS IRAQ-NAM

"BRING EM ON" screeched the AWOL CHIMPANZEE

[slojim240]

15. That's right, fault the people you want to cover your back.

Just like an American attitude.