Couple Kicked Off Flight Over Risque Shirt

[Rose Siding]

MIAMI -- A couple returning home from a Costa Rican vacation was ejected from an American Airlines flight because the man was wearing a T-shirt depicting a bare breast.

Oscar Arela and his girlfriend were removed from Flight 952 on Saturday after he refused to change the shirt or turn it inside out at Miami International Airport.

The couple, who were making a connecting flight, said nobody on their earlier flight objected to the shirt and claimed the airline violated their constitutional right to free speech.

"It's a picture of a man and woman, and the woman's breast is showing," said his girlfriend, Tala Tow. "The flight attendant basically walked up to us and yelled, 'You have to take off that shirt right now.'"

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-brf-airline-improper-attire,0,4461519.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

[prodigal_green]

1. the girlfriend should have said

They sell porn in airports. Nuff said.

[tlcandie]

14. So, does that mean they can't read these on the airplane either?

As in unfolding the centerfold and drooling over it? That would mean no Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Editions either I suppose.

You know we are all offended by something, but I don't think it's our job to tell people what they can or can't wear or read. And I'm surely not the fashion police!

So, if this isn't okay then where do you draw the line? I mean to me one of the most offensive things is for men to scratch and play with their balls; scratch and dig at their asses; and pick their noses like there's no tomorrow. I guess we could also throw in farting and belching in here along with horrendous body odor; overly large, as in moving over into my seat to fit into their seat; horrible bad breath. People smelling like overly filled dirty ashtrays that make me want to puke while I get out my allergy and nose meds. Same with going overboard on the colognes and such. Dipping!!!! YUCK! NOW these are the things that drive me bonkers and I can't get away from them!

Clothes and books, I can turn my head and not look. Some of the above you can do the same, but not all of it.

I think that just like with Janet's boob, it won't kill anyone. Besides we need a healthier attitude about breasts in this country anyway!

[LiberalVoice]

2. Oh don't get your titties in a twist...

no pun intended...:P

[jdj]

3. Sounds like the cover of 'Buckingham/Nicks', Stevie and

Lindsay's first album.

[nosmokes]

4. who needs box cutters?

terrorist acts with a nipple.

yumping yiminy.

[markses]

5. Not for nothing

But people used to have some respect for themselves when they flew on jets: they dressed well for a flight.

Not that I was around, mind you, but a little nostalgia once in a while can help us live better. Why is it imperative that every schmuck run around looking like a schmuck? It ain't a class thing, it seems to me: working class people also used to have respect for their own appearance.

Now, I don't agree with the man being thrown off the plane, but really, now. Too much to ask some people that they don't go around looking like they just stepped out of their cousins bachelor party when they travel?

[gristy]

7. I'm completely with you, but...

the last time I expressed what you're saying on DU, I got flamed for it. We'll see what happens this time...

[BOHICA06]

11. An airliner could require

coat and tie for men and skirt/dress for women just like some restaurants. May not stay in business to long, but legally they would be fine.

[Jacobin]

10. I'm with you

I suppose I could wear a T-shirt on a plane with a big giant erect dick painted on it and whine when asked to remove it, too.

I mean some basic sense of decorum on a crowded aluminum tube hurtling through the atmosphere does not appear to be out of line.

[customerserviceguy]

13. I guess this is completely aside of the "breast shirt" issue

but as for people wearing appropriate attire on aircraft, let's remember that this passenger was coming from Costa Rica. I'm sure fairly casual dress was more appropriate than dressing like Ward Cleaver.

I haven't had the misfortune to fly since 9/11, but one of my Networking instructors did so a mere six months later. We asked him how his three day trip had been when we all got back to school, and he replied, "Next time I fly, I'm going to the airport naked!" We got his point, loose fitting clothing might make the lines go faster.

It's not a dignified experience to fly anyway, they treat you like crap at the airport and on the plane, when they start weighing passengers, it will officially be less dignified than riding a rush hour bus with broken air conditioning. Why not let people be comfortable while they're being unduly delayed?

[progressivebydesign]

15. For what it's worth.. I'm with you.

I do tire of the crassness that's seeped into our daily life. I imagine in big cities, not on the West Coast, people still dress for dinner, etc. Out here in the West.. you can't get people to dress for church, let alone an flight. If my husband wore a shirt like that, I'd have some serious reservations about him. I'm not a big fan of crassness. I'm tired of seeing people spitting on the street, I'm tired of crass t-shirts, and I"m soooo tired of backwards hats o 30 year old men. Other than that? I'm okay with the world...

[nodehopper]

16. there is a difference between taste/aesthetic and rights

You may think it's in bad taste, but he has the right to service regardless of what kind of shirt he wears.

Also, why should people dress a certain way that you find appropriate? I like to dress in my crappiest, most comfortable old clothes when I fly--flying is terrible for me anyway without worrying about anything except maximizing my comfort.

[markses]

17. You must have missed the part in my post where I said

"Now, I don't agree with the man being thrown off the plane, but really, now."

I'm perfectly aware of the distinction between aesthetic and rights. I'm making a plea for aesthetics. Nobody's gonna take away your flip flops, tang-top, and pleated shorts, brothah.

[BOHICA06]

22. No right to service

from the article:

Wagner noted on American's Web site the policy clearly states that someone who is "clothed in a manner that would cause discomfort or offense to other passengers" can be removed from a flight.

As long as service refusal is not based on race, religion, sex, marital status, national origin, political affiliation, and maybe sexual orientation (not sure on the last one) - there is no rights infringement.

[progressivebydesign]

60. There used to be, and still may be dress codes for airplanes...

..I remember seeing that as recent as a few years ago. You know, you're right.. why should anyone care what other people think? Why don't we all just do and wear what we want? It's a free country. Based upon what I've seen in the past few years, most people really don't care if they're seen as ill-mannered, offensive, louts. I really did like things better (even less than 10 years ago) when the country wasn't so rude. When your major entertainment in this country is all about rude and obnoxious.. all the little sheep are happy to emulate. I was in Hollywood long enough to realize that when the 20 something guys now controlled our entertainment, things went downhill fast...

Comfortable clothes? Cool. I'm all for that. Clothes that pretty much sexually offend an entire gender? Not cool.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

33. Good Lord! What next? Uniforms with little NeoCon armbands?...

Who the heck are you to pass judgement on what anyone wears on a plane flight?

[markses]

42. I am myself, and I can pass judgment on who I damn well please

Too bad for you.

[JohnLocke]

68. I hope that was sarcasm.

[TahitiNut]

37. And the airlines once provided human space for human beings, too.

Now it's sardines.

When the 'Jumbo' jets arrived on the airline scene, they had lounges and piano bars. In coach, too. Seats were wide and legroom was adequate for basketball players. You could yawn and stretch without breaking the nose of the person next to you. Hot meals were served on plates, with real tableware. There were twice as many flight attendants per passenger as today. And I'm only talking about the 50's and 60's.

Once upon a time, a passenger could actually recline without smelling the crotch of the passenger behind him or her. One could actually sleep.

When the airlines to treat people with respect and courtesy, then perhaps it'll be reciprocated. "The customer is always right!"

:eyes:


While you're tippy-toing down memory lane, try to remember when people went to a local movie theater wearing suits and dresses ... and could smoke in the Loge section.

[Piperay]

52. I agree

and like you I don't think they should have thrown the guy off the plane. I just think people could use some descretion and be considerate of others and use some taste when dressing. Nothing wrong with dressing comfortably so wearing a Tee shirt is fine but one with a bare body part on it is just tacky. x(

[psychopomp]

54. Context

They were just coming back from a vacation in Costa Rica--Mai Tai's and Margaritas on the beach, fresh fruit salad, awsome sunsets and great music, culture, etc. So they were feeling really laid back and wanted to keep the thing going, to keep that glow.

After returning from a good vacation in Costa Rica I might be flying home wearing the same thing (though I wouldn't,usually)...

But regarding plane travel, I do it so often that it's no more of a big deal than taking the bus. Tie not required.

[KansDem]

62. I agree...there's a time and place for everything...

As someone who works with the public, I'm constantly amazed at how little self-respect factors into everyday business encounters. I too have seen clothing like the one described above (or in which it looks like the person just crawled out of bed), heard "demands" instead of requests (c'mon folks, ever heard of "please" and "thank you?"), and encountered people who could, for some reason, never meet my eyes when talking with me.

I'm amazed at how people speak at times...It may just be me, but how a person speaks is more important to me than how that person looks. Clothing may be an economic factor, but speaking well transcends all socio-economic levels (And for cryin' out loud, take off the f*cking portable CD headphones and hang up the f*cking phone if you want to speak with me!)

It's a "respect" thing. Respect for yourself and others. If you want respect from others, you need to have respect for yourself.

[SammyWinstonJack]

67. You know, I agree!

"Too much to ask some people that they don't go around looking like they just stepped out of their cousins bachelor party when they travel?"

[BOHICA06]

6. Hostile working environment ....

Your boss can create it, your co-workers can create it, and your customers can create it.

If you have oversite over anyone of these and ignore the situation a court & lawyer can solve the problem. But, that's both expensive and not good for your career longevity.

So .... take off the shirt or don't fly!

[depakid]

8. Somehow I don't think this qualifies....

No reasonable person (nor court) would consider this to any way promote a hostile working environment... nice try, though.

[BOHICA06]

9. If a flight attendant ...

said that the shirt made him/her uncomfortable, management cannot tell them to get over it - management cannot afford to take that attitude. To do so, is to put the company in peril of lawsuit or at the very least to establish a pattern of disregard. Remember, it is the employee, particularly a female employee, that determines what is and what is not hostile/harassment.

[depakid]

23. You mistate the law

One instance of a peculiarly sensitive person being offended by what a customer is wearing most assuredly DOES NOT fall under the legal definition promoting a hostile working environment! Imagine the consequences if what you are saying was true...

Like many areas in law, the standard is not what an overly sensitive person finds offensive- but what a reasonable person does. Moreover, in order to constitute sexual harrassment- which is what the "hostile wortking environment" concept is designed to do- conduct has to be suffiently severe and pervasive to alter one's working conditions. A centerfold pinned to the wall might be said to do that; a glance of a breast on a customer's T-shirt would not.

[BOHICA06]

26. I do not mistate the law ...

what I am saying is that to permit this type of display to occur regularly, if it makes staff/employees uncomfortable in a sexual context, is the establishment of a hostile working environment. Therefore, the company must take action on the first and all subsequent occurances in order to establish a pattern of action rather than ignoring the potential problem.

The law in these cases is what you can convince a jury - the standard is about as set as jello. That's why a company better hop to when put on notice.

[depakid]

32. Actually, it wouldn't get to a jury

As a matter of law, a case like the one we're hypothetically discussing wouldn't make it passed summary judgment- if it got that far- and if you could find a lawyer to file it.

That having been said, employers have become hypersensitive these days, which leads to all sorts of absurdities... and sometimes bad publicity.

[BOHICA06]

34. On that we can agree n/t

[gatlingforme]

56. good point.

[rman]

57. if we'd ban everything that makes someone "uncomfortable"...

where would it end?
I mean, *anything* could make *someone* uncomfortable.

[BOHICA06]

58. Welcome to sexual harassment law

as viewed by the employer.

[mitchtv]

12. reasonable? says you

hostile working conditions is a perception. as an old friend once said"you right to bad taste ends at my line of vision"

[depakid]

25. A counter example

I personally find burkha's to be offensive. I think they are demeaning to women and an overt symbol of oppression. Nevertheless, at the Winco I shop in, there are several customers who routinely shop there always with their husbands are always in full burkha's. I'm talking the kind where you can't even see the woman's eyes.

So if I'm a checkout employee- and I get repeatedly subjected to customers wearing clothing that I believe is demeaning to women, do I have a case?

[BOHICA06]

31. No ....

because to refuse service would violate the civil rights of the burka wearer. So refusal of service and/or your feelings of offense cannot be based on race, religion ......... and so on, ending in disability. All covered in the Civil Rights Act of '64 or the Rehabilitation Act of '74 or the ADA.

[depakid]

35. Good point

but it doesn't settle the issue. Here's another example: Suppose I felt that high heels were demeaning to women- I personally know a woman who feels that way- or on the other hand suppose I was a man who's threatened and offended by women wearing slacks (there are men who feel that way). What then?

[BOHICA06]

36. As an employer you could set

a dress code for employees and customers, but it would have to be fair - If women were required skirt or dress, then men would have to be limited to coat & tie w/lace-up shoes. If you said no high-heels, you's probably have to set a equal standard for men - like no boots and certainly no lifts.

To have a standard for one sex without an apparent corresponding standard for the other is to quickly run afoul of discrimination law.

The question is whether your business could thrive in having such a dress code?

Now as an employee - if you were offended by women in slacks.....hmmmm then tough - doesn't pass the reasonable woman test and I aren't one!

[depakid]

38. I recall a judge not too many years back

who implemented a rule requiring that female attorneys all had to wear skirts. Now, judges are afforded a lot more latitude than most as to what constitues proper decorum- their courtrooms are little feifdoms. Even so, this created quite a controversy (for obvious reasons) and my recollection is that the judge finally backed down- but not without a lot of consternation.

The point I've been trying to make is that people- especially after 9-11, really need to focus on being reasonable. The whole zero tolerance thing that's enveloped this country is not what America should be all about. You may have read about the woman who freaked out over Syrian musicians on her plane and wrote about her "frightening" experience. Personally, I found her piece very disturbing- although not for the reasons that she laid out....

[ronabop]

51. Could the men wear kilts?

If women must wear skirts, why not men, too?

-Bop

[demgurl]

18. The article says.......

Wagner noted on American's Web site the policy clearly states that someone who is "clothed in a manner that would cause discomfort or offense to other passengers" can be removed from a flight.

So does this mean if I am wearing an anti Bush shirt and the pubes are offended by it, I will be asked to remove my shitr (BTW, I never wear a bra!) or I will be removed? lol.

All of this is said in jest but then again, this is Amerika.

[tlcandie]

21. My question, too, because I saw a woman with large breasts

on the plane the other day with a thick t-shirt type top on with her nipples showing. I'm sure that would be offensive to some, no?

I agree with going braless...many do will that now be a qualifier for getting kicked off the plane?

[JJ Hotdog]

19. ...

Airlines are private businesses. They can do whatever they want as long as it's not based on race, religion, ethnicity, sex, etc...

If he was wearing an anti-Bush shirt and was not allowed on the plane, THEN it would be discrimination.

[Lorien]

20. Watch this thread get 100+ posts

while the planet is swiftly dying: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x721702

Why? Priorities.

[tlcandie]

24. For me, I can only take so much of serious issues without needing

some relief. I can't function daily if all I do is spend my time on nothing but serious issues. I will fall over comatose from all of the depression.

:hug:

EDIT: BTW, I read that article and thread and left so saddened. I know how true it all is and I live by the ocean. The dying off of the whales and all the sea life literally breaks my heart. Many times I read threads and articles but do not post because I don't want to comment when I'm upset.

[Nashyra]

27. As a flight attendant for American Airlines

I can guarantee you that it happens very rarely and it is usually after another passenger has complained, and yes you can buy porn in the airport and no you can no just open it up and drool over it and no Sports Illustrated is not considered porn. It is the same thing as in resturants "no shirts or shoes no service". They gave him the option of changing or turning it inside out, if he wanted to be stubborn let him get a lawyer. If he had been kicked off for any of the other reasons stated then I would be 100% behind him. I had a woman one time get on board with short shorts, here shorts were so short that when she walked down the aisle her ass was about even with the passengers heads while they were sitting. We were on the runway for awhile for a delay and she would not stay seated and several passengers complained, it appeared that she had not showered that morning or for several mornings, well she thought she was God's gift to men, so she kept getting up and down from her seat, When I asked her to remain seated or change into something more appropriate, I asked her on one of her trips to the lav she turned around and in a very loud voice exclaimed that I was "jealous" of her body, believe me not an issue, I was at the time 5'6'' size 6 so I could damn well hold my own. Needless to say she was not going to cooperate and the Capt returned to the gate to have her taken off, the agent gave her the option of changing, she refused,so off she went. We returned to the aircraft to a standing ovation, so decency is appreciated in close quarters.

[tlcandie]

29. No arguments from me. Was just stating some things that bothered

me more than clothes earlier! I can understand your point about the lady, but this man's shirt somehow doesn't quite compare IMO unless he was doing the same, i.e, flaunting it or something? :shrug:

However, I didn't know that you can buy porn mags at the airport, but you can't view them on the airplane? Isn't that a bit odd? The special swimsuit edition of Sports Illustrated is soft porn like many other magazines/catalogs Abercrombie Fitch comes to mind, yet those would be okay, eh?

[Nashyra]

41. In the 27 years I have been flying only once

have I seen anyone looking at a porn magazine and they had the decency to put it inside another magazine to as not offend their seat partner. Our goal used to be getting as many people from point A to point B as safe as possible and as comfortable for as many people possible, not everyone is always happy. In such a confined area many times you error in favor of the majority as long as it has nothing to do with race, religion, sexual orientation etc. Being properly dressed is subjective and it is up to the airlines to make those decisions when questions arise. All the rules are printed on the website or on the back of a paper ticket. If they don't like it they can charter a flight or buy their own airplane, there are exceptions when the aircraft is "chartered" by a special group.

[markses]

28. Why?

Because it is an interesting question that says much about the way we choose to live our lives and organize our society. That's why. That it is manifested in what seems like a fairly trivial issue makes no difference. That only allows people to grasp the abstract concepts involved more concretely, and argue from particulars. There are huge questions involved in this thread - questions all of us have to answer in our own lives and for our children.

What constitutes decency?
Where do the rights of others begin?
What is self-expression and can it be limited?
What is appropriate for law? What is appropriate for taste? How do we adjudicate these questions?
What is the role of private industry in adjudicating questions of public concern?

Are these trivial questions? No. There's a reason some threads grow to 100+ posts, and that reason is only rarely venality or prurient interest (both of which are themselves interesting). You should probably get off the high horse and watch how people actually respond to threads that seem on the surface trivial. I find that many people are airing extremely profound political and ethical sensibilities and that smart, sharp arguments about these sensibilities occur often, even when folks are just arguing about a schmuck on a plane from Costa Rica, wearing a "titty shirt." People are rarely as stupid as those who like to feel superior make them out to be. And it is a priority that we discuss and work on these pressing questions of social and political right. It is the essence of democracy, in fact, without which the priorities of the current election would mean little.

[tlcandie]

30. Well said markses.. as always!!

:hi:

[Divernan]

40. Jen6 is right about priorities; if the planet dies, all else is moot

Man does have priorities - I recall a pyramid of priorities/needs from Introductory Psych. Was it Maslov? Whatever. First we need things like air to breathe and water to drink and shelter from the elements - much farther down the line we get to esoteric philosophical arguments such as "What is decency?" Jen6 in no way seemed to be on a high horse or as one who likes to feel superior. You, on the other hand. . .. . . .

[markses]

43. Environmental *discussions* are philosophical as well

And, talking about the environment on DU does not fulfill the so-called "basic needs" of - ahem - "Man." While I reserve my right to say that it's nicer if people get dressed when they go on a plane, I don't say they are petty or stupid if they do not. High horse. Giddyup.

[Divernan]

44. Jen6 never called anyone petty or stupid.

You however accused her of being on a high horse and liking to feel superior. Your post was otherwise interesting and well written; just skip the name-calling.

[markses]

47. Fair enough

I'll maintain that the implication is there, but you're right. I think these kinds of threads are just as important as the ones she pointed to, in any case.

[MrChupon]

59. Well..

If the article you linked didn't open with a blatantly propagandistic line like "The world's oceans are sacrificing themselves to try to stave off global warming", then I'd be more inclined to read and comment on it.

It just puts off the scientific part of my brain when I hear people treating nature like it is a sentient being that makes decisions. It cannot sacrifice itself, it just exists. And we are a part of it, not a separate entity.

It's too bad too, cause I'm sure rising levels of acidity in the worlds oceans are a problem that needs to be looked at very seriously.

[Dover]

39. They both SHOULD have taken their shirts off and gone on barebreasted

for REAL.

[Jack_DeLeon]

45. Sounds like the flight attendent...

needs to fucking grow up.

[Nashyra]

48. Sounds like the guy in the shirt

needs to fucking grow up. If he wants to prove a point let him do it in or on his own space. When you buy a ticket on an airline you buy passage, hopefully safe from point A to point B. That is what the airlines are required to give you, if they want to institute a dres code they have every right to. If you want to do things your own way you pay for it, if all you can not afford to pay for private transportation then you fortunately or unfortunately have to follow the rules whether you like it or not.

[Jack_DeLeon]

49. So explain to me...

how does his shirt prevent the airplane from travelling safely, from point A to point B.

It clearly could have done so in a timely manner and not been delayed had the flight attendent not chosen to make a big deal of this person's Shirt.

if they want to institute a dres code they have every right to.

Well if thats what they want to do, then let them do so. It certainly would prevent flight attendents from kicking people off the plane because something random offended them.

[impe]

64. Agreed

he should remove the t-shirt or sprout wings. I'm sick of crass people too and this country seems to have more than its fair share.

[Jack_DeLeon]

65. I'm sick of people who...

try to impose thier will on others, and this country seems to have more than its fair share of those.

[impe]

66. pssssss Jack

hunker up close.... it's always "e" before "i" and it should be that way when flying too. You are free to ROAM.

[Tight_rope]

46. So fucking petty...We can see nudity on TV all day long..but not on shirts

[Swamp Rat]

50. Well FUCK American Airlines! I was just about to book a flight to Brasil

with them. Now I'll spend my money elsewhere and NOT with Un-American Airlines.

As for DUers that don't like the way other people dress and think there "outta be a law," then I say DON'T COME TO NEW ORLEANS!

[Piperay]

53. My boyfriend's brother

was refused admittance to Disneyland because he was wearing a Tee shirt with a marijuana leaf on it. After he turned the shirt inside out they allowed him in, simple solution cause he wasn't getting in any other way. :shrug:

[flordehinojos]

55. We are regressing all the way back to the Victorian era

which Sigmund Freud found it was so NEUROSIS producing!
:party:

[Catfight]

61. Glad I don't fly AA, hope they go out of business soon!

[TahitiNut]

63. Coming Soon: Women will be required to wear burkhas on Saudi Airlines.

After all, if the offense taken by the crew and other passengers is wholly interpreted as offense given by the individual, the tyrrany of the narrowest of "cultural values" will reign supreme.

Isn't it fun to engage in chicken-coop pecking frenzies? :eyes:


Soon thereafter, all females will be seated separately from the males on Saudi Arabian Airlines and Israeli Airlines.

[doctorbombeigh]

69. That flight attendant ought to be fired immediately. As long as the guy

had clothes on, it's not an airline employee's business to decide whether or not they like what he's wearing.

[dolstein]

70. Sorry, but this has NOTHING to do with the First Amendment

The First Amendment only applies to government action. Any business has the right require that its customers wear suitable clothing, as long as any such requirement is applied in a nondiscriminatory fashion.

[0007]

71. I don't give a fuck what a person wears or doesn't wear on a plane

As long as the pilot fly me safely to my destination.

And if you haven't common sense to play the game society demands, so be it!