Communion Barred to Abortion Supporters

[Rose Siding]

ATLANTA -- Roman Catholic bishops in three Southeastern dioceses said Wednesday they will deny Communion to lawmakers who consistently support abortion rights unless the dissenting politicians publicly recant.

The bishops said in a statement that Catholics who violate church teaching in policy-making were "cooperating in evil in a public manner."

The banned Catholic lawmakers could resume taking the sacrament "only after reconciliation with the church has occurred, with the knowledge and consent of the local bishop, and public disavowal of former support for procured abortion," the clerics said.

"There can be no contradiction between the values bestowed by baptism and the Catholic faith and the public expression of those values," the bishops said.

The announcement by Archbishop John Donoghue of Atlanta, Bishop Robert Baker of Charleston, S.C., and Bishop Peter Jugis of Charlotte, N.C., brings to four the number of American bishops who said they would deny the sacrament outright to defiant politicians.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-bishops-politics,0,2257504.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

[Massacure]

1. Time to remove churches from tax emept status.

[Baltimoreboy]

66. For what, expecting them to obey their religious leaders?

No one is forcing anyone to be Catholic.

[Bullshot]

130. I hope they are also denying communion

to lawmakers who supported the Iraq war and capital punishment, because the Vatican condemns them, too.

I think some of these bishops are trying to be "cafeteria Catholics." Just pick and choose what you like to make your case.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

2. Two words:

Opus. Dei.

Two more words:

Tax. Status.

[James T. Kirk]

61. Two words: First Amendment

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Taxing churches is a monumentally bad idea. If members of a church who are politicians don't want to follow the church, they are free to leave.

The no-communion policy is debatable, but taxing chuches? No way!

[TeacherCreature]

78. when any church interferes in electoral politics

it loses it's right to tax-exampt status. When churhes make a public issue over who are good and bad catholics and tell people to vote accordingly they have become a political entity.
The government went afer Fallwell, why should the catholic church be exempt now they they have their own political wing?

[actappan]

107. Taxing a church doesn't infringe on it's right to exsist

and therefore isn't really against the 1st - but if an organization, be they religious or otherwise, endorses a candidate, they should lose their tax exempt status. I don't see why the rules should apply differently to religious organizations.

[mike_c]

3. time to re-examine their tax-exempt status...

...if they can't keep themselves out of politics. If they're going to try to influence public policy then they should participate fully in the responsibilities of citizenship. Fundies, too.

on edit: great minds think alike, but some type faster!

[calimary]

99. Absolutely. This is blurring the line. NO MORE TAX EXEMPT STATUS

for them! Time to phone up the diocese offices in that area, and put 'em on notice - the next call is to Congress and the IRS.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zuzu98]

6. Yeah, it's too bad

they aren't as intolerant of child molesters as they are of pro-choice legislators.

[Baltimoreboy]

68. Nice gross generalization and hate speech

[atreides1]

109. Well When You Look At The Record

It's pretty accurate, the priests who molested children for the most part were never punished by the church, that is until things came out in public.

And it does seem strange that the church hierarchy is blasting away at Catholics like John Kerry, but don't want to shine the same public light on how they assisted child molesters.

Unless you know of a Bishop or Archbishop who came out in public and announced that the church did assist in trying to cover up the crimes committed by priests. If you do please provide a link, I would like to read it.

But part of the blame has to be placed on some of the families as well, imagine little Tommy comes home from services and tells Mom and Dad, who are very devout and loyal catholics that Father Jones touched him.

Do Mom and Dad immediately call the police, do they call the diocese,
no they tell Tommy he shouldn't lie about things like that, and why do Mom and Dad tell Tommy that, because they are more loyal to the church then to their own child.

So I don't think it's that much of a generalization, it's not okay to support a womans ability to choose, but it's alright to help a child molester cover up the molesting. As for me I'll take the politician who supports a womans right to choose over people in positions of authority who assisted child molesters.

And just for a little added information, the church didn't come out against abortion until 1869, up until that time an abortion before the 16th or 17th week was acceptable. So the church's holy stand against abortion is only 135 years old, and it was instituted by a Pope who was trying to keep Papal control over the governments of Europe. In other words he wanted back the good old days when the Catholic church could tell Kings what to do, and they would do them out of fear. Guess what it didn't work.

If the church wishes to become involved in politics then they pay just like everyone else who plays the game. Personally I think that all of the priests, bishops, archbishops, and anyone else in the church who helped or aided the molesters, or were molesters themselves, should be immediately excommunicated from the church, they should be denied burial in holy ground, and their names stricken from any and all church documents.

By the way I'm a former Catholic.

[asjr]

5. This is how Shrub can win. He is going to try

every evil thing in the book. Yes, take away their tax status. Make them pay if they are going to be political.

[democrat in Tallahassee]

7. and warmongers and those who support capital punishment are ok

I suppose? I mean where does this stop? How about killing innocent people in Iraq?

[DemBones DemBones]

17. Yes, because war and capital punishment aren't forbidden by,

the Roman Catholic Church, though they are opposed by many Catholics, with the pope speaking out against both.

Abortion IS forbidden by the Catholic Church so the bishops are within their rights to tell Catholic politicians in their dioceses that they will be denied Communion.

I don't think it is a reason to remove tax exempt status from the Church because churches and other religious groups have a right to oppose actions that they believe are sinful, whether or not those acts are legal.

Many years ago, about 1973, a Catholic bishop in Texas told his people it was immoral to work in the defense industry producing bombs for use in Viet Nam. A lot of people quit their jobs as a result but if there were calls to end the church's tax exemption then, they certainly weren't successful.

[yardwork]

26. Isn't contraception forbidden by the Catholic Church?

Does this mean that Catholic Dioceses will deny Communion to lawmakers who don't immediately repeal state legislation making contraception legal?

Where does it end?

Isn't the Catholic Church worried about declining numbers in its membership?

It seems to me that the Church should be more worried about its own House and not create hateful policies that will only serve to drive more Catholics from the fold. Just my opinion.

[DemBones DemBones]

36. Yes, it is. And, yes, they could.

I agree that this will be unpopular. Perhaps they have decided they only want Catholics who believe what the Church teaches and not worry about whether the cafeteria Catholics leave the Church.

Many times and in many ways, Jesus said it was difficult to get into Heaven. That's something that I'm sure is always in the minds of religious leaders when they decide to get tough about a rule, like the Southern Baptists saying back in the early 90s that women were no longer to be allowed to preach in Southern Baptist churches.

[yardwork]

108. Jesus never said anything about abortion or preventing women from preachin

These are rules made up by other people. When slavery was legal Christians found justification for it in the Bible. Any kind of bad behavior can be justified in the Bible if you look hard enough, especially when you're looking at an English translation of something that was translated numerous times since the original.

[DemBones DemBones]

122. True, but Jesus didn't choose any women as apostles, either.

That's a major rationale for the all-male Catholic priesthood and may be the Baptists' reasoning for their ban on women preachers, too.

Now, we all know that if Jesus had chosen any women as disciples, He'd have been even less popular with the Pharisees et al.

So it's kind of like arguing that Jews and Muslims wouldn't have proscriptions against pork if they'd understood trichinosis back then -- true, but hundreds of years of tradition is hard to fight.

As for abortion, some argue that abortion was so unsafe that Jesus didn't have to preach against it. But He did prohibit killing, as did the Ten Commandments given to Moses.

[Catt03]

133. Many think, as do I, that Mary Magdalen was an apostle

I also think the Church removed her name and writings to keep the power patriarch.


In addition the Pope issues a paper on feminism the same week the bishops declare abortion supporters will not receive communion.

It is all about power and control, not about God or Jesus.

And...I am a Catholic.

[JerseygirlCT]

138. What we know is what we've been allowed to read all these years

what we call the new testament was compiled by -- yes! -- men. Any involvement of women with Jesus as apostles was most likely pushed aside as irrelevant.

[Barkley]

152. Here's my case for women priests

Mary Magadaline and the other Mary were the first to be instructed by an angel of GOD to preach the "Good News" that Jesus Christ had risen.



Matt 28:1-10
28:1 After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 28:2 And suddenly there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord, descending from heaven, came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. 28:3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. 28:4 For fear of him the guards shook and became like dead men. 28:5 But the angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid; I know that you are looking for Jesus who was crucified. 28:6 He is not here; for he has been raised, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay. 28:7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples, 'He has been raised from the dead, and indeed he is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see him.' This is my message for you." 28:8 So they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples.

[GainesT1958]

53. They're not going to win many new converts..

With a shameful interventionist policy like that!:mad:

I'm really too diplomatic--and too respectful of my fellow DUers who are Catholic--to say what I think of the Church of Rome at this moment...

Let my just put it this way: I hope the late Cardinal O'Connor is rotting in HELL right now!:grr:

Yeah, right...I can see the local parrish priests not allowing John Breaux or Mary Landrieu to take Communion...:eyes:

Henry VIII made have been a sadistic maniac, but he did one thing right--he split with the Vatican (and formed MY church!).:D

B-)

[DemBones DemBones]

67. The Atlanta archdiocese has 700 - 1000 adult converts per year.

We'll see if that changes. I'm guessing it won't. We lose some to the Episcopal Church because we're "too strict" but we also gain Episcopalians who feel your church doesn't stand for much anymore. (That's what THEY say, so don't flame me!)

[coda]

73. As well as laws surrounding divorce.

No doubt the list could be long.

[TeacherCreature]

31. Big difference Dembones

The priest was saying it is wrong to work making bombs and other munitions. However they were not campaigning against certain politicians.

[DemBones DemBones]

40. They're not campaigning against certain politicians.

They're saying that if you're a Catholic and a politician, you can't receive Communion and vote to promote legalized abortion in any way.

They're saying that Catholic politicians in their dioceses have to make a choice. One choice, I believe, would be to abstain from voting on abortion-related legislation.

[TeacherCreature]

44. they are campaigning against certain politicians

and they are trying to blackmail them on the way they vote on legislation. I'll bet they hand out voter guides right before election day.

[DemBones DemBones]

47. Prove it. eom

[TeacherCreature]

49. prove what?

LOL, I said several different things in my post. What would you like me to prove?

[DemBones DemBones]

54. Quit laughing and prove they are campaigning against certain

politicians, as you alleged in your last post.

[GainesT1958]

58. Name the number of elected officials in those Diocses...

Who are practicing Catholics. Control for the ones who are Democrats. Review each Catholic Democratic official's position on choice. Take the total number of Democratic practicing Catholic elected officials professing to be pro-choice in those Diocses.

I think THAT number will answer the question about just who those archbishops are singling out to deny Communion, DEMBONES!

B-)

[TeacherCreature]

62. What a request

The fact that they are denying communion to certain politicians, making the issue public and spamming your car with voter guides as you leave mass makes my point clear.

[DemBones DemBones]

77. They are denying Communion to certain PARISHIONERS who

happen to hold office and vote on abortion-related legislation. If they didn't make it public, you'd be complaining that they did it secretly!

:shrug:

And the only time my car was ever spammed during Mass was when some yo-yo stuck a Jack Chick anti-Catholic tract on it.


But how about NAMING the politicians they're discriminating against? You claim they're leaving pro-choice Repubs alone -- give us details. I'll write a letter of complaint to any bishop who does that, but I won't do it until you give me evidence.

[TeacherCreature]

105. nonsense

I wouldn't care if they spoke to these politicians in private. That is what they should be doing.
Around here voter guides are put on the cars during mass. don't worry the practice will be coming your way soon. The dominionists are polticizing the catholic church bit by bit. They just haven't go to you yet.


PS.... I have not intention of providing you with any evidence you are perfectly capable of getting on Google.com.

[DemBones DemBones]

106. Why should I Google to make your case? If you want to make your case,

do it and I'll look at what you have to say. Otherwise, stop saying the same thing over and over with NO PROOF!

+++

Voter guides aren't illegal or unfair so long as they simply show each candidate's position on different issues.

+++

In 2000, Catholic priests in some parishes reminded their parishioners that abortion should NOT be the only concern of Catholic voters. I guess that was unfair, huh?

[TeacherCreature]

114. I couldn't care less about you making my case

We both know that I am right. If you want names so you can write letters, look it up yourself.

[DemBones DemBones]

119. Ha ha! eom

[scottxyz]

125. They haven't gone after Pataki and Giuliani

Republicans who supported abortion.

It's only a sin if you're a Democrat.

[trogdor]

136. Pataki and Giuliani don't live in Carolina.

The bishops in New York have yet to chime in on this issue, and there are a LOT of Catholics here, unlike Dixie. I would be surprised if there were ANY Catholic politicians in the Carolinas at all. They're just blowing smoke.

[Catt03]

134. Look on the list

means that you would not vote for a Democrat as they support the Right of Choice but you would vote for a Republican as they are against choice.

Pretty simple.

[coda]

71. I think that happened with the Pantex plan in Amarillo a decade ago, also.

[coda]

76. Ooops. Pantex PLANT.

[sally343434]

8. I'm waiting

I'm waiting for communion to be denied to those politicians who still support the death penalty, which is also contrary to catholic dogma.

Oh, wait. I see. Communion (used in this sense merely as an imprimatur) is reserved for hypocritical republicans (is there any other kind?) who profess being against abortion, while paying for their teen-aged girlfriends to get one.

[James T. Kirk]

45. Death penalty MIGHT be OK, in rare cases.

Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity with the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm – without definitively taking away the possibility of redeeming himself – the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”

- Cathechism of the Catholic Church, section 2267

[Joanne98]

9. They can go Cheney themselves

Who in the Hell do these people think they are? Why don't they pay the victims of their child molesting brothers? And while we're at it they can pay the Africans restitution for deliberately spending the aids virus by telling the Africans not to wear condoms.
Child molesters and mass murderers shouldn't throw stones. These people and their evangelical comrades are getting real close to getting their tax exempt status jerked.

[BayCityProgressive]

10. fuck the catholic church

they have been behind almost every form of human evil in the last 2000 years...they can keep their fucking potato chip and cheap wine...I dont care much for child molesters anyhow.

[MasonJar]

11. What about giving to the poor, not killing and bearing false

witness?

[cal04]

12. Take care of your own house first, good for Rep Stephens

Georgia state Rep. Mickey Stephens, a Democrat who supports abortion rights, denounced the bishops' stance.

``I don't think they banned any of those priests who committed those horrible crimes against little boys. I don't know why they're singling out politicians,'' said Stephens, who worships in the Savannah Diocese and will not be affected by the Communion ban.

``I'm against abortion, but I don't think the government has the right to tell a woman what to do,'' Stephens said. ``I also don't think the Catholic Church should be getting into politics.''

Donoghue's spokeswoman said the archbishop was not available for comment.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Bishops-Politics.html

[Khephra]

13. The Pope has issued a statement that people can vote

for Catholics politicians who don't support an abortion ban and that said politicans shouldn't be refused Communion.

WHERE IN THE FUCK IS THE WORD GOING OUT THAT THESE CATHOLICHE (Mis-spelled on purpose) Bishopes are going against the Pope's wishes?

[Khephra]

14. Denying Communion on abortion is last resort, Bishop Gregory says

Denying Communion on abortion is last resort, Bishop Gregory says

Published: 2004-04-26

ROME (CNS) -- Denying Communion to a politician such as Sen. John F. Kerry, who supports legalized abortion, must be the last resort in a process to convince the politician to uphold moral truths when voting, said the president of the U.S. bishops' conference. "In the nature of the church, the imposition of sanctions is always the final response, not the first response, nor the second nor maybe even the 10th," the conference president, Bishop Wilton D. Gregory of Belleville, Ill., told Catholic News Service in Rome April 23.

http://www.georgiabulletin.org/world/2004/04/26/WORLD-2/

[Khephra]

15. snip........

Even so, the pope appears to consider Communion a private question between a believer and God. The pope himself has given Communion to pro-choice Italian politicians. And U.S. bishops returning from routine meetings in Rome this spring say there's no Vatican support for denying Communion in order to publicly sanction policymakers.

Archbishop Theodore McCarrick of Washington, D.C., chairman of the bishops' Task Force on Relations with Catholic Politicians, has written, "I do not favor a confrontation at the altar rail with the Sacred Body of the Lord Jesus in my hand. There are apparently those who would welcome such a conflict, for good reasons I am sure, or for political ones, but I would not."

His task force will make a progress report at this semiannual retreat and meeting of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. The final report, expected in November, will address ways to implement the pope's 2003 teaching on "faithful citizens" in the face of contentious issues such as abortion, social justice, foreign policy and economics.

The bishops have said they will be unavailable for press comment during their retreat, which concludes Saturday.

Others, however, are jumping to the microphones.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2004-06-14-bishops-meet_x.htm

[DemBones DemBones]

25. Yes, he may indeed think that, but the pope does not control the bishops

the way most non-Catholics seem to think. Bishops have a lot of power. The pope could issue an official Church policy to stop the bishops from denying Communion to "pro-choice" politicians but he probably won't, in my view. He (and Catholics in other countries) expected American bishops to straighten out the problems in their dioceses related to priests abusing boys, rather than wait for him to take action. It's also because of the power of bishops that John Paul II put Cardinal Law in a ceremonial position in a church in Rome. He couldn't send Law (a bishop) to live in another bishop's diocese so he brought him into his own turf.

Pope John Paul II is the head of the Church but he doesn't want to micromanage the bishops, who are heads of dioceses. That's not how a pope is supposed to govern.

[Khephra]

33. I thought the Pope was supposed to be god's representative on Earth?

That Bishopes wouldn't follow him surprises me.

[DemBones DemBones]

42. That doesn't mean he bosses the bishops around.

When the pope speaks ex cathedra (literally "from the chair," meaning the chair of the bishop of Rome, or as the head of the Catholic Church, he is infallible in what he says -- meaning he won't say anything against revealed truth.)

But a pope rarely speaks ex cathedra. For good reason.

[TahitiNut]

110. Only on "matters of faith and morals" ... not politics.

:shrug:

[GainesT1958]

65. Well, if this Pope believes in NOT withholding Communion...

To those Catholics who profess to be pro-choice--despite his fervent opposition to abortion--then those Archbishops who don't are going against the Holy Father's word--and deed--are they not?

And the last time I looked, THAT action is supposed to be a "Cardinal sin", right?

Looks like to me it's time to remove some Archbishops around these parts!:eyes:

Of course, Dub disgusted Pope John Paul II by invading Iraq, after the Pope had pleaded with him not to...THAT ought to have at least SOME bearing in the minds of Catholics, I'd think!:D

B-)

[DemBones DemBones]

81. NO. Bishops have a lot of freedom in managing their dioceses.

The pope would have to make it an official teaching that Catholic politicians who vote against Church teaching can still receive Communion and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him to do that.

[Barkley]

151. Even worse- the sacrament of communion is nolonger catholic

If every bishop has the power to determine the criteria for communion what keeps them from doing the same for all the other sacraments?

What's 'universal' about this?

[RetroLounge]

16. Tax. Status.

nuff said.

RL

[DemBones DemBones]

18. If churches can speak out against war and not lose

their tax exempt status, then they can speak out against abortion and keep their tax exempt status.

[Khephra]

23. BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ....sorry...these people are speaking out

for or against candidates. It's always been allowed for churches to speak on ISSUES. None of these anti-abortion people are speaking out against republicans or anti-death penalty, like the Quakers. There's a clear sign of bias.

[DemBones DemBones]

27. What are you talking about? There ARE Catholics who

speak out against abortion and against the death penalty and against war.

I should know, since I AM one!!!

And Quakers do speak out against anti-war politicians without losing their tax-exempt status.

[Khephra]

35. I thought you were saying that speaking out against an issue

was the same as supporting or not supporting a candidate. My apologies if I mis-understood you.

[TeacherCreature]

38. Again big difference

They are not speaking out against or denying communion to those catholics who voted for war. In fact here in Pa they are only speaking out against Democrats who support choice. They aren't targeting Pro-choice Republicans. At least if they are then you do not hear about it in the Press.

Tax status should be reconsidered.

[DemBones DemBones]

104. 1) War is not forbidden by the Catholic Church (though it's not

considered good, either, particularly in modern times.

2) Abortion IS completely forbidden by the Catholic Church.

3) Four Catholic bishops have said they will deny Communion to Catholic politicians who vote in support of legalized abortion. This affects the dioceses of Atlanta, Charleston, Charlotte, and one in New Mexico.

4) Whatever talk is going on in PA, apparently no PA bishop has taken any action on this.

5) You keep saying "they" are targeting pro-choice Dems and not pro-choice Repubs in PA but giving no evidence. Perhaps it's Republicans who are Catholic laity or not even Catholic who are doing this? I can't say without some evidence to look at.

6) So far, I see no evidence that tax status should be reconsidered. Churches have a right to tell their members what to believe. It's a tough choice for Catholic politicians, but no one ever said being Catholic or any sort of Christian was easy. Jesus made it pretty clear that following Him was supposed to be difficult.

[TeacherCreature]

116. Now if Catholics would simply follow Jesus

You don't have to be catholic to follow Jesus. He is not the one who made up the exlusionary rules you all love so much.

PS... Jesus through the money changers out of the temple. It is immoral to sell divorce to those who can afford it and use that as a basis for discrimination and withholding God's grace. If only more catholic people understood they don't need the permision of old white men to be worthy of Gods grace.

[DemBones DemBones]

121. I hope you don't teach English. Jesus THREW the moneychangers out of the

Temple, NOT "Jesus through the moneychangers."

:eyes:

[Rose Siding]

19. Who would enforce it?

The govt is republican! The laws have become meaningless.

[TaleWgnDg]

56. who would "enforce it?" . . .

any "enforcement" would be w/i the Roman Catholic Church, itself.

By that is meant that if a politician disobeyed the Pope's edict, then that individual is at the "mercy," if you will, of the Pope, or Bishop who has enunciated the Pope's directive.

Typically and historically, the individual is "denied" the "sacraments" of the Church (which may be necessary for eternal salvation, btw), or an individual may be "excommunicated" from the Church (tossed out). I am not saying that this would happen, but am merely saying what has happened to persons who have disobeyed the Church's tenets (here, the Pope).

Already, some bishops, archbishops have announced their intentions of "what happens" next . . . a denial, if you will, of the "blessed sacrament of communion" to those politicians who disobey the "teachings/tenets of the Church."

http://www.archatl.com/archbishops/donoghue/20040804.html

This is heavy stuff b/c Roman Catholics . . . to deny a Roman Catholic the "sacred sacraments" may mean an eternal damnation. Please note that I stated "may mean."

All that said, John Kerry stands steadfast for separating his religion from his politician life. Here Kerry states his position:

"As a Catholic, I have enormous respect for
the words and teachings of the Vatican, but
as a public servant I've never forgotten the
lasting legacy of President Kennedy, who
made clear that in accordance with the
separation of church and state no elected
official should be 'limited or conditioned
by any religious oath, ritual, or obligation.'
I represent all the people of Massachusetts,
and they expect me to speak with respect
for all of their views and values.''
-- Senator John F. Kerry (2003)
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_poli.htm

[TaleWgnDg]

20. well, there ya go . . .

I recall well what John F. Kennedy said when he was campaigning for the presidency back in 1960. He gave a speech before the Southern Baptist Convention to convince them that he would not intermingle his faith and his duties as president. He also stated that he would not take directives from Rome (the Vatican, the Pope).

Here's the quote: "I believe in an America ... where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the pope, the National Council of Churches, or any other ecclesiastical source." -- Senator John F. Kennedy on the presidential campaign trail, 1960.

An additional quote: "I want a chief executive whose public acts are responsible to all and obligated to none -- who can attend any ceremony, service or dinner his office may appropriately require him to fulfill -- and whose fulfillment of his Presidential office is not limited or conditioned by any religious oath, ritual or obligation." -- Senator John F. Kennedy in his address to SOUTHERN BAPTIST LEADERS, while campaigning for the presidency, September 1960. Source: NYTimes, September 13, 1960
http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/facts/democrac/66.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_poli.htm

John Kerry has stated just about the very same stance. Kerry believes in Separation of Church and State as Thomas Jefferson so wisely articulated many years ago. No involvement of religion IN government, and no involvement of government IN religion.

Now, where does that place our present-day politicians? Are we to now vote for or against them according to their religion? Vote against Catholics? This is NOT a wise move on the part of the Roman Catholic Church and its directives from the Papal See (the Vatican, the Pope)!!! It's truly stupid, naive, and dumb as hell.

[TaleWgnDg]

21. btw . . . just for the record . . .

here's Kerry's quote on this subject as my Senator (this was b4 running for president, I believe):

"As a Catholic, I have enormous respect for the words and teachings of the Vatican, but as a public servant I've never forgotten the
lasting legacy of President Kennedy, who made clear that in accordance with the separation of church and state no elected
official should be 'limited or conditioned by any religious oath, ritual, or obligation.' I represent all the people of Massachusetts,
and they expect me to speak with respect for all of their views and values."
-- Senator John F. Kerry (2003)
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_poli.htm

Give em hell, John!! :kick:

[TeacherCreature]

43. I don't know why these politicians don't just leave the Catholic Church

Communion is just as meaningful in a protestant church and the protestant churches have open communion, meaning that everyone is welcome to partake.

[DemBones DemBones]

46. You have NO understanding of what Communion means to a Catholic.

I was a Protestant and I know the difference, which is HUGE.


There are Protestant churches with closed Communion as well.

[TeacherCreature]

59. tell me which protestant churches have closed communion

I know lots of former catholics who are perfectly happy taking communion in their protestant church. Communion is communion regardless of how you have been taught to think otherwise.

There is a woman I heard of (a friend of my Pastor) who can't ever take communion again in her church because she couldn't afford to PAY for an annulment and is now remarried. Her new husband takes communion because he PAID for his annulment. How exactly is that serving the needs of the flock? Where is the love and grace of God in that cynical money driven rule?

I hope they find another church, maybe mine, where they are both loved and accepted as children of God equal in their worthiness to receive communion.

[James T. Kirk]

70. closed communion in Protestant churches

Take a look at this for a list of the other closed communion churches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_communion

And not all communions are the same. Catholics believe in the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist ("This is my body...").

[TeacherCreature]

75. and all the rest have open communion

including many baptist churches. You have proven my point that communion is more often than not, open in mainstream protestant churches.

[James T. Kirk]

129. Not all communions are the same!

Not all Christian churches believe in the divinity of Christ as a member of the trinity. Not all churches believe that communion is bead and wine changed in substance to the body and blood of Christ.

If I went to a different church, I might have a pleasant time hanging out with nice folks and eating bread, but I go to the Catholic Church to be with Jesus and all the nice folks there.

[DemBones DemBones]

97. All you are telling me is that you have NO understanding of what

Communion means to most Catholics. Those who have left the church are exceptions, obviously, and I don't deny that they can be happy elsewhere. Good for them, but don't tell us what to believe, please. Communion means less in Protestant churches and is not the focus of all worship as it is for us, thus most of us would not leave. Again, I used to be Protestant, so I know this issue from both sides.

Our Communion is closed because taking Communion in a Catholic church means that you are saying to God that you accept all the teachings of the Catholic faith. If we had open Communion, we'd effectively be encouraging non-Catholics to lie to God.

There are churches besides the Baptists who have closed Communion on a local basis. Specifically, I know of closed Communion Episcopal and Presbyterian churches.

+++

Are you surprised that people have to pay for the services of canon lawyers in getting annulments? Are you equally surprised that people have to pay for the services of civil lawyers in getting civil divorces?

In the story you tell, if the facts you gave are correct (I know you got them second or third-hand), the husband should not be receiving Communion in a Catholic church since he is now married to a woman who is still married to her first husband in the eyes of the Catholic Church.

If you remember, Jesus said something to the effect of Moses having only allowed divorce "because your hearts were so hard" so I don't think the Catholic Church needs to apologize for not making serial marriage easy.

[TeacherCreature]

102. Sorry dembones but you are wrong on many many counts

First of all I have been both Episcopalian and Presbyterian and neither have closed communion.
Next, I understand that catholics have been brainwashed to think they must agree to all the hoops they are made to jump through to receive the body and blood of Christ. However, Jesus didn't make up all these rules, power hungry men did. When someone finally leaves the Catholic church and attends a protestant church they are relieved to find that communion in a protestant church is just as meaniningful.

[DemBones DemBones]

112. I was Presbyterian and I'm telling you there are Presbyterian churches

that have closed Communion, on a local basis. No, it's not official Presbyterian policy but it exists. I've seen it.

Here's a truly weird story: When I was a teenager and my family moved to another state, the local Presbyterian church would not accept our membership letters unless we took the class that people seeking to join the church would take. I told my mother I wouldn't do that. She insisted it wasn't a bad idea, we could learn more, etc. I said, "Bullshit, we were both born into this church and they can't demand that we do this. And they're demanding it, not just suggesting it." After a couple of weeks, my father, who was an elder (and you know you're an elder for life in the Presbyterian church, even when not actively serving) said, "You know, this is really bullshit" and they started going to a Congregational church while I went to an Episcopal church.

I have also attended Episcopal churches in several states and sometimes there were hints that communion was closed. My Methodist mother-in-law was told outright that she could not take Communion in a particular Episcopal church, aftee years of being able to take Communion in another Episcopal church when visiting family. It may not be official policy for the denomination, but it exists, and in more than one local church.

Lutherans, Baptists, and all the Orthodox churches also have closed Communion, plus Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.

[TeacherCreature]

113. oh please............stop

It is official policy in the Catholic churches serve closed communion. It is official policy that Presbyterians do the opposite.

[DemBones DemBones]

120. So? There are individual Presbyterian churches that are closed-communion.

as I've just told you. Lutherans, Baptists, Mennonites, Orthodox -- all closed-communion, officially.

I've also explained why Catholics have closed Communion.

You are evidently one of those teachers who thinks she knows everything but unfortunately your info about Catholicism comes from a husband who you've said left the Catholic Church and won't go near any church now. Too bad.

[JerseygirlCT]

139. That's most definitely not official policy for the Episcopalian church!

Communion is open to all baptised Christians.

In fact, there's a movement afoot to not even limit it to that -- saying communion should be open to all who seek it. Period.

[Danmack]

140. I say BUNK>>>>

"Communion means less in Protestant churches and is not the focus of all worship as it is for us, thus most of us would not leave. Again, I used to be Protestant, so I know this issue from both sides."

I believe the above statement is full of arrogance.

By saying that you believe that communion means more to a catholic than to anyone else is pure bullshit. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I agree that churches can govern themselves anyway they want to and if a person doesn't agree with it they are free to move on to another.

But you sir are a little out of line on this. Your attempt to defend your church is admirable, but you need to think about your position some.

Some here have pointed out that it appears that only pro choice Dems (not PC Repubs)are being singled out and all you say is prove it. Some have pointed out other less controversial stands of your church like the death penalty and such and all you say is that its not the same.

You have not addressed those concerns faithfully....

You might want to take a deep look at your motives concerning this and reevaluate some of your comments.

Remember most here believe that the government should stay the hell out the bedroom and issues surrounding it. The same belief is felt that churches should do the same.

Also any appearance that politics is in play by these Bishops is not going ti sit well here.

Question: Why, with probably the most important presidential election of our life, are these bishops coming out now with these decree's? Its not like these prochoice politicians weren't prochoice 3,4, 5 or 10 years ago.

WHY NOW??????????

If it walks like a duck, it ......

[Matilda]

132. That doesn't sound right to me.

An annulment is an annulment - if the marriage has been officially
declared void, it's void for both parties, no matter who instigated
it.

[James T. Kirk]

55. Communion

Communion as defined by the Catholic Church is not the same as it is in all the other churches. Leaving the Catholic Church would be a serious problem for a devout Catholic.

[TeacherCreature]

69. yes I know very well that catholics are brain washed to think their

communion is more "special" than any other. But that is not true as many many happy new recovering catholics have found on the fourth sunday of every month... and it's amazing how easily they adapt to making their confessions to God directly.

[James T. Kirk]

79. "brain washed"

I'm glad we could all discuss this in a respectful way.:eyes:

I you don't want to believe in Catholic teaching, that's fine. But you must also understand that others do believe it and take it seriously.

I'm going to bed now. Have a good night anf God bless you!

[TeacherCreature]

92. My husband is an ex catholic and that is the word he uses

Unfortunately he was so disgusted by what he saw as brainwashing and manipulation that he wont go to church at all anymore.

[DemBones DemBones]

118. Interesting. . . eom

[NewYorkerfromMass]

22. This is so unCatholic, unChristian, and so disgusting.

This is contrary to everything I learned, was inculcated with, and had ingrained into my soul in my years as a devout Catholic.
Jesus taught us to forgive and to turn the other cheek.
To my mind it's all about compassion and nurturing and fostering love and understanding.
This is utter and complete BS.
I wonder if the Bush campaign is funneling money to certain churches?
Cardinal Richelieu would be proud of these scum.

[TaleWgnDg]

24. no, it's an edict from the Papal See . . .

the Papal url hyperlink is w/i this url:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rcc_poli.htm

[DemBones DemBones]

28. No, it's not. Read the rest of the thread. eom

[TaleWgnDg]

see my post #24, please . . .

follow the hyperlink to the Papal See url and read it for yourself.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

29. No it isn't. See post 13. eom

[TaleWgnDg]

34. I disagree, please see

my post #24, follow the url, and w/i that url is a hyperlink to the Papal See url . . . read the entire document.

[yardwork]

30. The * administration has poured millions of dollars in grants

into faith-based initiatives, for such programs as abstinence-only education, creationism, etc. This money has been diverted from the usual grants for health care to the uninsured and other at-risk populations.

Take a look at the Health and Human Services website on the internet, and follow the links to read about grants provided to faith-based initiatives. This is just what has been publicized. I believe that a great deal more money has gone "under the table" to private contractors and to special programs supporting churches of many different denominations.

Yes, I think this is payback by the churches. * filled their coffers with tax-payer money, and now they are being asked to reciprocate by helping the Republicans get reelected.

It is absolutely a reason to remove tax-exempt status from churches. And the government never should have gotten into making grants to faith-based programs. That's been the disaster that many predicted it would be when * first announced it.

This is a movement to create a theocracy in this country, and it looks like it might succeed.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

37. I'd say the quid pro quo here will be easy to show

there can be no other reason for this abominable behavior.

[kskiska]

32. Oh, I feel so badly for Rudy Giuliani, Arnold Schwarzenegger,

and George Pataki. I hope they won't dare to attend mass in Atlanta.

[TeacherCreature]

39. These churches are interfering in politics.

Their tax-exempt status should be yanked.

[TaleWgnDg]

41. one last statement on this issue . . .

here's the Papal See url . . . as it were, straight from the Pope's mouth . . . you cannot get much higher in the Roman Catholic Church about Catholic doctrine than "The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" . . .

. . . further, one must be knowledgeable about the wording of Rome's edicts . . . its use of words and their meanings to "the faithful" and the Canon lawyers . . . this is about as "heavy" as you get w/i the "teachings of the Roman Catholic Church" . . .


http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

[NewYorkerfromMass]

48. That's NOT from the Pope! It's the asshole who started this RATZINGER

My advice here is the same as Teresa Heinz Kerry's...

Meanwhile, this is the most recent position by the Bishops Conference:

"...The question has been raised as to whether the denial of Holy Communion to some Catholics in political life is necessary because of their public support for abortion on demand. Given the wide range of circumstances involved in arriving at a prudential judgment on a matter of this seriousness, we recognize that such decisions rest with the individual bishop in accord with the established canonical and pastoral principles. Bishops can legitimately make different judgments on the most prudent course of pastoral action. Nevertheless, we all share an unequivocal commitment to protect human life and dignity and to preach the Gospel in difficult times.

The polarizing tendencies of election-year politics can lead to circumstances in which Catholic teaching and sacramental practice can be misused for political ends. Respect for the Holy Eucharist, in particular, demands that it be received worthily and that it be seen as the source for our common mission in the world."

http://www.usccb.org/bishops/catholicsinpoliticallife.htm

I can assure you that these crusading Bishops will be in the MINORITY of true Catholics.

[DemBones DemBones]

50. Bishops can and do disagree with the pope on matters

not clearly defined by the Church.

There's no Church policy that says bishops cannot deny Communion to politiicans who support legalized abortion in any manner.

[TeacherCreature]

51. Yes, but there is a rule in our constitution that says they can't

mess around in electoral politics.

TAX STATUS.

[DemBones DemBones]

63. Again, they are telling Catholics what they have to do to receive

Communion in Catholic churches within their dioceses. Catholic politicians will have to use their consciences to make decisions about what they will do.

Lobbyists try to influence votes all the time. Usually they offer money. The bishops are in effect lobbying against abortion and threatening to withhold Communion (OR, viewing it another way, they're trying to get their flock to get on board with Church teaching.)

People who are concerned that their Catholic representative (in the four dioceses affected) might vote against legalized abortion to save his or her soul are free to vote for someone else to represent them.

[TeacherCreature]

103. bullshit

They are advertising who people should vote for by making a public declaration about who people should vote for.

[The_Casual_Observer]

52. I would gag on a communion wafer with those strings attached

this shit betrays the hand of the squatter. They can take their God damned wafers and stick them up their asses. I wouldn't feed them to a pig.

[DemBones DemBones]

57. Ah, sweet tolerance! eom

[TeacherCreature]

60. Where is the tolerance in the Catholic church?

They are turning people away based on their politics. They are advertising in voter guides who you should and shouldn't vote for on election day.

[Baltimoreboy]

74. Tolerance? They consider abortion to be murder

How tolerant of that should they be?

[TeacherCreature]

80. no matter how you try and twist the issue

The catholic church is influencing electoral politics.
Tolerance is not about forcing everyone to agree with you. It is about accepting that others think differently.

[Baltimoreboy]

85. Not hardly, they are influencing their members on

Matters of absolute church doctrine.

The church has no obligation to accept that others think differently. That's why it's a religion.

[TeacherCreature]

91. twist away

this topic is about advertising who is and is not a good cathlolic and trying to blackmail politicians to vote the way the church wants them too.
They are doing the same around here. Oddly they are not going after the pro-choice republicans.

[coda]

95. They're being selective about "Matters of absolute church doctrine.".

Isn't there a long list of "absolute church doctrine" that could apply?

For instance, shouldn't those who support the public's access to birth control be added to the list?

Or is there something very selective (i.e. political) in this?

[Baltimoreboy]

100. It is up to the church to define what they consider most important

Since abortion is considered to be murder by the church, that seems to be a good choice.

[coda]

111. To consider which is important, politically.

Hence:


So far sanctions have been applied in a decidedly partisan manner. While Catholic Democratic Governor McGreevey was sanctioned, in part for his support for abortions, Catholic Republican Governor Pataki of New York, who holds similar views on abortion, was not. Sacramento Bishop Wiegand chastised Catholic Democratic Governor Gray Davis for supporting abortion rights and recommended that he refrain from taking Communion. But he has issued no warning to Catholic Republican Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, who also supports abortion rights.

http://www.alternet.org/stories/19101

Has the quality of being doctrinaire when applied to Democrats, does it not?

Does the word "absolute" in regards to church doctrine even have meaning?

[Baltimoreboy]

126. Bishop interpret what they consider important or at least

how to enforce it.

[The_Casual_Observer]

82. Show me the tolerance in this enlightened postion

The only tolerance the church has shown is to-wards a bunch of perverted child molesting "Priests" over the last 40 or so years. Those cranks in the funny hats from the KofC at the bush rally yesterday indicate the enlightened state of today's catholic church.

[TeacherCreature]

88. Unfortunately the Catholic church is growing it's own Fundy wing

and the K of C has a lot to do with it. I don't believe abortion is the issue as much as control of women. When women get laid they had better stay laid.
The pope now says that equal rights for women are responsible for the break down of the American family. Women are supposed to go back to vassal status.

[The_Casual_Observer]

94. Used to be the KofC was for old men who knew they

would need 6 pall bearers and only knew 2. Otherwise they sponsored the Scouts, fish frys and St Patrick's day dances. All of a sudden they have been mislead into this horrible rw fundie go against your best interest nonsense. Squatter's minions have been working overtime on these lambs.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

64. Cardboard tastes better. As for the tolerance, yes it's a virtue

which most Catholics learn.

[impe]

137. Tell that

to the millions that died during the inquisition.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

148. I'm talking about the 20th century I grew up in

not the witch hunts of several hundred years ago.

[James T. Kirk]

150. The Spanish Inquisition did not kill millions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_inquisition

Any execution related to the Inquisition was bad thing, but thousands died, not millions. Whether you know it or not, you're repeating a fundamentalist talking point.

[kodi]

72. the Blessed Sacraments are supposed to be God's gift, not the Church's

but remember, this is the organization that protected child molesters and unleashed them on unsuspecting parishes.

[TeacherCreature]

83. And now they are closing Parsish schools and selling them

to pay for the law suites.

[TaleWgnDg]

90. indeed . . . and hide it away as w/ the vestments in old closets . . .

so much for pedophile priests and those above them who hid it away and shuffled the deck and re-distributed the pedophiles like some dirty old deck of cards, all at the great and systemic damage of children who were denied their innocence by these horrids.

With all that has been revealed by the few hard working lawyers who, through court discovery procedures, were able to find documentation implicating the dirty laundry of the many throughout the Church and for the length of time that documentation whould reach . . . its my firm belief that it goes all the way to Rome and its culture of "don't question authority" and "keep clean the reputation of the Church" and "why stain the Church?" and "who would believe you?"

As well as my anger at this behavior, I also am angered as to why the Church has not applied equal pressure to America's politicians and bishops about America's death penalty? Why merely edicts about women's autonomy? Could it be that Rome's canonical lawyers and the Holy See know where it can get greater traction for the buck? for the kick? that it's a dead-end (pardon the pun) about America's death penalty? and to pursue it would anger the very "born again" Protestant base who share the anti-abortion anti-women's autonomy crap?

[eridani]

84. They should take a big hint from Bishop Kinney

http://www.stcdio.org/bishop/bishop_easter.html

A priest in Michigan printed this letter from Bishop John F. Kinney of St. Cloud, MN, in the bulletin.

"Oh Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed."

Each of us prays those words at every Mass before receiving Holy Communion. In recent months, however, some Catholics have been asking whether some others are so “not worthy” that they should be denied the sacrament. It has been suggested, for example, that bishops refuse to offer Communion to pro-choice politicians, or to legislators who favor same-sex marriage, or cloning, or stem cell research, or capital punishment, or the war in Iraq, or . . . the list seems to grow longer every day. It has also been suggested that Catholics who vote for politicians who hold certain views on these issues should not present themselves for Communion.

(snip)

You may be wondering about my position on the question of denying Communion to various categories of people. I want you to know that I refuse to allow the Eucharistic liturgy to become politicized. What I mean is that I will not allow Holy Communion to be used as a weapon in ongoing political and ideological battles. For this reason, it is not my intention to reject anyone who comes forward in a respectful manner to receive the Body and Blood of Christ.

(snip)

I return to the prayer with which I began. Note that it says, "Oh Lord, I am not worthy." It does not say, "Oh Lord, my neighbor is not worthy."

[TeacherCreature]

96. "Oh Lord, I am not worthy." It doesn't say, "Oh Lord, my neighbor is not..

Good for him. I wish some of the priest around here had such courage.

[eridani]

86. Poll of Catholics on the subject

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=114-06172004
Attempts by conservative Catholic organizations to pressure bishops to deny communion fails to reflect the position of rank- and-file Catholics: 76 percent disapprove of Catholic bishops denying communion to Catholics who support legal abortion and 78 percent believe that politicians who are Catholic and who support legal abortion SHOULD NOT be denied communion.

-- Just 16 percent believe that politicians who are Catholic have a religious obligation to vote on issues the way Catholic bishops recommend; 83 percent believe there is no religious obligation.

-- Three-fourths (74 percent) rejected the notion that Catholic voters have a religious obligation to vote against candidates who support legal abortion.

-- Finally, American Catholics indicated the extent to which the bishops have lost their moral authority with Catholics. When asked how important the views of the Catholic bishops in the US are in deciding whom to vote for, only seven percent indicated that the bishops' views were very important, 23 percent somewhat important, 30 percent not very important, and a full 40 percent stated the bishops' views were not important at all in deciding whom they would vote for.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

98. Confirms my views as a Catholic are well in the majority

Thank You! Catholics are generally tolerant.

[hedgehog]

145. just what I wanted to say

This doesn't change the vote one way or another. Believe me, most active Catholics listen to most bishops only under duress such as being required to sit though the sermon at a Confirmation. The only bishops we listen to are on our side anyways. Remember, Jesus is a bleeding heart liberal.

[Endangered Specie]

87. How many altar boys you have to fondle before you

can't get communion? Even better how many in order to not be allowed to GIVE communion?

[saigon68]

127. They weren't just FONDLING the Alter Boys

Anal Rapes by Priests were committed against CHILDREN BY these PEDOPHILES.

That's how 5 BILLION $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ---$5,000,000,000.00 in Judgments and settlements were RUNG up BY THE VICTIMS of THIS FORCED SODOMY on CHILDREN'S RECTUMS.

[Joanne98]

89. Here's my thread

On the extended fundie family problem.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=66114&mesg_id=66114

It has everything. Texas fundies,bapists,evangelicals,opus dei,Rev Moon, The Family etc....... And they're all CONSERVATIVES. Who said the label conservative couldn't be demonized. I think I did a pretty good job.:)

[eridani]

93. Double standard for Democrats and Republicans

http://www.alternet.org/stories/19101/

So far sanctions have been applied in a decidedly partisan manner. While Catholic Democratic Governor McGreevey was sanctioned, in part for his support for abortions, Catholic Republican Governor Pataki of New York, who holds similar views on abortion, was not.

Sacramento Bishop Wiegand chastised Catholic Democratic Governor Gray Davis for supporting abortion rights and recommended that he refrain from taking Communion. But he has issued no warning to Catholic Republican Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, who also supports abortion rights.

The Pope has clearly and consistently spoken out against abortion. But as Reverend Reese has noted, in a private Mass in 2003, the Pope himself gave Communion to Tony Blair, a pro-abortion Episcopalian. U.S. Catholic bishops would be well-served if they were to emulate the example of the head of their Church.

[TeacherCreature]

101. Yup, it's all politics,,,, let's tax the offending churches

maybe that will get them to stop interfering in my civil rights.

[Jane Eyre]

115. NC Governor (Democrat) is Catholic

The edict affects the western half of North Carolina but not the eastern half. Therefore Governor Easley, a practicing Catholic, risks being denied communion should he attend mass in the western half of the state.

[leftchick]

128. The Charlotte diocese covers the Piedmont area as well...

Which includes Winston-Salem, High Point and Greensboro. This sucks! I knew I was not going to like this new Bishop. The Catholic church has become so wrapped up in politics over the last few years I can barely stand it and this will make matters worse. I am dreading this Governor's race with all of those RW fundies vying to run against Easley. :grr:

[DemBones DemBones]

117. DUers will stand up for Muslim business owners who fire an employee

for eating a BLT on the premises, which is clearly an attempt to force non-Muslims to abide by Muslim proscriptions on food. . . DUers speak respectfully of Muslim sensibilities about pork. . . . Tolerance is preached.

yet when Catholic bishops try to get Catholic politicians to abide by Catholic teaching, hate and profanity are spewed at the Catholic Church. Catholic sensibilities about abortion are to be ignored if not despised, and certainly never given any respect at DU. . . Where did tolerance go?

(And someone will post a reply to this that is a complete non sequitur about priests abusing children.)


It's a miracle of Jesus that any Catholics still vote Democratic!

Karl Rove has tried to win over Catholic voters, with minimal success, so far.

If Catholics left the Democratic Party en masse, Dems would be SOL. It would be much, much worse than the loss of the South as a Democratic bloc has been.

Think about that next time you think about posting anti-Catholic thoughts.

[coda]

123. " It's a miracle of Jesus that any Catholics still vote Democratic! "

This is a board with 40,000+ posters and there are always a dozen or so that don't like the Catholic Church and are vocal about it.


What about the Catholics that disagree with Bishops that are being selective in denying communion? Where's the precedent? The Pope gave communion to Tony Blair, didn't he?

Would they be more at home with the Republicans, with Bush speaking at Bob "The Pope is the anti-Christ" Jones U?


"If Catholics left the Democratic Party en masse, Dems would be SOL."

True. Where would the Catholic Church be if the Democrats left en masse?

I doubt that either of those things are going to happen, but I damn sure know what political party works 24/7 to divide this country along every line, but esp. along religious lines, and you do too.

Their effectiveness (Vote ONE issue, forget EVERYTHING else) shows up on this board constantly.

[Catt03]

135. So in reading all you posts, let me clarify your position

You are supporting the bishops who made the declaration denying Catholics communion if they are pro choice. Is that correct?

You are also supporting the Catholic Church's right to become involved in national politics. Is that correct?

You are going to vote how the Catholic Church tells you too. Is that correct?

I am confused. Since Pro Choice is a Democratic Party issue, you will not vote for any Democrat who supports pro choice. Is that correct?

[scottxyz]

124. Excommunicate the shellfish eaters too

It says so right here in Leviticus.

What a bunch of idiots.

Tax the churches, I say.

[impe]

141. Which reminds me, whatever happened

to the eating Fish on Friday rule?

The CC is the only church that has a seat at the United Nations. For those who enjoy long range plans, there are MAJOR issues brewing coming down the pike. This Communion ban is the only beginnning....first the politicians and guess who's next...

[noonwitch]

131. Catholics who have a problem with this should cut off all donations

How long do you think the church will continue to deny communion if there is a major dent in donations? Anyone who thinks that the church won't compromise it's values for something as base as money only needs to look at the sexual abuse scandals-they've already compromised for something far more base than money.


Better yet, find a new church. The Episcopalians do a high mass thing for those who find most protestant communion to be too informal. They won't turn anyone away, nor will the Methodists, UCC, Presbytarian USA, most Lutherans, etc. UU and Unity don't do communion.

[Tracer]

142. There is a difference between "supporting abortion" ...

... and "accepting (however reluctantly) abortion as the law of the land".

This is my position Ñ and the position of many Catholic lawmakers including Kerry, Cuomo and many others that I've heard speak on the subject.

It may seem like splitting hairs to some, but it gets to the core of a person private, personal beliefs, yet allows for the beliefs of others in a pluralistic society.

(Besides, the CC has centuries of experience in splitting moral hairs).

[pathansen]

143. WHAT ABOUT ALL THOSE PRIESTS WHO MOLESTED CHILDREN?

[TaleWgnDg]

144. huh? wha? you don't know? well . . . here you go:

http://news.findlaw.com/news/s/20040805/popelawdc.html

Unfortunately, the state laws of Massachusetts at the time did NOT have criminal laws on its books that would toss this guy into a jail cell; however, since that time, Massachusetts has promulgated state criminal laws that would apply. No, he cannot be criminally charged retroactively. Why? To do so would be unconstitutional.

Therefore, there he sits u/ the "protection," if you will, of the Holy See (the Pope)! Outrage?! Outrage, you say?!!!

[LeftyDonkey]

146. My friends...

What to say about this thread? The bishops are wrong. Many American Catholics disagree with the Bishops and the Vatican over a number of issues, including the use of the Eucharist as a political weapon. Some, but not many, support the Bishops.
DemBones: I wish I could send a private message to you, but I do not have enough posts. I want to thank you for standing up against this barrage of anti-Catholic hatred.
Anti-Catholicism has a long and ugly history in the United States. To see it rear its ugly head on a progressive forum like this is saddening. Have we all forgotten about Dorothy Day? Archbishop Romero? Liberation Theology? Father Daniel Berrigan? the Plowshares movement? RFK? Mario Cuomo?
The Catholic church is not the center of all evil in the world, as was suggested by an earlier DUer. Nor is it the center of all good. The divisive rhetoric on this thread is worthy of Bob Jones University's textbooks. Are DUers stealing from the evangelical playbook now? I'm waiting for someone to call the Pope the anti-christ. The Republican party is trying to divide that Catholic vote in America which has always been traditionally Democratic. Democrats and Catholics stand together on human rights, social and economic justice, peace and capital punishment. Only on abortion do the Republicans and Catholic theology see eye to eye. There are many areas where the Church needs to reform itself and do the right thing. I urge all DUers to do the right thing: stand in solidarity with progressive Catholics and Christians. Religion does not belong to the Right.

[JerseygirlCT]

147. Good post, Lefty.

[CBHagman]

149. Remind me not to move to Charleston.

Check this out:

"Archbishop Raymond Burke of St. Louis said in January he would refuse Communion to Democrat John Kerry, a Catholic who supports abortion rights. However, the three Southern bishops appeared to go further, by setting up strict requirements for the prohibition to be lifted.

Baker, in a separate statement to his diocesan clergy, said parish priests would not be allowed to decide whether a public figure is worthy of resuming Communion: 'That determination is reserved to me personally.'"

In effect, he's setting himself up as the ONLY person in the diocese who decides whether a politician receives communion. There's no confessional, no reconciliation, no judgment on the part of the parish priest.

What a power-mad FREAK.

By the way, in my parish, some of us have gone to communion wearing Kerry t-shirts or buttons. I generally take off any slogan buttons at work or church, so as not to distract people or start fights, but sometimes the button is left on.

And I think the bishops would be driven almost to madness if they realized how many of their parishioners make decisions of which the church hierarchy disapprove. There are plenty of practicing Catholics who are either pro-choice, contraceptive-using, or actively gay.