Kerry OK with gay-marriage ban

[newbie2be]

KANSAS CITY, Mo. — Sen. John Kerry said in an interview published yesterday that he would have voted for the gay-marriage ban passed overwhelmingly this week by Missouri voters.

The Democratic presidential nominee, who spent parts of two days stumping across the state, told The Kansas City Star the ballot measure was the same as one his home state of Massachusetts passed a few years ago. Kerry supported that measure.

In a separate interview with Kansas City's NBC affiliate, Kerry reiterated that he and Sen. John Edwards oppose gay marriage, although they favor civil unions.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001999067_kerrygay07.html

[La Lioness Priyanka]

1. umm when he said individual states should decide

i think he meant it

[JohnKleeb]

3. he also voted against DOMA as we know

and I know for a fact hes not exactly pissed off that Ma judges for their decision.

[foreigncorrespondent]

60. John...

...he might not be pissed at the Mass. judges, but he supports a constitutional ban against gay marriages in Mass.

[ldf]

99. kerry is doing only what he has to do, but it is still pandering...

we must protect the heterosexuals (special) rights to the revolving door heterosexual marriage.

a child MUST have two parents, one of each sex. and if that is so good, why not four, or eight?

and lets get the grandparents included. how many grandparents would be clamoring for access to their grandchildren, whether the parents (all eight of them) wanted it or not.

and to think that the rabid right who are pushing the sanctity of the revolving door heterosexual marriage are now finally admitting that to raise one child, taking all parents and grandparents into account, it obviously TAKES A VILLAGE!

[rawstory]

6. Doesn't this reek of state's rights -- remember slavery and civil rights?

This states rights thing is total bullshit. Come on, Kerry, grow some balls if you're going to take a position. This is again evidence of him riding the fence.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

11. what other evidence is there?

[justin899]

69. Yup

That's exactly what it is!

[newbie2be]

8. Kerry signed letter backing gay marriage

WASHINGTON (AP) — Democratic presidential hopeful John Kerry, who opposes gay marriage and hints he might support a limited ban, just two years ago signed a letter with other congressional colleagues urging the Massachusetts legislature to drop a constitutional amendment outlawing homosexual nuptials.

"I believe and have fought for the principle that we should protect the fundamental rights of gay and lesbian couples — from inheritance to health benefits. I believe the right answer is civil unions. I oppose gay marriage and disagree with the Massachusetts Court's decision," Kerry said last week after the court ruling.

When asked whether he might support Massachusetts' constitutional amendment, he said it was possible.

"It depends entirely on the language on whether it supports civil union and partnership or not. I'm for civil union, I'm for partnership rights. I think what ought to condition this debate is not the term marriage, as much as the rights that people are afforded," Kerry told National Public Radio on Monday.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-02-11-kerry-gay-marriage_x.htm

[Dookus]

2. Yup

the right-wing plan to use gay marriage to split the left is proceeding nicely.

[stepnw1f]

5. Not Really

[Dhalgren]

38. Yeah, it ain't gonna work, as they say.

Regardless of how many "newbies" come on this board to cause friction with "innocent posts", it won't work. Kerry on his worst day is 1000% better than Bush on his best day. There is no comparason. Let these "newbies" post and nobody respond - that's my suggestion.

[primavera]

62. And 1000% worse than a real Democrat

No, you don't need to yell at me, Kerry's got my vote, I'm not going to go voting for Nader of anything, but it still is pretty disappointing that this is the best we can do. A few weeks ago, the Washington bureau chief for The Economist was being interviewed on Bill Moyers and he was observing that even our Democrats are off the charts conservative as far as Europe is concerned. Ralph Nader on Bill Maher last week asked why is it that, with all of the qualified, brilliant people we have in this country, the best we can do is dumb and dumber? Okay, dumb's better than dumber every day of the week and twice on Sunday, but I think Ralph's got a point: it doesn't really speak very well for us that this is the best we can do.

[rawstory]

4. What a tool

Again, I reiterate why, even as the editor of a popular liberal news website, The Raw Story (http://rawstory.com), I could never vote in good conscience for John Kerry. Although admit I might have a different position if I lived in a swing state -- I'm in MA.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

16. You do whatever you think is best...do you want FratBoy to stay in...

...the White House? Are you that prideful that you can't see the right thing to do?

At least Kerry has expressed support for gay and lesbian civil unions, which is a heck of a lot better than FratBoy's position, don't you think?

[IndianaGreen]

7. Shame!

What would have happened had President Roosevelt opposed segregation as Eleanor Roosevelt wanted him to do? Would segregation have come to an end decades before it did? I think so.

Opposition to full equal rights to gays and lesbians is not unlike to opposition to integration. The same arguments that were used to justify racial discrimination are now being used to justify discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, including opposition to same sex marriage.

[BayCityProgressive]

12. as a gay democrat

this makes me really sad that I have to vote for some asshole politician who doesnt think I should have the same rights as other people. I will vote for Kerry because he supports ENDA and hate crimes legislation as well as lifting the military gay ban and he supports civil unions. I am not a selfish person and so i will also be casting my vote for a raise for minimum wage, because he is pro choice, pro-affirmative action and many other things. However, his opposition to my right to live a life like anyone else has ensured he will get no money or campaign work out of me. He shall recieve my vote, that is all.

[Seabiscuit]

19. Indeed!

Civil unions is a good *start*, but without *marriage* rights gay couples still lose out on dozens of legal benefits enjoyed by straight married couples.

Kerry's walking a tightrope on this issue. He knows he'll get pounded mercilessly in the press if he comes out publicly in favor of gay marriage *at this time*. So he says he opposes it while favoring civil unions on a state-by-state level. Perhaps if he wins in November he may *some day* be persuaded to make forceful public statements in favor of gay marriage and all the additional attendant rights. Perhaps he'll only do it after winning a second term, when his political future is not at stake.

The sad thing is there has been so much bigotry and propaganda on this "wedge" issue this past year that the public has been "terra-ized" into opposing gay marriage (as if that gay couple living down the street somehow posed any kind of threat to your straight married lifestyle).

Almost half of voting Americans, if you are naive enough to believe the pollsters, are stumbling around like the "living dead" - zombied out on Fox, CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC and Clear Channel right-wing radio talk shows.

[TheWraith]

29. Come on, kids, be reasonable.

Any state-by-state attempts to ban gay marriage will eventually be struck down by the Supremes. The only real way to oppose gay marriage is to support a constituional amendment, which Kerry vehemently rejects. "Let the states decide" is a nudge-wink way of supporting gay marriage without letting the Repubs use it as a wedge issue, as well as depressing Bush's religious fundamentalist turnout.

[Seabiscuit]

37. Don't look now,

but I think you're helping me make my point.

Right now in America the Repukes have turned gay marriage into a political football/hot potato that the Dems running for office dare not touch. For now.

[Barret]

50. Dozens?

Try hundreds.

[justin899]

72. Over 1,100 Last Count

especially in the tax code.

[paulk]

85. "What would have happened had President Roosevelt

opposed segregation..."

He would have been voted out of office?

[trogdor]

94. Are you kidding me?

If FDR opposed segregation, he would never have been elected President in the first place. This was 1932, forchrissakes! I think enough people would have convinced themselves to believe Hoover's BS if FDR ran on a platform of desegregation. There would have been NO New Deal, NO Social Security, or ANY of the good things FDR accomplished.

I acknowledge that you are right, but there is a time and a place for everything, and the time to beat on Kerry about gay rights is AFTER we get him elected. I think you'll find him a LOT more receptive to what you have to say AFTER he sends the Bushies packing. Furthermore, you already know for a FACT that you will get exactly nothing you want from the Bushies. Therefore, I suggest we all put this issue on the back burner where it belongs.

[Lorien]

9. Once again, Kerry seems to be doing his best

to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. :eyes:

[Southsideirish]

45. I wish he would stop running from his friggin' base! Bush keeps his

base close and gives them many strokes while all we get is a kick in the ass as our guy waltzes to the "center".

[Lorien]

91. We had this woman from the Kerry campaign

at our local house party. I swear, it was like listening to a member of the young republicans! She kept talking about her earliest childhood memories (fall of the Berlin wall), and how REAGAN was such an inspiration to her. She didn't think ONE of Kerry's votes was wrong, and kept going on and on about his status as a decorated vet-hey, there's more to run on than that! Worst was when someone at the party got in an argument with her about his IRW vote; "why doesn't he just say he was lied to"? the volunteer asked "Well, his vote was the right thing to do and I agree with it" chirped the Kerry rep. "and it would be political suicide for him to say he was mislead"!
"Why"? I had to ask "the same statement works for Bush* EVERY TIME"!

I'm proud to be a liberal Democrat, I sure as hell wish my candidate were as proud of just being a Democrat!

[Blue_Roses]

10. I'm so tired of this being a wedge issue in this campaign

we live paycheck to paycheck worrying all the time if some catastrophe happens, what the hell will we do. WE don't have any benefits with my spouse's job and he has taken a cut in pay since his company's existence lays on a thread.

Geeze...marriage is not THAT GREAT! Good grief:eyes:

[Toots]

13. It is all symantics

He is for two people being able to join in a union with all the rights and privileges of any married hetrosexual couple. For the sake of politics he doesn't want to call it marriage. Give him a break. He is trying to become President. Rome was not built in a day. Blacks have had to suffer the pace of justice as well. It happens, but sometimes nowhere near as fast as we would like.

[IndianaGreen]

15. Missouri did not pass a civil union law

and none of the other states that are considering changing their constitutions to establish apartheid for GLBTs are going to pass civil unions.

The moral failure of Kerry and Edwards is that they could have taken a principled stand for full equal rights instead of endorsing a second class citizenship for gays and lesbians, which is exactly what takes place when they changed the state constitution.

Bush is so wounded that there is no need to pander to bigotry!

Kerry's victory in November is going to be a Pyrrhic victory for GLBTs!

[JI7]

17. why wasn't this an issue during the primaries ?

[IndianaGreen]

20. It was, but you guys didn't want to hear us!

We were the ones in the back of the bus, remember?

[JI7]

21. not really

i didn't really see any of the candidates criticize Kerry for opposing it.

[IndianaGreen]

23. Kucinich supported same sex marriage

and plenty of us in DU attacked the cowardness of those that were all too willing to sacrifice our rights and liberties on the altar of political expediency.

This issue won't go away!

Look how stupid Americans look compared to countries like Canada, the UK, and even Spain that are passing or have passed laws legalizing same sex marriage.

[JI7]

25. i thought you supported Dean

i know kucinich supported same sex marriage. but why didn't many on du support kucinich ? didn't you say kucinich turned his back on the anti war people by supporting edwards in the iowa caucuses ?

and i don't ever remember you making a case to support kucinich over all the other candidates based on his support for same sex marriage.

[IndianaGreen]

27. I ended up supporting and voting for Kucinich

I was originally for Dean, but switched to Dennis right after the ABC debate because I was offended by the way Tep Koppel referred to Kucinich's candidacy as a vanity candidacy.

The war is the most important issue, but so are my civil rights which is why I oppose PATRIOT and efforts to constitutionally ban same sex marriage.

[JI7]

30. what issue is most important depends on the voter

some voters think same sex marriage is the most important issue but they think it's important to ban it as most in missouri voted to do.

there are some gays who don't think same sex marriage is that important . they think tax cuts are more important which is why they support bush even though he wants a federal amendment to ban same sex marriage which wont be easy to get rid of if enacted as it would be to strike down state constitutional bans as long as we get a majority on the supreme court.

[IndianaGreen]

32. Is that why we pander to those that lead the country in "dumbness"?

CNN LARRY KING LIVE

Interview with Bill Maher

Aired July 22, 2004 - 21:00 ET

KING: Do you think it's an issue? you think gay marriage is going to be an issue in the election?

MAHER: They're making it an issue. That's another perfect example of religion making something that makes absolutely no sense into an issue. To a rational person, anyone with eyes can see God, and I believe in God, or a higher being, I just don't believe in the people who pretend they're talking for him. They can see that God or nature created, nature, even in the animal world, a gay minority. It's just a fact. For some reason, God wanted a gay minority among us. Maybe it's because we're too aggressive and gays are less aggressive. Although not at the Ramrod on Saturday night. Not that I would know that.

But I don't know. That's what the rational mind says. The rational mind takes it as the given. There are gay people in the world. The irrational mind...

KING: They're not saying there aren't. They're just saying they shouldn't get married. Marriage is a man and a woman. They acknowledge that there are gays in the world.

MAHER: What they acknowledge is that there are gays because it's a choice. They believe it is a choice. They believe, as the Bible says, it is an abomination. And it's not a choice. It's obviously not a choice. So they're working From this ridiculous premise. They think that if people get married, if gay people get married, it will lead to more homosexuality. As if guys like you and me, Larry, are just looking for a little legal cover to get together with each other.

<snip>

KING: You think in modern-day America you could still claim a whole region is dumber than another region?

MAHER: They lead the region in dumbness, yes, they do. Because there's just too many people who think that every problem can be solved by either more guns or more Jesus. And like I said, I'm with the people who are following the compass. Not the people who are reading the entrails of the chicken. They're the people who are reading the entrails of the chicken.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0407/22/lkl.00.html

[JI7]

40. yeah, we need dumb asses to win

if we didn't kerry could campaign as he did in massachusettes. he wouldn't have to worry about whether people thought he believed in god enough or some other crap. when kerry said he wished bush would stop talking about religion and stop claiming god was on our side he got a lot of crap for that. edwards being from the south understands how to deal with these things so kerry now uses the line edwards gave about lincoln saying we should pray we are on god's side.

but even that line doesn't apply to all americans since not everyone is a monotheist or even believes in god. i wasn't raised in one of the monotheistic religions, but i understand the need to "pander" to certain people to get their support. it's worth it in the short term to help preserve the separation of church and state through supreme court appointments to me.

[IndianaGreen]

42. They are better off not saying anything at all, than to say something

that gives aid and comfort to the bigots!

[JI7]

43. not really

Kerry was asked about it when he said he wished bush would stop talking about religion so much and claiming god is on our side.

and since kerry is form massachusettes these issues will come up a lot. there is a lot of prejudice against him just because he is from there.

[loyalsister]

31. Winning Missouri

is harder than you think. He's doing what he can here. People need to relax.

[IndianaGreen]

36. Missouri does not consider the killing of gays a hate crime

and sadly, neither does my state!

Gays and lesbians can be fired just for being gay and lesbian. People can be harassed on the job because of their sexual orientation and there is nothing they can do about it:

Because they worked in the same unit, Hamner and
Edwards had to communicate with each other to
provide patient care. According to Hamner, he and
Edwards had a poor working relationship. Edwards
would refuse to acknowledge or communicate with
Hamner, screamed at him during telephone
conversations, and harassed him by lisping at
him, flipping his wrists, and making jokes about
homosexuals.

Hamner v. St. Vincent Hospital, U.S. Court of Appeals 7th District (2000).

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=7th&no=99-3086

Now in addition to all of the problems the GLBT community is having, we have the Democratic ticket giving a pass to bigotry.

[loyalsister]

57. We need to win

Chastising Missouri for passing this Amendment doesn't get Kerry any closer to getting those 11 EVs. Sorry, but we need them. Let's get *co out of there and work on perfecting things after.

[foreigncorrespondent]

61. Maybe so...

...but you also need the votes the LGBT community will bring in, so pissing off an entire community isn't going to win you too many of their votes.

[loyalsister]

98. The fact is

Democrats supported that amendment. In fact, it was on the ballot because out of the 70 House Democrats, only 23 voted against it.
http://www.showmenews.com/2004/Apr/20040401News006.asp

Do you think he doesn't know these things when he comes here? It's not as if He's in a moderate state. Since the Republicans took over, he's in what amounts to northern Mississippi.
The cities and Columbia are progressive areas. The rest is backwoods. And even the Democrats are anti-choice pro-gun homophobes.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

14. Why is this in LBN?? This is old news, and most of us know it.

[IndianaGreen]

18. The date on the story is Saturday, August 07, 2004

Or would you rather have it buried in the I/P forum?

Here, I will bury it for you:

ISRAEL! PALESTINE! SHARON! ARAFAT!

There! Are you happy now?

[foo_bar]

56. you missed one

"I won't tell you what I really think, lest I be branded an anti-semite (of all things!)"

[Liberal Veteran]

22. Unfortunately people, half a loaf is better than starving.

I can live with civil unions for the time being.

[IndianaGreen]

24. We are getting no loaf, and not even a slice of bread

We are being told to shut up and sit in the back of the Democratic bus. Anyone that mentions PATRIOT Act, the war in Iraq, the Occupation of Palestine, or gay marriage will be dragged out of the bus and beaten to a pulp by the Thought Police.

[JI7]

26. when were you dragged out of the bus and beaten to the pulp ?

[Liberal Veteran]

28. No we aren't. We have to face political realities.

And the political reality is that we are slowly but surely winning the war.

Give it some time. More and more communities are passing civil union ordinances (the half a loaf I referred to) and it's a small step toward the goal.

[TheWraith]

34. Exaggerate much?

The real reason that the far left can't get some--and I emphasize some, since the neutering of the USAPATRIOT Act, gay marriage, and defusing Iraq ARE moving forward--of its pet causes advanced is because they're unwilling to be mature and pragmatic. Politics is the art of compromise, but the Nader/Green types refuse to compromise at all. They'd rather jump to their demise trying to leap over the canyon in a single bound rather than take a little time to build a bridge and walk across. And the crazier they act, the more people ignore them as being irrelevant. That's why you folks are so often referred to a 'suicide doves.' You damage your cause by way of impatience. And it isn't that the rest of us disagree with you, it's that we recognize that our efforts require time, subtlty, and occaisionally politics.

[IndianaGreen]

39. You are speaking of subjugation and abuse--there is no compromise

Where is the compromise on Iraq, or on PATRIOT, or NAFTA, Palestine, or on same sex marriage? We are being told to toe the DLC party line and to shut up. That's not a compromise, and if that was the way you treated your spouse, he or she would have divorced you a long time ago!

This is no way to treat the ABB coalition!

blackwhite - The ability to accept whatever "truth" the party puts out, no matter how absurd it may be. Orwell described it as "...loyal willingness to say black is white when party discipline demands this. It also means the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know black is white, and forget that one has ever believed the contrary."

Newspeak Dictionary

http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/

[Dhalgren]

46. None of those issues that you listed are "moving forward"

and anyone who believes they are "moving forward" is a fool or an idiot. More people have died in the month following the faux handover of power in Iraq than died the previous month! The unPatriot act is still a threat to US citizens' rights, and marriage is a HUMAN right not a dumbassed Christianist right! If I come off as angry, it is because rightwing stupidity makes me so!

[merh]

44. No one is telling you to sit in the back of the bus

It is suggested that you grasp the practical aspects of campaigning and holding elected office.

"Anyone that mentions PATRIOT Act, the war in Iraq, the Occupation of Palestine, or gay marriage will be dragged out of the bus and beaten to a pulp by the Thought Police."

If it takes riding the fence for Kerry to defeat the weed that would be king, so be it. Ride that fence Mr. Kerry, ride it well.

The most important issue is getting the weed out of office.

Do you want the political truth. The big dawg cheneyed the party. He was a centralist that screwed us on some many policies, but the worst thing he did was get the BJ in office because he could when he knew that he was the target of the RWers efforts to destroy him.

His BJ and fall from grace resulted in the loss of offices and candidates that lost their races because they were part of the Dem party, his party. His sheer stupidity and ego allowed the repukes to take the moral high ground that has shafted the party for close to 8 years now. Its very hard to find good dem candidates to run and its hard to get the dems to support dem candidates because they always lose. Alot of that is do to big dawg and his bj and his "depends on what is is".

For you to expect Kerry to come out on a violatile issue while campaigning is ludicrous. For you to expect Kerry to come out and say what he will actually do when in office is not practical, he hasn't a clue as to how cheneyed things are as a result of the reign of the weed and to make empty promises is stupid ("read my lips, no new taxes").

If laws govern marriage, the same laws can be written to govern civil union - it is that simple. I know folks who have never married that consider themselves married. If it is just the word you want, then find a religious leader to marry you (they are out there), if it is the legal protections you desire, then civil unions will work.

Accept that for now and let the man get into office, but don't sit on your a** and say told you so when he does. We have let the party down as much as they have let us down. The repukes have been grass roots and have been a more organized party - they have taken the process serious. Run for office yourself and/or support candidates that share your feelings on the issues. We are a pathetic group of folks who will criticize our leaders, but we will not try to win the offices ourselves or will find, encourage and support folks who share our views.

[bluestateguy]

51. We have a nominee now

Everybody had their chance to make their case during the primaries. I supported Wes Clark. The Democratic primary voters have spoken, and rather overwhelmingly, they have chosen John Kerry. Now it's time for all left of center people to unite behind the nominee.

[IndianaGreen]

52. Knee-jerk support of a position on an issue is not part of the deal

Kerry is wrong about the war, PATRIOT, NAFTA and same sex marriage, just as he is dead wrong about I/P, Cuba, and Venezuela.

Voting for Kerry in November does not mean SILENCE when he says something we disagree with.

What are you going to tell us next year? "Shut up because we are undermining the new President's agenda"?

[Cha]

55. I talked today ..to a gay friend at the co-op and he

his soooo behind Kerry! This man is looking at the Big Picture!

[geek tragedy]

33. Very disappointing.

Just say you're for civil unions and think it should be a state matter, John.

No one's going to vote for you because you say you oppose gay marriage.

[Tansy_Gold]

35. Nobody's perfect.

I'm not even sure I'd vote for myself if I were looking for a perfect candidate.

People who keep picking away at reasons to / to not vote for Kerry Edwards might just as well give up.

Do you want boosh & co. to take complete control of the US, or not? Much as we like to see the rest of the issues in nuanced shades of grey, this one is strictly red and blue. Either John Kerry or Gag-reflex boosh is going to emerge victorious after Nov. 2. Make up your mind, one or the other.



Tansy Gold, who favors civil unions for EVERYONE, with the government out of religious ceremonies altogether.

[Corkey Mineola]

41. Politically Astute Way vs. the Right Way

Kerry is clearly taking the politically astute way on this issue. I don't believe, for a minute, that he REALLY opposes gay marriages. It's a third-rail issue for politicians.

Granting US full participation in all aspects of this society is the RIGHT thing to do.

Then the next thing to do is overthrow the heterosexual hegemony ... which I believe is dying out a bit with each generation. So all gender and sexual variation is valued and celebrated. And we don't measure against 'do we have what the HETS have?' (Do I WANT what they have? T.J. Maxx? Marshall's? Wal Mart? Everybody Loves Raymond... CHILLS...)

Unfortunately I'll be in the 'Gay and Gray Home' then. With the man I call my husband. I don't give a FUCK what everyone else calls him.

*as long as you send nice wedding presents... which you did!*

[iamjoy]

47. Supreme Court/Fourteenth Amendment

I am uncomfortable with Kerry's milquetoast "Civil Unions" stuff. But, Kerry and Edwards maintain high ratings from HRC. Also, if this issue makes it to the Supreme Court, whose nominees do you want hearing it?

What I would love to ask both Kerry and Bush is this: how can they justify anything but full acceptance of gay marriage and reconcile that with the 14th Amendment.

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside"

ALL PERSONS - so homosexuals are citizens.

"No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;"

Got that - these states cannot limit the privileges of citizens.

"nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Due process of law does not refer to states passing a law against gay marriage, it means if a person has been convicted of a crime they can lose some of their privileges. Clearly, based on the Fourteenth Amendment, THE STATES HAVE NO RIGHT passing a law banning gay marriage.

I would like to specifically remind Bush and Kerry of the Fourteenth Amendment and see how they can justify any attempt to limit the rights of citizens. There is no doubt in my mind that based on the 14th, this will go through the courts. And we must make sure we elect a president whose judicial nominees respect the constitution. Then, gay marriage will happen whether Kerry wants it or not.

[Downtown Hound]

48. Very disappointing...

But I'll vote for him anyway. Bush must go.

[bluestateguy]

49. Sorry, I'm not taking the bait: Lincoln was not an abolitionist in 1860

I will not be a part of Karl Rove's schemes to divide and demoralize the Left. Intelligent people ought to realize that in campaigns certain things just have to be said--or left unsaid. Believe it or not, not everybody sees the world the way people on DU do, and those are votes Kerry needs. I am confident that as president Kerry would do the right thing on this issue and on Iraq, but winning an election sometimes requires saying some things that the true believers just aren't going to like hearing.

In 1860, Abraham Lincoln was not an abolitionist. He was content to leave slavery alone where it already existed. The abolotionists made up a significant wing of the new Republican Party. Had they defected or stayed home, Stephen Douglas may have very well been elected president, and slavery would have continued for another generation. They realized that a pure abolitionist could not be elected president in 1860, but that Lincoln would put slavery on a course to extinction. Just as I believe Kerry will greatly advance equality for gays and lesbians, irregardless of what is said in campaigns.

[sampsonblk]

58. Bad example - Lincoln was on the record against slavery

Kerry is not on the record as supporting the concept of marriage for gays.

Lincoln ran a stealth campaign. No question. But he had already announced his position that slavery was immoral on several occasions. So Lincoln was backing off a strong position he had taken. Not so with Kerry.

[JI7]

65. and Kerry has already talked of equal rights for gays and has a perfect

record on issues of gay rights not just in talk but what he has done such as vote against doma, introduce legislation to protect gay rights. he also supports giving all the rights of married couples to gay couples. so far many civil unions do not give all the rights, kerry supports giving all those rights.

[sampsonblk]

79. If true, I stand corrected

I had not heard him say any such thing. But I could be wrong.

[Geo55]

53. YES !!!

EAT YOUR OWN CHILDREN , IT'LL BE A CAKE WALK


GROW UP ! BUSH IS GOING TO GET US KILLED !!

GAY OR STRAIGHT !!!

[Barret]

54. Why is he saying this?

I understand the goal is to get votes... but I don't think it will.

Look at this way. You have people who will vote based on same sex marriage, right? Right. OK - so here we have 2 candidates. Bush, who is against just about all GLBT rights, and Kerry who is for certain GLBT rights and against marriage.

Now - if YOU were going to base your vote on whoever opposed same sex marriage and you had your choice between bush and kerry (who supports civil unions) WHY THE HELL would you not vote for the real deal? In other words kerry is only losing votes on the left while NOT gaining votes from the right.

Additionally, people who oppose same sex marriage enough to base their vote on it probably are ALSO more right leaning in other regards as well, meaning they are more likely to vote for bush regardless.

[justin899]

84. You bring up a very good point

People who are opposed to gay marriage are also opposed to civil unions. They don't want any recognition of gays PERIOD.

So Kerry is shooting himself in the foot with this. He always couples his anti-marriage rhetoric with a pro civil unions and says he favors Civil Unions "which provide the exact same benefits" as marriage (which isn't possible without changing thousands of federal laws which would never make it out of congress, but that's another issue).

People opposed to marriage aren't going to vote for someone who supports marriage rights under another name. At the same time, many people in the LGBT community aren't going to vote for someone who says he has no problem with states writing bigotry into their state constitutions.

The only thing pandering to bigots is going to do is lose LGBT votes.

[Lorien]

93. You hit the nail on the head

Excellent observation and very succinctly put. I only wish Kerry and his DLC handlers could manage to come to such a logical conclusion!
:thumbsup:

[oasis]

59. As Raider's owner, Al Davis would say, "Just win baby".

:thumbsup:

[AlFrankenFan]

63. ...

:wow:

Personally this makes me sick...maybe it's cause I'm so liberal (BTW another thing to prove they both aren't liberal) but jeez...I think I'm going to be sick...I mean we all have our opinions...but it's hard for me to support a politician not for gay marriage...lemme go lie down...

[GoddessOfGuinness]

64. I think if he's going to make a statement like that,

he needs to emphatically announce that it should not be the government's responsibility to dictate matters of religion; and vocally support civil unions for all couples...heterosexual as well as homosexual.

It would not bother me in the least if the government no longer recognized my marriage, as long as they respect the civil union.

[Mom_and_Dad]

76. Marriage???

I didn't think that I had a marriage in the religious or moral sense anyway.
I and my wife were married in a Court by a Judge. No religion involved in anyway
shape or form. So why are all of these freaks talking about the "Gays" undermining
the sanctity of my marriage? I thought that it was a legally binding contract between
me and my wife? It was "By the authority vested in me by the state of Indiana" not
some random deity that the Judge pronounced us married.

My Brain Hurts! ;(

BTW, I live in Missouri and we just passed an amendment to the State constitution
that bans marriage for Homosexuals. I am not very happy about this and have not yet
taken my yard sign down against it. I still have trouble believing that 70% of the voting
public in this state is so hateful and Homophobic.

I think that I have the "evil" answer for this problem.
If marriage is so sanctimonious I think that they should ban divorce! :)
After all only straight people get divorced. Or is this some evil gay plot, once again?

I will give money and fight to see that everyone has the same rights whether these
bastards like it or not.

We must all hang together or we shall surely all hang separately.

What's next an amendment banning mixed race marriages?
Do they threaten the sanctity of the pure Aryn/white marriages?
Maybe letting the non white races marry at all is a mistake?
How far do these fundamentalists want to take this thing?
Should be be afraid or very afraid?

I know that these are very touchy subjects but I have seen people talking about
stuff that I thought was starting to go away in Nazi Germany and should have been
almost completely dead by now.

Please be patient with those of us who can't share your pain because we don't have
to put up with the injustices and indignities that you do.
Just for now let us get the Boy King out of the White House and then we will go to work
on the real president and see what we can accomplish.

Keep the faith we won't let you down!

PS. sorry about the stream of consciousness stuff...

[GoddessOfGuinness]

92. Right now it's a battle of semantics more than anything...

Civil union, marriage, partnership...they're all the same thing; except the fundies want to horde the term "marriage" for themselves. They've turned it into a religious issue based on their warped interpretation of their "bible".

All I'm saying is, at this point, the government ought to give them their stupid word, and henceforth recognize no marriages (as this is now a religious term, and not under the auspices of the government). And at the same time, grant the rights of civil union (formerly known as marriage) to all couples.

[NEDem]

66. chill

I don't like it one bit, however it is a political reality. We all knew he would say this, this shouldn't come as any surprise. Yes it IS discrimination, but damnit, I'll lie down and take this one if it means getting * out of the WH.

This issue is so phony, I don't see how anyone can get worked up over it. At some point the supreme court will rule it is discrimination, therefore unconstitutional, there's NO DOUBT in my mind as to that happening. Don't know when, but it WILL happen.

Everyone keep moving forward. We have * on the ropes we can't let up until the bell sounds at 8pm on Nov 2.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[justin899]

68. Kerry/Edwards Just Lost My Vote

At the end of the posted article it quotes Kerry as saying, "We've always argued the states will be capable of taking care of this by themselves," Kerry said. "... We didn't need a constitutional amendment in order to do what's right."

He thinks writing bigotry into state constitutions is "doing what's right?"

Nope. I will not vote for a person who backs bigoted legislation, regardless of party affiliation.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rose Siding]

71. He's ok with it. I'm not ok with it

I'm voting against Bush and that's how I'll explain it to my brother. Damn it, he should have the rights that I have.

BTW, anyone who thinks that marriage rights equate with civil unions, and that the conflict is about "semantics", already has the right to marry.

[westhollywooddem]

73. Do not talk about your right.s.

I had a late term abortion and I held my precious baby boy for two minutes before he died.

Kerry voted against late term abortions.

I had one and don't dare talk about your rights when I personally suffered a loss.

But, I am voting for Kerry and I am proud to say that fact.

[Rose Siding]

77. I think I will talk about my rights

Whenever I chose, as a matter of fact.

edit to add: Did your doctor use the term "late term abortion"? Didn't think so.

[westhollywooddem]

80. Yeah it was a late term abortion.

I delivered a perfectly healtly baby who weighed 2 pounds. He looked me in the eye for two minutes and I buried him. I had to deliver him as though he was a healthy child.

I love him and he will always be a part of me.

You are a mean person.


But, I will vote for Kerry.

[Spiffarino]

74. Dammit. This smacks so much of Jim Crow...

...and that sucks. But Kerry-Edwards are the A-team, and I am not going to let one issue stand in the way of ending the worst presidency we have ever known. Gay or straight, you've gotta fight the real enemy.

And remember gay friends and supporters, there will be lots of LCRs voting for the Shrub come November. We already know what he has done since losing the popular vote in 2000. Who knows what he'll do if he actually wins this time. Cancel the LCR vote. You'll feel better for doing that at least.

[Guaranteed]

75. Stu-pid.

Leadership, leadership, leadership.

Everyone knows how he feels, or should feel, about it. This just reeks of cowardice, and it's going to make him look bad.

If he can't stand up for his ideals, how will he stand up against the terrorists, right?

Leadership, leadership, leadership.

[westhollywooddem]

82. Cowardice is talking about shit that does not affect you.

I am not a coward. But, I am not stupid. When you run for presidency and have every statement analyzed; you and I can talk about being a coward.

[Enraged_Ape]

81. ALL marriages should be civil unions

Seriously, it's not the government's business who I'm fucking now or for the next five years, or with whom I pledge to spend the rest of my life. If I want to sign a document saying Mr. or Ms. X is my legal representative when I can't act for myself or when I depart this veil of tears--said party being my legal beneficiary and executor of anything I should own or owe after my departure--then that should be the whole of my obligation to the government, regardless of Mr. or Ms. X's or my gender.

This whole argument is ridiculous. The solution is so damned obvious. Even the Master Jesus told us to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's. If I want to bond to someone in front of a minister at a church or a Justice of the Peace, or in a private Wicca ceremony with a broomstick or a fucking drive-through at the neighborhood Sonic, that should be up to me. Just let me sign the MINIMUM paperwork with the State to let them know who is responsible for me after I make that kind of commitment.

This is all a bunch of bullshit thrown out there to divide us. Don't fall for it.

[lucky777]

95. I agree with you Enraged Ape

I hate to see people make it so Christianized -- just call it a civil contract.

But then again I had to be talked out of an Elvis Wedding in Vegas, so we did a civil ceremony at the county building.

[Bush was AWOL]

83. Every argument in this thread

is what the right wing wants. Congratulations for allowing them to accomplish their mission.

[westhollywooddem]

86. Perhaps you're right about how divisised we are

but we are not robots who post on the Free Republic. I think we should share our issues and flesh out our arguments before November.

We are Democrats and we should be proud of our differences.

I have great faith in my party.

And, I am proud to be a Democrat.

I want that fucker out of office.

He used the USSC to get elected. Let's boot his ass out of office!

[DaveSZ]

87. Three words:

"Chief justice Thomas"


Think people ffs.

[Bush was AWOL]

88. All I'm saying is that by Kerry saying he is for it will

accomplish absolutely nothing at this point. He took the only approach he could if he wants to be competitive in this election. If Bush wins, he appoints a few new judges to the SC and we are even further fucked. Discussing the issue is fine, but sitting out this election or voting for Nader will just make things much worse. But, you already said you are voting for Kerry which gives more hope for this issue.

[westhollywooddem]

89. Word

We are destroying ourselves and AWOL is correct. Karl Rove is probably getting a major hard-on regarding this discussion.

[westhollywooddem]

90. Word

We are destroying ourselves and AWOL is correct. Karl Rove is probably getting a major hard-on regarding this discussion.

[lucky777]

96. We don't accept these 'compromises' when they come from Bush

so I won't accept it here. He's being a fucking pussy about this (pardon my French).

God, I really hate Kerry. Voting for him is going to suck.

[merh]

97. Here is a post that you might find enlightening.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=600446&mesg_id=600446&page=