Latest smear boat vets talking point.

[Timbuk3]

(I read the new rules. I decided to let the moderator decide if this post is OK, or not. If not, please feel free to move it.)

Drudge is reporting that: KERRY LIED ABOUT SPENDING CHRISTMAS IN CAMBODIA

Since the early 1970s, Kerry has spoken and written of how he was illegally ordered to enter Cambodia. Kerry mentioned it in the floor of the Senate in 1986 when he charged that President Reagan’s actions in Central America were leading the U.S. in another Vietnam. Here’s what he said as excerpted from the new book, UNFIT FOR COMMAND:

I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared--seared--in me.

DRUDGE has learned from the accounts of Swift Boat officers and Kerry’s crewmembers that Kerry was never in Cambodia. UNFIT FOR COMMAND authors charge that Kerry made it all up.

http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc91.htm

Has anyone read the counter to this, yet? If so, I'd appreciate a link to the story.

TIA

[wyldwolf]

1. Well, the source is O'Neill's book...

... so ... when a more credible source states it is when it becomes, well, credible.

[Timbuk3]

2. I understand

When you say that the same group that centered their book around Elliot's "affidavit a day" flip-flops I can agree that none of their claims have any credibility.

If going into Camboda was illegally ordered, how would you go about proving it, anyway?

I just like to REALLY crush 'em. If there's a better argument than that, I'd like to hear it.

[wyldwolf]

4. Here is a start for you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=109x11823

[sundancekid]

3. here's a boston globe story from last year; sure better than Sludge

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061603.shtml

[tandot]

5. Kerry is such a liar. While Bush was protecting our homeland from Charlie

fighting for his and his fellow soldiers life...risking his own life to save America...Kerry was slacking off...I knew it. /sarcasm

[brooklynite]

34. Well, did Vietnam ever successfully invade Texas?

Can't you imagine him walking out of a bar at 3 AM, ever alert for Viet Cong in in the darkness?

[Timbuk3]

6. Thanks to both of you

I'll read through them.

Any other help would be...well...helpful.

[DemoTex]

7. FWIW, for a year beginning 9/70, I flew most of my combat missions ...

In Cambodia and Laos (most in Laos). Many times the frag (our term for a mission dispatch) would be done with a wink-and-a-nod. "The enemy is known to be staging in the A Shau Valley near Ta Bat. You will be fragged to co-ordinates so-and-so (usually Tchepone, Laos and vicinity). At some time prior to about 2/71 I flew a mission over Phenom Phen, Cambodia. Of course Kerry was in the 'Nam before me and before the publicized Nixon invasion of Cambodia. That must make him a liar? Bullshit! I knew helicopter pilots who were flying into Cambodia in 1968. I have seen aircraft loss reports from shoot-downs in Cambodia in the late '60s. The boats where there too.

[Timbuk3]

9. Oops.

I missed this post.

We were going into Cambodia before 1968?

So it wasn't President Nixon that Kerry was talking about when he said "the President"?

That would make sense.

Thanks. That's extremely helpful.

[democrat_patriot]

36. I believe our 'advisors' were in Cambodia

well before 68 even. I would have to check that out and get some sources for you.

It was ILLEGAL to be in Cambodia. It was vehemently DENIED by Nixon and the CIA. Don't know how to prove he was there. But, you CANNOT prove he wasn't there either I suspect.

What was Air America? Flights into Cambodia by 'private' companies (CIA backed).

[democrat_patriot]

37. A link to Cambodia info

http://www.vva.org/about_the_war.htm#The%20Plight%20of%20Cambodia

Didn't get a chance to look too closely at it. But we were secretly bombing in 1969, so we certainly could be patrolling the rivers in 1968.

It was common knowledge the North Vietnamese used trails in Cambodia - because they were neutral and we wouldn't bomb them - so you can draw the conclusion that we sent in troops to disrupt their movements there.

[Timbuk3]

8. Is this true?

Nixon had been elected President in Nov 68---but did not take office until Jan 69?

(This is the argument I'm getting ready to shoot down, in it's entirety.)

Kerry's lies are being uncovered at an alarming rate, and even the Libby press is now being forced to print them. You can't believe that in so huge a Nation as ours, Kerry is the best your Libby Reps can come up with. Did decorated Vietnam War veteran John F. Kerry see military action in Cambodia? He says nothing about it on the campaign trail, but he stated it as fact on the floor of the U.S. Senate on March 27, 1986. In that speech, Kerry accused President Ronald Reagan of leading the United States into another Vietnam in Central America, accusing the administration of Nixon-like duplicity and saying that he should recognize it because of his Vietnam experience.

Kerry told his colleagues he was on Navy duty in Cambodia at a time when President Richard M. Nixon lied to the public and said that there were no U.S. forces in that country. He even took enemy fire. In his words, "I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared - seared - in me."

Very interesting! No one had posted on those articles before. The one about Kerry being in Cambodia sounds like a convenient memory; it might be revealing to check that story in Brinkley's book.

It quickly became obvious that at least one detail was wrong.

A problem with his statement--Nixon had been elected President in Nov 68---but did not take office until Jan 69----another faux pas in his war stories.

(He also admits to being a FReeper.)

[DemoTex]

11. See my post

We were in Cambodia before Nixon. Believe me. We were busted with Nixon's ground force invasion.

BTW Timbuk3, who exactly is your dog in this fight?

[Timbuk3]

19. My dog

>>BTW Timbuk3, who exactly is your dog in this fight?

I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for, but I'm voting for Kerry and I'd hate to see this FReeper smear succeed.

I post on a couple of Yahoo! boards fairly regularly, because I like to make life miserable for the neorubes. I just wanted to go back with some ammunition.

Petty of me, I know. But it's fun.

And I can hear the forehead veins popping in FReeperville from here. ;->

[DemoTex]

20. OK, thanks. Your post was a bit unclear ....

Wasn't able to determine your line from the Freep Friend line. Fuzzy antecedents, as they were. Sorry, sir ... for now. Don't disappoint me, please. Stick in if you are a true believer. We are very, very hard-core Democrat here.

[Timbuk3]

21. You're welcome

And thanks to you, as well.

I've lurked this board (and posted occasionally) for quite a while, now. I knew what I was doing when I came to you guys for help.

BTW, a friend and I are thinking of having a party, and I thought I'd share the idea.

The final night of the RNC we thought we'd have a few friends over to watch (and jeer.) We'll furnish the beer and pizza, and collect donations for moveon.

I'm trying to find some "nerf bricks" to throw at the television, too. Anyone know where to get something like that?

PS - Take a look at my site. You'll see that I'm not a FReeper.

[jbm]

22. Great site!

I can never resist clicking on a link! You've got lots of great info there. Thanks for posting it.

[Timbuk3]

23. Thanks

This is my favorite animation. I did it myself, but a few DUers helped me out (because I'm still a rookie with flash.)

http://www.timbuk3.com/commercial.html

Actually, I managed to save quite a bit of good stuff for the animations page http://www.timbuk3.com/animations.htm

Here's my favorite picture of Commander Codpiece:

And some of the posters are pretty fun, too. http://www.timbuk3.com/A%20mosaic%20of%20soldiers%20who%20have%20died%20in%20Iraq.pdf and http://www.timbuk3.com/posters.htm

BTW, I have DU linked: http://www.timbuk3.com/blinks.htm

And a great answer for the cons who say us "libbies" hate our servicemen: http://www.timbuk3.com/slinks.htm

(All of this stuff can be reached from the menu on the left of the main site.)

Forgive me for the "advertisement", but I don't make a penny on the site. It costs me 8 bucks a month.

[1monster]

25. Go to your local craft store or the craft section of a department store.

Buy some thick upholstery foam and cut it into bricks... Faililng that, get some blocks of craft styrofoam or the flower arrangement foam bricks in the silk flower section...

[banana republican]

26. Sounds like time to resurrect the DU Drinking Game for the RNC Convention

[0007]

28. Fantastic!!

[BrotherBuzz]

39. I'd pass on those sissy 'nerf bricks'

Run down to Tap Plastic and spend some big bucks on a big-ass sheet of Lexan plastic to prop in front of your TV screen, then use real bricks (alley apples, as the're affectionately called in the Big Apple). Guaranteed, you'll feel better.;)

[Chango]

14. Thusly

1. Kerry was in Cambodia.

2. Nixon later said there were never any U.S. forces in Cambodia before the invasion.

3. Kerry later combined the two facts in one statement that was accurate when he said it.

The Boston Globe reported in April that an official record just released verified that Kerry was near Cambodia during the Christmas truce, and was engaged in combat operations like he described.

[DemoTex]

17. And another thing ...

Do you think there were signs on the river: Entering Cambodia, Last Chance for "33" (Vietnamese beer)? Do you think the Swift Boats had the highly sophisticated navigation gear (INS at the time) that it would take to determine, with any degree of certainty, a border penetration? Do you think my seat-of-the-pants helicopter friends had that? Can you determine a border in triple-canopy jungle from the air or on a river? Questions to ponder. There were many unknown and inadvertent excursions of our boats and aircraft into Cambodia. But there were many missions sent into Cambodia, Laos, and the TBA (tri-border-area between them) well before Nixon grabbed power. He just refined it to genocide with the B-52s. Don't ever forget that.

[girl gone mad]

15. No, no, no..

Kerry didn't say that.

Kerry was adressing President Nixon when he made the statement: "Mr. President, I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia."

He was referring to President Johnson.

[tishaLA]

18. Tell your friend to believe anything s/he wants

Nobody gives a fuck and nobody listens to bilge being spewed by O'Neill and his FReeper asshole cohort who calls Muslims "ragheads."

[Lithos]

24. The US was involved in both Cambodia and Laos

Beginning in the mid 60's. Nixon escalated what were primarily quick sorties and LRRP's into full scale bombing operations in '69 followed by a full scale invasion in 1970.

Chomskey lists attacks by US backed forces as early as 1957, but I'm not sure of his sources there.

http://www.chomsky.info/letters/19780626.htm

[hedgehog]

29. Going into Cambodia was part of a long tradition

since my dad tells stories of shelling Vietnam and sailing up rivers in China back during the Korean War. I've never seen a written reference, but the stories make a lot of sense given the nature of the Cold War.

[Lithos]

32. Yep

There was a lot more going on than met the eye on both sides.

L-

[bluedog]

10. heres a read

Kerry did not say Nixon was President on Christmas Eve 1968. Kerry said Nixon claimed there were no US troops in Cambodia for the first year after he took office, and all the while Kerry knew there were troops in the country by Christmas 1968 at least. Other records of the Cambodia prove that Kerry was correct, and prove that there were operations inside the Cambodia even earlier than Christmas Eve 1968.

Nixon was elected in November of 1968 and was sworn to uphold the office of the Presidency in January 1969. Christmas of 1968 found many of our heroic troops perforating the border of Cambodia, yet Nixon continually denied that our troops were in Cambodia until April, 1970, when he “officially” announced to a national television audience that US troops were invading Cambodia (1) even though Green Berets and the Navy had been involved in Cambodia operations for at least two years. (2).

(1) North Vietnamese had been using Cambodia as a springboard for funneling troops and arms, and on April 29, 1970, Nixon suddenly ordered U.S. troops to invade Cambodia to stop this.
http://www.virtualology.com/virtualmuseumofhistory/hallofusa/usvicepresidents/RI CHARDNIXON.ORG


(2) Other Americans besides the Green Berets were involved in plots and operations inside Cambodia in the late 1960s. Samuel R. Thornton, a Navy yeoman assigned in May 1968 as an intelligence specialist to the United States Navy command in Saigon, vividly recalls that major planning to overthrow and assassinate Sihanouk was initiated late in 1968 by a Lon Nol representative who was then a high official in the Sihanouk government.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Kissinger/Cambodia_Coup_TPOP.html

[Timbuk3]

12. Excellent!

I don't care if the mod moves this thread or not, now. Hell, I hope he kills it or otherwise hides it from the lurking FReepers. (No point in letting them know they're beaten yet again, is there? ;-> )

Thanks to all.

[girl gone mad]

13. Try this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x602285

[Timbuk3]

16. I read your post in that thread.

GREAT work!

BTW, I also read the last post in that thread.

"This horse is dead already."

I hope hippiegranny's right.

But veins are popping in FReeperville, this week. You know they'll keep trying.

At any rate, thanks again to all of you for your help. I'm now lying in ambush (pun intended) on another message board, locked and loaded.

[Timbuk3]

27. Parting shot

Clinton on John Stewart tonight.

Taking on the GOP smear machine.

Wake up, America.

[starroute]

30. This might be relevant

December - 1968

U.S. naval forces pushed up the Vam Co Dong and Vam Co Tay Rivers west of Saigon, against heavy enemy opposition, to cut infiltration routes from the "Parrot's Beak" area of Cambodia. The Giant Slingshot operation, so named for the configuration of the two rivers, severely hampered Communist resupply in the region near the capital and in the Plain of Reeds.

http://members.optushome.com.au/glaust/68.htm

Those two rivers names flow on either side of the "parrot's beak" -- which is a bit of Cambodia which comes very close to Saigon -- and their headwaters are actually in Cambodia. I can't find a really good map online -- but there's one at http://www.indochinatour.com/vietnam/map/map.html that does show both rivers. They're the thin blue lines that come out of the graphic representing Ho Chi Minh City, and the lower one in particular soon crosses the Cambodian border.

If Kerry was part of that operation, I could well believe he might have gotten across the border as part of it.


On edit: Yes, Giant Slingshot does seem to be the relevant operation. I've been reading a little about it online, and it would have been the likeliest thing in the world for some of the boats involved to have gotten further upriver than where the border technically lay.

[drdtroit]

31. Of course they would say Kerry was never there,

his CO's that is (and especially the enlisted men), because we were not at war with Cambodia.

What a bunch of BS!

[wellst0nev0ter]

33. Just One Of Two Latest Smears

I was bored enough to watch O'Reilly last night, and they had this one Swift Boat Veteran who *claimed* he actually served under Kerry, and along with the Cambodia bullshit he also said Kerry deliberately hid how his unit killed innocent Vietnamese civilians, focusing on one particular little boy, and how Kerry inflated the number of people they killed.

O'Reilly, to his credit, pointed out that the practice of inflating numbers and hiding certain atrocities were routine at that time (and was pretty much what Kerry was protesting after his service) but otherwise, no O'Reilly treatment for that lying vet.

[noonwitch]

35. A nam vet I know told me that they never knew where they were

He was an army vet. He said that the command would drop their whole platoon off by helicopter in the middle of the jungle and they wouldn't have good maps or anything to know where. He said they trained them for this by doing the same thing in South America before sending them to Vietnam, so they'd learn how to make their way through jungle terrain.

These "Swift Boats for Truth" idiots are people who for some reason have personal grudges against Kerry, probably because he came back as an opponent to the war.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

38. I can only say

that my job while in the service (68-72) was as a payroll clerk. I was stationed at a discharge center when they started bringing guys home. We would process them out of the service. I met several guys, some only removed from southeast Asia a week or so, who had Cambodia stories. They had no reason to lie to me. So I believe Mr.Kerry......