Carter: Observers Agree with Chavez Recall Results

[Nambe]

CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters)

Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter said on Monday international observers agreed that leftist President Hugo Chavez won an Aug. 15 recall referendum fairly despite opposition concerns over fraud in the vote. ..
Ride Don’t Drive * * It’s Global Cool

[arcane1]

1. viva Chavez!!!

:bounce:

:party:

:toast:

[Fridays Child]

11. I second that and might I add...

Go, Hugo, go!

[Caution]

2. counting down to when all those who dissed Carter

over the Chavez recall effort apologize for accusing him of being anti-democratic...

I expect to be here a long assed time.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

6. I never dissed him - he was trying to be fair. I dissed Kerry tho

for his opposition to Hugo and going along with the Opposition's rhetoric

[Feanorcurufinwe]

10. You mischaracterized Kerry's statement in the first place,

and you've repeated your error here.


Kerry never expressed: 'opposition to Hugo'

That is a false statement.


I don't even know what 'going along with the Opposition's rhetoric' is supposed to mean.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

15. I don't see the error

"With the future of the democratic process at a critical juncture in Venezuela, we should work to bring all possible international pressure to bear on President Chavez to allow the referendum to proceed. The Administration should demonstrate its true commitment to democracy in Latin America by showing determined leadership now, while a peaceful resolution can still be achieved.

Throughout his time in office, President Chavez has repeatedly undermined democratic institutions by using extra-legal means, including politically motivated incarcerations, to consolidate power.  In fact, his close relationship with Fidel Castro has raised serious questions about his commitment to leading a truly democratic government.

Moreover, President Chavez’s policies have been detrimental to our interests and those of his neighbors.  He has compromised efforts to eradicate drug cultivation by allowing Venezuela to become a haven for narco-terrorists, and sowed instability in the region by supporting anti-government insurgents in Colombia.

The referendum has given the people of Venezuela the opportunity to express their views on his presidency through constitutionally legitimate means.  The international community cannot allow President Chavez to subvert this process, as he has attempted to do thus far.  He must be pressured to comply with the agreements he made with the OAS and the Carter Center to allow the referendum to proceed, respect the exercise of free expression, and release political prisoners.

Too often in the past, this Administration has sent mixed signals by supporting undemocratic processes in our own hemisphere -- including in Venezuela, where they acquiesced to a failed coup attempt against President Chavez.  Having just allowed the democratically elected leader to be cast aside in Haiti, they should make a strong statement now by leading the effort to preserve the fragile democracy in Venezuela."
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0319d.html

I will concede that 'going along with the Opposition's rhetoric' may be too strong a wording much of what he has said here is the same bullshit the Opposition has been saying all along and has been proven false.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

18. As can be seen by any neutral reader,

Kerry criticizes some of Chavez's past actions, expresses support for the referendum process, and slams the Bush administration. I don't see him declaring any 'opposition to Chavez', as you stated.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

23. agreed - he does support the referendum process - thats true and

admirable. He does, however say "Throughout his time in office, President Chavez has repeatedly undermined democratic institutions by using extra-legal means, including politically motivated incarcerations, to consolidate power.  In fact, his close relationship with Fidel Castro has raised serious questions about his commitment to leading a truly democratic government.

Moreover, President Chavez’s policies have been detrimental to our interests and those of his neighbors.  He has compromised efforts to eradicate drug cultivation by allowing Venezuela to become a haven for narco-terrorists, and sowed instability in the region by supporting anti-government insurgents in Colombia." - this seems like it was put in to appease anti-chavez people in the US. It doesn't seem like an endorsement to me.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

30. There is a big difference between 'not endorsing', and 'opposing'

If you remember the context of Kerry's statement, it was during the period that Chavez was in fact fighting the referendum process.


As I said, Kerry criticizes some of Chavez's past actions. You say it 'seems' to you 'like it was put in to appease anti-chavez people in the US' .


That is the kind of non-fact-based smear that really infuriates me.


I could make the same kind of comment about anything you say, for example:

"It seems to me your comment about Kerry was put in to <insert anything I want, regardless of whether it has any basis in fact>"



I wouldn't mind, in contrast, if you were to make the following type of criticism:

He has compromised efforts to eradicate drug cultivation by allowing Venezuela to become a haven for narco-terrorists

That isn't true. Kerry must be referring to the following reports: (references), but those have been discredited: (references) (discussion)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

33. Well - Its not a smear its conjecture

I'd be smearing him if I had some dubious source referenced or spoke of some un named source. i just said "it seems" as in "it seems to me" - my conjecture based on what I've read.

I will concede that Kerry's statement was made during the early referendum before Chavez decided to do the right thing - and guess what - he did the right thing. And he won in a landslide.

Listen - I support John Kerry verbally and financially. This is just one of my few criticisms, yet it is one I hold fast to. I fear (based on my own conjecture, again) that his presidency won't offer a real difference in policy towards Venezuela or any other South or Central American country.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

36. Semantics. It is a criticism unsupported by facts.

smear
3 : a usually unsubstantiated charge or accusation against a person or organization
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=smear

I think it is valid to criticize by saying the facts that were laid out were incorrect -- and why. But to ascribe an evil motivation to someone without factual basis is not a valid argument.


Personally, I'm overjoyed that we are discussing this without getting mad at each other.

[JohnKleeb]

38. I'd say misunderstanding is a better word

I am gonna post Kerry's statement when I find it on the results. Now what you see at the top of GD2004 thats a smear, hit and run nonsense, more of the same ole. I would call what we're seeing here, a misunderstanding. We can judge Kerry when he gets his statement out on this.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

39. How would I ever be ever to prove his motives for anything?

It can only be conjecture.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

40. That's my point, attacking anyone for what you imagine are their motives

rather than attacking them on the facts of what they said or did, is a smear.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

41. Ok so we'll use your definition - I smear him

I still think that's what he did

[JohnKleeb]

34. statement was dated March 19

I admit I am ignorant on whats been going on, foreign policy issues arent my cup of tea and I pay more attention ot european conflict like what goes on in Northern Ireland, Bush has totally ignored that.

[aneerkoinos]

42. Let's get this right.

"If you remember the context of Kerry's statement, it was during the period that Chavez was in fact fighting the referendum process."

This is obviously not true. Chavez has never opposed the referendum process, if you claim to know otherwise, please prove it. Í say that Chavez geniously fooled the coupster into demanding recall, which Chavez knew that he was certain to win.

Supporting the rule of law and legal order of the recall process according to Venezuelan Constitution is not fighting against the recall process, it's the opposite. Despite the opposition fraud attempts, Venezuelan officials and Chavez accepted something e.g. my country would have never allowed, and made every attempt to HELP the opposition to collect the required signatures. ALL Chavez has against US imperialism is democracy and rule of law, but they are mighty weapons. It is sad and worrying that OAS and Carter made some questionable remarks at the time, which were clearly against the Venezuelan law, and that has been feeding some suspicions against Carter even until now.

[Larkspur]

47. The referendum process was initiated by the oligarchs

If you remember the context of Kerry's statement, it was during the period that Chavez was in fact fighting the referendum process.


And the oligarchs are the ones fighting democracy. They used the referendum in the Venezuelan Constitution as a LAST resort to oust Chavez. They first used a military coup, assassination attempt, and a oil labor strike before using this tool that Chavez himself supported.

What Chavez was fighting was the oligarchs method of getting signatures on a referendum. He was fighting fraud from the oligarchs. Kerry never recognized that the oligarchs were trying to make a mockery of Venezuelan democracy. In fact the oligarchs were promoting right-wing totalitarianism if they won the referendum and Kerry ignored that.

Kerry is an elitist, so I'm not surprised he identifies with the oligarchs and his statement on his website smacks of this bond between elitists.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

50. Chavez never 'fought' the referendum process!

In fact he was the one that insisted that it be carried out to the letter of the law!

As for your attempt to define the rules of the debate, that is a LAME attempt to distract from the fact that Kerry is justb as much against democracy in Venezuela as Bush is.

The only thing either of them care about is "American Interests".

[scarletwoman]

52. Not true: "during the period that Chavez was in fact fighting..."

You write: "If you remember the context of Kerry's statement, it was during the period that Chavez was in fact fighting the referendum process."

When this bit about Venezuela from the Kerry website was first given attention, the referendum had already occurred and the recount/name-verification was proceeding in an orderly fashion, overseen by Carter et al. If Kerry's position statement was made months earlier, then, at the very least, it is slipshod work to keep such an outdated piece up at the website.

Either they're not paying attention to the events in Venezuela as they have been unfolding for the past several months, or they are deliberately taking a pro-opposition stand on this issue. I am cheered by neither.

sw

[Feanorcurufinwe]

54. How can anyone be so blatantly and obviously wrong?

When this bit about Venezuela from the Kerry website was first given attention, the referendum had already occurred

The statement was issued in March. The referendum just took place this past weekend.

Are you from Earth?

[aneerkoinos]

26. Kerry don't critizice Chavez.

He lies about Chavez. That's a big difference, and those lies have been shown what they are numerous times. If you think there a single true statement in Kerry's speach that you agree with, tell us what it is and le't take a look at it.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

28. in Feanorcurufinwe's defense he did say he supported a legal referendum

but so did Chavez

[Devils Advocate NZ]

49. Hmmmm... How about this:

"Moreover, President Chavez’s policies have been detrimental to our interests and those of his neighbors."

That is not opposition to Chavez?

If that is not opposition to Chavez, then what Kerry says about the Iraq war is not opposition to the Iraq war.

[HuckleB]

19. Yeah, I found Kerry's statement bizarre.

And I fully admit to offering criticism of Chavez, including in regard to some of how he handled the recall early on. Still, Kerry's statement seemed to go beyond criticism with a basis and into mere hyperbole.

I'm just glad that Carter and company were there. I hope they're truthsaying will quell the doubts the opposition is trying to foment by pursuing the Bushian creed of lie and then lie some more.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

51. How did you find out about how Chavez "handled the recall"?

It wouldn't be through the sdame media that has LIED ABOUT EVERYTHING???

This is the thing I find MOST ANNOYING about DU - people who one minute scream at the "media whores" for lying about Kerry, then moments later swallow everything they say about some other subject like it was an undeniable fact!

[HuckleB]

53. I have consistently looked at a variety of sources,

including pro-Chavez. I'm not going to rehash it all again, and I'm not going to pretend that Chavez is beyond criticism, as some around DU choose to do.

[seventhson]

20. Frankly - I think I'd rather see Chavez as the Dem Nominee than Kerry

Kerry is a dolt on this issue

[Pastiche423]

43. I'd rather see that too!

I'd vote for him.

VIVA CHAVEZ!

[Larkspur]

48. Me Too!!!

:party:

Viva Chavez!!!

[Judi Lynn]

24. No doubt you may have seen a response by a Venezuelan citizen

to his remarks concerning Chavez:

March 24, 2004

An Open Letter to John Kerry
You Are Wrong on Venezuela, Senator
By EVA GOLINGER


........You also mention in your March 19th Statement that President Chavez has "repeatedly undermined democratic institutions using extra-legal means, including politically motivated incarcerations, to consolidate power". Honestly, Mr. Kerry, are you speaking of the same President Chavez who has been democratically governing Venezuela since 1998, has implemented one of the most progressive constitutions in the world in the area of human rights, has developed successful social programs that are benefiting millions of Venezuelans in the areas of health care, education, housing and jobs, and has brought more Venezuelans into the political process than any government in the nation's history? The same President Chavez who survived a coup d'etat in April 2002 by an opposition movement that violently ousted him from his democratically elected post and then proceeded to dissolve all of Venezuela's most treasured institutions, such as the Supreme Court, the National Assembly, the Constitution, the Public Defender and the Attorney General?

Prior to President Chavez' administration, there were hosts of political prisoners in Venezuela. Yet since Chavez has been in office, there have been no political prisoners. This is a fact documented by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, and even the US State Department's Country Report on Venezuela. And more power is in the hands of the Venezuelan people than ever before. Finally, under Chavez' governance, more Venezuelans actually have a say in their government and feel a part of their country's progress, development and political process.

I would also ask you, Mr. Kerry, to verify just what exactly you mean by "Chavez's policies have been detrimental to our interests" Such a statement is not supported by fact. Under Chavez, the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) has been revitalized and the oil industry has surged in production and growth. This has benefited US investors, companies and refineries substantially. Venezuela has paid off a substantial portion of its foreign debt and its own domestic industries are growing. Chavez has supported legislation in the area of indigenous rights and anti-discrimination laws, and has implemented education and social welfare policies that are far more advanced than those of the United States. If anything, Venezuela has become a world leader in socially humane governance.
(snip/...)

http://www.counterpunch.org/golinger03242004.html

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

27. I saw it when you posted it back in March

indeed

[JohnKleeb]

29. here's his statement on the referendum from a few days back

"Sunday's recall vote in Venezuela is the first step towards national reconciliation, and the international community will be watching closely. The people of Venezuela deserve a transparent and violence-free process in which they can freely express their opinion. The government must conduct an open and transparent referendum that permits political parties and local and international observers to witness the entire process. Similarly, the opposition has a responsibility to help ensure the process is open and unfettered.

"This vote alone will not resolve the underlying conflicts in Venezuela. No matter what the outcome, it is vitally important for Venezuelans to recognize the rights and the grievances of their opponents, to agree on strong democratic institutions, and to begin the long process of healing to build a better future for all Venezuelans."

[Feanorcurufinwe]

31. Kerry's statement proves he is against the people

:eyes:

[JohnKleeb]

32. hah just doing standard ops research

I for one would rather him have a position on it than none at all. :shrug: gotta wonder what they think of his Northern Ireland views, I like them, only a couple of candiates had the nads to talk about it in the primaries, its been a hot spot, and its like my pet international issue.

[leftistagitator]

46. Well, most of that is true...

Chavez is a friend of Castro, he does oppose Plan Columbia, and he did incarcerate some of his opponents. He was right to do these things of course, as Plan Columbia is just extending our drug war into somebody else's civil war which made both bloodier and those opponents of Chavez's are traitors who attempted an insurrection against the government. As for his friend Fidel, Chavez can go clubbing with Mao and Stalin, but as long as he has honest elections and rules his country with a mandate he's no dictator. Kerry is probably just trying to not look pro-"Communist", (I know Chavez is no communist, but Americans seem to have trouble understanding the distinction). But he has fully supported the referendum process, and I think we won't have any CIA ops in Venezuala with Kerry in charge. Kerry has affirmed this with the following message

"Stay Neutral in Free Elections: When the United States picks favorite candidates, we weaken the integrity of those political processes - and as often as not, our support can cause a backlash within a populace hypersensitive to meddling by the United States, as it did in Bolivia. -- Support Democratically Elected Leaders: Governments that uphold democratic principles deserve our support We should not countenance mob rule nor military force or inaction to oust an elected president, even an imperfect one such as Aristide in Haiti or Chavez in Venezuela. Instead, we should exercise our considerable diplomatic and moral force in support of democratically elected leaders."

Al Giordano has taken a strong pro-Kerry stance; I don't think Kerry is as bad as you're making him out to be. Even Chavez himself has expressed hope that a Kerry administration could be a new starting point for relations between the US and Venezuala. I say give him a chance before you write him off as being as undemocratic as Bush* is.

http://www.bigleftoutside.com/archives/000425.php

[Judi Lynn]

55. Did you not read the open letter to John Kerry written by a Venezuelan?

From that letter:

Prior to President Chavez' administration, there were hosts of political prisoners in Venezuela. Yet since Chavez has been in office, there have been no political prisoners. This is a fact documented by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, and even the US State Department's Country Report on Venezuela. And more power is in the hands of the Venezuelan people than ever before. Finally, under Chavez' governance, more Venezuelans actually have a say in their government and feel a part of their country's progress, development and political process.
(snip)

http://www.counterpunch.org/golinger03242004.html

What authorities do you have more credible than this citizen, and Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, and the U.S. State Department's Country Report on Venezuela?

[leftistagitator]

56. So you're saying he put none of the coup plotters in jail?

That would be absolutely insane, it can't be true. Maybe he's not classifying them as political prisoners, they probably shouldn't be classified as such, but that's who I assumed were being talked about as far as arresting "political opponents". What did he do with them? You can't just let people who take up arms against the goverment go, can you?

[aneerkoinos]

57. He couldn't even if he would have

IIRC the VZ Supreme court, which was totally in the hands of the old guard until quite recently, pardoned the coupsters - or most of them (many got away and ended enjoying refuge in Florida). More details would be wellcome, if somebody has them. But basically yes, you can "just let the people who take up arms against the government go"... :D

[Union Thug]

14. I'm with you!

Let democracy work. In this case, in worked in favor of the working people! The rich can't seem to deal with democracy, can they?

[JohnKleeb]

22. dissing of Carter? jesus christ

Then again I see dissing of FDR so :shrug:

[hadrons]

3. boy, Jimmy must be exhasted ....

from changing all those ballots from yes to no - moran Freeper "logic"

[cal04]

4. Good for Carter

(I'd love to know how the Independent got their story and from whom
That was illegal.)

Carter
"Our findings coincided with the partial returns announced today by the National Elections Council," Carter told a news conference.

The announcement appeared to deflate opposition claims of widespread fraud in the voting. The National Elections Council earlier announced its tally with 94 percent of the vote counted, showing Chavez surviving by a wide margin the opposition's effort to unseat him.

[geek tragedy]

5. I'm still not his biggest fan, but I support his right to rule on behalf

of the Venezuelan people. Time for the opposition to STFU.

Does anyone think that Bush will have a constructive comment about this? (That's a joke, btw)

[NeoConsSuck]

7. This is great...

and I'm sure the white house howler monkey will give Chavez a congratulatory phone call </sarcasm>

[allemand]

8. Carter Endorses Chavez Win in Venezuela

Carter:

"Our findings coincided with the partial returns announced today by the National Elections Council," Carter told a news conference.

<...>

OAS Secretary-General Cesar Gaviria, speaking at a press conference with Carter, said observers "have not found any element of fraud in the process."

<...>

Directing his remarks at opposition figures, Carter called on all Venezuelans to accept the results. "Now it's the responsibility of all Venezuelans to accept the results and work together for the future," said Carter.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/9415710.htm

[DoveTurnedHawk]

9. Viva Chavez! Viva Carter!

ALL RIGHT!

:bounce:

DTH

[gratuitous]

12. Okay, they've tried . . .

They've tried the bloodless coup and the California scenario. What's next for trying to thwart the will of the people in a sovereign nation?

"Ohhhh, I want that Venezuelan oil so much. There's just one thing standing in the way: The rightful owners. Perhaps a legal precedent? The very thing! Let's see, 'oil,' 'oil,' 'oil.' Here it is! 'Oil: see "snatch".'"

[Fridays Child]

13. See also "Doctrine of Pre-emption."

Is it time to liberate Venezuala, yet?

[burrowowl]

17. The U$ belongs to

the Oganization of American States and as signers none of the Nations of the Americas is to attack another Nation of the Treaty. However, Bu$h seems to like to break treaties.
Viva Chavez!
And may the U$ quit trying for a coup d'etat in Venezuela!

[truthspeaker]

16. I got it. Let's work up a #6 on 'em!

[Rose Siding]

37. Tales of babies, incubators and WMD?

:scared:

[HuckleB]

21. Thank you, Jimmy and friends. Congrats to Chavez and Venezuela!

[struggle4progress]

25. Venezuela's Opposition Resorts to Phony Exit Polls

Monday 16th August 2004
by Jonah Gindin

<snip>
"How many 'No' votes have you received?" I asked, playing the naïve reporter.

"Let's see," she offered, tapping her tennis shoes, "there are no 'Nos' on this page, and one on this page. I have one 'No'."

"Just one?" I persisted.

"Well, I don't know about the others, but I have just one," she answered, then, spotting some emerging voters in the distance, she scampered off to collect more "Yeses."
<snip>

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1248
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=2753

[tom_paine]

35. Looks like the Opposition has been schooled by Uncle Karl's Boys

They pioneered the use of Phony Exit Polls.

[struggle4progress]

44. There's no question the Bushista thugs have been throwing $$$ there. eom

[klook]

45. Great news

Congratulations to Hugo Chavez and the hard-working people of Venezuela!