Breaking on CNN...Iraqi police control mosque

[dixielib]

no link yet.
link http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/08/20/iraq.main/index.html

[Cush]

1. the militia isn't there?

[PsychoDad]

7. last I heard/read

Sadir issued a command to the milita to evacuate the Iman Ali Mosque raither than allow it to be distroyed by the americans.

[Surface Map]

24. Goodbye and good riddance

To Sadr and his militia. I'm excited the Iraqi gov't stood up and ran these thugs. It is a good sign for the country to have leadership that will fight these type terrorist threats. The next one may think a little harder before he starts creating problems.

[The Magistrate]

31. Honestly, Sir....

"...the Iraqi government stood up and ran these thugs..."?

"...maybe the next one will think a little harder before he starts creating problems..."?

The puppet government we have erected in Iraq is nothing but a fig-leaf for U.S. occupation of the place, and will remain so as long as the U.S. in actually in occupation of the place. It does nothing, and can do nothing, without the assent of the U.S., and its forces are incapable of any sustained action without the support of the U.S. military.

Mr. al'Sadr is a wretched reactionary obscurantist; he is also representative of a very large proportion of the Shia populace of Iraq. His power has not been diminished by these events, but rather enhanced, and any "thinking a little harder" engaged in by persons tempted to follow his example will run along the lines of how best to imitate him, spiced with a few self-administered kicks for not having thought of it first....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[al bupp]

46. Precisely, Sir

Even more to the point, Sadr and other Shiites, such as Sistani on the former ruling council, where some of the only forces which sought to thwart Bremmer's attempts to legalize and legitimate CPA policy of simple expropriation of Iraq's industry in favor of mostly US capital interests.

Read the latest issue of Harpers for an excellent piece on the largely overlooked (at least by media here in the US) economic implications and policies in post invasion Iraq.

In a nutshell it makes the case that problems in Iraq following the fall of Saddam were not the result of a simple lack of post war plans, as claimed by some, but rather due to Neo-Conservative ideologues in the administration managing to implement a "Zero Year" economic approach. This essentially sought to create optimal conditions for business via dogged adherence to Milton Friedman type economic precepts, including completely unregulated, untaxed imports, complete reliance on private companies for service restoration, and most damaging to Iraqis, closing down and/or defunding of state-run business, laying off or idling hundreds of thousands of workers, many of which likely ended up joining the resistence as a last resort.

The irony here, no doubt lost on the Adminstration, is that their fundamentalist approach (in the conservative economic sense) to Iraq has been stymied by other fundamentalists of a different stripe.

[The Magistrate]

48. Ms. Klein's Article In Harper's, Sir, Is An Excellent One!

It is spot-on accurate.

One of the interesting features of this current situation is the absence of A. al'Sistani from Iraq during it. There is some question in my mind whether he will ever return to Iraq....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[al bupp]

51. Should have guessed that you'd read it, sir!

The al'Sistani angle does make one wonder. Could he have gotten an unrefusable offer of a hospital stay in England? Perhaps he just saw the writing on the wall w/ the appointment of Allawi... in any event his departure both left the field open for Moqtadr, who apparently feels he has little to loose and much to gain by playing David to our Goliath, and gave the puppet Iraqi regime the political space it needed to play tough in response.

I think the most interesting aspect of Ms. Klein's article is the way it explains the Shiite part of the rebellion in follow-the-money terms. Because the Shiite leadership expects that if true elections are ever held, they as representatives of the majority of Iraqis, will be the eventual government. Therefore they have a vested interest in not seeing the state's assets sold off to the highest bidders in the meantime. So, the Administration's "religious" approach to the occupation made enemies of people, who as great victims of Saddam should have been natural allies.

There's a word for this, it's called incompetence.

[Surface Map]

49. at the risk

of pissing most everyone here off I wrote this earlier but still feel strongly that it is correct.

I am new here and I have had my eyes opened to something that disturbs me and maybe I'm wrong so let me know. Let me claify before some of you go off on me but I am NOT VOTING FOR BUSH.

I had no idea that so much negative bashing of the Iraq war was going on. I haven't seen it be so bad in the national news. Call me ignorant or whatever but I support the Iraq war and feel it was the right thing to do. I don't see this as a republican position and it won't get me to vote for Bush.

What concerns me is this. We are not going to change the minds of the Bushies no matter how much we blast the war. But I do believe that if we keep pounding on this issue and coming across as borderline anti Americans by siding with Sadr and the like that we will push many moderates and undecided over to the Bush side.

We should focus on the lack of International support for the war and the economy. Things we can offer better and positive ideas on instead of the negative anti war rhetoric.

Just my opinion and I look foward to hearing what you think. Don't hate me for this position

[al bupp]

52. First Off, Welcome to DU

I for one think that this forum's a pretty useless exercise if all we ever do is simply agree w/ each other. Of course, I'm pretty new around here myself! I certainly don't hate you for your position.

Your point is well taken w/ regards to appearing to side w/ the enemy. It's definitely a fine line this business of trying point out the errors of one's leaders or military during a time of war.

I would hope that you (and others) might be open to arguments for why the war was a bad idea, and that the reasons for it were misstated and the real agenda not shared w/ the general public.

Whether one agrees w/ the rational for war in the first place, I think it's appropriate to question the subsequent conduct in terms of strategy & tactics, especially since this has much to do w/ the chances for getting the international support you mention.

[Surface Map]

54. We are on the same page.

Thanks and I do agree that the war has major problems and I understand and agree with some of the negativity but I still feel it was the right thing to do under the circumstanses.

I just feel we need to go on the offensive on things we can shape minds with. Again the International support and the economy.

I also feel that Kerry needs to raise hell with the swift boat vets(SBV) and he needs to file a lawsuit. If he doesn't it makesit appear to the less informed that the SBV are telling the truth.

[Sterling]

53. Welcome

If you really are not a Bushbot then you will probably learn to enjoy DU a lot. The best part is you learn a lot here. You even get to teach sometimes too. I have a feeling your time here will change your opinions on the war as well as a host of other issues.

Just be honest and have an open mind. Links are always good to help establish a common set of facts to debate on.

[Surface Map]

56. Thanks and I look foward to it.

I wish I would have found DU earlier. How long has it been here?

[The Magistrate]

59. You Are Certainly Free, Mr. Map, To Hold Your Own View

My own views of the war in Afghanistan, for instance, are wholly supportive, and involved me in some harsh controversies. There are several reasonable grounds on which to have supported an invasion of Iraq; a favorite columnist of mine, Mr. Oliphant, subscribed to many of them. These are, chiefly, the proposition that U.N. directives made under provisions calling for force to compell obedience ought to have been enforced long since, and the general proposition that no government has the right to tyrannize over its citizenry in the manner of Hussein and his Ba'athists, and that any such government ought to fear the wrath of the civilize world, and that by virtue of examples made.

None of these reasons, of course, were those given by the administration, nor did they form any part of its motivation. The reasons given were a farrago of lies concerning a direct and imminent threat to the United States, and of ties to the attacks on the United States in September of 2001. The real motivations of the administration were firstly related to domestic politics, being a desire to distort the political process by creating a war-time condition where any criticism could be denounced as anti-patriotism, and secondly to princely pique, being the desire of the scape-grace son to both show up and fix the previous error of the father.

It would still be possible to support the war on the first two grounds, regardless of this shabby and self-serving origin of the action, in the belief that good was being done despite the motivation, in the manner of Mr. Smith's "invisible hand" directing the merchant to produce a good result despite the root of his actions in cupidity. But it does seem to me, at least, that it is hard to argue much of anything good has come of this exercise. At best, we will have simply replaced one tyrant with another, and we have certainly raised up a great many enemies newly hostile to us, and turned a country over to bloody chaos we lack the capacity to control and pacify. Make no mistake, Sir: people do not like being invaded, and the resistance they put up to it is natural, and at bottom a wholesome phenomenon.

The actions of this administration, rooted in the basest of political calculation and personal disturbance, have created a situation in which our country is committed willy-nilly to an imperial adventure that will fail, and yet from which withdrawl will most difficult. No government we erect in Iraq will be able to stand without a substantial U.S. garrisson behind it; the only government that would be genuinely popular would be one that demanded the exit of U.S. forces, and probably demanded the imposition of Shiara law as well. Thus, it is certain that the invasion of the place has made the situation worse, and that in regards both to the progress of liberty for the people of Iraq, as well as for the interests of the our own country. The sooner this policy is reversed, the better it will be for our own country; the rest can go hang, for my money....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Surface Map]

70. I respectfully

Disagree. Can I prove Sadaam was an immediate threat? No. Do I believe he was? Yes.

I also don't see how Iraq is going to worse off. If we cut and run they will but I think we have more since than that. Is there more chaos now? Yes. What about in 5-10 years fom now? No.

It has worked in other Middle Eastern countries why not Iraq? i.e. Turkey.

Hell, we've been practicing Democracy for over 228 years and we don't have it perfect yet but it's a hell of a lot better than any thing else that has been tried.

[bahrbearian]

40. Yeah, maybe we can get the Iraqi government to run the Thugs out of the WH

[papau]

2. Iraqi Police in Control of Najaf Shrine-Ministry

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20040820/ts_nm/iraq_dc

Iraqi Police in Control of Najaf Shrine-Ministry

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Iraqi police took control of the Imam Ali Mosque in the holy city of Najaf on Friday after entering the shrine and finding that militia loyal to a radical cleric had left, the Interior Ministry said.

"The Iraqi police are now in control of the shrine, along with the religious authorities," said a senior ministry spokesman.

The spokesman said the city was calm<snip>

[Spentastic]

4. Left?

Ha ha ha ha ha

[papau]

25. 500 maybe left - and maybe were arrested - details in a week

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/6D629FC1-D279-46C3-B539-74F98CCFB299.htm

<snip>The Iraqi Interior Ministry said on Friday that police had entered the revered site and taken about 500 al-Mahdi Army militiamen into custody.

There was no immediate word on whether the militiamen would receive an amnesty or remain in detention. The whereabouts of al-Sadr also remain uncertain.

But in an interview with Aljazeera, an al-Sadr aide, Ahmad al-Shaibani, denied police had entered the site.

Al-Shaibani told Aljazeera hours earlier that control of the religious site had been given to representatives of the country's most senior Shia figure.

"The keys of the Imam Ali shrine have been handed over to representatives of the Shia highest religious authority, Ayat Allah Ali al-Sistani," said al-Shaibani.."This step means the administration of the Imam Ali mausoleum has been submitted to the religious authority in the city," he added. .<snip>

[jeff30997]

3. I thought it would end up in a blood bath.

What a relief.

[seventhson]

6. It was a bloodbath! 77 killed in last 24 hours. 70+ injured

Fox saying th4ere is no indepoendent confirmation saince there are no reporters on the scene.

This is propaganda. I suspect.

I believe it was a bloodbath, but they are covering it up to keep up the lies and to hold down the rebellion.

[Frodo]

20. I thought there were reporters IN the mosque?

Reports were that they had to be escorted through the lines and that the people in the mosque were excited to see them.

[Junkdrawer]

21. They came and went...

My gut tells me that what happened last night will be a controversy for years to come.

[Frodo]

28. Nahh. SOP for that part of the world.

Deals are often cut with leaders of rival groups that allow many to "surrender" and go home.

Obviously it isn't the same country, but you may remember a few similar stories of sieges in Afghanistan? A warlord would be bought off and his troops would switch sides, or walk away free. US troops were flummoxed more than once when they thought they had some important figure surrounded only to find one of our "allies" had let them go.

[The Magistrate]

30. Indeed, Mr. Frodo

It will be several days before reports of this incident are rendered intelligible by events.

My own leading question just now is who these policemen reportedly in the shrine are actually loyal to.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Frodo]

32. Long time no see Mr Magistrate!

Good to bump in to you. How's things?

[The Magistrate]

35. And The Same To You, Sir!

Glad to see you are still about the place.

My attentions lately have been mostly confined to the Campaign forum, and my old blinds down in Israel v. Palestine.

Things go as well as can be expected in this refractory world....

"An optimist thinks this is the best possible world. A pessemist knows it."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[seventhson]

57. There ARE no policemen in the shrine, Sir. It is a BIG LIE!!!

They are covering something up. Massive executions I would bet.

[The Magistrate]

60. In Fact, Mr. Son

There are apparently no realiable reports whatever emerging from the situation as the day goes by. Any attempt at certain statement is liable to be shown up by events. Mass execution seems unlikely to me; there is no great and long-standing quarrel between the Iraqi participants on either side that would give an edge to impell such actions, and such an action would embroil those who carried it out in generations of blood-feud.

[seventhson]

61. I think Al Jazeera is the most reliable in terms of reports BUT

even CNN reports mass deaths (at least 77 reported)

The Christian Science Monitor and CNN were IN the mosque yesterday BEFORE all the killings.

I pray that I am wrong.

But the LIES coming oiut and the banishment of reporters from reporting what is happening makes it seem very likely that death sprees are happening.

And it is NOT the Iraqis killing them, It is US soldiers and special forces and Halliburton

[The Magistrate]

65. For What It Is Worth, Mr. Son

CNN is now reporting Iraqi police deny being in control of, or even in, the Ali shrine.

This thing will not sort out for days....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[seventhson]

67. Yup - It's about time. Al Jazeera - 1, CNN - 0

Cnn was duped just like with the Venexuala election a few days ago and the Florida 2000 election AGAIN

With the internet and satellite phones the media cannot spin the lies for more than a few hours unless they KILL all the reporters and everyone with a cell phone.

Or sometyhing like that

Bush is toast

[The Magistrate]

68. Indeed, Sir

Al Jazeera's coverage is pretty reliable concerning fact. Although its opinion work can be distressing, it is no worse in that regard than our own "Pravda" imitators.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Aidoneus]

62. At higher levels, that actually is the case

The peers of those who killed Sadr(HA)'s father, brothers and other family and thousands of others, still run the Secret Police, the Interior Ministry, the so-called Ministry of Defense, the head of government itself and staff executive positions, army and police offices (those not having gone over to the resistance movements, that is, which are indeed as common enough), as well as the "National Security" ministry besides the Shia titular head. All of these, of course, with the full backing and support of the occupyers; a bit like Op.Paperclip, if on a more localized scale. The criminal events of the past few days are very familiar for these functionaries and mass executions of the follwers of somebody named Sadr (whether it be Mohammed Baqir, Mohammed Sadiq, or Muqtada) would be nothing new to them.

As for reports of what's going on ... it is amazing. Wait 5min and a whole previous days' worth of reports are overturned, then 20min later it has done so a half dozen more times. Your first comment is quite insightful; there probably are "Iraqi police" in there after all, but there's no reason to just assume that they're with `Alawi and his masters.

[The Magistrate]

63. It Is An Old County Magistrate's Means Of Rebel Suppression, My Friend

Recruit them as the garrisson of the county seat....

"If we win, we're the loyal army; if we lose, we're the rebel army."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[seventhson]

55. SOP was for them to get put into the back of sealed storage trailers

and broil to death in the sun.

People get mass murdered like this after such battles. THAT was SOP in Afghanistan.

This troubles me that people dismiss the possibility of a massacre there. The news blackout is Fucked up.

I pray I am wrong, but I am no fool: this smells of massive gut-spilling and suffering.

[seventhson]

39. No, they were allowed in a few hours before the firefight:link here

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0820/p01s04-woiq.html

But I am not certain when the firefight was.

Reporters were told they would be killed if they went in or did not vacate the area by Iraqi authorities - but I think this is classic Nazi propaganda techniques.

The reporters went in, got their interviews, things looked kinda okay. Were welcomed by those in the Mosque, but weere told the Iraqi government was pushing impossioble demands (beyond what the Iraqi committee had offered and had fired on Sadr when he wanted to negotiate - sending him into hiding.

Fox reported they were not near the plaxce and could confirm NOTHING.

But google news, cnn and reuters all reported a bloodbath this morning with 77 dead and 70+ wounded AFTER the reporters were in there.

No coinfirmations on anything and there appears to be a blackout on the press corps. Only propoganda is getting released.

I think the beautiful chjildren and old people in the mosque were probably wiped out last night and they are cleaning it up now,

They "disappeared". Probably into mass graves a la Saddam/Bush

[dixielib]

5. Militants Remove Arms From Najaf Shrine

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Militiamen loyal to rebel Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr on Friday removed their weapons from the revered Imam Ali Shrine in Najaf, witnesses said.

[spinbaby]

8. Well, at least the shrine is safe.

I wonder where all those armed men are holed up now.

[Dover]

9. They couldn't have just LEFT without being seen, so I'm guessing

there was some sort of agreement made.

[Dover]

10. Here's what Aljazeera is saying:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/6D629FC1-D279-46C3-B539-74F98CCFB299.htm

[Teaser]

15. Sure they could...

Najaf is criscrossed with tunnels...

[RobertSeattle]

11. Would this make them the "mosque'd gunmen"?

Sorry, it is Friday

:silly:

[Dover]

12. Reuters is reporting that many from the militia were arrested inthe shrine

First this story says they were arrested, then they said detained, escorted out, and finally that they may be eligable for amnesty. Something doesn't quite fit here. Either their release was part of a deal that was struck, or those arrested weren't militia...hard to say.



Police Arrest Hundreds in Najaf Shrine, Not Sadr
Fri Aug 20, 2004 10:16 AM ET

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Police detained hundreds of Shi'ite militiamen when they entered the Imam Ali Mosque in Najaf on Friday, but radical Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr was not found, Iraqi officials said.
A government source put the number of fighters in the shrine at 400 but an interior ministry spokesman said police who entered the mosque had found 500 lightly armed men prepared to surrender.

"There are 500. They were escorted from the shrine then the police will help them as much as they can. They may well be covered by the amnesty," Sabah Kadhim, a spokesman for the interior minister, told CNN television in a live interview.

He said radical Shi'ite cleric Sadr may have escaped the U.S.-led military siege of the Imam Ali Mosque....cont'd

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=WVGYDDMQTDOY2CRBAEZSFEY?type=topNews&storyID=6030816

[Junkdrawer]

19. Raid last night? Perhaps the explosions and intense fighting last night...

involved a raid on the shrine that the US doesn't want to acknowledge?

:shrug:

No journalists. How would we know?

[rocktivity]

13. Well, duh--that was the smartest thing for Sadr to do.

He saves the mosque. He prevents his militia from being captured. They're still armed. And he gets clean away. He wins.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Frodo]

22. Hmmm. And yesterday people were saying he WANTED the mosque destroyed

and the militia martyred. THAT was going to be the beginning of the end for the occupation.

[Junkdrawer]

14. Any photos from the scene?

Where are the "thousands of militants" that were in the mosque?

Seems weird that they would just give their trump card to the interim government.

[rastignac5]

16. I'm sure Sadr was pressured by other clergy to leave the Mosque

While it was just a convenient fortress for him, the senior clergy were starting to get pissed off about his bunkering down in a holy site.

[Frodo]

23. One would think they would have said something a few MONTHS ago?

He's used it for some time now.

[Junkdrawer]

27. Or maybe there was a successful raid?

Journalists miles away said that there were explosions and intensive fighting in the area last night.

We also have reports of arrests.

Things are still as clear as mud right now.

[Halliburton]

17. Baathist propoganda...

<snip>
"Fighting is continuing near the Imam Ali Mosque. We can't approach the shrine because of the clashes," said Reuters cameraman Haidar Salahuddine.

Al Jazeera television also quoted a senior Sadr aide as denying police had entered the mosque. Sheikh Ahmad al-Sheibani told the channel the reports that police were inside Imam Ali Mosque were not true. It gave no further details."
<snip>

These guys are worse than Baghdad Bob.

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6030910

[readmylips]

18. Foto Op for bush....

they'll probably FedEx the keys to the shrine to bush. Another trophy for little bush.

[tlcandie]

26. bemildred stated with links that Sadr handed over the keys to the

head honcho. So, now the Iraqi police did NOT take it over! It was emptied after the keys were handed over to the top religious leader.

I'm sure Sadr and his militia aren't done in Iraq because we are still there and the puppet regime is still in control.

[Junkdrawer]

29. CNN reports US military denies rebels have left mosque..

Confusion surrounds Najaf mosque

Friday, August 20, 2004 Posted: 11:00 AM EDT (1500 GMT)

Supporters of Muqtada al-Sadr rally Thursday inside the Imam Ali Mosque.

NAJAF, Iraq (CNN) -- An Iraqi Interior Minister spokesman said Iraqi police had seized control of the Imam Ali Mosque in Najaf, but the U.S. military said the claim is false.

U.S. and Iraqi forces had surrounded the mosque -- one of the holiest shrines in Shiite Islam -- in an effort to pressure fighters, loyal to Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, who were holed up in the complex.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/08/20/iraq.main/index.html

Yep. Clear as mud.

[cal04]

43. Iraqi police deny taking control of Imam Ali Mosque

Standoff continues at Shiite shrine
Supporters of Muqtada al-Sadr rally Thursday inside the Imam Ali Mosque.
NAJAF, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraqi police in Najaf told CNN they have not seized control of the Imam Ali Mosque, contrary to a claim by an Iraqi Interior Ministry spokesman in Baghdad. There have been no signs of activity around the mosque all day Friday, according to CNN producer Kianne Sadeq, who is near the mosque.A series of confusing reports began Friday when Iraqi Interior Ministry spokesman Sabah Kadhim said Iraqi police seized the mosque.

But U.S. officials at the Pentagon said there is no sense that supporters of Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr have pulled out of the mosque; and that U.S. and Iraqi forces still surround it.And a senior aide to al-Sadr said the Medhi Army has not yet handed over the keys to the mosque since no high religious authority has been found to take them. U.S. and Iraqi forces had surrounded the mosque in an effort to pressure al-Sadr's fighters, who were holed up in the complex.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/08/20/iraq.main/index.html

[Ghetto_Boy]

33. Right now the militia either has or has not left, police in or not,

weapons either collected or not, and Sadr has either left or then again may not have.

Clear?

[The Magistrate]

36. Very, Sir

Into that clarity might be added this small question: who are these policemen really loyal to?

"The soldiers of Manchukuo desert to the partisans of the old regime whenever they have an opportunity."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[PATRICK]

37. I'm betting

the police are the ones disarmed or basically hostage unless they want to actively stop the US army arrayed outside. They are an effective stop gap to US military action so talks can play out for a long time.

Maybe the US did not want to invade the shrine either, but the shooting standoff would have ended up that way. Now there is a face saving way to freeze frame the crisis and stop unwanted damage to the shrine or more chaos.

Sounds too sensible however for the Bush regime. Sounds to me rather, like Bushco has been had by the Iraqis on both sides, neither of whose interests are served by the US heavy hand.

Meanwhile Bush is concentrating 100% of his 80 IQ on the Convention.

[al bupp]

47. Schrodinger's Shiite?

For those unfamiliar w/ the quantum physics reference:

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci341236,00.html

[Ghetto_Boy]

50. Yes! Exactly! and add to that Hiesenberg's Uncertainty & viola!

[al bupp]

69. Uncertainty Is a Foriegn Concept to the Current Admin

At least they'll never admit to having any doubts.

For my own self though, old Heisenberg's Princip has always been one of my favorites theorems.

[seventhson]

58. I think they may be killing all of them and are covering up the crime

NT

[Mari333]

34. dont believe a word that comes from the * admin or the media

which is owned by the * administration.
Remember, none of this had to happen. We all knew it would, and no one listened to us.
bring the troops home now
http://www.bringthemhomenow.com

[seventhson]

42. I second that, Mari - and YOU of all people would know, being the mother

of soldiers who serve(d) there.

To you (and to all) I recommend Solly Ganor's "Light One Candle"

[DU GrovelBot]

38. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
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==================



This week is our third quarter 2004 fund drive. Democratic
Underground is a completely independent website. We depend almost entirely
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your support.

[seventhson]

41. There is no way getting around it. It is a BLOODBATH and the media is

not only cowardly but complicit

it is a propaganda war right now but if there are at least 80 dead in the mosque and there were only a thousand or so there it obviously either a massacre or an ongoing firefight of frightening proportions.


We have become the Nazis.


This reminds me of the reports and rumors spread in the Lithuanian ghettoes during \various "actions"

How can we believe anything cnn tells us anymore???

On edit: Correction - nearly 80 dead in fighting near the mosque. It is hard to tell what that means - except a LOT of death right now.

[daleo]

44. Surprised nobody has mentioned the torched oil office, warehouse

This happened yesterday. The blaze was said to be huge. I think perhaps the U.S. and puppet regime were warned that if Al-Sadr and his men were not allowed to leave, and the mosque not turned over to religious authorities, the precious oil infrastructure would really get it. Then, they torched this office and warehouse to prove they could do it. Once the BFEE realized that the spice was in danger, they gave in, with a little face saving for both sides thrown into the bargain.

This was a loss for Bushco and Allawi, unless there are "surprising developments" i.e. a BFEE double cross on any negotiated pullback.

[MisterP]

45. or not: "Iraqi police deny taking control of Imam Ali Mosque"

from your link

[Dover]

64. ..

..

[Dover]

66. Iraqi Mosque Remains In Militia's Hands

Iraqi Mosque Remains In Militia's Hands

From Radio Free Europe wire:

Militiamen loyal to al-Sadr gather near the Imam Ali Mosque today.

___________

20 August 2004 -- Militia loyal to radical Shi'ite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr appear to remain in control of the Imam Ali Mosque in Al-Najaf today, despite earlier statements from Iraq's interim government that Iraqi police had moved into the shrine.


A senior Interior Ministry spokesman earlier today said police had entered the mosque without a shot being fired and arrested hundreds of militiamen.

A top al-Sadr aide refuted that statement. The U.S. military also said it could not confirm Iraqi police had taken control of the mosque.

Al-Sadr has said he will hand over control of the mosque to Iraq's most influential Shi'ite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani....cont'd

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/08/eb98270f-be51-4ade-bc54-264051714096.html

Another web site on Iraq: http://www.rferl.org/specials/iraqcrisis/

And from REUTERS:

Sadr Militia Still Controls Iraq Shrine -- Witnesses

Fri Aug 20, 2004 06:27 PM ET

By Michael Georgy
NAJAF, Iraq (Reuters) - Shi'ite fighters appeared to be in control of a holy shrine in Najaf Friday hours after Iraq's interim government said it had overcome a bloody uprising by seizing the Imam Ali mosque without a shot being fired.

Witnesses in the southern city said Mehdi Army militiamen loyal to radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr controlled the narrow alleys leading to the mosque, though the Shi'ite leader's whereabouts were unknown. Police were nowhere to be seen.

Police in Najaf told CNN they did not control the site, Iraq's holiest Shi'ite Muslim shrine, the broadcaster reported.

Confusion over the fate of the mosque swirled as the rebellion that has killed hundreds and driven world oil prices to record highs entered its third week.......cont'd

http://tinyurl.com/6fhtl