Ruling Says Mistake Gave Paul Hamm Gold

[PatrickS]

45 minutes ago

By EDDIE PELLS, AP Sports Writer

ATHENS, Greece - Paul Hamm's gold medal just lost some of its luster. A mistake in scoring of the all-around gymnastics final cost Yang Tae-young the gold that ended up going to Hamm, the International Gymnastics Federation said Saturday. The South Korean got the bronze instead.

Three judges were suspended, but the FIG said results would not be changed and Hamm would keep his gold medal.

The error Wednesday cost Yang a tenth of a point on his parallel bars score that made the difference between third and first. But South Korea failed to lodge a protest during the event, so the scoring was not changed.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040821/ap_on_sp_ol/oly_scoring_protest_gym&cid=554&ncid=716

[Proud2BAmurkin]

1. A story only Scalia could love

nt

[krkaufman]

35. Ha! n/t

[oneighty]

2. Gold medal tarnished?

Indeed.

180

[alarcojon]

3. What would you do in Hamm's shoes?

I would at least make a statement that Yang deserves the medal. Such a difficult position for Hamm, but imagine how Yang feels.

[alcuno]

28. It's just like The Brady Bunch episode.

The won where Jan wins a writing contest due to an error. Hamm needs to follow the lead of Jan Brady!

[alarcojon]

29. Refresh my memory

I must have seen it, but I don't remember that one.

[Kinkistyle]

30. Olympics' fault, so they should bite the bullet and issue 2nd gold.

That would be the right thing to do. Think about it, for these people, the Olympics are everything. They train their whole lives for this competition - working their asses off, going to school etc and training non-stop just for a chance at the medal, and to lose on a judge's error is just horrendous.

[alcuno]

33. A true classic and a great lesson in morality.

Jan, desperate to be better than Marsha at SOMETHING, writes an essay for a school contest. Low and behold, she wins and Marsha heaps praise upon her. Sitting in her bedroom, Jan does a recount of the points she earned only to discover that the teacher had added wrong. Paralyzed by indecision, Jan says nothing until moments before she is to read her essay in front of the student body and proud family.

She gets the teacher's attention and whispers in her ear. The teacher then brings Jan out and announces to those assembled the honorable and courageous actions of one Jan Brady. The crowd errupts with cheering and applause. End of story.

See. Paul Hamm could learn from Jan Brady.

[louis-t]

36. Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!

[Catch22Dem]

4. It's unfortunate

But it's certainly not Hamm's fault. I think his high-bar routine was 2nd to NONE, but it was an ALL AROUND competition. Apparently the rules state they can't take Hamm's gold, which is fine with me. Hopefully they'll find a way to give the S.Korean a gold as well because he certainly deserved it.

[LisaL]

9. It makes no sense

It makes no sense for them to say that even though mistake was made, nothing can be done.
As everybody remembers, they awarded Canadian figure skaters gold medals after the fact. And there was no obvious mistake such as this, only accusations of impropriety, which I don't think they ever proved.
Somethings stinks to high heaven.
They could award the Korean a gold medal if they so wanted, as they obviously did in winter Olympic with Canadian figure skaters.

[Catch22Dem]

10. Yeah, that's what I was alluding to

The skating in the 02 games. I would assume it would be perfectly acceptable to award a 2nd gold to the S.Korean.

[LisaL]

14. I wonder

I really wonder if the situation was reversed-what would they have done?
If Mr. Hamm received the bronze medal only to find out his routine score was too low because of the judges mistake.
I think he would have awarded his gold medal, just like Canadian pair got their gold medals even though they only had a word of French judge to go on and she kept changing her story.
Something stinks to high heave here, and it ain't pretty.

[tabasco]

22. That's the ticket - give the Korean a gold too.

He deserved it so give him one and call it a tie. Jeepers - why do they have to make everything so difficult? Will the price of tea in China plummet if two athletes receive the gold? I think not.

[Cronus Protagonist]

52. True dat

werd


SHOVE IT! - Drop Bush Not Bombs! - Hero Kerry AWOL Bush
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[Corgigal]

58. That wasn't a mistake

the fix was in for that one. They caught the judges at the hotel room making deals.

[LisaL]

59. NO!

They didn't catch the judges in a hotel room making deals.
The French judge said that the pressure was put on her by her own Federation.
Then she went back to France and said that it didn't happen. She seemed a highly unstable person. Nobody else admitted anything.
They never proved anything at all-but yet Canadians got a gold medal.
Yet in a case of an obvious mistake which they admit, they refuse to award Korean a gold medal.

[PCIntern]

5. Typical...

let's see if this guy's still on the Wheaties box when all is said and done.

Actually he would be a good candidate for the box in the Red states. After all, it's the result that counts even when the judges are bereft of morals, or in this case, arithmetic ability.

And, like the Gore people, they didn't raisse a ruckus in a timely fashion, so tough s--t to them, right?

[Catch22Dem]

11. You act as though it's his fault

He doesn't award the points to himself. The judges aren't American, just one of them. For that matter, I'd think most of the judges were pretty anti-American when you consider America's place in the world these days.

I just don't think the irritation and contempt should be leveled at the athlete.

[PCIntern]

45. You misread my post...

I was referring to the nature of what happens in America when the media gets a hold of something.

[Catch22Dem]

46. My apologies

I did misread.

[Trajan]

6. I watched most of that .....

and I felt Hamm lost ..... He fell severely on the vault, and his later performances, while good, werent SO good as to warrant overcoming his vault disaster .... His floor exercise was overvalued, and his high bar routine, though excellent, was not unprecedented ....

Hamm is a fine gymnist, and a good american boy, but he deserved at most a silver .... The Korean should have won the gold ....

Just my perspective ...

[LizW]

8. I didn't get the scoring

Of course, I know nothing about how the judges score, but it seemed they scored Hamm's parallel bar routine very high compared to the other medal contenders. His routine just didn't look as difficult as theirs.

But regardless, it is a heartbreaker for all concerned. The judges should be banned from judging international conpetitions.

[Catch22Dem]

12. His high-bar routine

Kicked ass though, didn't it? I thought so. His looked about 3X harder than any of the others. 3 releases in a row, and 3(?) revolutions one-handed. Kick ass routine and executed flawlessly.

[Trajan]

15. It appeared to kick ass ....

and there was some decent physicality to his routine ....

But it wasnt 'perfect' ... perfect would be EVERY handstand being PERFECTLY vertical, straight up with no lean .... Hamm's stands were NOT fully vertical, except in a few instances ...

Hamm is a great gymnist, I simply dont think he was the best that day ....

[susanna]

27. Just goes to show how different people's perceptions can be.

I thought his form, extension and pacing were all very solid. I didn't see too many form breaks (if any) when I watched it. Ah well, maybe I missed something.

[lazarus]

32. This is why

I don't think gymnastics is a true sport. Neither is diving. Nor is Olympic boxing.

If it's subjective, it's not a sport, it's an artistic athletic demonstration.

[susanna]

24. Yes...

As a former competitive gymnast, you're right on. Hamm's high bar routine was beautiful and much harder than nearly all of the others. There are not many folks who throw three releases like that - especially one after the other. I was in awe the entire time, and I'm a pretty tough critic.

Also, I've seen his "normal" routine (from Worlds) and it has FIVE releases. He was playing it safe, believe it or not...

[Skittles]

51. I felt the same way

I was astounded when Hamm won the gold

[msmcghee]

7. How could he possibly keep it?

What value is a gold medal that he himself knows is undeserved.

I would agree to personal trade medals with the Korean and possibly the Silver Medal winner too to make things as right as possible. I would feel like a fraud if I kept it.

[TheDonkey]

16. Judges make mistakes all the time, it's not a scientific process

I wouldn't mind at all. The luster would be taken away some but for such a minimal point change, you never know if one of his other performances was jipped by them.

[msmcghee]

23. When you sign up to compete . .

. . in any judged competition you sign up to accept the judging. Judging is human and sometimes political. If you don't want to compete under those limitations, then you don't have to.

But if you do, then you have to accept the outcome. In this case the judges have issued a statement that a mistake was made. They have rules to govern these possibilities and the rules are allowing him to keep his gold medal - even though he was not the actual winner in this case. He can certainly do that.

To exchange it would be a personal decision. I will not respect Hamm if he keeps it under these circumstances. I see this as all part of the peculiar American view of sports that has very little to do with honor and sacrifice - and everything to do with appearances and bluster and winning at all costs - that sees the refs as just another opponent to be overcome using intimidation or anything else that will work.

Sports in the US is almost entirely devoid of honor. The Olympics is only a bit better IMO.

[LisaL]

39. YEP

Kind of like US election, even if there was a problem, whoever they calculated most votes for in the end wins.

[msmcghee]

40. YEP, that's how it works.

And we can opt out, move to another country - or change the system if it gets fucked up by RW assholes. That's my preference.

But everybody in this country is now living under the reality of *'s gold medal awarded by a crooked set of judges. You too.

But in this case the judges seem to be trying to correct a mistake, a human error, under the existing rules, while being as fair as posssible.

I'm talking about Hamm's resposibility to himself.

That's a personal ethical question. Not a "problem with the system" type question.

[LisaL]

41. Exactly

At least in this case they could somewhat correct a mistake and give the Korean another gold medal, but they refuse. So, no, they are not trying to correct their own mistake. Winner takes all, even if he is a false winner.

[msmcghee]

42. You may know more about this than I do, but . .

. . I thought they were following existing rules (about how to handle this kind of situation) that all countries agreed to before sending their teams to the Olympics. I though that they would be violating those rules if they handled it any other way.

Can you clarify?

[LisaL]

43. Rules?

Where were the rules when Canadian figure skating couple was awarded the second gold medal during winter Olympics?
Furthermore, according to the rules, Koreans should have complained right after the routine-which they say they did, but were told to write a letter after the meet was over.
Apparently, rules are meant to be broken-when it suits them.

[msmcghee]

26. The "luster would be taken away some"?

A gold medal is a gold medal. It means you are better than all other competitors. It's not matter of luster my friend. It's a matter of being honest to yourself. Either you are or you are not.

[Red State Rebel]

47. I've been at the bad end of some judging errors - not fun!

It's a tough call, but I think they should award a 2nd Gold to the other gymnast.

[shadu]

Because, he is 'Murikan: he has the right!

You are correct. He admits he does not deserve the medal,
so why is he keeping the medal?

[shadu]

20. Because, he is 'Murikan: he has the right!

You are correct. He admits he does not deserve the medal,
so why is he keeping the medal?

[shadu]

21. Because, he is 'Murikan: he has the right!

You are correct. He admits he does not deserve the medal,
so why is he keeping the medal?

[geek tragedy]

13. Incompetent judging hurts everyone involved.

It hurts Hamm. It hurts the Korean.

Dumbfucks.

Though, the Korean team also should get criticism for not keeping on top of this.

[LisaL]

17. Blame the victim?

As I understand it, his highest possible score should have been 10 instead of 9.9.
Is it possible that Koreans only received all the paper work after the fact?
For instance, a score of 9.7 could be either 10-0.3 or 9.9-0.2.
Would the Korean team even know in time to complain that his highest possible score was wrong? They would have to file a complain immediately after the rotation for it to have an effect.

[geek tragedy]

18. Not trying to blame the victim--the Korean gymnast.

But, given the rules, it seems that the information should have been available to the teams at the time. If not, something is seriously wrong with the gymnastics people do business

Before too long, there's going to be a specialty of law practice for athletic judging. Sad.

[LisaL]

31. Koreans claim they questioned the score after the routine

But were told to file a protest letter after the meet.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5770606/

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

34. I suspect that the three judges

were suspended because the Koreans questioned the score and the judges didn't handle it properly, not just because the judges made the mistake in the starting point value.

Hamm won the gold in the competition, was awarded the gold, and at this point it would not be right to take it away from him, or expect him to just give it back. And it isn't just Hamm, the silver place person would lose their medal to Hamm and would have to take the bronze. Besides, perhaps if the judges had not made the mistake, one of the other players would have done something differently and changed the outcome even more (or less). No one can judge what would have happened and it would cheapen all competitions if you are awarded a medal but it isn't really yours because if they discover a mistake you lose it.

However, after the fact if the Korean gets his .1 back he has the highest score and should be given a gold medal for his performance. So what that there are two golds and one silver.

[LisaL]

38. They are not going to give the Korean a second gold medal

They say it's like a football match-well, they obviously didn't think so when they awarded candadian figure skaters a second gold medal.
And in that case, they didn't even have such an obvious mistake as here-there were accusations of inpropriety, based on what French judge said, and that woman kept on changing her story.
I think it's extremely unfair.

[shadu]

19. Give Yang Tae a gold medal, by god!

Hamm admits Yang should have won.
Let Hamm keep his, so it doesn't break his little heart,
and give a second gold to Yang Tae.
Shit like this is why I stopped watching the Olympics years ago.
Common sense should rule the day.

[fishwax]

44. Where does Hamm admit Yang should have won?

I didn't see that in the article. Have you seen it somewhere else?

[Purrfessor]

25. The only way to resolve scoring errors is to go to a format of

full contact gymnastics, just like in log rolling, for example. The first one knocked off the bars, rings, etc. is out of the competition.

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[truthisfreedom]

48. so to make it right, the gold winner would have to give his medal to the

bronze winner, the bronze to the silver winner, and the silver winner would give his to the gold?

[robcon]

49. The legalistic reason is bogus.

The technicality of the timing of a protest, when there was no hint of a problem with the scoring, is totally wrong.

The officials should have one objective: get the scores right.

[Princess Turandot]

50. Let's not forget that the Olympic Judges screwed an American..

gymnast who was expected to help them compete for the team medal, by announcing the Saturday before the competition started, that the routines used by him and another US gymnast, were no longer worth what they had been worth at the World Games. These guys practice their routines for months. The one guy added a move he had not practiced, in order to raise his difficulty level, and slipped and fell, whacking his head pretty well.

The US did not even have the ability to protest that change because the judges have the right to do those sorts of things, even at the last minute. I feel a lot more badly for him, because I think he was intentionally screwed over. I believe it was a Japanese judge who made the decision as the lead judge, and Japan just happened to win the overall ream Gold medal. In the Hamm case, the judges made an error, and the S. Korean coaches failed to file a protest on time.
For all one knows, Hamm could have raised his effort and scored more in the floor exercise than he did. I wouldn't rush to say that he didn't deserve it.

[fishwax]

53. Well, telling someone

before the fact is different than telling someone after the fact. The Americans (3, not 2 of them) had a chance to change their routines if desired. The Korean different have that chance.

And the individual all-around, in which the Korean apparently got screwed, doesn't have anything to do with the team competition, in which the Americans suffered a setback in the PRELIMS, not the finals.

[Princess Turandot]

54. Telling them 2 days before the competition began?..

after they accepted the routines at the world championships?
Bullshit if I've ever heard it. The fellow who fell was expected to go onto to the final team competition.They practice these routines for months on end, and the point reduction was sufficient to require the addition of a move that he had not practiced. Total bullshit.It's not as if these guys show up at a match and do an extemporaneous routine.

I know the individual contest has nothing to do with the team competition. But I think the American team was intentionally screwed over, bigtime, by a last minute, allowable and sizeable reduction in the value of their routines. The judges made an error with the Korean. I also however don't know if you can predict that everything in the last round would have stayed the same had the judging of the Korean been correct.

At a minimum, the Americans who got screwed deserve as much sympathy as the Korean does.I think that was intentional. The latter was an error.

[LisaL]

55. It has nothing to do with whether Hamm deserves it or not

Korean didn't get the right point value because of the mistake by judges.
The judges have been suspended but even though everybody knows Korean should have gotten gold if judges gave him a correct score, he isn't getting the gold. It has nothing to do with whether Hamm thinks if he won or not or who did better. It's not a subjective mistake-it's a technical mistake by judges in which they didn't use the correct value to calculate the points for the Korean.

[alarimer]

56. yes

Any sport where there is judging, there will be problems now and then. Hamm is not responsible for the judges problem. He was better than anyone else on that particular apparatus. The others left the door open with little mistakes, even the Koreans. People here seem to be criticizing him simply because he is a American. There seems to be a lot of American-bashing from this board when it comes to the Olympics. I am rooting for the Americans myself (except in men's basketball- bunch of non-team players there).

[LisaL]

57. Not the apparatus

What does it have to do with an apparatus?
It's an all around competition, and Hamm had completely fallen in the middle of it during his jump. After which he was in 12 place.
The last two routines combined got him to the "first" place, but only because Korean's score wasn't calculated correctly.

[praeclarus]

60. must have been one of those new Diebold ...

... Gymanstic Routine Initial Value Setting Machines.

All the judges said initial value 10, out popped value
of 9.9.

[LisaL]

61. YEP

YEP, it's the same if they calculated votes during the election, know they added it up incorrectly, but then say "sorry, rules are rules-whoever got most votes on election day wins, even though we didn't add them right".