Report: Armed Men Seize School in Russia (Breaking)

[Snazzy]

Report: Armed Men Seize School in Russia
The Associated Press
Wednesday, September 1, 2004; 2:25 AM


MOSCOW - Armed men seized a school in the Russian region of North Ossetia Wednesday morning and were in a gun battle with police, the Interfax news agency reported.

The report, citing local law enforcement authorities, said the seizure took place in the city of Beslan. Further details were not immediately available

....

(snip 1)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51456-2004Sep1.html

Interfax reported this. On CNNi now too.

CNN says it may be two schools, and they have hostages.

[stickdog]

1. Well, thank God that when the US was attacked on 9/11, Bush was smart

enough to use the kids in the grammar school he was at as his own personal human shields for a full 35 minutes after the second plane hit the WTC!

[AP]

2. You know, I think one thing to keep in mind is that this might be a false

flag operation. I presume that these people are going to reveal themselves to be Chechens. But I think -- and I'm totally just trying to spin out ideas that aren't based on concrete facts at all -- that it might be reasonable to keep in mind that maybe the oil interests who are pissed about the (de facto) nationalization of Lukoil (sp?) would use a false flag operation, pretending to be Chechens, in order to destabilize the government. This is quite on offensive the last couple days in Russia. It seems like someone's pushing for something dramatic to happen, and I wonder if it's Chechens or the oil barrons, or something crazy like that.

[allemand]

9. Conspirators don't undertake suicide missions n/t

[AP]

21. No, but you could probably pay a lot of money to the survivors

of people who are suicidal in order to get them to go out with a bang.

I just thought it was something to keep in mind.

[HereSince1628]

51. Hellooooooooo? 911 was a conspiracy & suicide missions!!!!!!!!!!

Is it just me or has someones RAM failed?

[allemand]

54. It's indeed the best argument that 9/11 was no conspiracy

but a terrorist attack. Nobody would want to die for a conspiracy.

[HereSince1628]

56. I think there is a problem with English language usage here...

A group of people planning to commit a crime _IS_ a conspiracy. I urge you not to trust me but to go to a comprehensive dictionary.

I have no doubt about the meaning of conspiracy in the English language... it is a group of people meeting to perpetrate a crime or antisocial/unethical act.

Maybe English isn't your first language, or maybe you are still in the process of acquiring English as your first language.

There is no doubt that 17 people coordinating 4 attacks on 911 is a conspiracy.

On edit: There is no reason to believe that terrorism cannot involve conspiracy. Indeed, I would think that organized terrorism would include this by definition.

[allemand]

60. There aren't any "conspiracy theories" about 9/11, are there?

By the likes of Thierry Meyssan? :eyes:

And you never heard the term being used in that sense? Sure... :-)

[HereSince1628]

66. I am just pointing out the egregious error in the posted subject line

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Regardless of post hoct non sequiters.

[allemand]

94. You are free to ignore the referential function of language (Jakobson)

at your own risk... :-)
Maybe you just walk around making universal statements... :eyes:

I take it that Latin is not your first language, but I promise you:

Post hoc nihil sequitur.

[realcountrymusic]

102. Hoc post . . .

What a strange delight to see Roman Jakobson mentioned on DU.

rcm

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

68. that's so stupid

of course it's Chechens, they said after the planes went down that they were going to attack again and again, and it was Chechens yesterday that blew up a car bomb.

[Eurobabe]

3. Subliminable message to the USA

Does anyone else think that these types of attacks are subliminable 'messages' to instill fear in the US? See what will happen if you don't reselect chimpy? Just waiting for the media to spin this into a story: "Thank God Bush is pResident."

By tomorrow I bet.

[cspiguy]

13. tinfoil maybe, but russian airliners downed, schools taken over

(remember the children), French hostages (???!) during the convention. If the viewer-sheep didn't know any better, they would think there is a war going on with the west.

[Sindawe]

4. Two things come to mind....

When I hear of dren like this, and the killing of the 12 citizens of Nepal, and the airliners in Russia, and the Taliban sticking its ugly mug up from the shadows again.

SiO2. 510nm.

[highnooner]

7. SiO2. 510nm???

What?

[ParanoidPat]

48. Silicon dioxide, and a wavelength of 510 nanometers?.......

......What does recrystallization of polysilicon have to do with this? :shrug:

[RivetJoint]

10. What do optics have to do with this?

[leftchick]

5. Here is an update...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=518&ncid=716&e=2&u=/ap/20040901/ap_on_re_eu/russia_school_seizure

<snip>
The hostage-takers demanded the release of fighters detained over a series of attacks on police facilities in neighboring Ingushetia in June, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported, citing regional officials. The well-coordinated raids killed more than 90 people.


ITAR-Tass, citing regional emergency officials, said about 400 people including some 200 children were being held captive. A regional police official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the hostages had been herded into the school gymnasium.


There were 17 attackers, both male and female, and the gang included some who were wearing suicide-bomb belts, Interfax said, citing Ismel Shaov, a regional spokesman for the Federal Security Service.


In television footage from outside the school in Beslan, a town about 10 miles north of the regional capital of Vladikavkaz, men in camouflage with heavy-caliber machine guns took up positions on the perimeter and other men in civilian dress with light automatic rifles paced nervously.

[girl gone mad]

6. My sympathies go to..

the parents. I hope the Russian government does not make the smae mistake they made when the theater was seized.

[Krupskaya]

8. Those poor families...

What a nightmare. Thoughts to the children. :(

[cspiguy]

14. any group doing this to kids disqualifies itself from world sympathy -

forever.

[HuckleB]

18. So then we can dismiss almost every group of people in the word...

from "world sympathy."

[rastignac5]

28. Please list all the groups of people in the world who target children

for mass execution.

[HuckleB]

30. You're kidding, right?

List the groups in world history who have not targeted children for "mass execution." Russia has murdered tens of thousands of innocent Chechen children, but where is the outcry? The US has murdered thousands of innocent children around the world, but where is the outcry? And on and on and on.

On edit: I find your question particularly interesting, especially considering that we live in a country whose government ranted and raved about how terrible it was for al-Jazeera to show the dead innocent, Iraqi and Afghani children, killed by US bombs.

[One_Life_To_Give]

44. Target Vs. Collateral

The difference is Targeting Vs. Collateral damage.
Many people see a difference between targeting a barracks and killing the kids next to it as opposed to intentionally trying to kill kids.

[HuckleB]

49. Many people don't see a difference, when homes nowhere near...

military installations are bombed for no good reason, however.

This happens frequently in Chechnya, and it has happened in Iraq. Now, of course, we could also talk about children slaves and slaughtered children Native Americans, too, among others, if you really want to go down that road.

[DrWeird]

58. Same kind of thing Osama would say.

The targets were just the buildings. The people in them were collateral damage.

I'm pretty sure those troops who raped Iraqi children were hitting what they were aiming at.

[Nadienne]

62. I recall hearing stories of

US soldiers hurting the children of Iraqi parents in order to gain cooperation from the Iraqi parents. I would call that "targeting". I'll try to find links to the articles...

[coalition_unwilling]

32. How about the 14 who died in Waco b/c the FBI couldn't be patient?

[realcountrymusic]

104. War is not healthy

But let's give it a go for the exercise:

Hamas (don't even try to argue: they blow up school buses)
Timothy McVeigh
the Indonesian army
US soldiers at Abu Ghraib (alleged)
rebel soldiers in Congo and CAR
militias in Sudan
the Niacaraguan Contras

the list could go on. All war targets the weak and innocent, and because children are so precious to people, they are also an irresistible symbolic target for so many evil and desperate aggresors too.

Personally, I don't see too many shades of gray between the "collateral" killing of children by US bombs in Iraq and what's happening in Russia. But two evils don't make a good. And what these terrorists are doing is unabashedly, in-your-face evil.


rcm

[Mizmoon]

11. There really are enemies out there

To me, this is an indication of what we already knew. There really are very aggressive, violent Islamic militias out there. They are willing to do a great deal of harm (as are we and the Russians).

Think about the Afghan War that the Russians lost. That loss emboldened the Chechnyans. Yes, I am aware they have legit grips too, but taking children hostage is bullshit. Attacking a theater is bullshit too.

This is exactly why Bush has put us in danger. If we are going to engange these types of groups in the Middle East, we damn well better win. But did we stay engaged in Afghanistan? Did we keep any of our rebuilding promises? No, of course not. * decided that it would be a much better idea to spread the military paper thin by attacking Iraq as well and make the struggle much more difficult to win.

The worst thing in the world for us would be to lose this struggle, and bankrupt ourselves in the process, just like the Soviet Union did. This is exactly the course monkey boy has set us upon.

Why we didn't stay with the main plan of rebuilding Afghanistan as an example of both American generosity and power is beyond me. I had high, high hopes that we would help the Afghans make their nation into something special. I don't know why I bother. We never seem to keep with our stated ideals and goals. What a shame.

This particular attack is vile beyond description. Let us all hope that these children and their parents get out alive.

[LibLabUK]

12. Violence...

"but taking children hostage is bullshit"

I'm of the belief that violence, especially against innocents,negates whatever cause you're fighting for, no matter how noble it may be.

The Chechens gave up their moral highground (fight for independance from Russia) the moment they took to suicide bombs and hostage-taking.

[cspiguy]

15. The Chechens gave up their moral highground

as Hamas and similar groups did when they started blowing up busses.

[HuckleB]

17. Which Chechens are you speaking of?

You do realize that there are warlord groups that have gone after everyone in their quest for power in the vacuum left by Russia's war of terror on Chechnya, don't you? We don't know who these people are, and the reality is that most Chechens have little to do with the insurgents.

Nevermind the lack of coverage given to Russian bombing of residential areas, where tens of thousands of civilian Chechens, including children, have been killed. For what? This is tiddly winks compared to the terror and murder at the hands of Russia. Yet the press still doesn't cover the true horror of what's gone on in Chechnya. Why?

[jayfish]

36. Did The Russians Give Up Their High Ground When They Leveled Groznyy?

How may children do you think were killed from this?



Jay

[gottaB]

38. What makes you think bombs were dropped on children?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1407109#1407169

[jayfish]

39. Did You See The Picture Of Groznyy Square I Posted?

There is nothing left. How did they miss children?

http://www.aif.ru:81/data/mags/aif/1076/pics/05_03_00.jpg

Jay

[gottaB]

40. Did you follow the link I posted?

Was the picture not visible?

[jayfish]

41. Just Finished.

But I don't get your position. Sorry, I guess I'm just not with it today :shrug:.

Jay

[gottaB]

43. okay, I'll explain

My position is that aerial bombardment of civilian areas is almost always a war crime. Sieges illustrate the folly of applying military power to broader political and social problems. Aerial bombardment just exacerbates the catastrophe.

To explain my post. The photos is from the siege of Grozny. In the background are destroyed dwellings. The children walk through the destruction, the smaller one clinging to a doll and holding the other's hand. To me that's a mark of insecurity, perhaps terror.

In the bottom corner is an unexploded bomb. One sees how narrowly the two children escaped death.

The words are those of a US State Dept. official speaking prior to the invasion of Iraq. I crossed them out because the siege of Fallujah clearly negates the moral sense behind those words, and anyway, it seems to me that the US backed off criticizing Russia and isn't really committed to doing anything about the conduct of the war in Chechnya.

So, to answer your question, have the Russians given up the high ground by their siege of Grozny? That does tend to happen.

I don't believe that excuses taking children hostage, but I agree that the destructive impact of the Chechen war has been underreported and should not be forgotten. It has a bearing on subsequent events.

[jayfish]

47. Cool, I Thought We Were On The Same Page -NT-

Jay

[HuckleB]

16. From the NYTimes:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/01/international/europe/01CND-RUSS.html?hp

[lil-petunia]

19. proof positive that we are winning the war on terra

Oh, wait, we cannot ever win the war. That is why we need Patriot II and Patriot I to be extended.
Oh sorry. Small error. We CAN win the war on terra, but you need Repukes in office to do so.



Riiiiiiiiiight.

[HuckleB]

20. Grim prospect of the war without end

Grim prospect of the war without end
http://www.chechentimes.org/en/comments/?id=20795

"...

Moscow’s spokesmen push the line that the Chechens are living better each day and the only resistance comes from a small band of terrorists, part of the global jihad.

Western liberal commentators, by contrast, seek to lionise the Chechen freedom fighters and paint the conflict as a struggle of national liberation against a brutal colonial power.

But after a decade of killing Chechnya defies easy analysis. Any idealism was all but knocked out of the Chechens during the 1999 assault on the republic when Russia dropped thousands of shells an hour on Grozny alone.

There are now few heroes either among the Russians, who claim to be fighting terrorism, or the rebels who target innocent civilians in the name of national liberation. The only constant, is the suffering of civilians: women and children driven from their homes, their menfolk terrorised or killed by masked gunmen seeking information, retribution or simply valuables.

..."

[HuckleB]

22. Isn't it odd that THIS act of terror didn't make it to the world stage?

Polish neo-Nazis raid Chechen camp
http://www.chechentimes.org/en/refugees/?id=20719

"Polish neo-Nazis have raided a camp housing Chechen refugees near Warsaw, the Chechenpress news agency reported Tuesday. The agency said up to 20 Polish youths burst into the Moshna camp 20 miles from Warsaw and attacked residents with broken bottles and gas pistols. During the attacks, which came in several waves Sunday night, Molotov cocktails were also hurled onto balconies in an attempt to set the camp ablaze.

..."

[Mizmoon]

27. I can't find another reference to this alleged attack

from any other source. Can you post one?

[HuckleB]

33. Exactly.

The press doesn't give a rip about things that happen to Chechens, but it sure covers the heck out of anything that a Chechen does to others.

[HuckleB]

23. kick

[HuckleB]

24. Another update.

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6125624

[lil-petunia]

25. oh damn. thanks for the site. n/t

[Maddy McCall]

26. This is horrible. 400 hostages, most children.

Am saying a prayer for this to end peacefully, but I am afraid that it won't.

[Zynx]

29. Man, how badly do these people want to be exterminated?

Two airliners, a car bomb in Moscow, and now this?

Putin's just going to kill all the Chechens and be done with it.

[HuckleB]

31. Yeltsin and Putin have already killed hundreds of thousands of Chechens.

Most of them innocent bystanders.

Where's the outcry for them?

[Zynx]

35. Are you saying threatening to kill kids is justified?

That's pretty warped.

[HuckleB]

37. Are you putting words in my mouth?

That's pretty warped.

Nevermind that you brought up exterminating the entire population.

By the way, when have you been up in arms about what the Russians have done to those hundreds of thousands of innocent Chechens? Or haven't you gotten there yet?

If not, that's REALLY pretty warped.

[Nadienne]

52. Is this retaliation for what Russia does to Chechnya?

All I'm hearing from mainstream media is that they want Freedom Fighters released...? They say that the Freedom Fighters are being detained for attacking the police...? (Of course, if a riot broke out at a protest in the US, the media would probably accuse protestors of attacking the police, even if that's not what really happened.)

I tend to think that the Russians would have had to do something pretty terrible to provoke this. Could it be that these "terrorists" resorted to this because they thought they had no other way?

Or is it more likely that this is more like a violent temper tantrum?

[HuckleB]

53. There are no real easy answers, though there are many pushing them.

What Russia has done to the Chechen people is beyond horror and beyond belief. Many of the troops that Russia has planted in Chechnya over the years were untrained prisoners who took an early release to "join" the military. These guys have spent their time in Chechnya killing and raping and stealing, and, alas, the regular army is not innocent of this either. Civilian homes and hospitals have been bombed repeatedly. It goes on and on and on.

Obviously, there is no justification for taking children hostage, however. Though, sure, they may feel that they had no other tactic left to them. I don't know. I don't know which band these people come from, or what their motives are. One has to remember that warlords after power filled the vacuum left when Russia attacked in 1994 and 1999. These are not the original freedom fighters, and it's a mistake to identify these individuals with Chechens as a people.

As for their demands, here is one more:

Attackers demand withdrawal of Russian troops from Chechnya
http://www.prime-tass.com/news/show.asp?topicid=68&id=357668

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuckleB]

111. Thanks for offering more racist propaganda.

Your generalizations are quite humorous, albeit incredibly off-base and sick.

[DrWeird]

59. Man, how badly did the Russians piss these people off?

Obviously pretty bad.

[HuckleB]

34. Torture and rape stalk the streets of Chechnya

Torture and rape stalk the streets of Chechnya

Polish writer Krystyna Kurczab-Redlich visited the region where she witnessed the brutal work done by Russia's soldiers in their fight against separatists
http://www.guardian.co.uk/chechnya/Story/0,2763,820277,00.html

"At 5am on 14 April 2002, an armoured vehicle moved slowly down Soviet Street. A young brown-haired man, covered in blood, his hands and feet bound, stood onboard. The vehicle stopped and the man was pushed off and brought over to a nearby chain-link fence. The car took off and there was a loud bang. The force of the explosion, caused either by a grenade or dynamite, sent the man's head flying into the neighbouring street, called Lenin's Commandments. 'It was difficult to photograph the moment, though I have grown somewhat accustomed to this,' says a petite greying Chechen woman, who has spent years documenting what Russia calls its 'anti-terrorism campaign'.

Blowing people up, dead or alive, she reports, is the latest tactic introduced by the federal army into the conflict. It was utilised perhaps most effectively on 3 July in the village of Meskyer Yurt, where 21 men, women and children were bound together and blown up, their remains thrown into a ditch.

From the perspective of the perpetrators, this method of killing is highly practical; it prevents the number of bodies from being counted, or possibly from ever being found. It has not always succeeded in this respect, however. Since the spring, dogs have been digging up body parts in various corners of Chechnya, sometimes almost daily.

Meanwhile, the more traditional methods endure. On 9 September the bodies of six men from Krasnostepnovskoye were found, naked, with plastic bags wrapped around their heads. In June, a ditch containing 50 mutilated bodies was discovered near the Russian army post in Chankala. The corpses were missing eyes, ears, limbs and genitals. Since February, mass graves have been found near Grozny, Chechen Yurt, Alkhan-Kala and Argun.

..."

[GoldenOldie]

42. Proves how little we know or understand of the World

Many Americans still believe that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11 and that all Muslims are terrorists therefore all Iraqi lives have little meaning. Many Israelis believe that Israel belongs to the Jews and that the Palestinians must give back the land to any Jew that wants to return no matter how many generations and centuries have passed. Since the breakup of the USSR, Russia has been unwilling to allow Chechnya to make the same break that other countries have made and the majority of the Russian people have no understanding of what or why the Chechen's are fighting for. They themselves have never been allowed independence and cannot fathom what is happening.

Which comes to Americans who are now involved in a war in Iraq and prior to our invasion, few Americans could even find it on a map, few if any of our leaders to include the POTUS, our intelligence and military are capable of understanding the culture, the language nor the interactions between the various Arab nations. We are a Nation of diverse people and that has always been the base of our democracy yet when we are faced with something outside our scope or knowledge (limited as it is), we attempt to attack the unknown instead of attempting to understand it.

Why should we be surprised that children and families are dying throughout the world just because they want to be acknowledged and accepted for their differences and their needs. We have a two-party system in our democracy that no longer talks to each other, no longer willing to negotiate and debate, one-party domination of all Houses of government with little care for the people that they represent.

[HuckleB]

55. Indeed. Thanks for the fine post.

[lil-petunia]

96. you got that right.

our two party system is more system, than party. Here in Illinois, the thieves even decide how to split the plunder.

So few differences on policy and approach, yet, so much need for new voices.

WE do see, though what happens to a formerly honorable party, which freed the slaves, gave us the EPA and did other fine things, is hijacked by a small, intense, lying clan of neocons, ones who give truth and justice the short shrift and who care little but their own faulty plan for domination and power.

[hang a left]

45. Update

Armed Group Seizes Russian School; Talks Start
MORE

By Maria Golovnina
MOSCOW (Reuters) - A heavily armed gang seized up to 400 hostages at a Russian school near Chechnya Wednesday and threatened to kill 50 children for any member of their group killed, a senior local official said.

Itar-Tass news agency said negotiations had begun with the gang of up to 17 men and women who stormed into the secondary school in Beslan in North Ossetia province during a morning ceremony to mark the first day of the new school year.

The assault bore the signs of a Chechen rebel operation and was the latest in a recent spate of deadly attacks in Russia which have killed more than 100 people. As dusk fell there were no signs of any end to the siege around the low brick building.


edit: linky

[hang a left]

46. From Al Jazeera

Death toll rises in Russian hostage crisis


Wednesday 01 September 2004, 18:33 Makka Time, 15:33 GMT


Teachers, students and parents are among those taken captive



Seven people injured when an armed gang stormed into a school in southern Russia and took 200 children hostage, have died in hospital of their wounds.



The Russian Itar-Tass news agency, quoting hospital officials on Wednesday, said this brought the number of civilians killed in the hostage seizure in Beslan, North Ossetia province, to eight.

In addition, at least one rebel was killed in a gun battle with police in the early stages of the seizure.

Earlier, 15 pupils were released after regional Muslim leader Mufti Ruslan Valgatov entered the school to negotiate with the armed group.

According to Beslan officials, Valgatov was trying to establish contact with the armed group who have taken teachers, students and parents hostage.

Aljazeera had reported that the hostage-takers were refusing to speak to Valgatov and would only speak to government officials.



http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/F8018883-2C7E-43BE-97C2-4A43D5E90E1E.htm

[HuckleB]

50. BBC Analysis: Putin's permanent problem

Analysis: Putin's permanent problem

For more than four years now the word President Vladimir Putin has used about the situation in Chechnya is "normalisation".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3617782.stm

"He has reassured the Russian public that the conflict is virtually over, that his uncompromising tactic of no negotiations with pro-independence Chechen leaders has worked and that he needs no international presence in the troubled republic.

Although the Russian president maintains that this is an international problem - that Chechnya has become a front in the worldwide "war on terror" - he constantly rejects calls for a greater role for the United Nations or the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe there.

That claim was badly damaged by the seizure of the theatre by Chechen gunmen in Moscow in October 2002, when more than 129 theatregoers who had come to watch the Nord-Ost musical died. It was further hurt by the assassination earlier this year of pro-Moscow Chechen leader Akhmad Kadyrov.

Now "normalisation" lies in pieces as Mr Putin is facing the worst week of terrorism in his entire presidency. It looks increasingly likely that the destruction of two passenger planes over southern Russia last week was the work of Chechen suicide bombers.

..."

[HuckleB]

57. STOP HEINOUS ACTS BY RUSSIANS AND CHECHENS

STOP HEINOUS ACTS BY RUSSIANS AND CHECHENS

http://www.theoathbook.com/op-ed.php

"I am a Chechen doctor who treated many wounded and dying people -- Russian soldiers, Chechen fighters, but mainly innocent civilians -- during Russia's two recent wars with Chechnya. Like many others, I watched the recent hostage-taking horror in Moscow on television. I felt for the victims crammed into a theater auditorium and terrorized by Movsar Barayev and his followers. Along with most Chechens, I condemn this barbarous act, which is the latest atrocity in the brutal conflict that has raged since December 1994 when 300,000 Russian troops invaded Chechnya. In January 1999, I too was taken hostage by Movsar's uncle, the late Arbi Barayev, who condemned me to death in a makeshift Islamic court for treating Russians. The reason Barayev spared me was because he needed me to treat his wounded men. Arbi Barayev, like the hostage takers in Moscow, claimed to be a Muslim. In my eyes, and in the eyes of most Chechens, terrorism is an insult to our faith. Islam is a religion of peace, even if some fanatics have hijacked it to justify their evil deeds.

Tragically the hostage-taking in the theater fuels President Putin's effort to depict Chechens as Islamic extremists and will be another excuse to mount reprisals against us. If you believe the Russian media, Chechnya is a hotbed of terrorists funded by the terrorist organization Al Qaeda. This is a distortion of the facts. Moscow prevents both Russian and foreign journalists from going to Chechnya, so it is hard for the world to know the truth, which is that the vast majority of Chechens want nothing more than to be allowed to live their lives peacefully.

...

Each week dozens of Russian soldiers die in Chechen ambushes, and Chechen men routinely are abducted off the street to be ransomed off to their relatives or executed. This happens beyond the view of the rest of the world, but it is an international tragedy. Hostage taking is no way to resolve this conflict. Violence breeds violence. We need the international community to help bring an end to the bloodshed.

...

Unless steps are taken to end this barbarity through political negotiations, the killing of the innocent will continue. The reprisals by Russia have already started, and there may well be more desperate acts of terror, designed to draw international attention to this forgotten war. The circle of violence will continue unless a political resolution can be found. Unfortunately, the United States appears to have reached an understanding with Russia whereby the United States will no longer criticize the human rights abuses in Chechnya in return for Russia's support of the US battle against global terrorism and efforts to overthrow Saddam Hussein. Meanwhile, the innocent suffer."

http://www.theoathbook.com/op-ed.php

[HEyHEY]

61. Jesus, that is sick, those son of bitches

How do you deal with this kind of thing. Quote the Karan, maybe the part about killing children, even in wartime, being a sin?

[cowboykiller62]

64. Just follow Bushs lead

How? Well just look at what Bush did. I mean he wouldnt put up with this crap. Just put a bullet in their head. Only way you can deal with these people.

[HuckleB]

84. You're funny.

The Russians have put bullets in the heads of hundreds of thousands of Chechens, most of them innocent, and look where they are.

Yeah, follow Bush. :eyes: Oh my. What a joker.

[HEyHEY]

85. Doesn't matter

I knwo full well the terrible things russia has done to the cheychens such as the 30,000 shells a week on Grozny. BUt that doesn't excuse killing children. I don't care what they've done to you.

[HuckleB]

86. I didn't say it excused anything.

And what the Russians have done is far more than simply lob shells. For Pete's sake, they've put murderers, rapists and other criminals who were in prison in Chechnya as an adjunct military unit. And guess what they do to the people there. Why doesn't that story have a thousand plus hits on the Google and Yahoo news searches alone?

Putin should be on trial with Milosevic, but the world only gets half the story.

[HuckleB]

63. Reports (largely ignored by most news outlets) of Russian atrocities.

Russian atrocities in Chechnya detailed

http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0/45d2165b40636215c12568f20052f83c?OpenDocument

War Has No Rules for Russian Forces Battling Chechen Rebels

http://soldiertestimony.org/Russia/Document.2004-03-22.5243


No. There is no justification for the action at this school. However, it's amazing to see how widespread this story is compared to how underground the stories of the Chechen people facing torture and death at the hands of Russian troops have been.

[Junkdrawer]

65. Anyone else think Cheney and Dubya will take advantage of this?

:shrug:

[HuckleB]

70. They already are.

Besides, it's Bush and Dick's goofy war in Iraq that has kept the US quiet on the outrageous human rights abuses perpetrated by Putin's Russia upon the people of Chechnya. Now they've got more cover to keep quiet, especially since the press so conveniently focuses on anything done by Chechens but ignores the far more widespread and ghastly things done to them.

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

67. Reality check people!!!

Just from scanning the subject lines I can tell what so many of you are thinking is that Russia "deserves" these horrifying terrorist acts because of the war they are fighting in Chechnya. May I remind you people that we wouldn't even BE in Checnya again if not for CHECHEN attacks on Russian apartment buildings in 1999. Those Chechens struck first! and by the way NO nation "deserves" terrorist acts.
Let me get you people up to date on a history of the Chechen war. It started out as a freedom fight. That was the first one when the buffoon Yeltsin was still in power. But once Russian troops pulled out al-Qaida went in. What was once a freedom fight has now become sheer inhuman terrorism. Those demons who would take a school hostage, who would kill little kids, they aren't even human. No one who would even think of doing that is human.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: cry: cry:

P.S. all you people who made fun of me yesterday when I said I was scared of the Chechen terrorists, you aren't laughing now are you!

[HuckleB]

69. Sorry.

Your post doesn't respond to the reality of thought on this thread. And the apartment bombings are no justification for what Russia has done to Chechnya. Not even close. (Most Chechens abhorred that bombing, yet they all suffer the ridiculous wrath of Putin and Yeltsin's sick nonsense.) Oh, and nevermind that it WAS Russia that struck first, in 1994. So, yeah, a reality check is needed, but you'll need a mirror, my friend. The terrorized, the raped, the murdered, the disappeared Chechens -- numbering in the thousands and tens of thousands -- are very real, and these horrific things done to them by Russian soldiers are very real.

Putin and Yeltsin should be on trial with Milosevic right now. Alas, there is no justice in this world.

I would never admonish your fear of any terrorist. However, no Russian citizen is in anywhere near the danger that your average innocent Chechen is with Russian troops nearby.

And, yes, I condemn this act. It is horrific and unjustified. But don't try to justify Russia's actions in Chechnya, for they are as inhuman as it gets.

Goodbye.

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

72. typical.

I never once said I support the atrocities of the Russian army against the Chechens. But don't try to tell me it's just RUSSIA=BAD CHECHENS=GOOD. That's not how it is.

[HuckleB]

75. I didn't.

However, you used the apartment bombing to justify Russia's ongoing terrorism of the entirety of Chechnya. Please don't try to change your words after you've already written them.

If you can't actually respond to my actual post, why respond at all?

[MacCovern]

71. I agree with you Krasnaya!

It's no accident that the vast majority of armed conflict in the
world today involves aggressive Islamists. These Islamists kill
innocent civilians, threaten peace around the world, and now they
are threatening to kill HUNDREDS OF CHILDREN and it is time to
speak out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can only hope of a world one day that is free from the filth
and the stench of the radical Islamists!

[HuckleB]

73. Do you have any idea of what Russia has done to Chechnya?

It makes all the Chechen incidents of terror pale by comparison.

Please inform yourself before going off about something you clearly know very little about.

Thank you.

[LisaL]

76. Does anything excuse taking little kids hostage

and planning to kill them?
What did these children do to Chechnya?

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

78. thats what I'm trying to tell everyone

thank you

[HuckleB]

79. No.

You might want to read the board first, so you know what people actually think, rather than making outlandish assumptions.

[LisaL]

80. And you might want to re-read your own post

I wasn't replying to other people, I was replying to your post.

[HuckleB]

83. I have other posts on this board.

And that doesn't change the fact that you made assumptions based on my post that you can't make. You might have asked questions, but you chose to rant away instead, assuming how I thought rather than clarifying my actual thoughts.

And you didn't even take my post in context with the post it was a response to.

Put it all together, and you've got my response to you, which was very justified.

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

77. these are little kids!

To my knowledge, the Russian army, for all its atrocities against the Chechens, has never taken seven-year-olds hostage with suicide bombers. And let me say this nice and slow so maybe you can understand...
I
DO
NOT
SUPPORT
RUSSIAN ARMY
ATROCITIES.

But I don't think Chechen terrorists are much better.

[HuckleB]

81. Dupe.

[HuckleB]

82. Yeah, I know.

And I've already said ad nauseum how sick this act is.

However, I want to know why the world hears about everything done by Chechens and nothing done to them. Can you explain that to me? And can you show me past posts where you have condemned Russian atrocities without being pointed to do so? Your first post on this makes me wonder about your real thoughts on this.

The Russian army has killed one-year-olds in front of their pregnant mothers before killing the mothers. It has raped seven-year-old girls in front of their parents. And on and on and on. Don't try to mitigate the actions of Russia by comparing it to this act. They may not have done exactly this, but they have done many things just as sick, if not sicker, and they've done it on a scale far grander than any group of Chechen terrorists could imagine.

[TheLastMohican]

90. You talk about things you have no clue about

I was in Chechnya in the beginning of 90's not exactly a friendly place, the men were already carrying weapons. They threatened the Russian ethnic population with it and killed many civilians and lots of ethnic russians and ethnic chechens had to flee the region because of the unruly gangs with guns. The Chechen war started because the Russians refused to live with this shit and an unruly terroristic thugs running the region. Freedom fighting my arse, those are innocent kids we are talking about.
Before starting lecturing other members of the forum, figure it out how much you really know about it.

[HuckleB]

100. Thanks for the propaganda. You're not the only world traveler here.

And your post is complete baloney. I do know what I'm talking about on this issue. I've been to the area. I've studied the history at length, and I know many people from both Russia and Chechnya, and have discussed it at length.

If you don't have anything but a hackneyed claim to offer, why bother? You didn't offer anything to back up your anecdotal nonsense.

So whatever.

[Krasnaya Lastochka]

74. thank you

I can't tell you how glad I am that someone finally agrees with me. Everyone else either ridicules me or tells me that Russia deserves what they get. The Russian soldiers maybe...not the Russian people.

[Vladimir]

92. No one is justifying this attack

and certainly the kids (or Russia) do not deserve this. But neither do the thousands of Chechen children killed and orphaned during this war.

It is also to be noted that there are different strands to the Chechen resistance. I doubt Aslan Maskhadov has anything to do with this...

Russia should learn the lesson that Serbia learned in the 90s - however much your opponents may use terrorism, you cannot stop a people's desire for self-determination. Had we willingly given Kosovo independance in the mid-90s, perhaps there would be some Serbs living there outside of ghettoes now. It should pull all troops out of Chechnya, offer to pay for the rebuilding of Grozny, offer compensation for the families of victims and stop interfering in the politics of Chechnya. Then, if there are abuses against Russians still living in Chechnya, it would have every right to demand that the Chechen government put a stop to them.

[HuckleB]

87. "Militants a small minority in Chechnya"

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/9556303.htm

[Matilda]

88. Surely sanity and reason demand that Putin starts talking

to the Chechens. I haven't heard anything about pleas from other
world leaders or the U.N.

Sure, taking children hostage is very emotive, and Putin doesn't
want to be seen giving in to that, but he really has no right on
his side, and this macho "no-talk" business is just bullshit. If
the children die, I don't think the Russian people will forgive
him very quickly.

The world doesn't seem to be getting more civilized IMO, I think
we're regressing.

[Aidoneus]

91. The kids will get out of this ok

The Chechen kids that died when all of their schools were bombed won't be ok (and the difference between them is, that building is still standing), but there will not be any kids in this school harmed. Unless, of course, the place is lit up from the outside--unfortunately that tends to happen in these situations in the past.

Putin can't talk--macho bullshit is the centerpiece of his cult, despite all rational signs hinting towards the incredible catastrophe that it is, and the apparent impotence they have for preventing or even combatting these tendencies. I mean, they round up and torture anybody that can be found, but the slaves in turn still strike back with the same viciousness that they are routinely shown under the radar (that last part isn't news, however, so don't consider the details or the terrorists will win and the duct-tape won't be able to save you).

But I think these are Ingush fighters, actually. Apparently their first message outward had to do with fallout from the successful raid on the Russian occupyers in Nazran. What prompted this move by hundreds of Ingush mujahideen and a few token Chechen units for support (including Basayev himself, triumphantly filmed in the Interior Ministry itself) were fascist kidnapping raids by the Russian Interior Ministry against Ingush people. Hundreds of Ingush volunteers then moved to the Chechen foothills to be trained in order to defend themselves; the result was the successful June battles. Following this operation, many more people were kidnapped and are held hostage the Russian regime's Ingush Interior Ministry and the first demand made with respect to this current operation in Beslan is for their release.

It hasn't been said, but there is a lot of bad blood between Ingush & Ossets and that may be a big driving force behind this event . A year or so before Chechnya was completely flattened the first time around, there was an ethnic cleansing operation of Ingush from lands of theirs ruled by the Russian "North Ossetian Republic". The Russians backed the Ossets, who were their wedge against the North Caucasian Islamic Resistance front to the colonialist invaders dating back to Tsarist times and to this day, and thousands of Ingush were driven out in the war.

The trouble with the N.Caucasus area is that there are an extremely large amount of distinct peoples--probably the most diverse region in all of the world for its size--, and a small space claimed by pretty much all of them. The Ingush, brothers of the Chechen people and between the two forming a unique culture, are a small nation and were thus easily pushed around. I think the idea was twofold--fuck over the Muslim Ingush and keep them weak, and in the process try to goad Chechen President Dudayev to come to their aid and trapping him into a war, before the collision finally occured later the next year (on the side, there were a ton of attempts at this before the fire finally got its spark).

[Aidoneus]

93. a few somewhat surreal blips, perhaps worth noting

few people are being let in. A local mufti was allowed in to talk, he left with some hostages. A dozen were let go for no real reason, though the press is mistakenly claiming that they had escaped.

More recently the school's doctor was let in at the request of those inside holding the explosives, in order to arrange deliveries of food & water for the kids. They're holding bombs and guns over their heads, but still don't want them to get dehydrated.. Like the others, a most bizarre & discordant showing of concern and vicious verbal threats at the same time. Provided that the Spetsnaz don't do the heavy lifting on the "negotiating" front, the kids will come out ok, even though the 17 will probably die.

As for the makeup of the group, there are some misleading claims that should be corrected. From what I am told more recently than what I had said above, this small unit is made up of Ingush & Ossetians, rather than Chechens. They have no plans to actually blow the place up, despite what is said. If they did, it would have been done already. That has been the case in comperable matters, but this time it may be different. I ... don't know, really.

[Matilda]

95. You know a great deal more about them than I do.

Thanks for the info.

I guess though that if they want their people released, they're not
going to do anything to the children yet, but what if they don't
get what they want? They most likely would figure they're dead
anyway, so if they feel they have nothing to lose, take a few
Russians with them.

But I am so against the Chechens being forced to remain part of
Russia if they don't want to. If they'd been allowed to form their
own state, trade deals could have been done, etc., and quite
possibly Al Q'eda wouldn't have got a foot in the door.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuckleB]

101. More pure propaganda.

Out of context. And without a true knowledge of the history.

Nevermind a post filled with racist nonsense.

:eyes:

[Radius]

98. Except

the kids they already shot that is. 17year old took an ak round in the back.

I don't think this will come out well at all. These people are fundies and already consider themselves dead. They could have attacked other soft targets but choose a school.

No moral equivication, kidnapping kids is bad. These people regardless of motivation are slime and will I personally hope someone figures out a way to kill them without hurting their hostages. Hopefully anyperson who gave them money or support will be purged.

Islam is the uniting factor with all of them, it is being downplayed in the MSM but they are fundies.

[russian33]

103. it wasn't the school doctor,

it was the doctor from Moscow (i believe), who participated in Nord-Ost hostage stand-off

[Aidoneus]

109. Right, they're talking to Roshal (apparently requested by name?)

but I think he came later. This is a somewhat minor point, but I can't find the reference to what I'm referring to. IOL has updated with newer articles, and Kavkaz, where I read the earlier version of the former, is down right now. I don't know whether that's because of DDOS 'cyberterror' or just the server hammered with the added attention; a combination of both usually take down the server whenever some big event happens.

[GRClarkesq]

99. Russian military up to task of freeing hostages?

I am always concerned when I see this situation in Russia. The Russian military/police seem to be a level of quality lower in training/equipment than western military/police.

Just my impression, if anyone has more information that would be great.

[Radius]

105. Russia

Has highly trained Delta force type operators and FSB has a tactical response unit(s) like fbi's HRT team.

[LibLabUK]

106. Hmm...

"The Russian military/police seem to be a level of quality lower in training/equipment than western military/police."

The Russian Spetznaz are one of the world's elite military units, they're on a par with the UK's SAS and the US's Delta Force.

[HuckleB]

107. They have forces just as highly trained as we have.

And those are likely the forces dealing with this situation.

Unfortunately, they also have forces with little training, made up mostly of convicts who got early release to join up. They are supposed to do things like guard duty and road checks, but they end up doing a great deal of nasty work, like disappearances, murders and rapes (often of children, and often in front of their parents).

So it all depends upon which force is in question.

[realcountrymusic]

108. No way

Russian special forces are as good as ours and the Israelis' -- making them the best (i.e., most lethal and effective) in the world. When you are facing people willing to blow themselves up to make a statement, you almost cannot "win" the fight.

While I'm at it, let me weigh in on the rather sad moral argument unfolding in this thread.

Killing or abusing children is always wrong. Killing anyone is wrong, but killing children is more wrong. This has nothing to do with whether the Russians or the Chechens are more victimized. As the Israeli/Palestinian conflict demonstrates, we can have the moral argument (on immoral, self-justifying grounds) until hell freezes over while innocent people on BOTH sides keep dying.

The only way forward, as history shows, is to stop the cycle of violence and retribution. Someone has to be brave enough to do it. Oh, there is another way -- total genocidal annihiliation of the "enemy" so that no one remains to carry a grudge.

I think most Chechen people are not likely to sympathize with this group of terrorists, in their hearts, though they are traumatized enough that they might on the surface. I think most Russian people would decry the violence done in their names to the people of Chechnya if they thought past the trauma of the terrrorist threat. I want to believe the same of most Israelis and Palestinians, and most Americans and most Afghanis. Come on, let's not be or even support the ideological hate-mongers who make this world such a miserable place to be a child. A pox on all the killers, our own included.

RCM

[Aidoneus]

110. FSB speculation.. suggests Ingush rather than Chechens

http://www.gazeta.ru/2004/09/ 01/last132074.shtml?fromexport

16:54 - 17:26 FSB: Boyeviks came from the village of Khurikau.

As reported to Gazeta ru's correspondent a representative of the FSB,
these boyeviks came from the bordering Ingushetia village of Khurikau
of the Mozdok district of North Ossetia, where predominantly Ingush
population had been living.

Gazeta ru

from: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chechnya-sl/message/39774

that goes along with what I suspected in two posts above.