Marines dead in Fallujah ambush

[LynnTheDem]

AT LEAST six US marines were killed and several others wounded today in an attack on a military convoy near the militant Iraqi stronghold of Fallujah, witnesses and US military sources said.

Reporters on the ground, quoting witnesses to the ambush in the town of Saqlawiya on the northern outskirts of Fallujah, said at least six marines were killed and eight wounded.

US military sources confirmed the toll and said more casualties were feared.

http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,10687649%255E1702,00.html

[Florida_Geek]

1. The Iraq fighters are getting smarter

Not good for the soldiers that asswipe put in harms way.

[PA Democrat]

45. AP reporting that total US deaths now stand at 985

How can any thinking American give Bush good marks for what he has done in Iraq?

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040906/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_blast_10

[PCIntern]

2. So far no reports of this on Cable news

which I've seen - Fox, MSNBC or CNN. I've been watching for some time and they're just joking around and talking about Frances the talking hurricane.

[LynnTheDem]

4. Why would they bother reporting

on something most Americans don't give a shit about???

bush rushed our troops to preemptive strike to spread democracy against a future threat...SHORT ON RIFLES AND AMMO AND FOOD AND WATER AND bloody fcking etcetera...

And most Americans DO NOT CARE.

They ONLY care that the troops BLEED ENOUGH or lose ALL FOUR LIMBS; otherwise the troops will be MOCKED and RIDICULED for their "scratches".

[Judi Lynn]

7. Losing limbs isn't good enough for veterans who happen to be Democrats

like Max Cleland. He was mocked, ridiculed, and savaged by the Saxby Chambliss campaign, and the right-wing attacks persist to this day.

He has been attacked for going to Texas to deliver a message for Kerry to _Bush's hide-out.

[LynnTheDem]

10. Ahhh but Cleland...

only lost THREE LIMBS!

That's why troops must ensure they lose ALL FOUR limbs.

[Mokito]

91. Of course losing limbs isn't good enough

Obviously, only soldiers who died for their country have shown enough valor to be a future democratic politician without their record being questioned and ridiculed.</sarcasm>

[Skittles]

44. you are correct Lynn

When I bring up the subject of US troop casualties to my coworkers, they just don't want to hear it. They really, really don't care.

[NeoConsSuck]

47. Skittles, you have it correct also..

I was talking to a repuke and she said, 'Well, think of how many people die everyday in car accidents'.

Her son is joining the Guard soon. Maybe I'll express my relief that soon he will not have to drive on USA streets.

[quaoar]

57. The operative word there is 'accident'

The Marines in Fallujah were not killed in an accident.

[Skittles]

145. it is the very idea

that they try to rationalize needless, senseless deaths of young soldiers IN COMBAT - it's just unbelieveable. I do not know what has happened to this country.

[Halliburton]

43. Email a few networks...

Tell them that rain is not more important than the deaths of seven troops.

CBS News: [e-mail]
NBC News: [e-mail]
ABC News: http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/WorldNewsTonight/WNT_newemail_form.html

[progressivebydesign]

58. Here's the Yahoo link. It's not good. 7 Marines killed.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040906/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=716


This is tremendously sad.. as are all the deaths in Iraq.Seven more families, devastated. For what?

This was a car bomb. We have succeeded in bringing terrorism to Iraq, and it's being used against our troops. Have they been trained to fight that type of enemy?

[reprobate]

133. Cali, you CAN'T fight that kind of enemy. No one has ever succeeded

A conventional occupying force has never succeeded in besting a guerilla force when the guerilla force has the support of the population. Sorry, only one has. The nazis of germany has a quite successful strategy. The simply burned the village and killed all the villagers when someone in it was suspected of collaberation. Almost what we are doing, huh?

[Judi Lynn]

3. Same situation reported by the BBC

Last Updated: Monday, 6 September, 2004, 10:12 GMT 11:12 UK



US soldiers killed in Iraq ambush


A number of US soldiers have been killed in an ambush on a military convoy on the outskirts of Falluja in Iraq, a US military official says.
One report suggests up to six troops were killed and several more were hurt in what may have been a car bombing.

Falluja, 65km (40 miles) west of Baghdad, has witnessed some of the strongest resistance to US-led forces.
(snip/...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3630966.stm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As PCIntern mentioned, it's sad that our own tv cable news networks won't lower themselves to actually cover the goddamned news stories.

[PCIntern]

6. Fox Morons

just said that the upside to this hurricane was all the employment for the cleanup. The poor asshole they were interviewing stammered his way out saying that they'd rather not have the disaster in the first place.


Hey, no shit.

Maybe if the Fox Network went out of business, it would give all the real estate agents a chance to rent their property in NYC. that's the ticket...

[theoceansnerves]

8. did they actually say that ?!

an upside to a hurricane?!

[PCIntern]

13. Yes

stinking rotten creeps - real fascism at work. Real low-lifes.

[TahitiNut]

52. They can't permit that kind of talk ...

... since Smirky McFlyshit has already claimed the hurricanes caused job losses. Of course, he also claimed the "Wo(s)T" and 9/11 caused job lossses, too. Such claims are untethered to any kind of reality, of course - but good little reichbots on Pox Nooz aren't allowed to look behind that curtain.

[VolcanoJen]

5. Six Marines???

Is that enough to blow Thunderstorm Frances off the front pages?

God, we owe them so much more than what they're getting. :-(

[Judi Lynn]

11. That Golf Cart Bush face icon is just the best! He never looked better.n/t

[VolcanoJen]

16. Hey! You recognized it from the G8!

Good show! I made it myself. :D

[leftchick]

9. msrnc did not touch this news this morning...

cnn barely mentioned it for about 15 seconds... KKKarls faxes are working overtime... :(

[0007]

19. It sure appears that the White House dictates to the cable

networks, doesn't it?

[PCIntern]

12. Is it just me

or is there a complete disconnect within America and loss of sensitivity to anything and everything? Even this horrible business with the schoolkids and the parents in Russia - it's like no one cares anymore about anything after 9/11's process. It reminds me of what the Blitz survivors used to sound like - they'd seen it 'all' so you couldn't follow the act. Many were just plain cold to others' tragedies. We're really jaded and horrendously uncaring.

Maybe the country deserves Bush and Co. - maybe we just aren't any good as a whole - I'm not referring to those of us who expect better, but to the people as a whole. How can anyone explain how the middle class and lower class Americans be persuaded to vote in diametric opposition to their own interests?

[LynnTheDem]

14. Soon on US tv

We'll have 'Running Man' for real.

It isn't just you; Americans don't see the blood and they don't see the splattered brain matter and they don't see or hear people die screaming. So they don't care.

It's not their kids laying on the ground screaming as they die.

[PCIntern]

15. Lynn

It STILL is not on any of the 3 cable nets as far as I can see...unbelievable.

[PCIntern]

18. FINALLY

CNN - perhaps as many as 8 servicemen

[suegeo]

49. The republican party has made their members crazed

Right-wing fanatical Americans are persuaded to act against their own interest because Bush is a Christian and he is a Republican.

The media, the republican party, and the fundamentalist churches have convinced them that they are the party of god, and the rest of us are the dirty enemy.

In my opinion, they are insane, they are scary, and they could quickly become a threat to me, as I am not part of their group.

[Ilsa]

50. I know people on another board "crying" about the loss

of innocent life in Breslan, but said of the dead children of Iraq, "Sacrifices are necessary to bring freedom." Their frigidity in the face of senseless killing is beyond arguing with.

They rejoice that the terrorism isn't at their backdoor, and thrilled that we've liberated people from Saddam, but fail to see the hypocrisy that we have brought terrorism to the Iraqis' backdoor to replace Saddam's.

[leftchick]

17. OMG... Look how they are trying to FUDGE the numbers of DEAD!!

I was search in Yahoo for this story and found it under this headline..
Former Saddam Deputy Arrested in Iraq !!!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040906/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=716

short mention of the attack on the marines...


<snip>
Also Monday, a massive car bomb exploded on the outskirts of Fallujah killing and wounding several U.S. Marines, a U.S. military official said on condition of anonymity.


The blast sent the engine from the vehicle used in the bombing flying "a good distance" from the site, a military official said.


Wounded troops were already being treated, the official said.


Then this at the end...

<snip>In other violence, a mortar barrage Sunday evening hit a U.S. base on the western edge of Baghdad, killing two U.S. soldiers and wounding 16 others, one critically, Maj. Richard Spiegel of the Army's 13th Corps Support Command said.

The soldiers killed and wounded all belonged to the 13th Corps Support, which oversees distribution of fuel, food and water to U.S. forces. As of Friday, 976 U.S. service members have died since the beginning of military operations in Iraq in March 2003, according to the Defense Department.

SO!.. 2 soldiers dead Sunday night, 6 dead Monday so far last I knew it was 982 dead as of Saturday night. Where the hell are they coming up with 976?! Did they stop the counter last week?

:grr:

[lebkuchen]

22. It will be headline news in tomorrow's Stars and Stripes

Today's Stripes headline (posted elsewhere)

August's combat injury toll highest since war began: Month binrgs about 1,100 wounded US troops in Iraq

Generals at the Pentagon hate Bush. They're not going to let today's attack go unnoticed.

[leftchick]

25. can they really do anything about the lack of media coverage....

and downright obfuscation by the media? I am getting pretty damn angry about this!

[lostnfound]

36. Yes, the CNN counter is going backwards.

Karl Rove has figured how to hack their database.

We are using the CNN counter to determine the date of our candlelight memorial for 1000 soldiers in Houston. Our website showed the CNN count as of 6 days ago, 8-31-04, at 981; the CNN site now shows 979. Yesterday I was told by a memorial organizer that the number was at 986, and I'm pretty sure that was from the CNN site.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/2004.09.html

[lostnfound]

59. CNN is now at 993.

Giving them the benefit of the doubt, maybe it was just a temporary side-effect of being in the process of updating the numbers.

[leftchick]

63. 993!!!! omg...

This is so sad... Bring them home.... :cry:

[KeepItReal]

20. Frickin CNN says "8 Americans killed in car bombing"

NO MENTION THAT THEY WERE MARINES AND THAT IT WAS AN AMBUSH!!!

[xchrom]

21. and the hits just keep on comin

republicans are grotesque -- as grotesque as all the dead and wounded in iraq.

[VolcanoJen]

23. Reuters: Blast In Iraq's Falluja, Reports of U.S. Casualties

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6158160

Mon Sep 6, 2004 06:46 AM ET

FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - Attackers targeted a U.S. convoy with a blast near the Iraqi city of Falluja on Monday, the U.S. military said, and witnesses said as many as eight Americans were killed or wounded.

The U.S. military had no immediate information on casualties.

U.S. and Iraqi forces do not have control of Falluja, a center of the anti-U.S. insurgency in Iraq, about 32 miles west of Baghdad.

As many as eight Americans were killed or wounded? Could they be more vague?

[0007]

24. Babak Dehghanpisheh, Newsweek Correspondent

is reporting the Marine deaths on Washington Journal.

The Iraqi Army is increasing in size accordingly.

[Flagg]

26. "BRING' EM ON", cried the AWOL chimp

[Guaranteed]

27. Jesus...and this isn't on the news?

WTF?

[Guaranteed]

29. Someone should try out the media blaster with this one...nt

[rfkrocks]

28. Our media is a international joke

No reports from Iraq ever-the soldiers are expendable-America -sleeping through her son's funeral

[leftchick]

30. AFP: possibly more than 6 dead.... and photo of the scene...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1504&ncid=1504&e=3&u=/afp/20040906/ts_afp/iraq_us_toll_040906101941

FALLUJAH, Iraq (AFP) - At least six US marines were killed and several others wounded in an attack on a military convoy near the militant Iraqi stronghold of Fallujah, witnesses and US military sources revealed.

·An AFP correspondent on the ground, quoting witnesses to the ambush in the town of Saqlawiya on the northern outskirts of Fallujah, said at least six marines were killed and eight wounded.


US military sources confirmed the toll and said more casualties were feared.




U.S. soldiers collect the bodies of their colleagues, following Iraqi guerrillas attack near the town of Falluja, September 6, 2004. Attackers targeted a U.S. convoy with a blast near the Iraqi city of Falluja on Monday, the U.S. military said, and witnesses said several troops were killed or wounded. REUTERS/Mohammed Khodor BEST QUALITY AVAILABLE

[Guaranteed]

31. I noticed Bush's approval numbers, according to the BS poll

CNN's been using for days, now, were at 55%....

This should help to take care of that. Just a little reminder.

[VolcanoJen]

34. Great link, leftchick.

This is one to be rated, and media-blasted, since the cable networks are still busy fretting over the Thunderstorm of the Century.

[leftchick]

35. Hi Jen!

Sadly, even if there was not a big storm it would be something else. For cripes sakes they are actually spending time on Bill Clinton's surgery! Like they actually care! They are being blast-faxed by KKKarl no doubt every hour to keep the Bad News Out!

:grr:

[Snellius]

32. We can't be bothered.We're busy being afraid of a hurricane.

This country is full of scared, whiny wimps that will give up everything -- their rights, their health, their economic security, even the truth -- to anyone that promises to protect them from their fear.

[Bunny]

33. MSNBC now saying seven Marines killed.

Dear God, when will this end?

[VolcanoJen]

38. MSNBC.com link: 7 US Marines Killed in Iraq Car Bombing

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5911852/

Excerpt:

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A massive car bomb exploded on the outskirts of Fallujah on Monday, killing seven U.S. Marines and wounding several others, a U.S. military official said.

The strength of the blast sent the engine from the vehicle used in the bombing flying "a good distance" from the site, a military official said on condition of anonymity.

Wounded troops were being treated Monday afternoon, the official said.

Further details were not immediately available.

[VolcanoJen]

37. Latest AP Update with more details; still says "several US Marines"

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/3708749/detail.html

Excerpt:

UPDATED: 7:54 am EDT September 6, 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Several U.S. Marines have been killed or wounded in a massive car-bomb explosion Monday on the outskirts of the Iraqi city of Fallujah.

A military spokesman in Baghdad said he was waiting for casualty figures from Marines -- who control the region west of the capital -- along with an account of exactly what happened.

One official said the force of the blast hurled the vehicle's engine a "good distance."

[VolcanoJen]

39. Latest AP Update Confirms: Car Bomb Near Fallujah Kills 7 Marines

15 US soldiers have now lost their lives in Iraq in September.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040906/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_blast_10

[Divernan]

41. Pictures ARE worth a thousand words - foreign news coverage

I notice your original news source was Australian, and it stated US military confirmed the deaths. In later sources, US military would not yet confirm. But the US military knew from the getgo how many marines were instantly killed.

I was recently out of the US and watched BBC news and eurotelevision. The actual videos of massive, "towering inferno" oil field fires in Iraq, and the scenes of car bomb blasts and burned bodies shocked the hell out of me. I hadn't seen anything like these on US television or in the papers. We've gotten so used to minimalist news coverage here in the states that I somehow forgot the powerful video/film we say nightly on the news during the Vietnam war. No wonder the corporate controlled media don't SHOW us what's happening.

[Maeve]

48. 993 Americans so far

15 in six days--I swear, they must have gone to ground during the convention, but the count goes on...

[TahitiNut]

53. Easily over 1,000 by 9/11.

:grr:

[UpInArms]

40. from the Baltimore Sun

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-fallujah0906,1,7295496.story?coll=bal-nationworld-headlines

excerpt:

Army Maj. John Wagner, a military spokesman in Baghdad, said he was still waiting for an official account from the U.S. Marines of the troops killed and wounded in the blast. Most of the territory west of Baghdad is under control of the U.S. Marines.

U.S. forces have not patrolled inside Fallujah since April, when U.S. Marines ended a three-week siege. The city has since fallen into the hands of insurgents who have used it as a base to manufacture car bombs and launch attacks on U.S. and Iraqi government forces.

The U.S. military has retaliated by launching several air strikes on insurgent safe houses in the city.

No words....

:cry:

[leftchick]

42. Well look out innocent civillians of Falluja.....

the ugly cycle of violence continues. I guarentee the US will be bombing the hell out of "insurgent safehouses" this evening. When the hell will this ever end... :(

[wrang_wrang]

66. Why do they hate us?

A U.S. airstrike targeting an alleged militant safehouse in Fallujah killed some 17 people including three children, according to doctors and accounts from the scene of the blast, and angry crowds gathered to mourn the victims and denounce the United States.

"There is only one God, Allah!" crowds chanted at the Fallujah General Hospital, where the bombing casualties were brought before dawn Thursday. A blanket filled with body parts could be seen lying on the ground, while relatives loaded corpses into the back of a pickup truck for burial.

"It is because of the Americans," one man shouted.

[alcuno]

46. 1/2 hour of flipping around cable and not one word about it.

More horror in Iraq. May they all find peace with God.

[enough]

51. Kick

So many families newly in hell.

[Richardson08]

54. The Iraqi interim govt sucks

This is from a Reuters story

A day after several Iraqi officials reported the capture of Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, who was sixth on a U.S. list of the 55 most wanted members of Saddam's regime and had a $10 million price on his head, the government had to make an embarrassing climbdown and say he had not been caught after all.

"The person that has been arrested, after appropriate medical tests, was not al-Douri but somebody related to him, who is also wanted by the state," the Interior Ministry said.

The confusion raised questions about the effectiveness and unity of Iraq's interim government as it prepares for national elections in January and tries to crush a stubborn insurgency and tackle a wave of kidnappings.

Mustafa Alani, senior consultant at the Dubai-based Gulf Research Center, said the confusion stemmed from a lack of collective leadership in the government, which is made up of members of several ethnic, religious and political groups.

"For Iraqis, it must have a psychologically negative effect on the credibility of the government," he said
The two ministers gave a detailed account of how Ibrahim had been captured after a battle in which 150 of his followers were killed or captured when they tried to thwart his arrest.
But the regional National Guard commander in Tikrit, and U.S. forces in the area, said they knew nothing about any such battle and had no information on Ibrahim's capture.

There was no immediate explanation from the government on how so many top officials had been wrong on the reported capture. It was the second time the government has had to make a major retraction since it took over formal sovereignty in June.

Last month the government said police had entered a shrine in Najaf without a shot being fired to recapture it from rebel Shi'ite militiamen holed up inside. The report turned out to be false and the uprising in Najaf did not end until the following week, when Iraq's most revered cleric brokered a peace deal.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6159575&pageNumber=1

This is the group our government is counting on to bring change to Iraq.Oh boy!!!We are so doomed!!!

[shadu]

55. What kind of car bomb was this?

The insurgents are using the city as a base to 'manufacture
car bombs.'

I wonder what was in it and how it was detonated?
Did they use a timer, do they have wireless?
How did it go undetected?

[bemildred]

56. al Jazeera says it was two IEDs, waiting for clarification.

Two explosive devices detonated as a multi-vehicle convoy
passed through the area," journalist Abu Bakr al-Dulaimi said,
adding that two Humvees were destroyed in the blasts.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79A11113-FB79-494C-85CA-BE8C9CA01C5A.htm

[shadu]

61. Car bombs detonated via wireless: the invisible enemy

It takes just a wee bit of primitive technology to
detonate via wireless.

[bemildred]

62. Garage Door Openers I hear work fine ... nt

[shadu]

64. why don't Iraqis use wireless detonation more often?

US soldiers cruising thru areas like Fallujah
are easy pickings.

[bemildred]

67. You'd have to ask them.

I doubt we know much about those sort of details.

The military would not want information about what works
and what does not bandied about, and the resistance either
I would expect.

I did read once that convoys and patrols use various kinds
of sensors to detect IEDs etc., so I expect there is a sort
of arms race going on between the bombers and the bombees.

A better question is what are the patrols FOR? The convoys
I can see, you gotta have supplies, but why patrol an area
you admit you do not control? It just exposes your troops.

I have two theories: low-hanging fruit and just-for-show.
The low-hanging-fruit version is that they are intended to incite
attacks so the attackers can be counter-attacked and killed.
So they are bait. The just-for-show version is that they are
intended as demonstration that we do have some control, or that
we have not been run off yet, or that the puppet government
cannot be ignored.

[smaug]

110. In Viet Nam,

this sort of patrolling was referred to as "trolling the bait."

Sheesh. The Bushevik-Saudi administration wouldn't serve, but they'll sacrifice US troops for show.

What a sick bunch of bastards. How anyone can think that Rethugs are Christians and patriots is beyond me.

[The_Casual_Observer]

105. Because soldiers don't do any "cruising" thru

Fallujah. In case you hadn't heard, Fallujah is one of the "No Go"
regions in Iraq. They just got too close this time.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

123. They DO use it a lot. Apparently car bombs set off by cell phones

and the like are one of the favorite weapons. I'm sure that for each one that works, like this last one, there are many that do not or may be detected. In a big country of millions where the U.S. is the occupier though, there's just no way to cover all of the bases, so these things are going to continue to happen.

They can capture all the guys who are currently doing this, but so long as they are blowing up safe houses with kids and torturing people in Abu Ghraib, there will be 10 more cell phone bombers to replace the ones captured and killed.

If the U.S. committed wholesale genocide on the Iraqi people and nailed everyone up on crosses or something then maybe the populace would be cowed enough that some imperial control a la Rome could be maintained for a while. But that would not bode well for the long term stability of the U.S. as a world empire as the world would rise up at some point and the whole thing would end in a shambles of bloody coup/assasinations. That's really why it's a lose-lose at this point and we will simply have to get out, and sooner would be better than later.

[Aidoneus]

68. what is interesting about these..

is that they're often the enemy's own shells used against their patrols like this. Left-over bombs that were dropped from the air but didn't go off, or tank/artillery shells lying around, are rigged up with a small radio-detonated grenade. A lot of the "IED" acts are like this. To the best of my knowledge, the exact technique was pioneered first by the Chechen resistance years ago before it was passed on to others (though I doubt it can be called completely original, as using the enemy's "strengths" against it is a basic premise of fighting any war).

[Radius]

70. Wrong

They are using saddams unused soviet era arty and loose plastic explosives. Remember the sarin shell they popped by accident?

Your technique was used in vietnam where we dropped lots of ordinance from b-52's 100,000 lbs at a time.

It was used in ww1 as well.

[DrWeird]

73. The sarin shell? I remember them reporting it.

Do you remember when they later reported it was a false alarm and never contained sarin?

[Radius]

109. No

it contained unmixed sarin precursors. Gas shells are designed to arm when fired by the spinning effect of firing the shell down a rifled tube. The IED exploded the shell without mixing the components of the gas shell. People were treated with atropine and suffered low level symptoms of exposure to organo phosphate chemicals. The shell was unmarked and was an old leftover from the Iran/Iraq war.

They are using arty shells and a boost charge for IEDs. They grabbed the "wrong" shell was the consensus.

There was no retraction.

[Aidoneus]

113. nevermind

<edited out for now.>

[shadu]

74. I didn't know that

I thought the Iraqis had plenty of bombs and bomb parts squirreled away.
Interesting that they have done so much with so little.

[Radius]

79. Two guys

Blew up a federal building with a Ryder truck, diesel fuel and fertalizer. Nothing amazing about it.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

60. Unfortunately, reporting bad news from Iraq is Anti American and

unpatriotic when reported by broadcast news stations. In fact, anything bad said about war in general falls into that description as well.

[Aidoneus]

65. After acting cowardly, bombing Fallujah from the air for weeks,

the Marines get a reminder of why they never step into the city anymore. In the interest of preserving life, they should not require another demonstration... but, that is not considered as any top interest by the occupation leaders, so this will probably happen over and over yet still and the cowardly bombing from the skies will be ramped up, rather than the logical act of ending both.

[Radius]

69. Cowardly?

How about a cowardly artillery strike. Or cowardly machine gun fire. Or a cowardly sniper who fires a single bullet and kills someone. Where does cowardly stop?

The marines COULD raid that city and shoot any thing that moves with armor support, that would kill lots of people. The air force COULD fly 20 b-52's over an flatten the city they don't, that would kill more.

Just saying it is easy to call someone a coward behind a terminal.

Those marines were someones kids.

[DrWeird]

72. The whole war is cowardly.

The biggest cowards of them all are the ones who support it from behind a computer.

[shadu]

76. How true

Those are the true gutless wonders

[Radius]

77. Gee

Did I say is supported it? I'm just saying I'm an American, I'm not going to call an American soldier a coward period, unless he is a criminal. I will not refer to Americans as the enemy, I will not celebrate their deaths.

By your logic anyone who does not support and sits behind a pc is a coward to. Guess you haven't hit logic 101 yet?

[shadu]

80. I only label the US the enemy when we are the enemy - like now

Jingoism destroys humanism.

[DrWeird]

81. Uh, no...

By my logic anybody who supports the war and sits behind a computer is a coward. I'm fairly good with logic, but I haven't had any advanced courses. So if you'd kindly point how to get from what I said to what you said I'd really appreciate it.

"Did I say is supported it?"

Actually, I haven't seen you say you support it. What I have seen is you defend nearly everything about the war the couple of weeks you've been here. In fact, you really go out of your way to defend the indefensible. So, being honest, you in fact support the war, regardless of what you might say to the contrary. So technically, you support the war, you obviously are behind a computer, and I stand by my original statement. So I'll let you, with your advanced degrees in logic, put two and two together.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

95. I'm still not following you.

I made the statement:

"People who support the war from behind computers are cowards." (i.e., chickenhawks)

By what logic does that become:

"People who are against the war from behind computers are cowards."

It's a bit like saying:

Statement:

"All elephants have long trunks."

Therefore:

"All donkeys have long trunks."

Show me how to put that nut and that bolt together, please.

[Radius]

98. one question

How is support and dissent from behind a pc different?

[DrWeird]

100. Oh, I see the problem.

You see, the word "dissent" is the opposite of the word "support."

Any other questions?

[Radius]

102. Dodge

Dissent, disagree, do not support opposite of support, endorse. opinions protected speech.

Not the same as action, a physical act of promotion or counter act against the war.

Feel like answering my question now? We can argue about the definition of is if you like.

[DrWeird]

104. Not a dodge. Logic 101. Nuts and bolts.

If you're going to play games don't whine when you lose.

As for the point: do you understand what the term "chickenhawk" means?

Do you honestly not see how it's cowardly to send people to fight and die in a senseless war which you support but are unwilling to fight and die for?

Have you deluded yourself so badly you can't make sense of a simple thing like this?

[Radius]

111. Dodge again

I've stated my position and you are calling me a liar. I do not support the war. I do feel sorry for our soldiers and the civillians being killed. You are the one slipping the scope here.

You made a statement that is logically unsound. Cowardly to support the war if you don't fight. So it is cowardly to support the death penalty if you dont push the plunger, etc.

A persons feelings of support or disagreement with the war have no effect on the war its self. Action, voting, protesting do. Thought Vs Action. You are failing to grasp the difference.

You can answer my question or not. your call. You can cut the ad hominem bs and answer the question or I will stop responding to you and wait for you to grow up and gain the mental ability to argue a point validly.

Got shit to do that beats sitting behind a PC but will be back to check your response.

[DrWeird]

112. You keep saying I'm logically unsound.

But you can't seem to back that up. So fill in the blank:

"People who support the war should go and fight."

therefore:

"People who oppose the war should..."

Voting and protesting? Done. So when are you shipping off?

As for the DP, anybody who supports it should be willing to push the plunger. If they don't, they'd be cowards, wouldn't they?

[Radius]

115. Red Herring

Still didn't answer the question. I stated my position. Read.

I DO NOT SUPPORT THE WAR. I DO NOT CONSIDER OUR TROOPS THE ENEMY.

You are doing everything but answering my question.

[DrWeird]

118. If you don't support the war why do you keep defending it?

I'll answer your question when you answer mine. What was the logical flaw? Also, what was your question again?

[Radius]

121. Done

Game, set, match. See Gotcha. Comparing unlike things.

I respect your opinion on the war. Mine is not far off. I just don't see out people as the enemy. I never will. That is a thought, BTW. It worked its self while I was planting a maple tree, an action.

[DrWeird]

136. So you agree that I've won?

Because you sure haven't. As seen from a neutral third observer this little debate doesn't exactly go in your favor.

You still haven't answered any of my questions, btw.

"I just don't see out people as the enemy."

Ah, the old "you're either with us or you're against us" argument.

[Radius]

119. Gotcha

"People who support the war should go and fight."
Women who support roe v wade

therefore:

"People who oppose the war should blow up the pentagon, shoot the president, etc"

should have abortions.

You highlight your own fallacy. You are dished, as they say.

You fail to seperate Ideas and Actions. Simply put apples and oranges.

Try this on someone who does support the war is not a combatant and they will eat your lunch.


Regretfully most people who are exposed to logic learn it from binary logic used in computing. Unless you study philosophy you do not understand it.

[DrWeird]

135. Got me? Not really.

Roe vs. Wade was about supporting women's rights to choose.

Whereas supporting the war isn't about supporting the right to fight the war, it's about supporting the war itself.

Talk about red herrings and dodging.

[Radius]

137. I'm Done

I dissected your argument.

If a supporter must take action and fight a non supporter must action to stop.

I do not support it.

But if I did and have to go fight you have to stay here and destroy the war machine. You pay your taxes?

Your concept of free thought is disturbing.

Your argument is not viable. Actions and Ideas are not the same. Period.

[DrWeird]

138. Yes, you dissected me alright.

Completely blew me out of the water.

I had no chance against the mercilous power of your logic and analogies.

Game. Set. Match.

Buy the ticket. Take the ride.

I humbly prostrate myself before your might intellect.

Because you've won.

That's why I'm running away from the argument without answering any questions and you're sticking around sarcastically mocking my defeat.

[Radius]

139. You

answered nothing I asked and never answered my questions. And still do not see the difference in Action and Idea.

I do love arguing with arrogant people.

EDIT: "You dissected ME", you are transposing my words, very bad form. I broke your statement into its pieces and applied it to a position.

[DrWeird]

140. What was it you asked me again?

I forget.

I'll be happy to answer it. And if you would, please, answer my questions. That is, without redherrings, dodges, strawmen, phony logic, and bad analogies.

[Radius]

141. You are welcome to read my posts, questions end with?(nt)

[DrWeird]

142. I don't want to reread the whole thread.

Just tell me what you asked.

[Aidoneus]

75. If I hit you when you can't fight back, what is that?

When somebody else does it, the sort is called "terrorism":--in the plainest of terms, this is what you rush to defend.

[Radius]

78. War

If you bring a knife to a gun fight and get shot, whose fault is it?

I defended nothing other than the dead marines. Someones kids.

[DrWeird]

83. If somebody breaks into your house and shoots you in your sleep...

who's fault is it?

[Radius]

86. Incompatible

positions. I have my position, you have yours. I think we should get out asap. I don't relish our casualties.

Are they coming to my house to kill me for the coke I'm selling?

[DrWeird]

87. Well, they say you have coke.

But you don't really have any. That's just the excuse they made up.

[Radius]

89. they

say a lot. Laser guided bombs are very expensive, why spend 100,000 or more dollars in jet fuel and a laser guided bombs to kill random people? Doesn't make sense. If you want to kill random people you drop unguided bombs from a b-52, or artillery strikes.

Why would you jack my house for no reason, if you did would you use a $250,000 H&H shotgun or a 200 .38?

I'm saying I feel sorry for the dead marines and their families.

[DrWeird]

90. Why would they do it?

they're not paying for it. They've got taxpayers money to buy all the weapons they need. So they say they've got a guy, in a house, with coke (a lie), they go in, shoot the guy in the head, and they pocket all his jewelry and other valuables.

"Laser guided bombs are very expensive, why spend 100,000 or more dollars in jet fuel and a laser guided bombs to kill random people? Doesn't make sense. If you want to kill random people you drop unguided bombs from a b-52, or artillery strikes."

But they are killing random people. And they are firing artillery at civilian homes. Not sure about B-52s.

Regardless, it's all cowardly.

[Radius]

94. Arty

We are not using radar guided counter battery against mortar fire we recieve in Iraq because it kills random people. B-52's can drop guided bombs but can drop 100K lbs of dumb bombs. They cost more to operate than f aircraft. We don't need them in Iraq. I don't think we are using them for cas in Iraq.

Link to a confirmed news source where an american states he is using arty in a urban area.

I respect your opinion, but my sympathy is with the dead marines.

[Aidoneus]

107. Well,

the usual purpose of "terrorism" is to terrorize: I would strongly suspect that is the intent here. The reason one would wish to terrorize somebody is to punish them for not acting the way one would prefer them to. It is a fact that the people of Fallujah are not acting like they are "supposed" to, therefore punishment is deemed necessary to "bring them into line". It should not need to be said that this will not succeed by any stretch, and in fact will only encourage greater resistance to the 'line' that is desired, but such reasonable logic is usually anathema to those who think themselves heavily armed enough to act otherwise.

[leftchick]

82. yes dropping 500 - 2000 lb bombs on

innocent civilians in residential areas is COWARDLY! A lot like dumbya* himself.

[Radius]

88. and

so is blowing up 400lbs of high explosives in front of a police station killing 20 random people on a bus driving by. The insurgents are killing civillians at high rate.

I'd bet we are using 250 - 500 lb bombs. 2000 lbs wipes out about a city block.

Not saying killing civillians is right or we should be there, just that the marines are someones kids and I feel sorry for them.

[DrWeird]

93. The insurgents are someone's kids.

Do you feel sorry for them?

[Radius]

97. I

Feel sorry for Iraqi civillians. I do not feel sorry for people killing our troops and other Iraqis.

You think this is going away by november. Who will you feel sorry for on when Kerry wins? Who will the enemy be when this is a Democratic war? Does it matter to you?

Better think ahead.

[DrWeird]

101. So you feel sorry for the troops killing Iraqi civilians...

But you don't feel sorry for the insurgents killing the troops.

Why? religion? skin color? place of birth?

I'll continue opposing the war when Kerry gets elected. Unlike supporters of the war in Iraq, I don't support something just because the president wanted to do it. Which, let's face it, is the only reason anybody supports the war.

[Radius]

114. Catch 22

Well since both continders for president have comitted to the war you seem to have a problem.

I tend to agree with Kerry, wrong way to do it, but he will continue it when elected. It is not going away.

Sorry you do not like that I choose not to feel sorry for people killing our troops.

[Ms. Clio]

116. Sorry that you do not like that some of us feel sorry for all the Iraqis

including the ones who wouldn't be "insurgents" at all if the U.S. hadn't invaded their country.

[Radius]

124. I respect your

opinion but just don't agree with the whole statement.

[Ms. Clio]

126. Well, then break it down for me

What part don't you agree with?

[Radius]

134. I don't

think we should be there, I do think the men and women there deserve support. They are following orders and will still be following them when kerry wins.

We live in a Democracy, the congress has not voted to stop funding for the war and pull the troops. The candidates are both supporting the war. The war is here until we have what we want.

This is not a black and white issue for me. I do respect your opinions and am not trying to change them.

[leftchick]

99. then you are not reading the right reports...

or viewing the photos of the huge craters left in all of the cities being destroyed by the US. Speaking of kids... I saw many Iraqi kids murdered and wounded by the US just in the last month. Actually it is rather pointless to argue with a pro-war person like yourself.

[Radius]

128. Nice

neat categories. It makes it easier to tag people. I don't support the war. Don't believe we are over there murdering people randomly and carpet bombing civilians. It is possible to support troops without supporting the war right.

You need a new category..

[leftchick]

132. "murdering people randomly and carpet bombing civilians"

where have you been? were you asleep during "shock and awe"?!? Or Fallujah in April where HUNDREDS of civilians were killed. The same in Najaf in August by US bombers AGAIN. Oh I know, it was like a video game where no one really gets hurt right? :eyes:

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

71. General Abizaid was interviewed on CNN this morning

about the recent casualties in Iraq and the fact that some claim the military situation is breaking down. Abizaid's response? He said that we've been fighting in that part of the world now for over 3 years and that we have yet to lose a military engagement. Sound familiar? That's what I heard as a kid all through the long years of the Vietnam war.

[leftchick]

84. by that logic General....

Falluja, Ramadi and Najaf are "succeses". Cripes, sounds like freeper logic to me...

[Ms. Clio]

106. Catastrophic successes n/t

[alcuno]

85. The Truth: The military won't lose but can't win.

As for the politicians......

[bemildred]

96. "Casualty figures did not matter"

The communists nevertheless demonstrated a painful fact of insurgency war: a
movement does not need to be popular in order to succeed. It only needs to be
persistent and organised. It does not need to win battles; it only needs to keep
fighting. Long after the war, a prominent American general travelled to
Vietnam to see the Vietnamese supreme commander Vo Nguyen Giap.
"General Giap", he remarked, "you realise you never defeated us in battle."
Giap concluded that, despite eight years of fighting, the American commander
never understood the war. The communists succeeded by fighting a protracted
war which gradually became intolerable for the American people. They
determined the pace of the war - when battles were fought, what nature they
assumed, when they were over. When the Americans launched major
offensives to root out their enemy, communists simply disappeared into the
countryside.

Casualty figures did not matter. Ho Chi Minh once said: "You can kill 10 of my
men for every one of yours, but I will still win. You can kill 100 of my soldiers
for every one of yours. But I will still win." The Americans never figured out
how to defeat a force which placed so little value on human life. Winning
territory was not important, nor was the issue of ?hearts and minds?. The
only significant statistic in this war was the will of the American people, and
that was in terminal decline.

The whole piece is worth a read.

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=404&id=409612004

[shadu]

129. That piece is worth reading

It is easy to forget the differences in cultural views
on war, death and patriotism.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

130. We won that body count thing in Vietnam big time, baby!

2 million plus to 50,000! Scoreboard!

You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it.
Ho Chi Minh

[Morning Dew]

103. This entire misadventure is a training ground for terrorists

and they're getting better at what they do. Thanks, W, for giving them live training exercises - FOOL!

[Dzimbowicz]

108. Every death in Iraq

bothers me to no end, whether it is one of our service members or an Iraqi.

I still don't have my avatar up as yet, so:

VETERANS FOR PEACE
www.veteransforpeace.org

[nolabels]

122. I don't think I ever met a soldier while I was in that joined because....

they had some desire to kill anybody. Have things changed for the worse in last 20 years? My guess, yes but not how most would think, the article below seems to indicate to have cost / function exercise on top, with bodies (short of death) as the most expendable. This seems to me a bussiness/corporate type view they are using now.

How the Pentagon Failed U.S. Troops

In the 16 months since President George W. Bush landed on the U.S. aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln and declared major combat activities in Iraq complete, the nearly 400,000 U.S. service men and women deployed in active duty around the globe have faced unprecedented difficulties.

By now, the litany of strategic miscalculations in Iraq by civilian leaders at the Pentagon is well known. What the public and news media often neglect, however, are the less publicized policies that have quietly but insidiously undermined American troops, making it increasingly challenging to fight under the U.S. flag.

Four major Pentagon policies in the past year have undermined the morale of U.S. troops and their families - and are likely to leave a negative long-term impact on the ability of the armed services to recruit and retain service members in the long term.

First, in the dog days of August 2003, while Congress recessed, the Pentagon quietly cut payments for imminent danger and family separation. Earlier that summer, Congress had given the nearly 150,000 U.S. troops serving in Iraq and the 9,000 serving in Afghanistan a $75 a month imminent danger pay increase and a $150 monthly allowance to fund rent and child care for their families at home. The administration cited budgetary concerns for this pay cut. Yet the two payments totaled approximately $450 million - a meager amount next to the $400 billion 2003 defense budget or the $166 billion spent in 2003 on supplemental spending bills for Iraq and Afghanistan.
(snip)
http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/NewsArticle.cfm?ID=1939

I like Veteran for Peace better, but hearing many different points of views serves everybody best if you ask me

P.S. Avatars not required

[SensibleOne]

117. FYI: MSNBC covering this now...

Very detailed. 7 US soldiers killed in car bomb outside Falluja. Also went straight into the journalist hostages.

[leftchick]

120. wtf? Do US soldiers always shoot at everyone when they get attacked?

no wonder they hate us....



Ahmed Taha receives medical attention in Fallujah, after he sustained injuries when U.S. troops started shooting after a car bomb attack on the outskirts of Fallujah, Iraq (news - web sites), Monday Sept. 6, 2004. Seven U.S. marines and 3 Iraqi National Guard soldiers died in theapparent suicide attack, the military said. (AP Photo/Abdul Khader Sadi)

[Ms. Clio]

125. That has been the pattern from the beginning of this monstrosity

I remember providing links to exactly that information to someone who has been prominent on this thread, in fact.

[leftchick]

131. THIS is what got them....

U.S. soldiers, mounted on a Striker armored vehicle, guard a destroyed car which exploded as a US convoy passed by in the al-Eslah district in the northern city of Mosul, September 6, 2004. Attackers targeted a U.S. convoy with a blast near the Iraqi city of Fallujah on Monday, the U.S. military said. Witnesses said as many as eight Americans were killed or wounded. REUTERS/Akram Sal

Reminds me of all of those Vietnam movies with the same very bad endings....

[Pattib]

127. Makes me sick that the media has turned away from the Iraq war. Barely a

mention on CNN. Nothing reported on The Today Show or GMA. It's like they're all saying no big deal...move along now. Bill Maher talked about this on his Friday show on HBO. He said soldier's dying daily yet it seems as though reporters have moved on to other things. Sad.

No wonder the Rethugs don't want to talk about Iraq, it may just remind people what is really happening over there. It seems a lot have forgotten or lost interest.

[oasis]

144. that was the whole idea of the accelerated turn over of soveriengty. It's

the Iraqi's problem now so get it off the front pages. Rove is promoting the idea that the Iraqis are able to handle the "problem" with minor help from the U.S. armed services. Therefore there's no need for the same amount of media attention as when Bremmer was in charge.

Condi's people are coordinating the stream of news going out by U.S. forces.

It's a semi-shut down of the flow of information. Only the propagandized version of events see any daylight.

[allemand]

143. "Brad DeLong Gets Shriller"

"They are the finest and best-equipped battlefield soldiers in the history of the world. THEY ARE NOT ARABIC-SPEAKING MILITARY POLICE! THEY SHOULD NOT BE USED AS IF THEY WERE ARABIC-SPEAKING MILITARY POLICE!!"
http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/2004-2_archives/000129.html

I couldn't say it any better.