Feinstein pushes Bush on assault weapon ban | Sacramento Bee

[Ediacara]

Feinstein pushes Bush on assault weapon ban

By David Whitney -- Bee Washington Bureau
Published 2:15 am PDT Thursday, September 9, 2004

WASHINGTON - Sen. Dianne Feinstein pleaded with President Bush on Wednesday to press Congress into renewing the 10-year-old ban on assault weapons and then blamed the National Rifle Association for orchestrating the ban's nearly certain expiration at midnight Monday.

The California Democrat, a major architect of the ban, charged that the NRA is withholding its endorsement of Bush for re-election until the ban expires to make sure he doesn't campaign for its renewal.

The NRA disputed Feinstein's charge, saying that its policy is to wait until after the political conventions to issue endorsements and that it often waits until October.

The ban's expiration will mean that U.S. manufacturers can make - and gun stores can sell - military-style rapid-fire weapons equipped with such devices as high-capacity ammunition magazines and flash suppressors that camouflage weapons fired in the dark.

More at the Sacramento Bee

[MrBenchley]

1. Good for her....

So much for pResident Toot keeping America safer....

[Cicero]

2. Where to begin?

The ban's expiration will mean that U.S. manufacturers can make - and gun stores can sell - military-style rapid-fire weapons equipped with such devices as high-capacity ammunition magazines and flash suppressors that camouflage weapons fired in the dark

1) U.S. manufacturers can already make - and gun stores can already sell - comparable weapons that have only cosmetic differences from those covered in the ban.

2) People can already purchase high-capacity ammunition magazines made before the ban took place.

3) Flash suppressors allow the shooter to better see the target, but they do not eliminate the flash, and cannot camoflage weapons fired in the dark.

Jeeze...

Later,

[jtb33]

3. This is a lose-lose issue for us...

I'll be glad when it is gone since I am a firearm collector and hobby target shooter, but also because it will take away one more lose-lose talking point.

[Snellius]

5. Standing up for what is right is never a lose-lose situation

Where Democrats show weakness is not when they stand up for what they believe, but when they capitulate what they know is right for the sake of compromising political expediency.

[MrBenchley]

8. Exactly so....

There's no reason, in a country with this much gun violence every damn day, to increase the chances of americans getting shot......

[Surf Cowboy]

13. Yeah, but far more are injured by cars, and I don't see you trying to

collect everyone's Honda.

It is a lose-lose, but on both sides--kind of a third rail.

When Dems talk gun-control, it makes us look weak on personal responsibility. People kill people. Whether they use a gun or knife or pipe bomb or blunt object means little to the dead guy. Actually, if anything, guns make it easier to kill, but all this evidences is the utter laziness of Americans--now too lazy to kill with our own hands.

When Repugs talk right to bear arms, they look like a bunch of Pat Buchanan, camo wearin', full-auto in a neighborhood lunatics.

The majority of people want some sort of control (including me), particularly of these weapons. Probably better to use this simply as another example of how W has given away our safety.

[MrBenchley]

15. What a pile of crap!

Let's have guns registered and gun owners licensed....then we'll talk about personal responsibility.

[Surf Cowboy]

22. You can think that all you want. You and 20% of the public. Have fun.

[MrBenchley]

26. I plan to....

And I'll just console myself with the fact that it's 80% of the public, plus pretty much every elected Democrat you've ever heard of, pretty much every liberal or moderate pundit or writer, and the party platform who also share my prescription.

But you've got Bill Frist, the Aryan Nation and Tom DeLay.

[jtb33]

29. Party platform on Guns?

I didn't find it on the Democrats.org web site... can someone point me to the URL of it?

[MrBenchley]

34. You don't know where to find the Party platform?

That IS funny....

[jtb33]

98. No...

I don't see the platform on "gun" issues in the party platform. I am just asking for the URL for the "gun" issue of the party platform.

[hansolsen]

116. You misread the political climate. this issue is costing us millions of

votes, especially in rural swing states -- think Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, etc.

[MrBenchley]

179. What a pantload.....

There's no demonstrable demand for assault weapons at all, except among the hardcore lunatic fringe who hate democrats already.

and if that weren't the case, you'd be seeing the GOP trumpeting their support for assault weapons in stores, not hiding behind weakass procedural excuses.

[hansolsen]

191. Reasonable people who do not want to personally own a so called

"assault weapon" have other reasons to oppose this legislation. The main one I cite is that it is so stupid it makes my head hurt.

[hansolsen]

115. Efforts to enforce effective gun registration would start a civil war.

Blood in the streets civil war. Is that what you want?

[hansolsen]

114. "these weapons" are really not different than a hundred million hunting

rifles and shot guns in the hands of citizens now. They are not more dangerous. This is a tempest in a teapot costing us votes and saving no lives.

[hansolsen]

113. The AWB has cost lives not saved lives. N/T

[FeebMaster]

37. Unless you're standing up for gun rights apparently

then doing what's right doesn't matter and you have to justify you need to own and do everything to the folks who want to ban everything.

[hansolsen]

112. Gun control laws are feel good disasters. This issue has cost Dems

millions of votes nationwide and actually resulted in the sale of more guns, not less.

Good intentions are a poor substitute for good policy.

[MrBenchley]

6. Just the opposite...it is an effective measure popular with voters

and shows what a pile of horseshit the claim that Republicans make America safer IS.

[Radius]

9. Ignorance

Anyone who knows anything about firearms knows this bill is a joke. It has had NO effect on anything.

It just has a really scary name.

Legal, under ban..:
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/bushmaster308.asp
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=151267

[MrBenchley]

12. Without ignorance there'd be no RKBA cause....

"this bill is a joke. It has had NO effect on anything."
That is pretty fucking funny....considering how hard the gun lobby is pushing to keep it from being renewed. They even scuttled their own rancid "immunity from liability" bill rather than risk the renewal...or risk the closing of the gun show loophole,

[Radius]

21. Effects are a big joke..

Cosmetics
Legal:
http://www.sksman.com/access/AK47%20magazines.html
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/bushmaster308.asp

The rifle is more accurate with out a flash sup

The ban makes bayonet mounts and flash supressors (don't really suppress flash) illegal.

It gives people who no little about firearms a war fuzzy pc feeling. These guns aren't used in the vast majority of crime because they are not concealable, expensive, and more difficult to use than a pistol.

[MrBenchley]

24. If that were true...gun loonies wouldn't need assault weapons, would they?

"It gives people who no little about firearms a war fuzzy pc feeling."
Like pretty much every law enforcement group around (except for a few phony ones, like the NRA's shadow group)....

[Radius]

28. Fact

There is NO difference in the weapons I linked pre or post ban. It is a political bill that has no effect in the real world.

"assault weapons" have been available during the entire course of the ban.

A flash protector or bayonet mount have no effect on law enforcement, or on how a rifle works.

What part of this bill do you think should be kept and why?

[MrBenchley]

32. It would be nice if our trigger happy friends ever had a fact....

instead of NRA talking points...

"It is a political bill that has no effect in the real world. "
And if that were true, the gun lobby wouldn't be pushing so hard to make sure it would be gone. But you and I both know that's a load of crap.

By the way, which bills in Congress aren't "political bills"?

"What part of this bill do you think should be kept and why?"
I support the bill currently in Congress....S. 1431 or H.R. 2038. As for why, I could give a lot of reasons...but I don't feel like saying more than "To give Bill Frist and Tom DeLay a spasm."

[Radius]

39. Pull my posts on this

You care to answer my question. What exactly is this bill banning that you want to preserve?

I can buy an ar-15 or sks rifle now. I can buy a hicap magazine for this rifle now.

I can not have a flash hider or bayonet mount. That is effective gun control?

[MrBenchley]

42. Too too funny....

You want to tell us the bill stinks BUT you haven't read it?

"That is effective gun control?"
Gee, it's good to know you want gun control.....

[Evolutions Eve]

108. Sorry MrBenchley

But I have been a longtime reader/first time poster at this site and I can tell you right now - you are what is wrong with the party today. Radius has asked you legitimate questions and you have insulted him/her time and again. Yes, you have over 1000 posts here so you are probably highly respected, but I just had to say that if someone came here that may want to see what our party had to offer, they would be very, very turned off by the way you are acting.

[hansolsen]

119. Welcome to DU, and please come sit by me. Benchley is not

representative of DU thinking. We reexamine our policies here and call a spade a spade. The AWB is the single dumbest initiatve this Party has ever sponsored.

[Evolutions Eve]

148. Thanks

Didn't think that he was. Just had to get that off of my chest.

[bobbyboucher]

120. If they were a gunbot, maybe

But not everybody.

[MrBenchley]

155. Hahahahahaha....

[hansolsen]

118. The AWB is probably the single most ineffective gun law ever written

and that is saying a lot.

[hansolsen]

171. Anyone who still thinks gun control laws have been effective has not

been paying attention.

[GizDog]

4. leave my guns alone!

For crying out loud, when will the party wake up and realize they're on the wrong side on so called gun safety. How many union voters do you think are avid gun owners, collectors and hunters. Let's do everything we can to run them off.

Freaking idiots! Do you think Kerry is going to carry any of the "fly over" states? This is a prime example as to why he will not!

[MrBenchley]

7. For crying out loud....

"How many union voters do you think are avid gun owners, collectors and hunters"
Damn few....there's not but 6% of the country hunts...mostly older people. And even a majority of gun owners favor banning assault weapons.

[GizDog]

10. well then

Maybe I'll go the way of Zell Miller and say that the party has abandon me. BTW, you may want to ask UAW workers in Michigan what they think about guns. I have taught my kids to hunt and appreciate my values. I'm quite sure I'm not alone in that!

[MrBenchley]

11. None but the Zell Miller wing is really pushing this crap now....

By the way, wonder what those UAW workers in Michigan think about ending up on the NRA's enemies list?

"Each election year the NRA uses the fear of gun confiscation to convince millions of voters to cast their ballots against "anti-gun" candidates. Many of the voters who follow the NRA endorsements are working people and a large number are union members. However, NRA-endorsed candidates do not just vote on gun issues when they take their seats in Congress or in state legislatures. They also vote on issues like workplace safety and health, workers' compensation, overtime regulations, pension reform, union rights and the minimum wage. And when they do, the NRA's candidates, with a few exceptions, are far more likely to vote for corporate America's positions on these issues than labor's. In other words, the NRA's candidate is almost always the candidate of big business.
Take Pennsylvania Republican Sen. Rick Santorum. He has voted with the gun lobby enough times on gun-related issues that he has earned an A+ rating from the NRA. At the same time, he has consistently voted against workers' interests, and for business' interests, on almost every workplace-related issue. He has opposed increasing the minimum wage, extending unemployment benefits and establishing an ergonomic standard that would make workplaces safer; and he has supported provisions that would make millions of workers ineligible for overtime pay and that would weaken unions and union rights.
And Santorum is not the exception; he is the rule. On work and employment-related issues that come before Congress, NRA-supported politicians are much more likely to support the interests of employers than the interests of employees."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04248/373232.stm

[Surf Cowboy]

14. Don't do that.

The Repugs have their Jerry Falwell's and Sun Myung Moon's. We have our namby-pamby wrap-it-in-a-blanket-and-cuddle-it gang. You are just experiencing one of the more namby moments.

[MrBenchley]

17. Speaking of Moon...he owns a gun factory....

"We have our namby-pamby wrap-it-in-a-blanket-and-cuddle-it gang."
Yeah, we're not like you tough guys with your dildoes, I mean guns....

[Surf Cowboy]

25. Hey MrBenchley:

I wasn't replying to you. So shut up.

Better yet, if you want the Dems to win in November: SHUT UP!!

Dems like you tend to turn away independents, just like Pat Robertson types hurt the Repugs.

If you're not with winning, just shut TF up. We have neither time nor room to lose this one, and if we have to shut up on gun control to do it, then we shut up.

JEEZUS. No wonder people worry about Dems being tough enough to handle terror or crime. The squeakiest wheel always gets heard the loudest, and it's always so damn squeaky.

[MrBenchley]

27. Hey, have someone explain to you what a public forum is

and how it works.....

"if you want the Dems to win in November: SHUT UP!"
Fuck that shit, as we say in Brooklyn. Nobody but a handful of right wing shitheels like Frist and Delay want these gunds on the market.

"No wonder people worry about Dems being tough enough to handle terror or crime."
What people? The sort of shitheels who need an assault weapon? Hand me a BIG laugh.

[Surf Cowboy]

164. It's a third rail--get it?

It's like Social Security---you don't talk about it, because there's no good answer, and you can only lose votes. Dems will not gain in votes right now by focusing on this issue. You would think so, and in an ordinary year, you'd be right. But not this year. People this year can't get their heads out of the "terra" issue. They can't get over their uncertainty about the economy or Iraq. These are the three biggies. Nobody seems to care about health care, education, crime, or gun control. There are bigger fish to fry here. And if you can only lose votes by bringing up yet another issue that nobody really cares about right now (we'll have to wait for another Columbine, regrettably)--you've got to SHUT UP.

Yeah, it's an open forum, and yeah, you're right about us needing this law, but if we try to feed independents classic liberal content during THIS election, we'll get creamed, and big time.

This is one of those issues you wait until you're in power to address. Then, you've got the % of the public on your side, and it doesn't matter who you turn off.

Dems need to get realistic about the voting public, and sooner rather than later. The folks running this campaign appear to me to be incompetent. It is becoming more and more apparent to me that Kerry could easily lose PA--and that should NEVER happen.

[MrBenchley]

175. Two words: Bull and Shit

"Dems need to get realistic about the voting public"
And the realistic assessment is that nobody wants these back on the market except the hardcore gun crazies who were never going to vote Democratic because they hate blacks, Jews, gays and uppity women. A majority of voters want them kept off the market...which is why even the Republicans trying to get them back in the stores are hiding behind this procedural horseshit.

And this issue speaks directly to "terra" and shows what a farce the GOP's claims to "protect America" are.

[Surf Cowboy]

182. OK, Wiseass,

then why hasn't this thing become a real issue?

Why aren't people talking about it as they are Terrorism, Iraq, and the Economy?

To you, it's a HUGE issue, obviously. To the rest of the country, it's just not that big a deal right now. You can either keep doing what Kerry has been doing (talking about things outside the big three and getting beat up because of it), or you can deal with the issues that are going to decide THIS election. The environment is my HUGE issue, but I'm not stupid enough to think that people are as concerned with mercury pollution and overfishing as I am. Most people only concern themselves with the broad strokes. Either you want to win, or you want to be right. The two are not going to share much of the same space this election. If you win, you get to change all the things you don't like (gun control, environment, health care, whatever). If you don't win, it isn't going to matter how much you care about gun control. If you don't win, you are done, amigo. For at least four years (*and, if the # of crimes committed with the targeted weapons does not increase with their new availablility---you're done for good).

Keep that in mind. You hold yourself together and WIN first by dealing with the monster issues, THEN you attack on the less-important, yet politically favorable issues. Otherwise you get nowhere. BTW, how are our poll #'s looking lately?

[MrBenchley]

183. Gee, I see a MoveOn ad and Feinstein commenting...

sure seems like a real issue to me.....

For something that isn't a real issue, we sure got a lot of wailing anfd puking out of the trigger happy.....

"The environment is my HUGE issue,"
Is it, now? Care to tell us how the gun rights politicans have voted on environmental issues? Start with the Second Amendment Caucus (all Republican fuckwits by the way). Racist idiot Marilyn Musgrave heads it up...what's her record on the environment, pray tell?

Meanwhile:
"To preserve the environment and strengthen agriculture, Feinstein has mediated measures to save California's redwood trees from timber/lumber exploitation through the Headwaters Forest Agreement and restore the natural resources of Lake Tahoe via The Lake Tahoe Restoration Act of 2000, and is currently working to preserve the Sequoia National Monument and fund precautionary measures for shielding sequoias against wildfires. Her efforts on the Senate Appropriations committee authorized compensation and prevention funding for damage caused by fruit flies to California crops. Feinstein cosponsored Lincoln Chafee's Brownfields Revitalization and Environmental Restoration Act of 2000, a bipartisan bill providing national brownfields cleanup and redevelopment in urban areas. This legislation expands tax incentives for federal brownfields coverage and places brownfields revitalization in a special attention category separate from Superfund. The goal is to stimulate the economies of these communities by attracting new residents and businesses partially through brownfields improvements."

http://www.votewithavengeance.com/feinstein.html

[hansolsen]

124. Yup. N/T

[shanti]

18. it's not about "guns"

it's about ASSAULT WEAPONS!!!! nobody's trying to take away your "guns"!!!

[SierraMtns]

41. What exactly is an ASSAULT WEAPON?

Can you describe the difference between guns that are allowed and these so-called ASSAULT WEAPONS?

[MrBenchley]

48. Yes, no one knows what an assault weapon is

except those who cream their jeans over them....

[shanti]

102. an uzi is one example

you can't be that naive.

[hansolsen]

129. No, no, no. An Uzi is not an example. An Uzi is a fully automatic

military issue weapon. The AWB does not ban fully automatic weapons, they are banned under other, much oilder legislation.

[shanti]

138. how bout an ak-47?

does that count?

[hansolsen]

139. No it doesn't count. When the generic term AK47 is used it conjures up

an image of an insurrgent running around the streets of Baghdad with a fully automatic military weapon acquired from gun dealers on the black market.

The AWB does not address fully automatic weapons, which are already banned anyway.

Now, there are semi-automatic AK47 knock offs that look like the "real" thing, but are not any more dangerous than literally a 100 million other hunting rifles and shotguns in private hands that are routinely used for hunting, etc.

It is a bogus issue. Diane Feinstein is an idiot.

[shanti]

150. well

i do agree with your last statement!!

[DoNotRefill]

125. the absence or presence of....

a bayonet lug and a flash supressor.

Apparently, there's been a huge problem with random, drive-by bayonetings in LA.

[hansolsen]

127. There is no such thing as an "assault weapon". Guns are all dangerous

weapons. This law is all about cosmetics, and nothing else.

[llmart]

83. I'm a UAW member and I'm from Michigan.....

and I say you're wrong. No one needs an assault weapon. You are making assumptions in this statement. #1 assumption you make is that all UAW workers are men (I'm not last time I checked). #2 assumption you make is that the majority of Michiganders are hunters. They are not. I believe the previous poster is correct that less than 6% of the population hunt and that number is getting smaller and smaller because the younger generations aren't interested in hunting. I'm not saying that's right or wrong - I'm just saying it's a fact.

[Guaranteed]

16. ALL of the people I've been trying to get over to our side

are gun owners and are EXTREMELY concerned by this issue.

This LOSES for us. It is STUPID.

Shut the hell UP, Feinstein.

[MrBenchley]

19. Gee, bullgoose....

You know that many people who are itching to get their shaky hands on assault weapons? Where are you recruiting, the Aryan Nation?

[Guaranteed]

20. Nope, just central Illinois.

All of my girlfriend's family members are middle class gun owners, as well as her co-workers. They're all moderate Republicans, but hate Democrats just for this one issue.

It's funny, because these are all people who could be Clinton Democrats- they like Democrats for their fiscal policies. Tax the rich, tax cuts for the middle class. They eat it up.

Then the very same DLC people who made those policies to recruit this demographic shove them away with their stupid AWB.

[MrBenchley]

23. So what do they need assault weapons for?

[GizDog]

30. What, exactly, is an assault weapon?

What, exactly, is an assault weapon? What characteristic of this mythical firearm do you find so repugnant?

I shoot. I own what some of you would consider to be a big scary arsenal. However, I'm here also. Do you not want me here? That's what I'm hearing from the true believers. Is the party really in that much of a hurry to shun me and my friends? This is going to be a tight election. Why would you want this to be a reason for gun enthusiasts to either not vote or change teams?

[MrBenchley]

45. I'll go with the definition in the bills before Congress....

"Is the party really in that much of a hurry to shun me and my friends?"
Which friends are these? The folks pushing to let this bill expire are Bill Frist and Tom DeLay.

"This is going to be a tight election. Why would you want this to be a reason for gun enthusiasts to either not vote or change teams?"
Why would we want to piss away the majority of voters, who want gun control?

[jtb33]

31. What does someone need a Porsche for? n/t

[GizDog]

33. oh great!

There want my ar-15 and now they'll judge me for driving my 911 Cab.

[MrBenchley]

36. Too too funny.....

[Radius]

35. What do you need

a 1100cc suziki bike that can go 200+ mph. I mean you can only use it to break the law right?

by assault weapon people refer to any semi-automatic rifle that "looks dangerous".

The truth is that they are rarely used in crime and you could apply the same ban to the remington 11-87 shotgun that is common for skeet shooting. It is a semi-auto.

[MrBenchley]

40. So in other words, because you want to break speeding laws

you think you ought to have an assault weapon too?

Brilliant.

"The truth is that they are rarely used in crime "
Yeah...that's what happen when you ban them.

"you could apply the same ban to the remington 11-87 shotgun"
Gee, drudge was trying to peddle that crap just yesterday....Be sure and show us where that language is in the bill before Congress.

[Radius]

44. Actually

A shotgun is far more deadly than an semi-auto rifle because you do not have to have the same level of skill to aim. You get 16 balls in the air vs 1. Given the choice in a fight I would prefer an pump shotgun to a semi-auto rifle.

Dude they ARE NOT BANNED. YOU CAN BUY AN AR-15 RIGHT NOW AND A HI-CAP MAG TO GO WITH.

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/bushmaster308.asp

NOW TODAY LEGAL. HAVE BEEN FOR YEARS.

I'm sure the flash hider and bayonet mount will make this weapon much more lethal.

Like I said this bill gives people who no little of firearms a happy warm feeling, nothing else.

[MrBenchley]

47. In other words, you don't need one....

thanks for showing what a pantload the opposition to this bill really is....

[Radius]

53. LaLa land

Read the posts, people already have them. Buy them every day, legally.

The ban croaking legalized, bayonet mounts, flash suppressors, and collapsing stocks.

Have you ever seen or fired an assault weapon?

[MrBenchley]

55. That's where the gun-crazy folks live....

"Have you ever seen or fired an assault weapon?"
I haven't had the clap either...but I know why that shouldn't be widesrpead too.

[Radius]

57. Yeah

I live in lala land. Funny no one has been murdered where I live for years. And people own lots of guns.

I think you have no clue what you are talking about. What part of the bill do you want to keep?

[MrBenchley]

59. Yeah, you live in lala land....

tell us, what does the bill before Congress say?

[Radius]

60. Answer my Question? I asked first(NT)

[MrBenchley]

63. Gave it the answer it deserved.

[Radius]

65. Well

That ends it for me. Anyone who refuses to participate in a discussion, even one they obviously know jack shit about is a mythical creature that lives under bridges and I don't see the point in continuing.

[MrBenchley]

68. Gee, I'm happy to participate in a discussion....

I just don't think listening to right wing talking points makes for much of adiscussion...especially since you seem unable to even find the text of the bill under discussion....

[Radius]

72. I asked you first sir

What part of the bill do you wish to preserve? FACTS are facts. The bill has no effect on the availability of a particular firearm. None.

I posted links where you can legally purchase an "assault weapon" and 100rd mag. So what is it you think this bill is doing?

Common courtesy would dictate you answer first. You are welcome to post a link to the AWB set to expire. If there is a particular portion you wish to discuss I will be happy to discuss.

Refusal to answer questions in a forum has a name attached to it.

[MrBenchley]

77. And you got the answer you deserved....

If you want to discuss the bill currently before Congress, feel free.

[Evolutions Eve]

110. Stop

Radius,

There is no reasoning or discussing this issue with MrBenchley. He has done nothing but attack you or anyone else who disagrees with him. The more he talks, the more people he pushes away. Let it go.

[hansolsen]

135. Before you accuse other posters of using right wing talking points you

might check and see why Carl Rove has nominated support of Gun control as his favorite DU topic.

[MrBenchley]

154. Gee, that would be so much more convincing...

if you could actually spell Rove's name....

But then you'll notice that it's Rove and the GOP blocking that vote in Congress.

[hansolsen]

170. Hey, thanks for pointing that out. Karl it is. And Karl's wet dream is

that the Dems will raise the gun control flag and run on that all fall.

[MrBenchley]

176. Who the hell DO you think you're kidding?

[hansolsen]

185. I'm not kidding. Rove knows gun control is a net loss issue for Dems.

Fortunatley Kerry knows it too. You are the only person left on the planet who didn't get the memo.

[hansolsen]

132. Radius is factually correct and please listen to the tone and tenor of his

post. Voters who know the most about guns are the least in favor of the AWB because they know it is just feel good legislation that will not save a single life. The tone you hear in his posts and mine, I hope, is growing frustration that the gun control advocates in DU are so slow to see the down side of their worthless legislation.

There is a balance sheet, it has two colums, not one. Wake up and smell the roses.

[MrBenchley]

157. Peddle it to somebody else....

"it is just feel good legislation that will not save a single life"
Gee, if that were true, there wouldn't be any problem letting it go through, would there?

"There is a balance sheet, it has two colums, not one"
In my column, pretty much every liberal Democrat around...in yours, Bill Frist, Tom DeLay, John AshKKKroft, David Duke and the Aryan Nation. The odor sure ain't roses coming off the "gun rights" crowd.

[hansolsen]

163. Your underlying assumption is that there is no down side to AWB.

That is not true and the fact you have not considered the total balance sheet on this legislation says all we need to know about your position.

The AWB has resulted in far more people buying guns than it has stopped.

[MrBenchley]

177. Got your "total balance sheet" right here, hans....

On the one hand we've got pretty much every person worth respecting in a push to renew the AWB...

And on the other side, scum like Frist and DeLay...and even they're not crazy enough to try to trot out this gun loony gibberish in public.

"The AWB has resulted in far more people buying guns than it has stopped"
Again, if that were remotely true, you'd find the gun lobby pushing for renewal....

[hansolsen]

189. Here is the real balance sheet:

Good that has come of AWB

1. Makes certain Dems feel good, as if they had done something.

Note: No lives were saved -- This legislation has not prevented the sale of one assault weapon -- the industry had work arounds in place within weeks.

Note; No lives have been saved -- Overall the rate of deaths by guns has not come down because there are far more guns in private hands now than before gun control became a big Dem issue, and worse, most of the new guns purchased have gone to non hunters. That is a disaster, not a benefit.

Bad that has resulted directly from AWB.

1. Many more so called "assault weapons" have been sold since the ban than before it, do to all the free publicity.

2. The rate of handgun purchses by non hunters has soared exponentially since gun control became a big issue.

3. Millions of traditional Dem voters, including many union members in swing states, have abandoned the Dem party because of gun control, and the dawning realization that if Dem bigfeet are as dumb about other things as they are about guns, these folks are in the wrong party.

[Guaranteed]

71. Does that matter?

The point is that this is why they're not voting Democrat.

In any case, maybe they want to make sure they can at least try to defend their homes from their government.

[MrBenchley]

75. Guess nothing matters to the trigger-happy....

except their precious popguns...so glad I don't know folks like that. Most of my friends and acquaintances aren't nuts.

"this is why they're not voting Democrat"
Uh-huh.

"maybe they want to make sure they can at least try to defend their homes from their government."
Amazing how prevalent this insanity is among the trigger happy. The sad part is that not all of them realize it's just horseshit from the NRA and one of the charmers kills a postman, or blows up a government building with a day care center.....

[Radius]

81. Better

Ban Diesel Fuel and Fertilizer.

[MrBenchley]

84. Gee, I'd be happy to put taggants in them....

too bad the gun lobby blocked that proposal....

[Guaranteed]

82. I don't even own a gun, and I agree

with them. I know what the 2nd Amendment is there for.

[MrBenchley]

89. Then you know what the courts have said about the Second Amendment....

"The ACLU agrees with the Supreme Court's long-standing interpretation of the Second Amendment that the individual's right to bear arms applies only to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia. Except for lawful police and military purposes, the possession of weapons by individuals is not constitutionally protected. Therefore, there is no constitutional impediment to the regulation of firearms."

"Since the Second Amendment. . . applies only to the right of the State to maintain a militia and not to the individual's right to bear arms, there can be no serious claim to any express constitutional right to possess a firearm."
U.S. v. Warin (6th Circuit, 1976)

http://archive.aclu.org/library/aaguns.html

[DoNotRefill]

117. From your link:

"We believe that the constitutional right to bear arms is primarily a collective one, intended mainly to protect the right of the states to maintain militias to assure their own freedom and security against the central government."

Please notice the word "primarily", and note that it is NOT the word "exclusively".

[MrBenchley]

156. Now tell us what the courts have said, refill....

and while you're at it...tell us how many times the NRA has sued to overturn gun control laws on Second Amendment grounds.

(Answer: None, as in not once, ever. They know the difference between the truth and the crap they funnel to their ignorant paranoid followers.)

[hansolsen]

141. 99% of gun owners are not "trigger happy" and don't like being insulted.

Most guns are owned by hunters and hunting is a million year old tradition kept alive by generations of hunters in many families across the country. Hunters enjoy the outdoors, are great environmentalists, and are strong builders of families. When Dems denograte gun owners they reveal more about their own ignorance than anything else.

[MrBenchley]

159. Hahahaha...maybe if we didn't have so many gun-crazy folks

creaming their jeans over assault weapons and claiming they need guns for the glorious revolution, "trigger happy" wouldn't be such an apt description.

"When Dems denograte gun owners they reveal more about their own ignorance"
No comment (VBG)

[hansolsen]

174. You do not refute my argument by denigrating my spelling. N/T

[MrBenchley]

178. No, hans, that's just icing on the cake hahahaha

[hansolsen]

130. This post is pure truth. Listen up. N/T

[hansolsen]

122. Gun owners are one of the largest and best organized political groups in

the country. In Minnesota half of all voters live in families that own guns, hunt regularly, and vote often. It is a losing issue. John Kerry knows it -- why don't you??

[DoNotRefill]

151. How do you figure Kerry knows it?

what, just because he keeps having his picture taken with guns while saying he's not anti-gun???

[hansolsen]

162. Yes, that, and the fact that he says he is a gun owner and a hunter. N/T

[hansolsen]

121. Yes, yes, yes. Well said. N/T

[SierraMtns]

38. How will this help Kerry in WV, PA, OH, NC, FL etc?

Will it bring out the millions of moms that marched on DC and surge Kerry to the top of the polls?

[MrBenchley]

43. For one thing...

it shows that the Democrats are serious about protecting Americans....as oppose to the Republicans, who put assault weapons back in the store.

[Radius]

46. There NOW

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/bushmaster308.asp

THE ABOVE IS AND HAS BEEN LEGAL FOR YEARS. THE HI-CAP MAG IS AVAILABLE ON THE NET FOR $20 LEGALLY.


This bill makes people who are not familiar with guns feel happy and like they are "making people safe".

[MrBenchley]

49. That's so cute....

"This bill makes people who are not familiar with guns feel happy and like they are "making people safe"."
And it makes people familiar with the gun industry aware of what a scummy bunch they are.

[Radius]

51. Do You actually have any concept

of the topic you are discussing or just ranting..

Like I said, what exactly do you want to preserve in this bill?

It sounds really good, thats about all the effect it has.

Assault weapon is a dramatic word made up by nazis. It is a unicorn.

Do you know why you are against it or has someone told you to be against it?

[MrBenchley]

54. As a matter of fact....

I know the bill under discussion...do you?

"Do you know why you are against it"
Yeah...and what's more I know the history of the RKBA movement and what sort of scummy folks make up the gun lobby.

[Radius]

56. Yep

Better yet I actually know the subject matter we are discussing. Firearms.

You still have not answered my question!

[MrBenchley]

61. I gave your question all the answer it deserved....

"I actually know the subject matter we are discussing. Firearms."
Yeah? Tell us, please, which conservative group started the RKBA movement in the early 1970s? Which member of the NRA board was convicted of criminal possession of a machine gun? Which gun group is headed by a guy so racist that Pat Buchanan had to flee his public company?

[Radius]

73. Firearms

A piece of equipment, inert until used by a person. I know what effect this law has had and linked you to sites that prove my points.

The NRA, IRA, or Warrren Comission are equally worthless in this discussion.

What part of the bill do you wish to preserve?

[MrBenchley]

79. Firearms...a fetish, a scummy industry, and a right wing flashpoint

"The NRA, IRA, or Warrren Comission are equally worthless"
The NRA and the gun lobby are exactly the point of this discussion....

[Radius]

95. Right..

Right-wingers are the only ones who own guns right?

Fetish..time to ban ball gags and dildos..

[FeebMaster]

96. You should come down to the dungeon

You could learn all sorts of interesting things about gun owners, like how they're all racists and that sort of thing.

[MrBenchley]

99. Good thing gun nuts can distinguish between

their guns and their sex lives (snicker)...

[hansolsen]

142. Trash hunters and you trash America. We are America. You cost the Dem

Party every time you open your mouth.

[MrBenchley]

158. And you need assault weapons to get the deer out of those armored bunkers

And hunting's a dying sport, and justly so.

[hansolsen]

165. John Kerry is a gun owner and a hunter and celebrates that fact. He

isn't a trigger happy gun nut is he?? Get with the program. Pull up anchor -- you are costing us votes and selling guns to people who ordinarily would not buy a gun.

[MrBenchley]

166. And the NRA still attacks him...

but then they're dishonest right wing fuckwits.

"John Kerry is a gun owner and a hunter and celebrates that fact. He isn't a trigger happy gun nut is he??"
No, and in fact he supports gun control, including the assault weapons ban and closing the gun industry loophole.

"Get with the program."
Gee, I am with the program....go read the first post again. Or read the party platform. Or watch the MoveOn ad.

[hansolsen]

187. No he doesn't support "gun control", the generic monster that is costing

us votes by the millions. He supports some very limited and very specific gun legislation, and even that is looooow priority. The reason the NRA still attacks Kerry is because he knows many knot heads in the Dem base still have not seen the error of their ways on gun control.

[MrBenchley]

188. Peddle it walking, hans....

The NRA are right wing scum....and Kerry does support gun control.

[hansolsen]

192. There may be a few right wing nut cases in the NRA, but the vast majority

of NRA members and hunters who may not be members but support gun rights, are fine upstanding members of the community, and many of us are Democrats, and liberal Democrats at that.

When bungling idiots who know next to nothing about guns, write legislation that wouldn't past muster in a kindergarten class, and start messing around with stuff beyond their level of expertise, it brings scorn down on the whole Dem Party.

[GizDog]

50. OK

I have a pre 1994 AR15. I also have a post 1994 AR15. What is the difference?

1) Flash suppressor. This does not make the rifle invisible to anyone. It merely makes it not blind the shooter when fired of an evening.

2) Bayonet Lug. At least in my neck of the woods, that have yet to be a single drive by bayoneting.

3) Adjustable stock. I can legally buy a fixed position stock that is the same length as an adjustable stock set at it's shortest position. It's every bit as concealable as the adjustable stock and every bit as shootable.

What do you, and the honorable senator from California find so threatening about these cosmetic features?

"Assault weapons" are not machine guns. There is significant BATF and FBI red tape, as well as a $200 tax) that one much subject him/her self to in order to legally buy a machine gun. I don't care what Ted said on ABC last night.

Is this really the hill we want to die on? How many seats were lost in 1996 directly attributed to this bad law?

[Radius]

52. FYI

No legally owned class 3 weapon has ever been used in a crime..

[DoNotRefill]

149. actually, one has.

in Dayton, Ohio, in 1986. It was a privately owned gun used by a police officer (as opposed to his departmentally issued machinegun)that was apparently used to kill an informant.

[MrBenchley]

58. What a pantload....

"How many seats were lost in 1996 directly attributed to this bad law?"
None...

It's an NRA talking point that the 1994 midterm elections were influenced by the assault weapons ban...and they love to drag a quote from Clinton out of context as support. In fact, the scumbags in the gun lobby funneled money to the GOP's "Contract on America" and that's what Clinton is referring to. And if you check it out, Newt's dishonest contract has not a single word about guns in it.

[GizDog]

62. I am

one of the scumbags in the gun lobby I guess. Shall I leave your party? Is my gun collection enough to out weigh how I feel and vote on other issues? It's all about personal freedom. How do you feel about gay and lesbian marriage? How do you feel about the choice for a woman to choose to have an abortion? How do you feel about feeding the poor or any other "social issue"? We can't have it both ways. I'm tired of "Pro Choice" not including me!

[MrBenchley]

66. Eight whole posts, all on guns....

"It's all about personal freedom."
No, it's all about a scummy industry endangering the public...and folks peddling a bunch of right wing talking points.

[Radius]

69. FACTS

do not choose sides.
The ban is a joke, It has no effect on the purchase of semi-auto rifles or large capacity magazines.

[MrBenchley]

70. Sure wish you had some FACTS....

like the actual content of the bill before Congress....

[Radius]

74. You Link

your bill. That way no one is confused.

[MrBenchley]

80. Gee, why can't you?

It couldn't be that, as your tediously repeated question shows, you have NO IDEA what the bill before Congress says, could it?

[Radius]

87. Which

one of the bills before congress:
this one?
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.5006:

or this one

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:S.2634:

You link your bill or drop it.

[MrBenchley]

90. Both your links are dead....

and neither is the one before Congress right now....

[Radius]

94. pardon

http://clerk.house.gov/floorsummary/floor.html

http://www.senate.gov/

You are welocme to link to your bill from these sites.

[MrBenchley]

100. Been there, done that...

I've already said SB 1431 and HR 2038, way back up in 32.

[Radius]

103. Hahaha

Message:
I have a better chance of winning the lottery than that ever passing.

If that goes to the president before November we have NO chance. Do you understand that, good bye Kerry/Edwards.

Section SEC. 2; (H) (ii) and (b)(42): "The term 'pistol grip' means a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip."

Like the 11-87 shotgun I use to shoot skeet, the grip right behing the trigger.

[MrBenchley]

104. You keep on peddling that...

and I'll keep supporting the Democrats and public safety.....

[Radius]

105. Democrats

Not all democrats support that joke. I'm a democrat and think it is silly tripe written by people who have no understanding of firearms.
Murders use HANDGUNS.

Lets ban the most popular sporting shotgun in America. Uber left placating their constituents.

That will never (you how your chris rock said it) neeeveer pass.

[MrBenchley]

107. Gee, all but the Zell wing of the party do....

"Murders use HANDGUNS."
And 47% of Americans want those banned as well...and most days I'd agree with them.

"Lets ban the most popular sporting shotgun in America."
Drudge was trying to peddle that same rubbish yesterday. Such sweet playmates our "pro gun democrats" have....

[Radius]

111. Illeterate?

I posted the language from your bill. I din't see the drudge article but do own an 11-87 that falls under that description. Now called a SAW. Not to be confused with the machine gun called a SAW.

Someone should make a bill banning TLAa.

Like I said I've got my money on the mega millions.

Post a MSM poll for the 47% link, I assume nationwide?

Funny how social problems are never brought up with gun control. You just going to throw the people who continue to do business on the street with guns in jail. Better start building..

[MrBenchley]

153. I'll let "illeterate" speak for itself....

"Funny how social problems are never brought up with gun control."
On the contrary....it's the liberal Democratic politicians pushing gun control who also offer real solutions for social problems...and the sort of right wing fuckwits pushing that bogus "gun rights" crap...the Tom DeLays and Bill Frists who offer only measures to make things worse....

[GizDog]

76. yep

That's what's important to me.

I'm not a true believer in what the democratic party has become. I live in Indiana not LA. I hunt and shoot and drive an H2 and a Porsche. I also support my friends right to marry and my girlfriend had an abortion. However, the biggest threat to me, is that the big city party leaders are constantly working on gun legislation.

Get out of the city and you'll find lots of us gun carrying democrats. It's just that the coasts get all of the attention.

I am a supporter of Evan Bayh. He gets an ear full from me on guns as well.

I shoot competition sporting clays. It's not unusual for me to have 10,000 or more shotgun shells at a time. When you shoot as many as 1000 in a weekend it pays to buy in bulk. By several of my elected officials way of thinking that should make me a criminal.

So, there you have it. My issue with the democrats is guns. I don't have many other problems. Does that mean I shouldn't post here?

[hansolsen]

144. No, it means you are the base of the Dem Party. Stick around and help

take back the Dem party from people who try to legislate beyond their level of knowledge.

[Radius]

67. Its bridge is leaky...has no concept of the topic(NT)

[hansolsen]

143. Too many seats, that's how many. Wake up, DU. Smell the coffee. N/T

[saigon68]

64. Kicking

This is getting exciting

[Mr.Green93]

78. this is not over

she may yet prevail. The BATF may be able to keep the ban by regulation.

[FeebMaster]

85. How?

The BATF may be able to keep the ban by regulation.

[MrBenchley]

86. Furthermore, if it does expire

we'll be pushing for a new ban in the new congress.....

[Radius]

88. We Who?(NT)

[MrBenchley]

91. We the Democrats...

You know, the party of Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer...the one that put banning assault weapons and closing the gun show loophole in the Party platform....

[GinsNet]

97. MrBenchley are you some sophmore from a Junior College...

I have lost about 10 minutes of my life reading the arguments from both sides and there appears to be something very interesting that has been pointed out a few times.

MrBenchley, Look up some courses in Logic, (start with 101, please) then you might want to join the debate team!

FYI folks MrBenchleys whole fundemental arguement of his is childish and called an "Ad Hominum" attack, and is considered a "No No". regularly used by beginners who can't marshal any facts to support their position.

I am just pointing out the obvious that an ad hominem fallacy consists of saying that someone's argument is wrong purely because of something about the person rather than about the argument itself. Merely insulting another person in the middle of otherwise rational discourse does not necessarily constitute an ad hominem fallacy. It must be clear that the purpose of the characterization is to discredit the person offering the argument, and, specifically, to invite others to discount his arguments.

In laymen’s terms MrBenchley has always been fundamentally attacking the members not the members argument. I really have nothing to say to you MrBenchley as your argument/agenda is obvious to the majority reading this forum. You have acted like a spoiled brat and have not grown up to realize it is people like you that kill any momentum for the rest of us democrats win back what we have lost. You are the reason why we will lose this election if you don’t get your priorities straight before the election.

I for one can see that this AWB was just that, a “Feel Good Law” and that you can still walk into a gun store and buy or order one from the manufacturer. I saw on the ABC last night where they discussed the AWB but showed mostly machine guns in which they are not assault weapons (semi-auto; from my understanding of what the gentlemen that have posted said) Peter Jennings and his people lied to the public again on our behalf. It just gets worse, people thinking they are helping our cause are actually killing every person hanging on the fence. I also want to say that we LOST many seats due to this bill being passed. Now if we are going to fight to win the House back we need to accept that Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer could give a dam about anyone except themselves.

I did some reading on Feinstein, did you know as much as she hates assault weapons and weapons in general, do you know she has a permit California conceal permit to carry a firearm. She is a hypocrite and until we get better women in the senate who are looking after you and me not her and her we are going to continue to lose the House and Senate!

I have also been thinking what Zell had to say concerning the Democratic party and how they are so rabid and doing everything wrong at all costs. I do believe we are in for a long hard battle if people like MrBenchley act the way they do. I know this was long but I had to get a few things off my chest. I have been reading for years but I just thought I post my opinion of how I have seen this thread go to waste in a hurry.

Good Day!

:kick:

[MrBenchley]

101. No...but I'm familiar with that peculiar defective RKBA "logic"

"I really have nothing to say to you MrBenchley"
And yet you sure as shit turned into chatty Cathy....

"Peter Jennings and his people lied to the public again on our behalf"
Lo the poor RKBAers....the press lies, politicians lie, liberals like me lie...the only people who tell the truth are "honest folk" like Bill Frist, Tom DeLay and Dick Cheney (snicker)

"we need to accept that Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer could give a dam about anyone except themselves"
What was that about an ad hominem argument?

"I did some reading on Feinstein, did you know as much as she hates assault weapons and weapons in general, do you know she has a permit California conceal permit to carry a firearm. "
Wow...so I guess those claims that she is "anti-gun" are just so much horseshit. Can't say I'm surprised to find the RKBA side being dishonest again.

"I have also been thinking what Zell had to say concerning the Democratic party and how they are so rabid and doing everything wrong at all costs. "
Yeah....that made me laugh out loud when he was ranting like that at an audience made up entirely of raving hate-filled loonies....and speaking of doing everything worng...how'd you like what he did after his speech?

[bobbyboucher]

134. Nice contribution.

Look at it this way, now you don't have to cry like a baby because society took away your toys.

We should all be thankful that the ban is being lifted, now the crying will stop. At least some of it anyway.

[MrBenchley]

160. Of course, since according to these "honest" "pro gun democrats"

the ban covered only cosmetics, they're doing all this mewling and puking so their guns can look scarier....

Hard to do anything with somebody claiming his own argument is childish and superficial...except sit back and laugh your ass off.

[shadu]

181. sounds like you are a zell miller fan

are you... a zell miller fan?

[GizDog]

92. how?

How can the BATF enforce a law that is not a law any more? Furthermore, once it expires all of the firearms manufactured in the past 10 years will be as if they were manufactured before 1994.

A sunset clause is exactly that. There will have to be a completely new bill, law etc...

[beevul]

93. Heh...

From the article...

"and then blamed the National Rifle Association for orchestrating the ban's nearly certain expiration at midnight Monday."


Was this article co-written by the folks at CSGV?

This article conveniently leaves out the fact that the AWB was DESIGNED to sunset, and written as-such, before it was passed into law.

It was the drafters of the AWB, along with those that passed it into law, combined with the compromises necessary TO pass it into law, that "orchestrated" its expiration.

If Feinstein wants to place blame for failure of renewal, that would be one thing, but blaming expiration, is simply playing politics.

What a misleading article.

[pelagius]

106. The Second Amendment guarantees

...a right to keep and bear arms within the context of a "militia". It was understood by the Framers that the role of this militia was to guard against a tyrannical government.

(What constitutes a "militia" is the debatable issue here. Some say the various National Guards (state militias) and some say all adult male citizens are understood, in the usage of the 18th century, to be part of the militia.)

Therefore, it seems to me, if the Second Amendment guarantees any individual right to keep and bear firearms, firearms used by an army, militia or other organized military force would be an especially protected class.

So one's right to own a hunting rifle or target pistol might be in doubt, but there is no doubt (if you believe adult citizens constitute the US militia) that the Constitution protects your right to keep and bear a

FULLY-AUTOMATIC AR-15 SERVICE RIFLE

and perhaps a grenade or three, just like any soldier would be issued.

[bobbyboucher]

126. Brilliant.

Any other pearls of wisdom?

[pelagius]

152. Before Swine? Naaah...

I suspect this might be a little too subtle, so let me spell it out:

The Second Amendment isn't about hunting, trap shooting, home defense, or what people need or want in their houses. It's about the right of the people to take up arms against tyranny. The Framers believed a "militia" was a bulwark against despotism.

The real Second Amendment issue isn't what type of gun is "useful" or "necessary", it's about who constitutes the "militia". In fact, the Supreme Court has done very little to clarify the Second Amendment, other than to assert (in the 1930s, IIRC) that the "militia" is the National Guard of a state.

[DoNotRefill]

109. Dead horse...

why do we keep beating dead horses?

[bobbyboucher]

123. Some things just aren't necessary in society.

Can someone please tell me what the necessity of the items that are banned are?

Why does anyone need them? Are they replaceable?

I don't think our society needs them.

[DoNotRefill]

128. Since when has need been determinative of civil rights?

Do people NEED to vote? Do women NEED to have an abortion? Do you really NEED to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures? Do you NEED to not have a confession beaten out of you by the police? See where NEED as a determinative factor gets you?

[bobbyboucher]

131. Well, that was hysterical.

Do you need anthrax? Do you need ricin? Do you need C4?

See, I can be ridiculous too.

Why do you need anything in that ban?

[DoNotRefill]

133. is anthrax, ricin, or C4 considered "arms"?

Didn't think so.

[bobbyboucher]

136. Do you need them?

Mensa.

[Radius]

137. I can buy explosives

legally. How I use them determines my need. Do I need them to remove stumps or obstructions from waterways. no, but my having something that can hurt or kill someone is does not mean I'm going to blow up something I shouldn't?

Need is relative.

[DoNotRefill]

140. do most Americans need to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures?

most don't, because they're not accused of crimes. Is that a reason to get rid of the 4th Amendment?

[MrBenchley]

167. Too funny, refill....

Please show us where anybody has proposed getting rid of well regulated militias.....

[hansolsen]

145. This law is opposed because it is fundamentally impractical in the sense

that what is banned is functionally equivalent to literally hundreds of millions of other firearms that are equally powerful and dangerous. People who know guns oppose this law because it is so obviously stupid it makes your head hurt.

[John219]

147. Good riddance

to a bad law.
John

[MrBenchley]

169. Gee, hans...if those guns are equivalent to legal ones

you don't fucking need them. After all, you can muddle by with legal guns.

[Romulus]

173. good job, hansolsen

Q: If they are the equivalent of legal ones, what's the rationale behind banning them . . . . . ?

A:There is no rationale, except for being a stepping stone to banning Kerry's legal Remington 11-87 . . . . . that fires the same ammo in the same exact way as the banned shotguns.

[hansolsen]

146. Diane Feinstein will be remembered for two things: Gun control and the

war in Iraq. Both have been disasters for both the country and the Dem Party. There is a battle on for the soul of the Democratic Party. In that battle Diane Feinstein and I are on different sides.

[MrBenchley]

161. The War in Iraq?

Yeah who can forget when she stood up in her State of the Union address and claimed Iraq had all those WMDs...no wait, that wasn't her.

"There is a battle on for the soul of the Democratic Party."
Funny...seems to me more like a tiny band of trigger happy fanatics pissing and moaning as usual.

"In that battle Diane Feinstein and I are on different sides."
I'm sure Dianne Feinstein is happier than you are.

Here's one side...


And here's the other...

[hansolsen]

168. Diane Feinstein was one of the lead Dem congresscritters who swore up

and down there was WMD under every palm tree in Iraq. She is one of the people who apparently sees the war in Iraq as the war to make the world safe for Israeli settlers to take over the "Holy Lands". She rolled out a red carpet for Bush to strut down on his way to war.

If you support the war in Iraq, Diane Feinstein is your hero; you can have her.

And those of us who want to let the AWB issue die a quiet death are not interested in owning an AWB -- we are interested in stopping the bleeding suffered by Dem voters abandoning the Party over this issue.

[MrBenchley]

172. Don't let any FACTS get in your way, hans.....

"SEPTEMBER 5, 2002
STATEMENT OF U.S. SENATOR DIANNE FEINSTEIN
More Questions Than Answers on Iraq
Mrs. FEINSTEIN. Madam President, I rise today to express my growing concern that we may shortly be faced with a decision to unilaterally invade another nation-state, and that is the State of Iraq.
This concern has been heightened by the news of today's assassination attempt of Afghan President Hamid Karzai in Kandahar. Earlier on, a car bomb exploded in central Kabul, killing at least 22 people.
This event, in my view, underscores the point that our primary focus must remain on our immediate war on terrorism being waged in troubled Afghanistan, where our soldiers are on the front line. As a matter of fact, preliminary reports indicate it was Americans who took down the attempted assassins.
While I welcome President Bush's recent statement indicating he will seek congressional approval of such a use of force, I believe any action in Iraq at this time, without allied support, without United Nations support, and without a compelling case for just cause, would be both morally wrong and politically mistaken. "

http://feinstein.senate.gov/Speeches02/fs-iraq.htm

<sarcasm>Jeepers, listen to that saber-rattling....scary! </sarcasm>


"those of us who want to let the AWB issue die a quiet death are not interested in owning an AWB"
Yeah, it shows...(snicker)

[hansolsen]

186. That is sooooooo old. By October, 2002 she was voting in favor of IWR and

telling anyone who would listen that Saddam had WMD and was baaaaaaad.

She made have made a few noises about getting more allies on board, going through U.N., etc. but she wanted Saddam destroyed because he was a threat to Israel.

[MrBenchley]

190. Peddle it walking, hans....

[shadu]

180. that photo is frightening

I'll bet cheney hadn't cum that good since watching his last lynchin'

[MrBenchley]

184. Hope those aren't rented tuxes...

The idiot on the right (NRA president Kayne "We'll be working out of Bush's White House" Robinson) also looks like he's blowing his wad over Big Dick's long hard gun....(snicker)

[Moderator]

193. Further discussion of this topic

can be done in the justice and public safty forum. This thread has run it's course.