US withhold N. Korean blast data from Seoul

[TomClash]

Intelligence aides said that U.S. data, which would be critical to decipher what happened on Wednesday and Thursday, were not handed over to the U.S.-South Korea Combined Forces Command. Several South Korean intelligence officials said that normally the United States would have delivered time-sequenced analyses of the explosion North Korea, but that such information was not made available.

http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200409/12/200409122231504979900090209021.html

[acmavm]

1. Funny, not telling one of our major allies the scoop on a 'forest fire'.

Wonder what that means?

And the South Koreans say it's an explosion? What are them North Korean trees made out of anyway?

[jeff30997]

4. It's well known that...

North Korean trees are made of TNT. :)

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. aparently very high grade plutonium

if I am getting the gist of this correctly...

Gets worst than this... we are pulling troops out and aparently we are not gonig to play nice

As I said, the law of unintended consquences is gonna give us a nasty surprise (can we say a unified Korea by not so peaceful means and yes I am truly worst casing this)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

19. I see you're practicing a new Olympic sport: Jumping to Conclusions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. Nope just that the size of the cloud is consistent with

a nuclear explosion, low yield, or a very bad industrial accident... given teh date and localtion inpossible to determine either way, so as my EMS training takes over, worst case it

(San Juanico in Mexico City comes to mind... the force of that explosion was akin with a very low yield nuclear explosion)

[allemand]

10. Chosun Ilbo: Gov't Confirms 'Non-Nuclear' N. Korean Explosion

http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200409/200409120026.html

So that conclusion is based on their own data, I guess.

[Javaman]

45. It may not have been a nuke but what it could have been was...

a test of a detonation device.

The basic design of any atomic bomb (hydrogen is a whole other shooting match), is you need to develop a device that will implode down into the nuclear material. Back in the Manhattan project days, such devices were tested by the US. They are based on a series of "lens'" that focus the detonation inward.
They can be very sizable explosions.
The ones used by the US in WWII were TNT.
More than likely, it was something similar.
Usually after tests like this, they study the results. And more than likely, if in fact, that's what this was, a test should follow within the year.

[jeff30997]

2. Well if they retain information that means they have something to...

Hide,as usual.So my guess is it was a nuclear blast.If not why the secrecy ?

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. And this woudl affect Goerge Bush exactly how

That is why they are hiding it, what is mazing to me is the spin in the US press, it is pure propaganda like you used to see in oh the old USSR

[Child_Of_Isis]

9. Yup!

This is all the proof that I need. It's like our media lay in waiting for the news to break from elsewhere then it began throwing out its own prepared counter news.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

15. Because they want people like yourself to believe the "blast"...

...had nuclear origins.

If it was a nuclear explosion of some sort, the foreign press would have been all over the story. We're not the only country capable of detecting radiation:

List of countries with nuclear weapons
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_nuclear_weapons>

[blackcat77]

23. Because Bush loves secrets

His administration has been obsessed with secrecy and paranoia since they took power and this would be SOP for them.

[Ohio rules]

36. Send in OSHA

find out if the munitions factories were completely flattened in that valley.

[Nimrod]

3. Other nations are such children

I wonder how much more contempt the rest of the world is going to take from us?

[21winner]

5. No news yet.

An air test will provide the proof. It can't be covered up. That will be the story.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. You think China will share?

Japan may, Canada definitely, our own government? Yeah right... can I interest you in that nice beach front property in AZ

[allemand]

14. The blast happened on Thursday.

Both South Korea and Japan are advanced countries, capable of detecting nuclear fallout. This would be all over the news already.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

17. I don't think anyone wants to read a rational conclusion.

[Quetzal]

11. Does Bush really think that he can hide this one?

[NNN0LHI]

34. Remember how long the joint Israeli/S. African nuke tests were kept secret?

No US government official will admit to them taking place to this day. Long time.

Don

[BadGimp]

38. ahh Yes he does think he can hide it

and he will succeed...that's my guess

[hlthe2b]

12. This whole thing just reeks... Of course we KNOW whether or not it

was a nuclear blast, yet Powell was on saying they did not think it was.... Good God...And the press does not even question that?!!!!!!!!!

[LizW]

13. Well, that makes Colin Powell a liar

He said this morning on MTP that we were working with all the surrounding nations around N Korea to contain N Korea's nuclear development. Apparently we're not working quite as closely with those nations as Powell would have us believe.

[IndianaGreen]

16. The radiation detectors in neighboring countries should be off scale

if that was a nuclear explosion. I don't think the South Koreans and the Japanese would keep quiet in order to protect the Bush regime. If it really was a nuclear accident, we will find out soon enough no matter how many denials we get from Washington.

[truthisfreedom]

29. there would be many more detectors, one would think, than gov't provided

ones. i'm certain there's industrial radiation detectors as well as personal ones that concerned scientists have set up, plus think of all of the research facilities at universities... you'd think we would be seeing some news from somewhere by now.

[salin]

18. Anyone remember the flap about the admin sitting on NK nuke dev.

in order to get their IWR passed? I wrote a reminder post in GD (and am too lazy to repeat it - so instead... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2343641 )

Perhaps it is relevant enough to remind those in the media of that story.. as it points to yet another dot in the picture of an administration that consistently puts national security issues second to immediate political gains.

[Borgnine]

20. If it WAS a nuclear blast...

...why would the Bush Administration be trying to cover it up? Wouldn't this be the thing they were waiting for, to proclaim loudly that they'll protect us and John Kerry would lead us into a nuclear winter?

[salin]

22. Because it leaves the question open

why did they push to go to Iraq (where there were no WMDs) under the guise of a "gathering threat" (and allusions to a nuclear cloud)... when they had information at the time of the IWR (that they suppressed until after the vote) that NK was stepping up its Nuclear efforts. IF this is a nuclear blast - it looks very bad for the Bushies. Also rather makes Cheney's... it will be LESS safe under Kerry message lose some of its valence if all of these bad and dangerous things are likely to happen under bush/cheney as well...

[lapfog_1]

30. Meanwhile, back at the NK ranch

On October 6, 2002 President Bush addressed the nation, warning that
the Iraqi dictator must not be permitted to threaten America and
the world with atomic weapons. "If the Iraqi regime is able to
produce, buy, or steal an amount of highly-enriched uranium a
little larger than a single softball," Bush said, "it could have
a nuclear weapon in less than a year. And if we allow that to
happen, a terrible line would be crossed."

National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice told media, "We don't
want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud."

-------------------------------------------------------

Remember that we are SAFER with Bush/Cheney running the show!
Nope, no mushroom clouds here. Just forest fires. No reason
to lie about this or cover it up!

/sarcasm/

[bpilgrim]

24. this reality eruption would expose the LIE that the world is SAFER with *

and the neoCONs at the helm.

peace

[Red Fox]

37. Because that would be a lie they won't be able to suppress

If that was a nuclear blast and NK getting rowdy, what do you think the US will do? Absolutely nothing. Politically, economically, militaristic, attacking a NK with live nukes is a BAD thing to do.

It will be Vietnam but 10 times worse. No President, especially 2 months before the elections, is going to say something that suicidal.

[Fleshdancer]

21. So we pull our troops from the region and now we don't share info?

Did South Korea do something to piss off the administration or something? What the hell is going on?

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. law of unintended consequences

mostly and incomptence at the highest level and there are people out there who still defend George

[blackcat77]

26. Yes they did -- remember the demonstrations?

And of course there's the whole "sunshine" and re-unification efforts which run contrary to Bush's "us and them" mindset.

Bush probably would have opposed German re-unification if he'd been in power then.

[cliss]

28. I believe that is the case.

There was a coup a while back, where we meddled (once again) and installed someone more friendly to US-interests.

It's my understanding that South Korea wants to reunite with N. Korea. We're seen as meddlers, standing in the way of a lovely reunion (?). Please correct me on this. I've been far too occupied with Iraq to pay attention to our back yard.

It's dangerous nonetheless.

[DeepModem Mom]

31. Any reports of any atmospheric tests being done? nt

[pinniped]

32. No surprise here. The * regime also "allegedly" withheld reports...

that that South Korean dude was taken hostage a few months ago.

[Robb]

33. I've been reading it's impossible to have been a nuke blast

...seismic stuff doesn't match. That doesn't take radiation sniffers, just run-of-the-mill seismologists. You measure that kind of thing from the other side of the globe.

Non-critical explosions are another matter, possible release of radiation etc. But impossible for it to have been a nuclear explosion in the weapons sense.

[dave123williams]

44. Seismometers...

A seismometer can't tell the difference between 20,000 tons of TNT and a 20Ktn nuclear blast.

[sofa king]

35. I'm wondering....

That blast happened in a heavily militarized district (as if they all aren't that way). It might have been a small a-bomb. Or, it could have been an industrial accident.

Or, it could have been a big-ass ammunition dump.

Which in combination with that giant train explosion back in April might mean something... interesting.

I wonder if maybe someone is trying to send the Dear Leader a message: that his country isn't as airtight as he would like everyone to believe it is. It's impossible to accurately guess who might be behind such incidents if they are in fact acts of aggression rather than accidents.

But one thing we can be reasonably certain about is that if the United States says it's a forest fire, it's not a forest fire. America now has a firmly established international reputation for telling anything but the naked truth, and our response here is no exception.

[0rganism]

39. So, if it's not nuclear, what is it? Tactical Farters? Mecha-Streissand?

I would sure like to know more. What kind of non-nuclear explosions are the North Koreans making craters with these days?


Save us, Gamera Sidney Poitier!

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. ok, ok I confess

it was my Atlas going critical.....


:-)

Bad reference to Mecha game... but hey it DOES HAVE a nuclear reactor.

[meisje]

41. Here's some data

http://www.houshasen.tsuruga.fukui.jp/gie5f_f_e1000.html

I'm a little slow on my Korean, so I'm not sure what it is. I figure the blue line represents Kim's middle finger!

[psychopomp]

42. This is data from the nuke plant in Fukui, Japan

I can't tell much more than that as my kanji skills are not up to snuff. Anyhow, it is data regarding radiation readings in Fukui Prefecture.

I do not know what the blue spike is all about but it may be only related to nuke plants in Fukui.

[ochazuke]

47. The blue line is rainfall or precipitation

Kousuiryo in Japanese.

[Rex]

43. I've read the threads and links and have one question to ask

just what kind of explosion causes a 'cloud' to rise 2 miles into the sky and is powerful enough to set off seismic instruments on the other side of the planet?

Don't feed me that MOAB crap, I read the links and the biggest cloud from our MOAB went a few hundred feet (far shy of 2 miles). Not saying it was a nuke (I totally agree, EVERYONE would be on this issue like flies on shit), but how much conventional payload would it take to make an explosion of that magnitude?

[sofa king]

46. An ammunition dump would do it.

As I suggested before, touching off an ammo dump generally creates amongst the very largest explosions.

In Afghanistan in May of 2002 British Marines touched off four caverns of munitions suspected to have been cached by al Qaeda. Here's some of the description from CNN:

______________

Eyewitnesses said a 50-foot roar of flame burst from each of the cave entrances, and dozens of jets of tracer bullets shot all over the valley.

An enormous cloud of smoke and dust rose around 1,000 feet into the air and enveloped the valley, blocking out the sunlight.

A journalist at the scene said: "We watched from the closest vantage point of one kilometre away, and were still caught by a shower of dirt and earth that lasted 20 seconds."

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/central/05/11/afghan.caves/index.html?related
________________

Ammunition dumps have in the past been highly sought-after targets. My father's good friend was present at what he called "the biggest fireworks show I wish I never saw" when the Viet Cong touched off an American ammunition dump, causing significant temporary disruption and casualties. (He remembers one officer commenting to another, "that sonofabitch in supply told me we didn't have any more green flares!")

I would also point out that another card-carrying member of the Axis of Evil has recently suffered a massive and somewhat suspicious industrial catastrophe. In Iran in February, another train loaded with fuel and chemicals ran away, crashed, exploded, and recorded a 3.6 on Iranian seismological instruments.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/02/18/world/main600853.shtml

There is a way to further magnify the destruction capability of conventional munitions and other products, which I don't feel inclined to repeat right now. Let's just say that "X" marks the spot and hopefully I'll need not remind you that plenty of us considered the possibility long before it happened.