Witnesses: Apache fired on crowd

[leftchick]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/9BE69E7B-058D-404F-81CB-43816BA7A5F0.htm


<snip>

Most of the young Iraqi men and boys mingling around the burning wreckage of a US armoured car in Baghdad were unfazed by the clattering of an American helicopter gunship overhead. Moments later they were under fire.

Some had pointed to the Apache helicopter. Others jogged slowly from the burning Bradley fighting vehicle, which the US military said had been set ablaze by a bomb. None expected it would shoot at them.


Standing next to him, Fuad's colleague and friend Mazin Tumaizi, a producer for Dubai-based al-Arabiya, was killed as he prepared to give a stand-up piece to camera.

"I looked at the sky and saw a helicopter at very low altitude", Fouad said. "Just moments later I saw a flash of light from the Apache. Then a strong explosion", he said.

[madrchsod]

1. remember this the pilot called in to get

permission to fire and the order was given to kill .war crime. the targets were clearly civilians.

[ssimmons]

4. War crime? Clearly civilians?

We may want to wait for an unbiased news report before condeming our troops.

[liberalhistorian]

8. I fully agree, let's

wait for the full story before automatically jumping in and condemning the military.

[gratuitous]

12. I await an investigation with bated breath

Let's see, the military will investigate itself, no one on the ground will be interviewed, or will be too justifiably scared to talk to some uniformed buzzcut, and the whole incident will be deemed inconclusive or the military will totally clear itself of all charges.

Anybody wanna bet?

[Individualist]

23. ABC news

this evening showed the reporter being killed. http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040912_1418.html

Also reported by BBC. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3648786.stm

[ssimmons]

25. Lovely bunch

"Iraqis swarmed around it, cheering, throwing stones and waving the black and yellow sunburst banner of Iraq's most-feared terror organization."

Why would these people support Iraq's most-feared terror organization? There seems to be a lack of innocence all around.

[Individualist]

27. Two children were among the dead

Is that what you call "winning hearts and minds"? The vermin in the White House belong in prison!

[ssimmons]

28. Who lets their children play around burning military vehicles?

Is that what you call caring for the children? How do you know the kids were not killed when the terrorists blew up their bomb at the vehicle? These terrorists don't care how many they kill when they blow up their bombs.

[Individualist]

29. Playing?

Who the hell said they were playing around the vehicle. Your agenda is clear, so slither on back to where you came from. The worst terrorists are your filthy Bush gang, and if there's any justice in this world, they'll all end up in prison.

[Occulus]

40. answer: the same kind of parents who

have their kids tote a "god hates fags" or a "AIDS cures fags" sign.

We have them here, too.

[Logansquare]

55. Good point. Killing children of careless parents will now be authorized.

Half the kids in my neighborhood would be wiped out using your logic.

[leftchick]

58. Here is a fine example of US Terrorism for you....

The US is worse than Saddam. At least he did not promise them freedom and Democracy as he slaughtered them.






Omar Ali stands next to walls stained with blood including that of his brothers, at their apartment in Haifa Street, Iraq (news - web sites), Monday Sept. 13, 2004. The stains occurred when injured people scrambled into the building for help on Sunday, after a U.S. helicopter shot at cheering crowd gathered near a burning Bradley fighting vehicle, next to their apartment block in Haifa street. His brother lost his eyes to shrapnel wounds as he was watching the incident from the balcony. (AP Photo/Khalid Mohammed)

[Lerkfish]

61. welcome to DU

enjoy your visit! :)

I do not think an already commandeered tank rendered unusable was posing any threat to a helicopter gunship, was it?

And, just so you know, good luck finding anywhere in iraq that is not a war-torn area.

blame the victims much? that's republican logic.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ze_dscherman]

41. No matter whom they support

There's no reason to bomb or shoot them. Its against any rule of war.

Why they support a "terror organization"? Because, from their viewpoint, this "terror organization" is a liberation force that hits the "terrorists" - those that invaded their country, killed tortured their fellow citizens, and even shoots at civilians?

[mike_c]

48. you need to get your head out of the sand and understand...

...that the U.S. authorities and their puppet government in Iraq call every insurgent and resistance group a "terrorist organization." These are mostly ordinary people fighting to get the occupiers out of their country, much as I presume you or I would do in their place.

[private_ryan]

49. if someone invades your town and tells you what to do

what would you do, greet them with flowers?

[Ms. Clio]

36. Yeah, because reporters from several news organizations

And BBC video just aren't good enough evidence from which to draw any conclusions.

God forbid we should condemn the military that is occupying a foreign country and has already killed and tortured thousands of civilians.

That would just be so wrong.

[Voltaire99]

42. LOL! Nice substitute for thinking

Wait for the "full story"? And who is going to give you the "full story," my dear little historian? The Pentagon? The New York Times?

Stop waiting: get off your indecisive ass and take a look at the BBC's footage of the crowd being attacked.

[krkaufman]

26. Yes. A rush to judgement is what got us in this mess in the first place.

I *do* believe that civilians were fired-upon, but also figure it likely that armed insurgents were within the crowd, as well.

Regardless of the blame, it is certainly safe to add this incident to the growing number of events inflaming widespread hatred of the US -- and not just among radical Muslims. This war, from the start, preempted any hope we had of building allegiance with moderate Arabs and Muslims, expanding the operational range of Al Qaeda by an untold degree.

[rman]

50. "unbiased news report" ?

How do you know it is unbiased? When it is not condemning to the troops?
And who issues such news reports? US media?

[TX-RAT]

53. the targets were clearly civilians?

How could they tell?

[Logansquare]

57. I don't know...maybe the children and the guy with the news camera

They would strike me as being civilian

[TX-RAT]

60. How can you tell who's who, when there are no uniforms.

We had the same problem in Vietnam. You don't know who's an enemy.

[The Magistrate]

62. That Is One Reason, Sir, It Is Better Not To Court Such Conflicts As This

The laws of war rather frown on the "Kill them all and let God sort them out!" approach to the difficulty....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[BeFree]

2. Had too...

The US is stated as saying they had to blow the tank up to protect the innocents....

Man, that pilot must have been pissed to shoot that missile into a crowd of people. He must have known many roundabouts would be hurt.

If this is the kind of protecting we continue to commit in Iraq, we are doomed.

[Kagemusha]

3. US claims it was a Kiowa. Big deal.

And frankly..

This is an Israeli-style hit job.

Know and shudder.

[The Magistrate]

5. Nonesense, Sir

This obsession of some with viewing Israel as the sum of all evil combines the most distressing features of low humor and sloppy thinking. It cannot be viewed as serious commentary, and those who use the deaths of human beings for grinding personal axes can never claim the moral superiority they desire to display.

In times and places of battle, Sir, sensible people avoid the flaming wreckage....

"The eagerness of green troops for battle is not to be relied on."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[liberalhistorian]

6. Well, Israel may not be

the "sum of all evil", but it also sure isn't the bastion of non-discriminatory freedom and democracy that it and its supporters claim, either, especially not since the hard-right nutball Likud party has come into full power.

[JoFerret]

7. Either way....hearts and minds

.

[newyorican]

9. That's odd...

To take a statement (erroneous or not) of calling this incident an, "Israeli style hit..." and morphing that into, "viewing Israel as the sum of all evil", appears to be rather sloppy thinking on it's own. Which form of sloppy thinking is the most distressing will be left to the reader, as it should be...

[The Magistrate]

10. All Trail Histories Behind Them, Sir

"Straws show how the wind blows."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[newyorican]

13. Ah yes...

Then such histories and hysterias are best dealt with head on and directly. After all, "there is no greater measure of ones character, that what he sees in the world around him".

[The Magistrate]

16. "Surer Window Into A Man's Heart..." Sir

If you are going to indulge in quotes....

"On the whole, I'd rather be in Philadelphia."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[newyorican]

20. I was paraphrasing...

I hope the meaning wasn't mangled.

Philly is nice to visit, but give me the city that never sleeps...

[The Magistrate]

22. It's A Hell Of A Town, Sir!

The Bronx is up, and the Battery's down....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BADSTARDS!"

[Kagemusha]

11. It's their country, their street, their neighborhood.

And frankly, I didn't mean what I said as serious commentary - this incident doesn't deserve any. It's butchery with missiles for the sake of sending a message written in blood.

It's blowback, US feeding Israel's style of street massacre, Israel in turn feeding the US' style of street massacre. This is the logic child of Somalia, the US' response to dancing in the streets: blow up the street.

And you expect serious commentary.

[The Magistrate]

15. 'Style Of Street Massacre', Sir?

Really a very odd claim; in the course of the conflict between Israel and Arab Palestine there have been damned few things that could properly be called that, and if you have followed that matter much, you ought to be aware of that. Put bluntly, the idea that the United States requires example or instruction in wholesale killing is both ludicrous and insulting; we are pretty good at that portion of the craft, and have a rich history of our own to draw on toward future exploits along that line.

You may not like it, Sir, but conquerors generally frown on dancing crowds about the corpses of their soldiery, and tend to do something about it, for it is a spectacle which rather undercuts the idea that the conqueror is in charge, and if enough people cease to imagine that to be the case, then soon enough the conqueror will not even be able to pretend to be in control of the situation. This is, if ordered, certainly a sign of desperation in the U.S. command, and simply one more sign, albeit an exceptionally bloody one, of the evident deterioration in the situation.

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Kagemusha]

17. It's the corpse of a BLOODY TANK.

No Americans were killed in the making of this film of Iraqis being dismembered. If it's all about killing people for not being politically correct towards the occupation of their country than indeed the US has sunk to the same level of remote control collective punishment.

[The Magistrate]

21. Do You, On Occasion, Sir, Pause To Think Deeply On Matters Of Governance?

It is worth attempting from time to time; things become much clearer....

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Kagemusha]

31. Yeah, I do it all the time, and that's why I get angry.

Because I know that even if I think about it deeply, the people running these operations, aren't. And that just sickens me.

[JSJ]

46. get fucked, good sir nt

[Radius]

51. Dirty Shoot

I am a centrist and generally give our people the benefit of the doubt. However after looking at the video it looks like we fired a heavy weapon into a crowd. At best it was a crowd mixed with combatants and civilians. At worst it was a bunch of gawkers.

They should have rolled in tanks to retrieve or destroy the Bradley.
This event does deserve an explanation.

[The Magistrate]

56. Quite Likely It Was, Sir

Nor would the course you have suggested necessarily have avoided further casualties to non-combatants; it could just as easily resulted in a fire-fight in the neighborhood that could well have injured a similar number of persons, as well as putting more of the occupier's soldiery and equipment at risk.

Once a thing like this has been begun, Sir, there generally are no "good" choices that can be made; that is in the nature of doing a bad thing....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Voltaire99]

43. Calling all moral dilletantes and Kipling impersonators...

"You may not like it, Sir, but conquerors generally frown on dancing crowds about the corpses of their soldiery, and tend to do something about it..."

Sad enough to make oneself an apologist for mass murder; sadder yet to do so in a rubbish antique prose style.

[leftchick]

44. lol....

"rubbish antique prose style"...indeed! :)

[The Magistrate]

54. 'Apologist', Mr. Voltaire?

The root meaning of the term is explainer, for the Greek meaning of the word at its root is simply an explaination. In that sense, perhaps, you could call me an apologist in this matter. It is a common error to conflate presenting the reason for a thing with a justification of the thing, but a moment's thought ought to suffice to show the two things are seperate and unrelated concepts. Whether persons support a thing or oppose it, they ought to be clear on what it actually is, and be entirely straight on that before engaging in moral judgements.

The United States is embarked on a colonial enterprise in Iraq, and seeks to impose a rule in accordance with the will of the present government of the United States on the people of that land. This attempt is being met with a guerrilla opposition by large segments of the Iraqi people, which is receiving certain useful, but not essential, assistance from foreign parties. Such conflicts naturally take on certain forms, imposed on the parties to it, whatever their initial wills in the matter might be, by the necessities attendant on such struggles.

This venture in Iraq was and is opposed by many here, myself included, on a variety of grounds, but one of the chief grounds for opposing it, in my view, has always been that such attempts at imposing colonial rule, and the resistance summoned into being against such an attempt, are always conducted in an atrocious wise, and bring tremendous suffering to many, generally for no reason sufficient to serve as a balancing justification for that suffering. There is, at bottom, no real tool available to either side in its hope to prevail save that of ensuring that the people of the place fear the side one is aligned with more than the other, for it is only this that will ensure the people cooperate with one side rather than the other. This can be achieved only by an escalating program of atrocity, reaching heights the other side cannot hope to match. Each side has particular advantages in such an endeavor to convince the populace fear of it ought to be the predominant feeling: the conqueror generally has technical advantages in weaponry, the resistance generally has a superior knowledge of the locale, and superior capabilities of invisibility. Each derives from these advantages the possibilty of impressing upon the people it can strike any time, anywhere, with devastating effect, and presses these advantages to impress that most firmly on the minds of the mass of the people. The side which does the most ruthless and terrifying job of that will win the struggle. That is what is uppermost in the thought of all participants, and that is what will guide their actions.

Once the Sage wrote: "The King has his executioner, but you are not that man. If you try and be him, it would be like trying to cut wood like a master carpenter. If you try and cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[aneerkoinos]

70. It's Greek to me

But 'apologeomai' does not mean just any explanation. It is allways speech of a defensive kind, trying to talk oneself or other out of a bad situation.

[Ms. Clio]

37. I have never expected serious commentary from that quarter

Especially when it comes to Israel.

[The Stranger]

65. It really is time to stop the denial.

The Israeli-Palestinian issue is the gaping moral, humanitarian, economic, and political wound in the Middle East, and, until some peace is accomplished there, it will continue to impact peace chances elsewhere in the Middle East.

To continue to deny this is simply to remain in a state of denial.

[Rose Siding]

14. Photos of carnage at this link

*graphic images
http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/cfw/FrameSet.aspx?s=ImagesSearchState|0|30|0|1|||0|0|0|0|1|ghaith+abdul-ahad|0|0&p=1

from Swopa-

Incidentally, the AP article adds this: "Getty Images said one of its freelance photographers, Ghaith Abdul Ahad, an Iraqi citizen, was also slightly wounded in the head while covering the clashes and the helicopter attack in Haifa street." That would be the same Ghaith (or "G.") who is a friend of Salam Pax, so Salam may have something to say about it when he returns from his current break.

Update: Thanks to an anonymous commenter for proving a link to Ghaith's photos from today's attack, showing the bodies of civilians lying in the street. I wonder how many of their families and neighbors believe that the U.S. came to Iraq to spread democracy and freedom.

http://www.needlenose.com/taxonomy/page/or/27

[Mr_Spock]

24. That story is just gross - more senseless killing to prevent stripping

of a US vehicle? How can we justify killing innocent human beings simply to prevent stripping of our vehicle. This is violent, vulgar, immoral, illegal and deserves to be discussed every single day. Saddam is gone - why are we still involved in a conflict anyway? Where are the rosepetals and candy? Where are the terrible aweful Weapons of Mass Destruction? We are all accomplices to murder and I for one am not going to let this murderer-in-chief use my name to kill innocents. He's NOT my President.

[Ms. Clio]

38. Just another transparently pathetic lie, anyway

The vehicle was engulfed in flames, thus nobody could even begin to "strip" it.

[Mr_Spock]

47. I'm so engraged by this senseless killing that WE are responsible

for as Americans. Thanks Bush, I feel horrible today because of you.

[muriel_volestrangler]

52. BBC interview with Ghaith Abdul Ahad here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/news.shtml?wato#
about 21 minutes into the programme, followed by a disgusting American forces spokesman trying to defend the killing of civilians at least 50m away from the vehicle as 'collateral damage'. The photographer said the helicopters made 3 attacks, returning to kill those who tried to help the injured from the first attack. Not surprisingly, the injured were left to die after that.

Ahad also works for The Guardian, so more details may turn up there.

[Bo]

18. Crusades are FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are only Heathens....

[comradebillyboy]

19. we got to see the al arabia reporter get killed on nbc news

this evening. he certainly looked surprised

[psychopomp]

30. Your comment is bafflingly stupid

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/cfw/FrameSet.aspx?s=ImagesSearchState%7C0%7C30%7C0%7C1%7C%7C%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C0%7C1%7Cghaith+abdul-ahad%7C0%7C0&p=1
Go ahead, get your jollies in!

[w4rma]

32. It was sarcasm.

I wish folks would remember to denote that more apparently.

[Guaranteed]

34. Some people, including me, have to make jokes to

deal with this kind of stuff.

[The Magistrate]

59. Indeed, Mr. Looney

Gallows humor is an essential to sanity....

"That's some catch, that catch-22!"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[OneBlueSky]

33. Iraqi lives are simply not as important as American lives . . .

in fact, they're not imporant at all . . . at least from BushCo's perspective . . . these fatalities are not seen as dead human beings, with families, loved ones, intellects, life histories, souls . . . they're just "collateral damage" and, as such, don't count for anything . . .

that's how OUR government sees dead Iraqis . . . the notion that these lives are in any way as important, as valuable, as worthy as American lives is foreign to them . . . which is why I am so ashamed of and disgusted with OUR government . . .

BushCo makes me want to puke . . .

[timtom]

39. I'm sorry I got here late...

too late to respond effectively to that tombstoned person.

But, I can only once again slap my forehead in disbelief and ask others of his ilk, "Gosh. Didja ever wonder what we're doing over there in the first place? I mean, call me naive and a sentimental old fool, but it seems if those soldiers weren't THERE, they might not have died in a car bomb explosion."

I'm not sure about those Iraqis, though. They LIVE there. I don't think it's any foreign military power's goddam business what they were doing.

[leftchick]

45. freeper logic says....

"we are fighting them there instead of here to protect our freedoms."

"Iraq is the front in the war on terra"

"The US is only killing terrorists"

..... and any other brilliant statement spewed by the chickenhawk* in chief.

:puke:

[nolabels]

71. In a sense yes

After Bushco and the cartel he represents ravages our already devastated eco-system and it's dwindling resources. Some these folks holding the bag on US dollars will be looking to cash in some of those deflated chips they got at the poker table. It won't be pretty and unless your stupid as chimpy, you know it's coming. Sorry to be so optimsitic but old jackasses have memories too. Pre-emptive war to secure oil fields, can some one just put that out there already :shrug:

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

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[Ms. Clio]

64. This must be straight from today's blast fax

So I won't even bother to ask how anyone could loot a burning vehicle.

It is beyond revolting that you believe that two children and a news reporter deserved to die to protect "U.S. property."

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

67. Us 'rats' aren't interested in your analysis of the video footage

Buh-bye.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

69. I think your stay will be of very short duration

So enjoy it while it lasts.