Ex-Guardsman: I Contacted Kerry Campaign

[Pirate Smile]

AUSTIN, Texas - A retired Texas National Guard official mentioned as a possible source for disputed documents about President Bush (news - web sites)'s service in the Guard said he passed along information to a former senator working with John Kerry (news - web sites)'s campaign.

In an Aug. 21 e-mail to a list of Texas Democrats, Bill Burkett said after getting through "seven layers of bureaucratic kids" in the Democrat's campaign, he talked with former Georgia senator Max Cleland about information that would counter criticism of Kerry's Vietnam War service. The Associated Press obtained a copy of the e-mail Saturday.

"I asked if they wanted to counterattack or ride this to ground and outlast it, not spending any money. (Cleland) said counterattack. So I gave them the information to do it with," Burkett wrote.

Burkett, who lives just outside of Abilene, wrote that no one at the Kerry campaign called him back.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040918/ap_on_el_pr/bush_guard_questions&cid=694&ncid=2043

[demoman123]

1. So where did he get these documents?

From the article:

Burkett said he saw documents from Bush's file discarded in a trash can a few days later at Camp Mabry in Austin. Burkett described them as performance and pay documents. Allbaugh and James denied the allegations.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040918/ap_on_el_pr/bush_guard_questions&cid=694&ncid=2043

Did he get them from the trashcan?

[Pirate Smile]

2. ????? More questions now. I have a feeling the press is going to

be wanting to talk to Cleland.

This doesn't explain why the RW knew to start questioning the documents within hours of the 60 minutes broadcast.

[DoYouEverWonder]

4. Because both sides

monitor DU and some of the other blogs.

As soon as it appears on the wires or here, they know about it.

[Eloriel]

8. No -- remember that CBS gave the White House an oppty to

respond BEFORE they went on the air. Rove had lots of heads-up notice on this.

[TankerKC]

73. Look at post 63

..and you'll see why. The format of the CBS docs was way off the norm for that period.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

51. What damn difference does it make?

[demoman123]

60. Here's the "damn" difference...

If he got it from the RNC, then this is a Rove dirty trick. If this can be shown, the egg is on Bush's face.

[Mamma__T]

65. Whoa there Tex

That is not even reaching, that is wishing.....

"In an Aug. 21 posting, Burkett referred to a conversation with former senator Max Cleland (D-Ga.) about the need to counteract Republican tactics: "I asked if they wanted to counterattack or ride this to ground and outlast it, not spending any money. He said counterattack. So I gave them the information to do it with. But none of them have called me back."

Cleland confirmed that he had a two- or three-minute conversation by cell phone with a Texan named Burkett in mid-August while he was on a car ride. He remembers Burkett saying that he had "valuable" information about Bush, and asking what he should with it. "I told him to contact the campaign," Cleland said."

Now Burkett says nobody called him back?? When you know that Kerry's campaign would pay or do almost anything for that kind of info? Come now, this has the DNC taint all over it.

[DoYouEverWonder]

69. Lt. Bill Burkett is a career military officer

who served his country honorably for many years.

He has been telling his story to anyone who will listen for the last five years. He didn't just suddenly appear out of no where.

He writes for Online Journal, Gregg Palast has interviewed him and he has done a few live broadcasts that can be found on Pacifica Radio.

So before you make assumptions, google his name and find out the history behind his story. As for myself, I will take Lt. Bill Burkett's word over Rush and O'Lielly any day.

[demoman123]

74. So what? He could still have been duped.

That's what I said here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=837311&mesg_id=837520

That he might have taken fake information that confirmed his memory from someone he trusted. My theory exonerates him of forgery,

[demoman123]

75. Whoa yourself.

My theory, which I have, posted elsewhere, is that Burkett might have gotten the documents from someone that he trusted in the Bush campaign. The documents confirmed his memory, and he forwarded them to the Kerry campaign.

Click here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=837311&mesg_id=837520

[sam sarrha]

61. I think we will find out, the CBS program is a series of reports..

[Mamma__T]

63. Where indeed....

It looks to me like he used MS Word and signed it himself...

[librechik]

3. oh f*k--that will simplify matters

NOT

[Dr Fate]

5. Where are the Swift-Boat liars?

Neutralized, thats where.

Everyone is now debating Bush's record.

Bush is on the defensive because he knows he was AWOL.

[Roland99]

9. Ayup...

Bush sure isn't doing any denials of the content of those memos. Not even a non-denial denial.

[sofa king]

38. ...Which may be the most honest thing he's done as President.

And that in turn makes me both curious and suspicious.

Remember the DWI thing just before the election in 2000? The Bush campaign just sort of rode that one out, too. I wonder what's going on in the "real" war room (it's obvious they don't have a war room for Iraq).

[Conservativesux]

50. Nowhere to be found, thats where !!

"Bush is on the defensive because he knows he was AWOL."

AWOL and higher then a kite. Thats why the chump wouldnt take a flight physical!!

[IndianaGreen]

6. Those CBS documents stink to high Heaven

and free lancers with a personal vendetta like Burkett are doing more harm than good. This idiot, who is probably the manufacturer of the CBS documents, is now saying things that can cause PR problems for the Kerry campaign.

Burkett was institutionalized after a mental breakdown. Let's not make him our poster boy!

[Jane Austin]

11. Who says he was institutionalized?

n/t

[IndianaGreen]

14. Burkett himself said that he was institutionalized (link provided)

Burkett, who served with the Texas National Guard in an administrative capacity before his 1998 retirement, has been involved in a bitter dispute with the Guard over medical benefits after suffering from a tropical disease following a military assignment in Panama. He has told reporters that he had a nervous breakdown and was hospitalized for depression after he left the Guard.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A24635-2004Sep15_2.html

[Jane Austin]

21. Thanks. Now if only being a

Pathological liar-addict-sadist-etc got you institutionalized.

Then we wouldn't have to worry about Bush.

Oh, and if depression made you and uncredible witness, then half the country is in that catagory, I think.

[IndianaGreen]

22. Your emotional and mental history is a factor in court

If your witness has a history of emotional problems and has been institutionalized, you bet that is a factor to be taken into consideration. Look at the Kobe case!

[Jane Austin]

39. I didn't follow that case, so I won't be looking at it, but

from what I've seen, treatment for depression is sadly misused quite regularly in this country.

You can drink a quart of whiskey every night, get up in the morning and swig coffee and smoke a few cigarettes before work and nobody cares.

Have your seratonin a little off (but correct it with medication) and Bam! You're bug-fucking nuts as far the establishment is concerned.

I'd frankly like to see the whole country get a little psycotherapy. Maybe a little introspection would cure the masses of worshipping appearance over substance.

[MGKrebs]

13. I don't smell anything, IG.

Technical experts have verified that they could be authentic.
The secretary said she didn't type them, but otherwise they were accurate.
The contents certainly fit the evidence.
I would venture to say that we were refuting Swift Liar allegations much sooner than four hours after awareness of them.

The ground under Bush* is already crumbling. He said there was NO special treatment because of his father. Now we see that his father was corresponding with a GENERAL about his son's progress. The space between "special treatment" and " honorable discharge despite failure to fulfill requirements" is getting quite small.

[IndianaGreen]

16. Secretary said she used an Olympia typewriter

and she said the documents were phony.

Now you can argue all you want, as Dan Rather has done, that the story is still true despite the fact the documents are forgeries. It just won't fly. If your documents are forgeries, you haven't got a leg to stand on.

[MGKrebs]

19. If the guy was keeping CYA documents,

he wouldn't necessarily have his secretary typing them. And if that were the case, he would likely type them on his own (office or home) typewriter.
I don't find this to be a stretch of logic at all.

She could not know if they were fake or not. She could only know that she didn't type them.

And she DID say that they were consitent with his attitude and the way things were done back then.

What is the evidence that they are fake?
Typeface and superscript- shown to be available.
Secretary's statement- opinion, has no way of knowing.


I don't even know how to make a 'superscript' on my computer. (I use a Mac. Do PC's do this automatically or something?) If somebody was trying to create a document that was supposed to look like it was from the 70's, would they overlook this? A career NG officer?

Anyway, the more we talk about this, the less time we devote to the REAL issue, how many times has Bush* been arrested?

Peace.

[IndianaGreen]

20. Killian's widow and son dispute that LTC Killian typed or own a typewriter

I wouldn't be surprised if Burkett owned or had access to an IBM composer.

[Florida_Geek]

24. I do not trust Repugs to tell the truth..

He could have typed them at work.

[IndianaGreen]

26. Stop drinking the Kool-Aid for a minute

The RW has been acting like that for years, refusing to believe or even consider any news that ran counter to their belief system.

You might as well turn off the TV because you are not going to like it when CBS ends up eating crow in public.

[stepnw1f]

43. Kool-Aid Huh

And what's your poison? Or is it Kool-aid at all. Interesting....

[comsymp]

45. Having known IG since virtually Day One here

I got a chuckle from the implication of your post.

You can rest assured that kool-aid is NOT her beverage of choice- in fact, her distaste for it, in any flavor, has been well documented. And you can also rest assured that you've picked the WRONG DUer's legitimacy to question.

IOW, don't make her whip out the sheep pix (ask some of the real oldtimers)~ :evilgrin:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

56. IG is creating her own image on this board....

...and she's going to have to live with it from this point on.

I can tell you for a fact that the things she is saying about Burkett are beyond reprehensible. Before you support IG's irrational outbursts about Burkett, do yourself a favor and do a little research on Burkett yourself.

Additionally, IG doesn't know jack-squat about the Killian documents. IMHO, her comments are completely without merit. Additionally, she has NO first-hand knowledge of the typewriter used to type the documents, and she knows even less about the nature of CYA documents used to protect oneself in military or government service. CYA docs are one-of-kind docs that were NEVER typed or written by anyone but the individual/officer writing/typing the documents. The last thing an individual/officer wants is to create a paper trail that will also implicate the person who is your right arm in the department.

You can support IG all you want, but she's created a pretty bad picture of herself over the last several weeks.

[comsymp]

64. Not the first time, hopefully not the last

that "she's created a pretty bad picture of herself..." Personally, that's something that drew me to this board way back when- nobody here was afraid to speak his/her mind and groupthink was anathema . Her gift, as well as that of several others ATT (hiya, sff- missed you!), for *always* putting principle over partisanship, made DU. I'd argue that without members like them, DU wouldn't have taken off the way it did.

(As for the rest of your message, it's a little presumptuous to suggest that I need to "do <myself> a favor and do a little research..." You have no idea of my level of familiarity with what's been going on. Oh, and for the record, none of us has firsthand knowledge of the typewriter used... unless it was produced sometime this evening? I may not share the exact same position that she does on these events but I'm glad she's speaking out- it helps keep this place from becoming too much of an echo chamber on partisan issues. What seems to be forgotten is that nobody except Burkett, Rather and a couple producers can speak with any authority whatsoever about WTF is going on. Challenging everything being said *by all sides* is only common sense- especially considering the filter through we're receiving all info- remember your own handle...)

[wsswss]

62. Occam's razor

> I wouldn't be surprised if Burkett owned or had access to an IBM composer.

It's more likely that he has Microsoft Word.

[Florida_Geek]

23. Right

"he wouldn't necessarily have his secretary typing them. And if that were the case, he would likely type them on his own (office or home) typewriter.
I don't find this to be a stretch of logic at all.

She could not know if they were fake or not. She could only know that she didn't type them."

That right and a lot of people getting pressure from higher up do CYA....

[ldf]

27. she did NOT say the documents were "phony"

she said that SHE DID NOT TYPE THE DOCUMENTS, and that to her IT LOOKED LIKE they COULD HAVE BEEN MADE BY SOMEONE WHO HAD THE ORIGINALS, and changed them enough to be legal.

she has no way to know if they are original or not. she just knows that she didn't type them. DUH!

did she type ever single memo that he sent out? i doubt it.

the crap about typewriters, font, script, has been proven to be diversions. the typewriters WERE available, WERE used by the military, and the scripts and fonts WERE available.

i think someone OTHER THAN the secretary typed them AT THAT TIME. it would not be uncommon, nor even illogical to have someone OTHER THAN YOUR SECRETARY type a "cover your ass" memo.

he could have typed them himself. anyone with two fingers could have. knowing how to type is irrelevant. anyone can hunt and peck. it just takes a lot longer.

and if burkett found them in the trash and re-typed them, then he has the originals.

if he has the originals, when they were ordered to be destroyed, just what laws would he be breaking if he kept them. and what would be the penalties?

THAT'S a no-brainer.

geez, repetition does not make something true. everyone should know that by now.

sorry for the "screaming", just my way to add emphasis.

[IndianaGreen]

29. Will you concede the documents were not typed by an Olympia typewriter?

The defense of Burkett and the CBS memos have shut the door on another line of inquiry: the fact that the CBS documents resemble other documents released by the White House. Doesn't that open the door to the possibility that most of the Bush documents were manufactured?

[SemperEadem]

33. diversions

it's not like we're going to find the exact typewriter with the exact typing keys and the exact typewriter ribbon all still intact. The military can make anything/one disappear if they want to and if that means leaning on a secretary to meet their ends, they'll do it.

[IndianaGreen]

36. She didn't strike me as one that can be pressured to do anything

She is also retired and into her 80s. You cannot pressure people like that. Some Seniors are grey panthers!

[SemperEadem]

37. know her personally, do ya?

I don't know her well enough to say that just because she's in her 80's, she can't be coerced into doing something at the military's strongest request. Seniors are easier to marginalize--hence the way this government has dogged them over health care and SS--so being a grey toothless panther, in the big picture, means nothing.

[IndianaGreen]

40. She looked pretty feisty on the interview with Rather

and I take exception to your characterization of seniors. Seniors voted in greater numbers than any other group, and they take the time and the trouble to educate themselves about the issues.

[DoYouEverWonder]

15. Listen to Burkett speak for himself

He is not a nutcake and in interviews he is very credible.

http://www.pacifica.org/programs/peacewatch/030502_peacewatch.html

It's the fifth item in the program, that was broadcast on May 2, 2003.


Burkett has been telling he story to anyone who would listen for a couple of years now.

[JoFerret]

25. Greg Palast also has an interview with Burkett

it's on the DemocracyNow website.

[geek tragedy]

31. Agreed. This dude is bad news. Kerry should run away from him.

He and Dan Rather have hurt Kerry and helped Bush.

[demoman123]

32. The question is where did Burkett get the documents?

I doubt that he forged them, because it's too easy to trace them to him. But here is one possibility. Maybe someone in the Bush campaign leaked them to him. Someone he trusted. The documents confirmed his memory, and he thought they were real, so he forwarded them to the Kerry campaign.

[IndianaGreen]

34. The more reason why Burkett needs to come clean

One can only assume that Burkett manufactured the CBS documents in order to pursue his personal agenda. On the other hand, if Burkett were to say that someone else gave him the documents, then we have another lead that must be pursued with full vigor.

CBS needs to come clean as to their source. Who knows where this might lead?

[comsymp]

47. That's it in a nutshell

I dunno if the docs are authentic or not- personally, hoping they are. But Burkett needs to be featured on a segment of 60M, original copies in hand, prepared to rebut or respond to each and every allegation. That, IMO, is about the only thing which would do any good at this point, and possibly help steer the conversation back towards the memo's information and not its font.

[okieinpain]

42. thank you. kerry does not need to be associated with this at all.

if this can be traced back to kerry's campaign I'm going to be pissed.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

54. Do yourself a favor. Do some research on Burkett before agreeing...

...with IG's comments.

[KittyWampus]

46. "Our" Poster Boy... Funny Turn Of Phrase Considering The Source

[DoYouEverWonder]

48. Yeah, I've noticed

a change for the worse with our friend IG?

Seems to be willing to do the dirty work for the dark side lately. It's starting to get old.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[amber dog democrat]

59. I am inclined to agree and besides that the Vietnam War

is not all that relevant now.
We can talk about the economy, the War In Iraq, and the mess we have made of the balance of power in the Middle East - and just stay on these issues alone.

Kerry is wise to stay out of the memo issues. This has KR written all over it.
more poisened red herrings from the White House. Those thugs will stop at nothing.

[Junkdrawer]

7. I posted Wednesday night that this was going to happen...

I said that if Rove planted the memos, he knew WHERE he planted them. And Rove would have planted them in the Kerry campaign. And THAT explains why Limbaugh, Novak and Hannity couldn't wait until the source of the memos was exposed.

[Just Me]

10. Whatever. I really don't give a _ _ _ _!!! n/t

[mconvente]

12. look at this

Burkett's lawyer, David Van Os, a Democratic candidate for the Texas Supreme Court, issued a statement this week saying Burkett "no longer trusts any possible outcome of speaking to the press on any issue regarding George W. Bush."

Yeah, I wonder why... Ummm, how bout the sycophantic mass media toward bushwack

[Disturbed]

17. P.U.L.L. Community Service.

This is the smoking gun that Rove et al are trying to avoid.

W says he volunteered for this. The question is did he do so and why or was he ordered to do so?

[Malva Zebrina]

18. Now the proclamation from Kennebunkport makes sense

Bush got his feet wet(this morning?) by stepping over the line/strategy of staying above it and not commenting on it, and then had an epiphany, stepped up and referred to those documents as false. It seemed strange when I read it, and now I see;it no doubt was part of the plan. He had this information , I am sure, when he said that at Kennebunkport.

I am not sure how this was all was accomplished if Rove or Karen is behind it. It seems incredibly complex at this point.

[progressivebydesign]

28. And NO ONE CALLED HIM BACK OR EMAILED HIM!!!

The repugs are saying it proves "collaboration" with Kerry. BULLSHIT. THey did NOT return his calls or emails.. Nice try for the press, so desperate to pin this on Kerry, while fucking ignoring the truth!! Bush waltzed away from his agreed duty, and is sending OTHER PEOPLE'S children to die in Iraq.

Fuck the republicans, Fuck the corporate medias! I really hate them right now.

[w4rma]

30. It's all in the headline. This headline is manipulative. (nt)

[David Zephyr]

44. They Do "Headlines" Well, Don't They?

I lunched at the White House (translation: I nibbled on a bag of potato chips while in line with the other tourists).

[Francine Frensky]

53. Most powerful person is the headline editor

from Lee Iacocca's autobiography: he went to work for a paper early in life and realized that most readers don't read beyond headlines so the most powerful person at the papers was the headline writer.

[Pirate Smile]

35. Cleland responded

In an Aug. 21 posting, Burkett referred to a conversation with former senator Max Cleland (D-Ga.) about the need to counteract Republican tactics: "I asked if they wanted to counterattack or ride this to ground and outlast it, not spending any money. He said counterattack. So I gave them the information to do it with. But none of them have called me back."

Cleland confirmed that he had a two- or three-minute conversation by cell phone with a Texan named Burkett in mid-August while he was on a car ride. He remembers Burkett saying that he had "valuable" information about Bush, and asking what he should with it. "I told him to contact the campaign," Cleland said. "You get this information tens of times a day, and you don't know if it is legit or not."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A30043-2004Sep17?language=printer

[Just Me]

41. Truth will bite your ass,...if you're a "ho",...

,...follow the money, expose the skeletons,...and screw the character masturbators who have no character, no scruples, no principles, no "hearts", no depth, no integrity,...nothing to inspire the best of humanity,...and USE OUR FEARS AND WEAKNESSES to cast us to our lowest common denominator.

I'll be damned if these cynical worstwithalls will shape the future of my son and his children!!!

[JDPriestly]

57. This does not mean the information came from Kerry's campaign.

The Kerry campaign is probably very wary of Rove traps. I doubt that the Kerry campaign would give questionable documents to CBS.

Also, no one has established that the documents are authentic. But, no one has established that they are fakes either. The jury is still out. The person who brought in the documents has the burden of proving they are authentic. So, let's see what happens next.

Even if these documents turn out to be computer copies, it does not mean that the person who created them intended to deceive or had a sinister motive in creating them. That person might simply have been naive and ignorant about the importance of having authentic documents. There are a number of possible scenarios to explain why someone would create computer copies of a controversial original if that is what happened. There may have been not only no intent to deceive, but no knowledge that the documents would be taken for the originals.

Clearly, the questions about the documents cannot be answered unless CBS's source makes the documents it/she/he has public so that we can see where they came from. I hope this person/entity can overcome its/his or her fear and come clean. That would be the honest thing to do, and it would help the Kerry campaign. These documents, even if they are badly made copies were not created out of thin air. There is too much accurate detail. The person who created or presented them got this information from some legitimate source. We need to know where it came from. If anyone knows the source, please tell them to come forward, if anonymously.

[rocktivity]

58. Right, Caliphoto--this is GOOD for Kerry

He offered the Kerry campaign the goods, they didn't want to touch them. So Burkett took his business elsewhere!

:headbang:
rocknation

[Bleacher Creature]

49. Rate this MISLEADING story a "1".

The Freepers are rating it high on Yahoo, which gets it up on the main page.

[dave502d]

55. Highlights How Bush's Military Records Were Purged (Video)

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_politics&Number=292950921&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=21&part=

[Carolab]

66. Look, this is about the record

Not the memos. The real issue is: where are the complete records of Bush's service, proving that he completed his duty? Where are the annual physical records, etc. Where is the proof that he served in Alabama?

Also, all of this is keeping the focus off of the mess in Iraq and the faltering economy. THIS is what Kerry should continue to attack. Americans care about their survival. The war, the escalating loss of lives and burgeoning cost of it, and the effects of outsourcing and corporate tax cuts on the economy are what matter to most people. The base of Democrats are working men and women, as are a lot of Republicans and swing voters, and they see the risks to their own security inherent in these issues. Bush cannot deny these problems and he cannot fool the public into thinking everything is alright. Kerry is quite right in continuing to bring these failures and broken Bush promises into the light. The right people and the right-wing loonies that support Bush are the minority. WE are the majority. All we need to do is to get "regular Americans" to hear the truth and report to the polls.

[Mamma__T]

67. Making up stuff doesn't help the cause....

Whatever chance you had on this non-story growing legs was destroyed by one Dan Rather once he became a perpetrator of an obvious hoax. Make sure to write Dan and tell him not to cave-in on this one......

:think:

[DoYouEverWonder]

70. Don't you worry, Dan's got the goods

And I gonna bet that Dan will be interviewing Lt. Burkett on next week's 60 Minutes.

And guess what, I've seen video of Lt. Burkett, and he is very good on TV. The WH is shitting in their pants over this story. That is why the attack dogs are out in full force. Stay tuned. Dan's got 'em by the balls.

[tedzbear]

68. Maybe this is all "much ado about nothing."

Everybody in America knows both parties are typically up to their necks in dirty tricks. In the end everybody will ignore these shenanigans and think about the issues before they vote. That's why it's important that Kerry keeps pounding Bush on the issues, provided of course, they are different on the issues. I can only think of two that stand out: the environment and pro choice. I suppose Kerry is pro gay, but only to a point. They are 1/2 different on that issue.

Before you flame, I AM voting for Kerry. I'm ABB.

:kick:

[Carolab]

71. IMHO the issues that matter

can be boiled down to a single word, and that word is "survival". In the end, people are concerned about their own, immediate survival. What threatens your survival most immediately? Is it gay rights (yes, to gays), is it the environment (yes, to those who care about the environment), is it the economy and jobs (yes, to all of us "have nots" and even many of us "haves" who are worried we may end up "have nots"), is it the "war on terror" (are you truly frightened about terror attacks? Or only if the current administration continues to inflame the Arab/Muslim world?) In the end, it's what MOST threatens your survival and that of the people you care about that gets our attention.

[fearnobush]

72. No flames, No body is perfect.

I'd vote for a yellow dog covered in piss before voting for Bu$h.