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oldhat Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 03:36 AM
Original message
Whispered in Russia: Democracy Is Finished: LA Times
Edited on Sun Sep-19-04 03:52 AM by oldhat
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-putin19sep19,1,6911600,print.story?coll=la-home-world

Whispered in Russia: Democracy Is Finished

MOSCOW — In a sunny garden outside the Kremlin, not far from the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, workers quietly hammered into place 10 squat black letters to commemorate one of the bloodiest battles of World War II: Stalingrad.

Until Friday, the memorial bore the name the city has had since 1961 — Volgograd — reflecting modern Russia's reluctance to honor a Soviet dictator famed and feared for a legacy of repression. President Vladimir V. Putin had long resisted pleas by war veterans to correct the historical record, saying it "could trigger suspicion that we are returning to the times of Stalinism." Then, without fanfare, the 10 new letters appeared on the wall, and below them, a bright wreath of autumn flowers. Coming just days after Putin announced one of the most sweeping consolidations of presidential power since the fall of communism, the move evoked far more than the memory of war.

SNIP...

"Putin is now past the point where his regime can be removed peacefully by democratic means. There is no way for democratic transition," said Vladimir Kara-Murza of the pro-democracy Committee 2008 organization. "There's no independent media, there's no parliament to speak of, there are no real parliamentary elections and now with the decision about the regional governors, there are no elections at all."

In an office at the parliament building Friday, one official broke from Russian into English and lowered his voice to barely a whisper, nodding his head toward the wall, as if it might be listening. "Democracy is finished in this country," he said. "It is over. It ended on the 13th of September." Asked whether his caution and pessimism were not extreme, he shook his head firmly. "Many have already been given very severe and hard instructions," he said. "Not to comment. Not to criticize. And real threats. All of us are in a state of shock. We are in the middle of 1937."

MORE...

*****

Excellent article. Please read.
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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 03:41 AM
Response to Original message
1. oldhat, in the future, please limit your article excerpts to 4 paragraphs
... or less, in compliance with copyright laws and DU Rules.

Thanks!

DU Moderator
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VolcanoJen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. KICK! This is truly a must-read.
:dem:
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 03:44 AM
Response to Original message
3. And bush is a most able student
n/t
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Actually I think Bush* was instructer not student
Our Democracy ended a few years earlier. We actually lost ours by judicial coup on December seventh 2000 and it was reenforced 9-11 2001. We now live under fascism with the name tag Democracy.
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I am with you 100 pct. He got his playbook from Bush. It was laughable
when I heard a CNN broadcaster say what Russia had done. It didn't occur to her that you could have changed Russia and USA in the story. It fit for either one. He will decide who will be running for the governors of the various states, he has already clamped down on the media, he has restricted the rights of the citizens. Many are saying he is using the blood of the people from the terrorist tragedy to accomplish what he wanted to do anyways......wow.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Bush is the teacher in this case, not the student.
But looks like the student outdid the teacher so far.
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Are we, now, pursueing a path toward a titanic
Edited on Sun Sep-19-04 09:11 AM by RevRussel
battle between two fascist powers with China picking up the pieces?
I can understand, although not agree with the method, the desire of Russian held territories to become self ruling. Why they, or at least the islamic fundamentalist trouble makers, wish to be separate themselves, I don't have the understanding of their history to fully appreciate, however, the escalation of violence should, in my opinion, tend to turn the majority of the populace against them.
The attitude of 'well-we are finally going to do something to end the constant nipping at the buttocks of humanity' was rampant in this country at the beginning of the Iraq war and was so terribly simplistic, with apparently no real thought toward the aftermath and no examination (except among the rabid anti-war element) of the overall Bush policies. Now so many of us are saying,"oh, if only we had listened to those war resisters, if only we'd had a better notion about the plans for world domination of our own little Hitler."
Is there never going to be a cure for this lack of forward-looking ability?
Even now, nearly half the population of this country eagerly listen to and believe out-and-out lies when a little checking and reading so easily prove the truth. It's a sad state of affairs when our leaders are all such liars, and, it seems, they actually have to be better liars than the other guys just to obtain and keep those positions of power. (shaking head)
They all lie, everywhere, nearly all the time. Sad, sad world.
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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. No. Wrong.
The Student (Putin) did not outdo the Teacher (Bush)

Why?

Because the people in Russia now KNOW that there is no way to have a democractic transition.

The majority of the people in this country still dont' believe that.

That's the brilliance of the neo-conservative/totalitarian clique. As long as people believe there is an opposition party they can vote for that is against the main party, a majority will never believe that they're in a totalitarian state.

Totalitarian states that ban opposition parties are ones that have come out of the closet. Even if the Republicans did that here in this country, they'd lose a large part of their support, and people would be up in arms. I truly believe that. I also know that it might take longer but whatever Putin is doing in Russia now won't last as long as a two party illusion sponsored by a more crafty totalitarian state.

Why go 1984 and George Orwell. Let em turn off their televisions and they'll still turn em on to watch Bill OReilly.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #8
29. "W" couldn't teach an incontinent old man how to piss himself
Putin as his student is one of the most ridiculous ideas this place has churned up.
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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
28. I have to agree with others that * was the leader/teacher....
We now know exactly what he saw in Pootey Poots eyes and his soul when they spent so much time together and found their common bond.

I'm sure Pootey Poot knew then he could make his moves, timed correctly mind you, and fit right in with *'s plans to take over the US and world domination.

And yes, too bad the US media couldn't compare the US to Russia so its citizens could open their eyes!!!
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 05:23 AM
Response to Original message
4. The blocks are moving.
Edited on Sun Sep-19-04 05:23 AM by LiberalVoice
They are connecting the dots to WW3. I only wish people could see it. It's coming.
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. It will be Russia and USA together.
I bet.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 05:30 AM
Response to Original message
5. Sobaka: Game Over: Russia's Reichstag Fire
interesting piece from an author/magazine I've come to rather like.

Sobaka: 'Game Over: Russia's Reichstag Fire'
by Mark Irkali
http://www.diacritica.com/sobaka/2004/reichstag.html
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Nice. This guy can write.
What we are seeing is the futher disintegration of the
Russian empire, grinding along. Seems clear Pooty-Poot has
no idea what to do, just more of the same, attempting to
clutch power tighter to his shrunken chest. How many years
before he gets a bullet in the head from some disgruntled
servant? Or perhaps he lives to a ripe old age and one of
his offspring will preside over the next collapse.
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. It sounds bad to say but he had the communist look written all over his
face. One of the coldest looking men I have ever seen. Seriously reminded me of Cheney.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. I actually like that about him
It will seem strange for me to praise him, but some of his 'worst' qualities I rather like. His seriousness in matters is a nice plus compared to the dude he inherited his burning reigns from, and he's managed to straighten up the place in some important respects while making a monster of himself in some others. But even with that last bit considered, his sense of humour is the blackest thing about him--castration jokes, while perhaps hilarious from a distance, do not go over well with intimidated company.

Cheney ... I sort of see it, but that's not a great comparison. I can't think up a better, off hand, so..
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
24. Politics is not for patsies or the weak-stomached.
The problem is that his knee-jerk resort to violence,
lots of violence, has made the situation worse, not
better. One doesn't have to take the Chechen side or
assume they are all saints to notice that things are
getting more fucked up all the time and that Putin has
only one answer, an answer that has accomplished less
than zero already. Admitted, he has recently made noises
about making the lives of the people in the area better,
but I doubt we will see the required sort of disciplined
generational commitment. Most of the trends I see in
Russian society are in the direction of more and more
money for the military and the police apparatus, and less
and less for the public welfare, and that is a sure road
to disaster.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
25. Irkali's indeed one of the good ones
his first-hand accounts of the various trouble -makings & -makers in that 'hood are miles and miles above most others. There are some other views of Russia at the site, Cali Ruchala's most effectively. I like the mag for they cut across most of the usual bullshit (with some of their own, I suppose) from most of the usual approaches, and I can always appreciate that in somebody/somebodies. A pretty wide swath for the things covered, but it's not fast on the uptake sometimes--a LBN wire service, it ain't, but that's ok.

I'm actually undecided on Putin. I guess I'm like that on a lot of things, having too much info at hand to pick from and not giving much a fuck for doing so.. He's quite a bit like what Mr.W would like to be--especially with the media--, but then he actually is and in a completely serious way (which is a shame, since our baffoon's baffoonery at least provides for the comic relief inbetween the shrieks and gasps).

The disintegration tendencies are from before and represent something he doesn't completely deserve credit for (though he drifts into that quite stupidly on occasion and seems to like it), and seems rather to be grinding a little bit slower under Pootie, with a couple quite notable exceptions. Like the drunkard who came before, he obviously wasn't planning on the Chechen 'shithouse' lobbing a few rounds back at their blitzkreig and it's worse this time. I agree on the 'flying blind' bit, though in these situations somebody like him technically has no shortage of ideas, just not good ones--the familiar idea is obviously to work harder at most of the things making matters fucked, and taking advantage of that to pull in the burning reigns a little tighter than anyone else would like, of course making it all more fucked and generally making a bother for anybody who wasn't bothered before. Maybe that's the idea, I don't know. :shrug: I sorta pride myself in not intimately understanding the sort too intimately.

I wonder, though, whether Putin geniunely considered Shamil's letter, or whether it got to him with enough time to think over the real meat of the matter before the place went down. From the public face, the answer to that is obvious but it's also obvious where that's coming from and why. What was offered by the commander, stripped of most of the gruesome bombast and typically remarkable insight, was actually the best that Putin and his gang could hope for: loss of direct control, but they never had that and never will, but that with a guarantee from the only man who could really provide one (and provided it was in good faith, one that would necessarily be upheld) and still, short of direct control, some amount of economic influence in terms of the CIS & ruble. The years have humbled even Shamil. I think he just wants an excuse to trim the beard again, like when he put back on the Bermuda shirts & khaki shorts of his Soviet computer salesman days, after 1997.

I see now, which I had reflexively denied previously, the event was staged, on the one hand to gather up a great amount of attention and knowingly not much of that positive (then again, see most of your family butchered and all of your friends dying in regular succession, maybe that ceases to matter and the 'big picture' alone takes over with a cold breeze), but more importantly to be something big enough to be capable of forcing an ending to the whole matter. He speaks this plainly in the most recently issued communique, which I finally found a full & decent copy of in the language I actually understand well. The Russians have at least learned a few things from Buddenovsk & Pervomoskoyie, and that's not to allow the bad guys to make total asses of the 'liberators' and somehow have the former blast their way into the saviors of the whole affair. The media are trained pets, even more than here.

As it happened, it is, indeed from Shamil's point of view, that of Riyadh as-Salakhin, and most everybody else, a catastrophic tragedy. The far greater tragedy it was intended to put a halt to would have been a miraculous blessing had it gone down as intended. Cauterizing that bleeding wound, which was supposedly the intention of blasting thousands of people into Nothingness and carving doodles into some of the rest, on what would sort of pass for mutually beneficial terms would do much to halt both the crumble & the excuses for the State's Hammer--which may actually be why that in itself is far too dangerous a thought to actually think about progressing towards. :shrug:

Maybe I'm too optimistic and picking the wrong sets of facts to lean on, and it is "Hitler with atomic weapons" as Musa Shanibov said as the first bombs fell on Djokharkala and as his western & eastern enemies would like to say. I definitely get that "Hitler" vibe from some of the old Ossetian women quotes in the press, but Vlad himself has been somewhat restrained this time. What the pols do in quiet is more discomforting, I suppose. It will be seen clearly enough eventually, so I don't suppose my speculation means much.

On a completely random note that I haven't been able to work into other posts before: they pardoned Colonol Budanov again. He was that guy who raped and strangled a Chechen girl to ... well, generally wide applause from his patriotic brothers to the north. That 'temporary window of insanity' plea seems to have a lot of mileage for him, though the admiration held for his deeds is only thinly veiled anymore and that indeed holds the greater sway. Still a few more whispy bureaucratic hurdles to tip over (including Pootie's John Hancock eventually), but the 'hero' will walk and will continue to be emulated regularly.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Random responses:
I like many things about Putin, but his handling of the N.
Caucasus region leads me to think he is a bit over his head,
this latest stuff really brought that to the forefront.

He IS a nationalist patriot, but he is slipping back into the
classic Russian mode of governance, and that is well proven to
not work worth a shit, anymore than the "managed democracy" we
have here in the US has worked worth a shit (unless you are the
sort that thinks a couple of decades of getting to drive SUVs
is some sort of "success".)

Certainly the disintegrative tendencies are not his fault, empires
have been taking their lumps for a long time, but he has not
played the hand well. The example of Chechnya will be imitated.
Had Putin negotiated some sort of suzerainty and made the best of
it, that would have been the model for other minority populations
to follow. Instead we have Basayev, and he will be imitated. Tactical
victories made at the expense of strategic losses are not the way
to win a war. He has bought some time in which to procrastinate,
at the expense of worse long term prospects.

I did see the story on that asshole Budanov, but didn't figure
calling him an asshole some more would help, so ignored it. That
he is being released does not fill me with confidence about any
"new initiatives" for the N. Caucasus.

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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
13. Once again, thanks Dumbya for giving Putin permission to kill
Edited on Sun Sep-19-04 09:15 AM by Mr_Spock
at will and over-run the rights of the people based on a few incidents that have actually been promoted by the governments' incompetence (deliberate I might add). Oh, but Dumbya, if he does some killin' even you don't agree with, don't think our "friends" are going to come to our rescue if you ask. They will LAUGH in your face - they may even promote Russia. You fool - you should resign on the off chance that the morons who want a dictator here reappoint you.
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rawstory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
14. kick
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
15. Time to play devil's advocate.
What would DU'ers prefer? That Russia cave to the hostage taking of children? Basayev admitted he was behind the hostage taking, then said the deaths were all the Russians' fault. Also said that food and water would be provided at various stages of compliance. In other words, taking kids hostage and bringing them to the edge of starvation is ok, but storming a school is not.

The same neocons who push war with all of Israel's enemies want terror to win in the Chechen case for no great reason other than that they want Russia to lose and to be liquidated, opening the region's oil to US exploitation. Given this, the main difference between Putin and his West-supported democratic opponents is that Putin can't be bought off because money is not his primary goal. The survival and aggrandizement of the Russian state is. In other words, he is a nationalist, not a capitalist, and that is why he is so hated.

Say an oligarch minion is voted in and dismantles Putin's "reforms" and negotiates with the Chechen warlords. Think that's gonna be enough? Think that's gonna satisfy the rebels? There's territory to be won and money to be made off Russian weakness. Last time the war was lifted it led to a massive wave of kidnappings inside Russia itself and the taking over of a large segment of organized crime. Then the bombings that cemented Putin in power came. Why? Because autonomy wasn't good enough. The sovereign right to not be chased by Russian law enforcement was required.

And this is ok, because the Russians are such evil, evil people?

The Russians got to where they are because they gradually ejected the Mongols. Go ahead, tell them the world would've been better off if the Mongols had stayed in charge, because that's little different from letting the Chechens dictate to Russia, whether it has a democracy or not.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. The point of the article in the L.A. Times, and also in Sobaka
is that Putin's actions are not so much aimed at combatting
terrorism, real or imagined, but shoring up his authority and
securing his own position. He is poised to become another
totalitarian ruler in the style of the old Soviet Union. Which,
when you consider his KGB background, is hardly surprising. The
man is proving his authoritarian credentials in the most
obvious and opportunistic way.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. That's the easy way to see it, but governors matter over there.
Extremely poor coordination between governors and federal forces were a big problem during the Breslan siege. Governors on the take or, shall we say, self-employed, are not an improvement over centrally appointed minions.

I can understand people saying that they think this is more about Putin's power than fighting terrorism.

But saying that this has nothing to do with combatting terriorism, REAL OR IMAGINED, is insulting to the intelligence. I realize that's the journalists talking, but that doesn't make it smart.
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Putin could get out of Chechna and let them run their own country

that's what the Chechens want. that's what they are fighting for.

the bottom line is that the oil and water barons are fighting over control of the world's oil and water.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Heh, you think that's all they're fighting for?
The right to kidnap for money is another freedom they want... and they'll probably get it at this rate, too.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. Those people are mostly dead by now
Edited on Sun Sep-19-04 11:02 AM by Aidoneus
Maskhadov & Basayev were never involved with that stuff, and they're the big guns left. Gelayev had the cleanest record of the bunch for those things, but he was martyred this last winter (and finally so honestly enough, having been pronounced dead at least 90 times before, but in strange circumstances). The coward slave trader Arbi Barayev, Urus Martan's Akhmadov's, and the lesser-like--many of them generally protected & monetarily partnered with various layers of the occupyers, as it turned out--are mostly all dead now, thankfully.

That hasn't stopped the act of mass kidnappings, but it made them lower-profile and less interesting for 'reasons of state' to the various press agents. Indeed, the kidnappers mostly work for the occupyers now and continue to take people on a regular basis. But more importantly, on an official basis, so not only are there no recriminations or condemnations, but there's a fat check & nice shiny weaponry in it for them now. They were organized under Kadyrov's gangs, and now remain so under the son of the ex-puppet, Uday/Ramzan.

I won't tackle the "whys" of the people I like, as opposed to all but 3 above being the "don't likes", now or probably not later either.

You mention the Mongols, do note the irony of the use considering some methods.
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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
20. I'm not whispering, I'm shouting: democracy in america is dead

the bloody bushgang killed it with their partners the media.
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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
23. Is this a cold war reduex...
or are we both on the same side now,the wrong one!
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neomonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
26. Hate to sound like one of those one-world gov't conspiracists
But I can't help but wonder if the old polarization of the Soviet Union and the United States isn't more beneficial to a select few people and groups as an active horror rather than as a historical tragedy.
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