Many killed in Ramadi (US Snipers!), Falluja raids

[leftchick]

US Terrorists continue assault on innocent Iraqis....

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/19287CF7-A5CE-4D8F-988B-F3CB37B6F1FF.htm

<snip>

Dr Khamis al-Saad, general director of Ramadi hospital, told Aljazeera that 11 people, including a woman and children, were killed and another 18 wounded under US fire on Monday.

Ambulances and medical teams were targeted by US snipers in different areas of Ramadi, particularly near hospitals for women and children, al-Saad said.

Two ambulance drivers and members of medical teams on board the vehicles were also killed, he said.

Medical staff and patients inside the hospitals were targeted and a number of them were shot in the head, the general director said.

[Spinzonner]

1. Winning hearts and minds

but first we have to get them out of their bodies

[markus]

2. Liberating the Iraqis

from this mortal coil.

Yeah, using snipers to shoot people inside a hospital is a sure fire Hearts and Minds strategy.

Where to I line up to spit on these guys as they return?

[UpInArms]

3. here's one of our

"hero warriors" in his own words:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=820255&mesg_id=820255

excerpt:

Groombridge points out a mosque from where gunmen opened fire a few weeks earlier. Jesus Sales, a 21-year-old who joined the army to pay for college fees, is the unit's reserve sniper. He shot a man a few weeks earlier: 'I didn't feel anything weird. I just felt satisfied.'

Wilks is equally phlegmatic: 'Sometimes I feel like I should feel guilty, but I don't. Everyone I shot deserved it. It doesn't bother me.'

[leftchick]

4. how fucked up is that?

we have a lot of potential AmeriKan Terrorists coming home for sure.
I feel safer, don't you?... :eyes:

[geek tragedy]

6. Well, maybe you'll get your wish

and they'll be killed in Iraq.

Nice to see that the word of Al-Jazeerah is the gospel truth, however.

Bill O'Reilly thanks you for the source material.

[leftchick]

10. My wish?

I won't dignify that with a response. Glad to see you watch O'Lielly, no surprise there.

As far as Aljazeera goes, I guess I should wait for "official word from the US Military" before you believe anything ...... :eyes:

[geek tragedy]

12. No, but I won't label American troops "terrorists"

and decry their return home based on what Al-Jazeera says about anything anymore than I'll believe Faux News.

If you don't want American troops returning home to terrorize you, what do you want done with them?

[saigon68]

15. Maybe deprogram them a little before they come back

HERE IS A PLACE TO START

[geek tragedy]

17. Which American troops do you want to torture?

People "deprogrammed" our troops coming home from Vietnam by spitting on them.

What is your opinion on this tactic?

[saigon68]

19. I don't think the military deprogrammed anyone--- by spitting on them

But as someone who is a Veteran's Service Officer, who works with Veteran's with PTSD you owe me an apology.

[geek tragedy]

22. Why do I owe you an apology?

I wasn't addressing you or saying that the military spits on its troops.

I was responding to the poster who described American troops as terrorists and wants them to suffer Abu Ghraib like torture before returning home.

[saigon68]

23. Your ignorant comment was meant for me

LC never said that either--- I think you are putting up a Straw man argument.

And I do take it personally

[geek tragedy]

24. I goofed.

Asumed she was responding to me--my bad. Apologies around.

What did you mean by that post--the one with the Abu Ghraib pictures?

[saigon68]

28. Well --- I should have been clearer

The military in its "WISDOM" decided to send a bunch of under trained reservists with no supervision to the most dangerous prison in Iraq. (Abu Ghraib)

The Army also provided no competent NCOs or Officers to run the place who had any bit of common sense. Chaos ensued.

Without trying to defend Lynndie and her gang it is apparent that no one was in charge. I personally believe Lynndie's bunch was encouraged by someone to use other than legal means to "break down" the prisoners. Lynndie by herself couldn't figure out, how to pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel.

I feel very sorry for these 18 and 19 year old kids who are being ordered to torture and kill--- they are going to have a lifetime of mental health issues, if the military doesn't somehow get its act together and provide counseling for them BEFORE they return to AMERICA.

That's what I meant by De programming

No apology necessary I now see what you were saying :-) Peace :-)

[geek tragedy]

29. Understood, and peace back at ya.

It's totally a management/command thing.

My s.o.'s cousin--who's spent his entire career as an honor guard at Arlington, got his commitment extended and was shipped off to Iraq. (he had gotten into Yale but his asshole abusive father convinced him that "real men" do time in the armed forces).

Well, we've gotten his first letter. He says things are very "exciting" where he is. When one considers what that code is for (military censors and all), to realize what this kid is seeing, hearing, and feeling, and what might happen to him, god damn it.

[markus]

27. Re: spitting

Actually, there is no record of spitting actually happening.

I was just expressing my disgust with people shooting into hospitals.

[bobbyboucher]

31. Would you mind,

your posts are obvious repube garbage. You miss every point and try to turn it into something negative against DU. I'll say it again, I see you.

*edited to prevent emotional damage*

[geek tragedy]

33. Such blatant disregard for DU rules.

Have you no respect for this place? Please learn how to be a good member of DU.

Also, please don't respond in a way that will get deleted as well. I welcome a chance to engage in discussion with you.

[bobbyboucher]

36. I'd expect as much from you, falls right in line

with your transparency. Keep up the bad work.

[geek tragedy]

39. Why can't you respect DU rules?

A perfectly legitimate question.

[bobbyboucher]

41. What a joke.

You're as big a fraud as your hero. I see you.

[geek tragedy]

44. That's five.

Have you read DU Rules? If so, why do you feel that they don't apply to you?

[bobbyboucher]

46. Nice tactics,

True to form.

[geek tragedy]

49. What form?

I just want to know why you're violating DU rules.

[bobbyboucher]

51. Running for the usual cover,

that tactic. It happens quite often, if you know what I mean.

[geek tragedy]

53. Why can't you respect DU rules?

Simple question.

[krkaufman]

25. Agreed. The fog of war clouds everything...

... so I'm not going to crucify soldiers for what they *might* have done. I *will*, however, blame their Commander-in-Chief for putting them in such an untenable position.

I can't imagine the psychological problems these guys are going to have when they return home. Crikey.

[saigon68]

7. They are only Muslim Rag heads

They deserve to die</sarcasm>

[Gyre]

5. This administration is amateur evil.

But it's still pretty damn bad. Hope those orc snipers go straight to hell, just like their commander-in-thief. :)

Gyre

[MikeG]

8. If there is proof - this is a war crime.

I think we should consider the source - Al-Jazeera.

[UpInArms]

11. guess all those Iraqi hospitals with all their new

gleaming facilities (courtesy of the rebuilding efforts of the US) should have thought about installing surveillance cameras so that they could "prove" their unfounded claims of death by the liberating snipers.

/sarcasm

So I guess by your post that you agree that Al Jazeera should be banned and not be allowed to publish any accounts from Iraq?

Not trying to flame, just curious.

What news source would you prefer? The DoD?

[MikeG]

14. They aren't exactly objective. They're the Arab Fox News.

[UpInArms]

18. well, okay then!

I guess I wait for the "investigation" that will surely result from this.

Do you think it will be like the one where we dropped bombs on the wedding party?

Those were "rebels" celebrating, weren't they?

They just duped that wedding singer to join them, didn't they.

:eyes:

Oh, that's right - the AP had the tape on that one, but the "investigation" still cleared our military of any wrongdoing.

You're right - those icky Al Jazeera journalist just hate having their offices bombed, their reporters killed and now they just have to get back at the US by lying through their teeth since there is never any evidence that any of these things occurred.

These people fighting the troops are just "dead enders" and Saddam followers that don't get the message that the US now owns all of their oil and markets and won't get with the "program" of being good little consumers of global freetrade products.

[MikeG]

20. You appear to be up in arms over this, UpInArms.

See what tomorrow brings in terms of corroboration.

[UpInArms]

30. What I find disturbing, Mike, is that

there are no unbiased reports coming from Iraq.

There are either the complete mayhem reports or there is the complete whitewash reports.

Find me a source that is trustworthy and I will happily accept that there might be hope.

Until then, all I know is that people are dying and bleeding and lives are ruined worldwide because of the policies of this maladministration.

Every country in the world that can, is trying to race to the bottom of the pile in the human rights abuses.

Yes, there are horrible deaths being suffered by our troops. Yes, there are horrible deaths being suffered by Iraqis.

We have an unelected amoral thief running our country. We have an supplicating congress. We have a corrupt justice system. We have apathy and boredom on the part of the citizenry.

We have corporate fascism in our media.

I am angry when the pot calls the kettle black.

I am weary of hearing a shovel being called a spoon.

I am downright exhausted by the regression that has occurred in the growth of the human spirit under the guise of religios zealots that kill in the name of their "god".

You're right. I am "up in arms". I am only one, but I am one very angry person that truth has suffered at the mouths of fools.

Perhaps you do not know any PTSD Vietnam vets or cannot imagine the lives that were not lived because of our folly 30 years ago.

I don't like what I see for the future of our world and since the powers that be have declared a moratorium on anything but in-bed reporting, we will just have to sit here and know that we know absolutely fucking nothing.

The death counts of our military and the kill counts of the "enemy" will have to suffice.

I will not spit on the vets that return, I will weep for the lives that are impossibly tormented and pray for the day that someone with vision and reason will stand before the military terrorists and give the order to disarm and go home.

No one wins in wars. Everyone loses. There are no mighty battles, there are only momentary flashes of illumination as the sparks of bullets and bombs destroy our world.

This war was premeditated death and destruction. It was dreamed and its fires have been fed by lies and liars from the depths of hell.

That these are the people that never fight and die is a shame.

To feed their insane battles they send our seed corn - our young and impressionable children - to do their "patriotic" dirtywork.

[geek tragedy]

34. I agree with everything you said.

Our anger belongs directed at one place, and that is the Smirking Asshole launched this war on a foundation of lies.

[UpInArms]

43. thank you - that is where my anger

has been and will continue to be directed.

[geek tragedy]

21. There is a middle ground between screaming "LIES" and screaming

"AMERICAN TROOPS ARE EVIL TERRORISTS" in response to this.

Skepticism is owed to all media organizations. This does raise serious concerns, and deaths around the hospitals are something I would want an explanation for. But it is hardly something that should be taken as the Gospel truth.

[bobbyboucher]

32. What a tool.

You are so obvious it ain't funny.

[geek tragedy]

35. Two rules violations in one thread.

Good work, Bobby!

[bobbyboucher]

38. WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

The usual response. Don't you have some other site to lower.

[geek tragedy]

40. That's four.

Keep it up. You make a compelling case.

[bobbyboucher]

42. Keep it up,

you make a compelling case.

[geek tragedy]

45. What a trite response. Not even a good attempt to start a flame war.

Here is a copy of the Rules that you are violating, btw.

"Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other members of this discussion board.

If you are going to disagree with someone, please stick to the message rather than the messenger. For example, if someone posts factually incorrect information, it is appropriate to say, "your facts are wrong," but it is not appropriate to say "you are a liar."

Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, troll, conservative, Republican, or FReeper. Do not try to come up with cute ways of skirting around the spirit of this rule. If you think someone is a disruptor, click the "Alert" link below their post so the moderators can deal with it."

[bobbyboucher]

47. Thanks,

don't be sad though, it happens.

[geek tragedy]

48. I'm not sad.

Just disappointed. Most people who start a flame war usually have a little more to bring to the table.

Did you read the rules?

[bobbyboucher]

50. I brought it,

You're it.

[geek tragedy]

52. Stunning. I haven't heard such wit since

second grade.

Go ahead. Personally insult me again. You're almost at double digits.

[jmcgowanjm]

9. Here's some more professional evil

Major Phil Smith of the 1st Cavalry Division said to
the Independent. Without noting the irony in his statement,
he added, “It was for the safety of the people around
it.”

But rarely, if ever, have US forces called in an air strike to
destroy the remains of a disabled vehicle in Baghdad.
Indeed, Iraqis point out, nearby Sadr City, where
combat between US personnel and Shiite resistance forces
has become a nightly ritual, is regularly littered with the husks
of abandoned armored vehicles and Humvees that are not
later demolished in US air strikes.

The difference between Sunday's incident and others where
US military accounts have differed drastically from all
available eyewitness versions of events, this one was
witnessed directly by reporters and partially caught on
videotape.

http://www.williambowles.info/iraq/news_14904.html

[Comadreja]

37. Safety enhancement photos

here's a few "dead enders" whose safety was enhanced by US helicopters in Baghdad:




How many does it take to metamorphose wickedness into righteousness? One man must not kill. If he does, it is murder.... But a state or nation may kill as many as they please, and it is not murder. It is just, necessary, commendable, and right. Only get people enough to agree to it, and the butchery of myriads of human beings is perfectly innocent. But how many does it take?: Adin Ballou, The Non-Resistant, 5 February 1845

[Heyo]

13. Well...

al-jazeera says US snipers are shooting ambulance drivers and medical teams..."particularly near hospitals for women and children"

Okay....... sure....

al-jazeera is not a news agency. They are strictly propaganda.

Heyo

[Tommy_Douglas]

16. A terrorists exports terror...

How do you think Iraqi citizens view american troops at this moment?

[Xithras]

26. Remember the stolen uniforms...

Let me play devils advocate here...

Up until now, all of the atrocities committed by U.S. troops have occurred under the guise of securing the country (i.e. blowing up streets full of kids that might be terrorists) or securing U.S. equipment. Shooting injured people in a hospital simply doesn't fit the standard OP of our troops over there.

A few days ago there was a story on the wires about a number of Humvee's and a pile of U.S. uniforms being stolen. While I'm not trying to lift all blame from the U.S. military here, keep in mind that this could be a guerilla attempt to inflame the population and start a general uprising.

[Moderator]

54. This thread is a flame fest and not productive

Locking