Pope Denounces Variations of 'Marriage'

[emad]

Guardian snip:
VATICAN CITY (AP) - Pope John Paul II told New Zealand bishops Monday that efforts to equate marriage between man and woman to other forms of cohabitation violated ``God's plan for humanity.''

New Zealand's parliament has been debating proposed legislation that would grant ``civil union'' status to couples - both same-sex and heterosexual - who live together, giving them many of the same rights as married couples.

Conservative critics have labeled it the ``Gay Marriage Bill,'' although it doesn't formally recognize gay marriages and differentiates between civil unions and marriage.

``Spouses rightly deserve specific and categorical legal recognition by the state,'' the pope said, ``while any attempt to equate marriage with other forms of cohabitation violates its unique role in God's plan for humanity.''

More:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4491844,00.html

[truthspeaker]

1. Who wants a child-pimp's opinion on marriage?

Just shut up, old man.

[Liberal Til I Die]

16. I wasn't aware the Pope was a pimp.

This is very interesting. Can you supply the URL for your source? We need to let the media know this now.

[truthspeaker]

25. The media has been reporting it already.

The pope help shield child-molesters from prosecution, and aided their bishops in moving them to new dioceses with fresh victims.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

36. man, you hate him

wow

[skooooo]

2. You no play-a the game, you no make-a the rules...

butt out!

[Liberal Til I Die]

18. Not sure I get this type of reasoning.

About not playing the game and not making the rules. I would venture to say most of us have no military or political experience, yet I think we're all justified in making reasoned opinions about Iraq, tax policy, etc.

I agree with you, that the Pope is wrong, but I just think the "play the game" argument is a bit of a cop-out.

[oldcoot]

44. There is a difference

Even if we are not soldiers or politicians, we still participate in the war by funding it with our tax dollars. This is why we have a duty to speak out against the war if we feel it is wrong.

The war affects us in other ways. Those of us who are between the ages of 18 or 25 or who are parents of children between these ages should prepare for the fact that we may have a draft after the election. The fact that Bush decided that getting Saddam Hussein was more important than getting Osama bin Laden may affect us later because bin Laden might plan another attack against the United States.

On the other hand, no one is forcing the pope or any other religious leader to support or even acknowledge gay marriages. In the United States, churches have a great deal of freedom in deciding what marriage ceremonies they will perform. Many churches require that prospective couples go through some counseling before getting married. There is no reason to believe that legalizing gay and lesbian marriages will do anything to diminish the rights of churches and other religious institutions.

[Thurston Howell IV]

52. It was a joke.

Wasn't really offering an encyclical.

[sniffa]

3. but ok's "red hot cathoLic Love"

traditionaL man-boy reLationships must be saved!!!

[Spinzonner]

4. Doesnt he have some child molesters to deal with

and quit wasting his valuable (and declining) time and energy on consenting adults

[emad]

6. Holier than thou rhetoric gears up several notches as more

and more US dioceses file for bankrupcy for hiding child rape and torture for the last 50 year or so....pontificating on matrimony soft option for senile old duffer surrounded by protected sex-abuse scandal hierarchy

[arwalden]

5. Of All The TRULY IMPORTANT Battles He Could Be Fighting...

... they trot out the demon 'homer-shex-urals' yet again.

Get the faithful riled up and pass the plate. I'm guessing they need more gilded bathroom fixtures. I guess it's easier to attack queers instead of actually doing something GOOD and using their voice and power and money to oppose wars and to fight poverty and child abuse.

-- Allen

[rustydog]

7. Gay marriage is totally wrong...Father, quit raping my children!

Pope, quit hiding the child rapists in the Vatican!
Now, you were saying about sanctity and marriage?

[Arianrhod]

21. "Why are you touching me? You're not a priest!"

-- Robin Williams on airport body searches.

[Jacobin]

8. Yes. Only pedophilia is an acceptable alternative to straight

marriage.

[Catfight]

9. The pope is just a rich white powerful man who promotes hate. Nothing

new under that umbrella of hate in the name of God.

[KittyWampus]

10. IMO, Pope Is Somewhat Correct. Marriage Is A Sacred Institution

The State has no business whatsoever "Marrying" anyone.

Giving out licenses for civil unions... YES. Marrying... NO.

Seperation of Church and State maintained.

Let Churches "Marry" whomever they deem worthy.

For Catholics, that'd be Man/Woman.
For certain other demoninations that'd be two loving and committed people of any sex.

Now, isn't that easy?

[TriMetFan]

11. Well said.

But also make hard as HELL to get a divorce.:evilgrin:

[truthspeaker]

13. Bullshit. It was a civil institution FIRST, before religion stepped in.

Under your proposal, the nonreligious couldn't get married.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

17. I don't agree...

Government-recognized and sanctioned "civil unions" would be for everybody. People who wanted a religious ceremony could avail themselves of the church of their choice. Non-religious couples would still be recognized for the civil union, and one assumes that they wouldn't care for a religious ceremony.

I don't like the government deciding who can be "married" and who can't. Can the government then start decided on the who "total immersion" thing in the "Defense of Baptism Bill?" Or perhaps we should start having tax breaks for people who go to confession regularly.

Government should butt the hell out.

[truthspeaker]

24. The government currently only decides who can be civilly married

Churches already have the right to decide which marriages they will and will not perform and recognize.

You've proposed a solution in search of a problem, and it's discriminatory to boot.

Again, I'm non-religious but would like to have the option of getting married someday. Why do you want to take that away from me?

[livinginphotographs]

26. I think we're failing to see the difference between

marriage as a legal thing and marriage as a religious thing.

For example: both my parents were atheists, and got married before a judge. A church was never involved, but they were still considered married, even though quite a few churches probably wouldn't recognize their marriage (my father was born Catholic, my mother was not, I'm pretty sure that some Catholic churches wouldn't recognize an interfaith marriage).

I think what the poster is proposing is to let government bestow all the legal benefits of marriage on straight and gay couples, and let churches recognize or not recognize whatever they want. Under this system, you would still be able to get "married" in a civil union-type situation.

[truthspeaker]

27. So why not just call the civil unions "marriage"?

Under the previous posters proposal, your parents would have a civil union, not a marriage. Do you think they would be happy with that?

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

28. What's the difference?

People in common-law relationships refer to themselves as "married" even though they haven't had either a civil or a church ceremony. The difference between a "civil union" and a "marriage" is totally a matter of colloquialism and semantics. Couples united under a civil union would certainly be entitled to call themselves "married."

[truthspeaker]

29. Exactly my point.

[KittyWampus]

31. Why? Because The Church & State Are Two Distinct AND SEPERATE Institutions

and therefore can NOT offer the same stamp of approval on a coupling of two individuals and their households.

The State derives it's authority from the PEOPLE and in accordance with precendents.
The Church derives it's authority from its Religoius Heirarchies and their interpretation of religious texts.

[livinginphotographs]

32. I don't think they would've cared.

They still get all the legal benefits, regardless of what it's called.
And in the eyes of certain churches, they actually weren't married anyway.

"Marriage" and "civil union" are really just words. What's needed is the legal protections and benefits, not the name.

[Ohio rules]

40. But when divorce enters the picture;

better get those pre nup's in order ;)
LOL

[KittyWampus]

30. The Non Religious (Straight OR Gay) Join In A Civil Union By The State

with all the same Rights & Responsibilities as a Marriage.

The Religious join together in a Sacred Union by the Church (temple, mosque).

And as a cultural anthrolopologist... I strongly question whether Marriage (the joining together of two peoples and their households) was a CIVIL Institution FIRST.

Societies' Laws were originally descended from Religious Law.

Monarchs derived their power from God.

Etc.

[Djinn]

45. marriage predates Christianity

and has a history dating back thousands of years to the "tribal" days. It may have become a "sacred" institution in the eyes of many but it's NOT how it originated and isn't how many view it today.

Everyone should be able to get MARRIED full stop and have all the rights/responsibilities attached to that people who want a RELIGIOUSLY BLESSED marriage can go get one if the Church they're asking consents.

[RobertDevereaux]

12. So do these other forms of marriage..,

include that between all nuns and one deity? Just asking.

[takumi]

14. A Man With Little Credibility Speaks

Does anyone still pay attention to what the Pope says?

[sui generis]

15. fuck "god's plan for humanity"

I've read the bible - didn't like the ending (or most of the rest of it).

Good and evil are human concepts - as is "morality". Why doesn't the pope keep people who eat shellfish from getting married?

And what about those non-productive marriages? If he's shootin' blanks shouldn't she dump him for a more virile male? What's love got to do with it anyway?

[AngryOldDem]

19. Pope needs to clean up his own house first....

...before he tries to clean out others'.

[Ohio rules]

41. How does this issue play in the Islamic world?

;)

[Djinn]

46. there is no "head" of the Islamic world

so it really depends on who you ask, the spread of opinion in the "islamic world" is much the same as in the "CHristian" one with regard to homosexuality, some people believe it's utterly wrong and "offenders" should be punished, others believe it's wrong but it's up to God to "punish", others belive the Koran was written a long time ago and relates to the social/political climate of the time and is not meant to dictate all aspects of our lives word perfect (the contradictions within the Bible and the Koran make that impossible anyway) others are "culturally" Muslims but think it's all fairies in the sky stuff.

What was your point anyway

[Ohio rules]

48. Here is my point

Only christian societies allow open debate and questioning of...christian society.
Enjoy these liberites.
We can bicker and moan most of the time but we have it better than most.

This link is from a kinder,gentler form of Islamic law by an Imam who preaches from the shia text. at least, these are his opinions of high law from God
Learn thyself;
http://www.sistani.org/html/eng/menu/3/main.htm

this link is the specifics on acceptable marriage;
http://www.sistani.org/html/eng/menu/3/inside/229.htm

This one on divorce
http://www.sistani.org/html/eng/menu/3/inside/243.htm

oh
BTW,just in case.
wanna know the ins and outs on anal intercourse?
yep,thats right..it's in there...
see if you can navigate this page for "lots" of Islamic answers.
http://www.sistani.org/html/eng/menu/4/?part=1

Don't forget to browse the "M" section. the best in the alphabet imo.

Remember, this isn't Wahabi/Sunni hard core law

[FlemingsGhost]

49. Ahem ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x822798

Yeah ... we got so good.

[Ohio rules]

51. hello...This thread is about marriage

lol

And you actually put money in a Sunday collection plate ?

W.W.J.D ? :)

[Djinn]

54. yep there was LOTS of questioning allowed in Nazi Germany

or Pinochet's Chile, or Singapore (where there are as many Christian's as Muslims) - how do they feel about homosexuality??? but that's all irrelevant.

You have quoted ONE Imam - btw Sistani is rarely described as "moderate" by anyone outside his organisation - his beliefs are as much a product of POLITICS and CULTURE as they are of Islam and he no more speaks for ALL muslims than my mate Hani does.

Any idea how many vile hateful bigoted screeds from various Christian pastors/preachers I could quote?? I wouldn't dream of suggesting they spoke for ALL Christians, the Pope doesn't even speak for all CAtholics although technically he should.

I can only speak about the two Imams and dozen of so Muslims I know personally and none of them would agree with this guy.

[Arianrhod]

20. What about the variety of priest-on-boy? The Vatican seems

quite happy with that one. . . .

[cyr330]

22. credibility problem

Mr. Pope has no credibility about anything. If he wants to denounce something, he can start with the child molesters he's been harboring in the Catholic Church since he became pope in 1979 and for eons befoe that. I'm so sick of John-Paul receiving air time with his preposterous pronouncements. He goes to third world countries and starts to preach against birth control, etc. He really ought to be jailed.

[Endangered Specie]

23. Does this include "Priest-Altar Boy" Weddings?

[GHOSTDANCER]

33. coming from a guy who's pecker probably doesn't work anymore

who is he to judge?

[Liberal Til I Die]

34. This is a great line of reasoning.

"His pecker doesn't work." Bravo.

[nolabels]

39. Maybe we could clue the Pope into a link for an interesting web site

Ask your doctor about the VIAGRA® Sample Pack

VIAGRA is a medicine used to treat erectile dysfunction (ED). It is only available from a doctor or with a doctor’s written prescription. Are you ready to talk to your doctor for the first time about VIAGRA? Ask if a free VIAGRA® Free Sample Pack is right for you.*
http://www.viagra.com/consumer/getStarted/freeTrial.asp

[2Design]

35. pope protects child molesters because it will bankrupt their institution

which may be a good thing for Mother Earth

[sffreeways]

37. Gotta keep those

envelopes rollin in on Sunday what with all of the pedophile stuff cutting into the coffers.

The pope is engaging in what most of the religious community is cashing in on. For some reason homosexuals generate alot of cash for these groups.

[TankLV]

38. Got to divert from the latest pedophillia scandals just reported.

I mean, hiding criminal pedophile priests by routinely shuffeling them around to Europe and all would take presidence over such important issues as keeping 2 loving men or 2 loving women from sanctioning their union. Oh the horror!

But wait, this is just another "catholic bashing" post, right?

[FlemingsGhost]

42. That's why I keep kicking the preists being sheltered thread

And still, folks blindly come to the church's defense.

Wow.

(on edit: as long as I am on the boards today, I will see to it that these two stories are side by side.)

[foo_bar]

43. I thought he was "married to God"

isn't that deisexuality?

[leesa]

47. Go back to sleep.

[Thurston Howell IV]

50. You no play-a da game,

you no make-a da rules.

[Dhalgren]

53. I'm sorry, your Holiness, but marriage contracts

are civil matters and not religious ones. Just because all you ghost peddlers out there want to have a finger in every pie doesn't mean you get to dictate the pie. Civil contracts are civil contracts and have nothing to do with any mythological system of belief.Don't mess with my civil contracts and I won't mess with your ritualistic canniblaism...