Pope Denounces 'Imbalance' of Wealth

[rsmith6621]

Pope Denounces 'Imbalance' of Wealth

If the POPE lived in the USA would he be more prone to vote Kerry????

"The pontiff said Sunday's Gospel passage about Lazarus, an impoverished beggar who ate the scraps from a rich man's table, was "ever more appropriate in reference to the problem of the imbalance between the riches and poverty of the world today"


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=535&ncid=535&e=15&u=/ap/20040926/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_rich_poor_2

[Liberal Veteran]

1. What a commie he is!

He must hate America!

[Carla in Ca]

36. He should talk!

The Vatican has so much (billions) they have masterpieces in closets and stacked against walls; but almost two-thirds of the catholic faith live in squaller!
And speaking of disgusting greed and gluttany, the LA Times had an article yesterday reporting that Crouch of Trinity Broadcasting is making more pleas for dough "whether you can afford it or not".

[Jade Fox]

2. Shall we start with the extremely wealthy Catholic Church? n/t

[leftist.]

9. I'm glad you said it ...

because if you didn't I was going to.

[Warpy]

21. I was going to ask when the Vatican yard sale is

[Xithras]

75. Most of that Catholic "wealth" is a myth.

On paper, my local diocese is worth hundreds of millions and certainly meets the popular definition of the rich Catholic church". Most of that wealth, however, is actually based on the value of the schools, buildings, and land under the churches. In my area, most Catholic land holdings are actually cemetaries...hundreds of acres of land in urban environments that are worth millions on paper, but which can't really be sold or transferred.

Even the various works of art within the Vatican itself are of limited real value. These work of art are historical masterpieces, so I doubt anyone would realistically advocate melting them down or selling them into private collections. So what's that leave? Selling them to a museum? Very few museums have the resources to pay the full real value of the Vatican's extensive collections, and most would sit unsold until some rich private collector convinced them to part with them.

Real wealth, defined as liquid assets that can be parted with without undermining the mission of the church, isn't as readily available as you'd think.

[havocmom]

3. Same pope who moved Law to Rome and lets diocese in some cities

move assets then file for bankruptcy when faced with civil suits over child molesting priests?

Dunno, I just have a difficult time believing the sincerity of...

[The Zanti Regent]

24. I don't see the difference between Paul Crouch and the Pope...

...both throw lots of money to folks they screwed...

[Cheswick2.0]

4. some one should tell him that women who control their reproductive lives

are much less likely to be poor.

[arwalden]

5. "... he said as he sat atop his guilded throne"

[zbdent]

6. People, don't get duped. This is an endorsement for Bush

Remember, Bush and Cheney are trying to paint themselves as the po' kids compared to the Heinz fortune.

I remember how many of my Catholic friends and relatives have decided to give up watching football, baseball, and NASCAR because the Pope said so.

[w4rma]

27. No. You couldn't be farther from the truth, imho, zbdent. (nt)

[Carla in Ca]

38. On the other side...

My husband left the church when it was declared that eating meat on Fridays was OK.
This was not easy for him. St. Paul, MN., alter boy, Catholic school, the works. Confession when he and his high school buddies would get a burger on a Friday. He really went through quite an ordeal.
Now he is a man of faith, without the guilt..a happy man indeed.

[zbdent]

74. Should have put the sarcasm note on

Wonder if you responders realized that my Catholic friends and relatives haven't lost their vices . . .

Zero have given up NASCAR. In fact, two of them went to Dover for yesterday's race (with their son) . . .

[Sandpiper]

7. He's right, and to help cure this imbalance

Churches should have their tax exempt status revoked.

[Gman]

8. Stop the Catholic bashing

you wouldn't bash African Americans or Hispanics or anyone else here. Just because someone mentions the Pope or the Catholic Church, you act like you've been given a free pass to bash. Do you not bash Blacks or Hispanics because its wrong, or because you really want to but don't want to get jumped on?

You did not get a free pass to bash Catholics. If you insist on Catholic bashing follow this link. You will be most welcome there among all the other hypocrites: http://www.freerepublic.com

[nostalgicaboutmyfutr]

11. yes...please lay off

the bashing...you neither understand the full picture of Catholsism and do not understand a subtle suggestion to vote for Kerry...

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

33. Hmmm. A new religion? Please enlighten me re: "Catholsism."

LOL... I'll bet your intended target can at least SPELL it.

:toast: Tag.

[Rich Hunt]

57. Very funny

Laughing at the illiterate and / or dyslexic (or maybe it was just a typo).

Is this thread really about criticizing the Catholic church, or does Catholic bashing provide a convenient disguise for snobbery?

[Lefty48197]

13. I second that emotion

.

[leftist.]

16. A very poor argument

Catholics were born of a clean slate and decided to run with the god of their parents choice. Two *extremely* different circumstances. You have to CHOOSE to be a catholic.

[foo_bar]

37. tabula rasa? what of original sin?

[DemBones DemBones]

62. I CHOOSE to be a Catholic -- you have a problem with that?

Neither of my parents was Catholic and I am quite well-informed about the varieties of religious experience.

I have no respect for people who trash my religion.

[Jade Fox]

17. Nonsense. It is not Catholic bashing to criticize the Church any more...

than it is anti-Semitic to criticize Israel, or racist to criticize Alan Keyes, or
sexist to criticize Condi Rice.

Grow up.

[Gman]

47. Absolutely wrong

being anti-semitic is anti-Judaism. Your other two examples don't even make sense.

There's too much Catholic bashing here at an allegedly tolerant forum. Unless you understand the entirety of Catholicism, and not simply priestly sexual abuse or money problems, you have no right to objectively criticize Catholicism.

[Jade Fox]

49. So, one cannot criticize the Catholic Church unless....

one "understands the entirety of Catholicism"?

As I said, nonsense.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[steely]

32. As one who was raised a catholic - to the Pope I say -

lead by example.

[sr_pacifica]

53. very good n/t

[Medium Baby Jesus]

41. There is a difference

between religion and race. Duh

[JohnKleeb]

52. thank you

[DemBones DemBones]

63. Thank you. It is indeed FREEPERISH to bash anyone's religion. nt

[camero]

10. The pope should practice what he preaches

by giving his riches to the poor. He would be emulating the one he supposedly follows.

[Sandpiper]

12. What was it that Jesus said to the rich young ruler?

Sell everything you have, give it to the poor, follow me, and you'll have treasure in heaven.

Ok, I'm waiting for the Pope to give everything he has to the poor.

[camero]

14. Exactly

Not to take away from what he was trying to say, but it's better to lead by example.

[DemBones DemBones]

64. It's not the pope's to give away. Moreover, if the Church

sold everything and gave the money to the poor, I don't think it would end poverty. Political and social conditions continually create poverty.

It would place a lot of great art in private collections where the public could no longer enjoy it and that would be a tragedy. Anyone who has been to the Vatican Museums knows that huge crowds of people visit every day.

[Lefty48197]

91. So now you're St. Peter

I guess Bush isn't the only one living in a fog.

[Lefty48197]

15. I guess there's a lot of morans in here

When anybody in a leadership position mentions that fighting poverty is a good thing, we should hail their words. Apparently, a lot of people in here don't understand that.

[Sandpiper]

18. Actions speak louder than words

n/t

[havocmom]

25. Agreed. Got to thinking on this one. Global mega Corporations are

getting VERY rich & powerful. The middle class is getting screwed royally.

While I applaud the pope's suggestions, one has to wonder about all the motives. The poor have been around for a long time. Didn't just pop up in the past decade. Corporations are getting richer & more powerful. Middle class is disappearing. Corporations probably don't tithe as well as the middle class. So just who/what is the pope really protecting?

And it is not Catholic bashing to question the motives or a very large, very wealthy organization that is highly political.

[QC]

40. The RCC began advocating a living wage and collective bargaining

back in 1892, so I don't think that concern for social justice is a recent thing.

[Gman]

48. No other religion in the world does more for the poor than the Catholic

Church. The Church can speak at length about helping the poor. In fact, the Church believes that doing good deeds for the poor is essential to getting to heaven. That point is a major point of disagreement with Protestants. At least the Church doesn't look down at the poor. It does something about them.

[Sandpiper]

61. No other religion in the world has as much wealth

As the Roman Catholic Church.

It's already been discussed at length, but hearing someone who sits on a gilded throne and lives in a palace talk about the unequal distribution of wealth just sort of rings hollow.

[Lefty48197]

79. Ray Kroc's widow gave one billion dollars to charity

But she lives in a mansion, so I guess that money won't be of any help to poor people, eh?

[Sandpiper]

85. Does Ray Kroc's wife claim to be

The living spokesperson for Jesus on earth?

The same Jesus who told a rich man to sell everything he had and give it to the poor, and that it's easy for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven?

*YAWN*

Next red herring argument.

[Lefty48197]

89. YOU were the one that said wealthy people couldn't

be concerned with the distribution of wealth, and you were wrong when you said it. Can't you admit your mistakes?

[camero]

97. They can't

That would involve them giving up their wealth. We can't have that can we?

[Sandpiper]

99. What mistake would I be admitting to?

A wealthy person who sits on their pile of wealth and decries the unequal distribution of wealth is doing nothing but paying lip service to something they support in theory, but not in practice.

[Rich Hunt]

56. so...

Most people in the world don't have computers, either.

[DemBones DemBones]

65. Have you personally given everything YOU own to the poor, or

will you be doing so tomorrow? If not, you're speaking from a shaky perch.

[camero]

66. Better to give it to the poor themselves

Than to any church that increasingly looks like a country club with no accountability as to where the money goes.

It's not the love of sex but the love of money that's the root of all evil.

It also helps to take the log that is out of one's own eye so they can see to take the sliver that is in his brother's eye.

[DemBones DemBones]

68. Fine, give EVERYTHING you own to the poor and then

you can criticize my Church.

[camero]

69. Already have

Have you? That statement doesn't sound any different than TBN or Pat Robertson. No church is above criticism. Churches are made up of men, not God.

[DemBones DemBones]

72. So you gave your computer to the poor?

<crickets>


Statements trashing the Catholic Church DO sound a lot like Pat Robertson or TBN.

It's not criticism that's the problem, it's the anti-Catholic, hypercritical attitude toward only the Catholic Church. Rare is the post here that even mildly criticizes Judaism, Protestantism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, though all of them are made up of men. But let the word "Catholic" or "Pope" appear in a thread header and people come out of the woodwork to raise issues that have nothing to do with the thread, and to condemn Catholicism even when the pope or a bishop says or does something that would win wide support at DU if anyone else said or did the same thing. It's a virulent form of prejudice.

[Lefty48197]

80. Amen DemBones

These people that hate Catholics need to cleanse their hearts.

[camero]

87. Love the sinner hate the sin

Of course Catholics don't sin do they?

[Lefty48197]

90. Whose ass did you pull that out of?

.

[camero]

92. Answer the question

Of course, your whole argument is just a strawman knocked down by the Vatican's own wealth and actions which go against the book that they supposedly espouse.

Personal attacks don't do anything to enhance the church's credibility. Organized religion is a perfect example of why the church and state should not mix.

[camero]

86. Your posts are ironic

Since it's freepers who ostracize people who criticize religion. Does someone have a guilty conscience about his wealth? Of course, I do remember our prior conversation on this subject.

Ironically again, even the Catholic ecumenical calls those businessmen who don't pay a living wage thieves and calls excess wealth a form of theft from the poor.

[Sandpiper]

78. I don't claim to be Jesus's living spokesman

Or even an adherent to christianity, unlike the Vatican's chief resident.

The Pope, ostensibly the world's #1 christian, lives a life that is pretty inconsistent with his god's teachings about giving to the poor and how difficult it will be for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And you getting mad at me for pointing it out is just "killing the messenger" on your part.

[QC]

19. Yeah, but it's so much more fun to jump on the Catholics!

A few months back he issued a statement decrying the commercializing of Sunday and recommended that people spend that day with their families.

You'd think that liberals would appreciate having a major voice condemn commercialism and remind people that there are things in the world more important than shopping and TV.

But what do you think the reaction was? You get three guesses, and the first two don't count. Yep, it was just like this thread: the usual non sequitors and personal attacks and piling on, with hardly a single post giving any indication that anyone had given even the slightest thought, pro or con, to what the man actually said.

For some people here, any reference to anything having to do with religion is just another excuse for another pile-on.

[Malva Zebrina]

30. In this country the poorest and the lower classes work on Sundays

making the barest of minimum wage in some Wal Mart or similar retail store. The Pope is old, althouth kind, but out of it by suggesting people spend Sunday with their family.

[QC]

39. I think you're right about who works on Sundays.

Goodness knows I did it plenty, back when I was working my way through college. And the people who had just gotten out of church were generally the hardest ones to please. Don't get me started on that....

But his criticism was directed at the larger society's priorities, not individual parents, and the idea that just one day a week should be set aside for family and spiritual matters is one that most liberals, since we claim to oppose mindless materialism, should welcome. I strongly suspect that if a lama or ayatollah or rabbi had said the same thing, the reception would have been totally different.

[camero]

20. Those in leadership positions

are a part of that imbalance from being at the top. Mere words doesn't a person make.

[dkhbrit]

22. Well...

Surely the catholic church could help just with some of the ludicrous gold artefacts that they have amassed and the wealth they have in banks and land?

[Lefty48197]

81. There are countless venues to educate yourself about all the good things

that the Catholic church has done for needy people. I'm betting that you aren't interested...

[camero]

88. Like what?

Serving body attchments to patients who can't afford to pay it's non-profit hospitals? It's a weak argument to call people who criticize organized religion freepers when freepers do exactly what you're doing now.

[Lefty48197]

94. I'm just saying that you are happy to be ignorant

and that you will never lift a finger to educate yourself.

[camero]

96. So educate me

I am aware of Liberation theology and how it is just limited to Latin America and Africa where in no way shape or form do they empower people to cast off the dictators who rule them.

Another strawman.

[Lefty48197]

101. You wear blinders. There is no point in trying to educate you

You hate Catholics. That's all there is to it, and it's quite obvious from your posts.

[camero]

103. More personal attacks I see.

So criticism equals hate in your book?

[Lefty48197]

93. And ignorant statements don't become true just because

someone used those words.

[camero]

95. Calliing Jesus ignorant?

That's a stretch. Of course his words were not as kind as mine. I do believe he called the religious leaders of the time "Vipers and Snakes."

[Lefty48197]

100. Did your teenager write that for you

or did you come up with that all by uself?

[camero]

102. Do you read the Bible?

Or do you act like you do? Do you have anything to contribute besides personal attacks?

Boy, threads like these sure do bring out the wealth apologists.

[VegasWolf]

29. Gotta agree with Sandpiper here. Actions speak louder,

just one of the New York skyscrapers or rental car agencies that
the church owns would go a long way to stopping the world's hunger.
Pope also says stop masturbating, you'll go blind!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

35. Sorry, this strikes me as something akin to David Koresh campaigning

for gun control in the name of religious freedom..

[sr_pacifica]

54. They see hypocrisy

But I also think there's a lot of ignorance of catholicism---a lot! It's one of those topics you need to explore for yourself and not just take whatever the news media dishes out. The Pope, the Vatican, the catholic church, catholicism---there are subtle differences among all these.

[w4rma]

26. Yes, probably. He's said that he thinks Bush may be the anti-Christ.

He also said that if Bush went into Iraq, he went in without God.

[bogey18]

34. Please point me to some evidence that

the Pope said he thinks Bush may be the anti-Christ. I have been having this thought for awhile, and I am not even a Christian!

[w4rma]

42. Pope fears Bush is antichrist, journalist contends

Pope fears Bush is antichrist, journalist contends - Church - journalist Wayne Madsden - Brief Article
New Catholic Times, May 18, 2003

WASHINGTON DC -- According to freelance journalist Wayne Madsden, "George W Bush's blood lust, his repeated commitment to Christian beliefs and his constant references to 'evil doers,' in the eyes of many devout Catholic leaders, bear all the hallmarks of the one warned about in the Book of Revelations--the anti-Christ."

Madsen, a Washington-based writer and columnist, who often writes for Counterpunch, says that people close to the pope claim that amid these concerns, the pontiff wishes he was younger and in better health to confront the possibility that Bush may represent the person prophesized in Revelations. John Paul II has always believed the world was on the precipice of the final confrontation between Good and Evil as foretold in the New Testament.

Before he became pope, Karol Cardinal Wojtyla said, "We are now standing in the face of the greatest historical confrontation humanity has gone through. I do not think that wide circles of the American society or wide circles of the Christian community realize this fully. We are now facing the final confrontation between the church and the anti-Church, of the Gospel versus the anti-Gospel."

The pope worked tirelessly to convince leaders of nations on the UN Security Council to oppose Bush's war resolution on Iraq. Vatican sources claim they had not seen the pope more animated and determined since he fell ill to Parkinson's Disease. In the end, the pope did convince the leaders of Mexico, Chile, Cameroon and Guinea to oppose the U.S. resolution.
…
COPYRIGHT 2003 Catholic New Times, Inc.
COPYRIGHT 2003 Gale Group
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKY/is_9_27/ai_108881880

original article:
http://www.counterpunch.org/madsen04222003.html

Pope to Bush: Go into Iraq and you go without God
By CHB Staff and Wire Reports
Mar 5, 2003, 07:18
…
The Pope also questioned the President's statements invoking God's name as justification for the invasion.

"God is a neutral observer in the affairs of man," the Pope said. "Man cannot march into war and assume God will be at his side."

In Rome, the pope called for "common efforts to spare humanity another dramatic conflict."

The Vatican stands by its view that a pre-emptive strike on Iraq is immoral unless backed by the United Nations, Laghi said.
…
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi?archive=15&num=1883

[never cry wolf]

28. What a DISTURBING thread!

I am not catholic, I am not even sure I am Christian, although I was baptised and confirmed as a Presby. I guess I consider myself an agnostic, believing in some sort of higher power/higher plane of existence. I also believe that the parables/tales/morals taught by Jesus have merit, wether or not the tales are true, and that they represent a goal for humanity to strive for.

Interpretations of these lessons vary greatly, and this is not to say that most major religions don't embrace the same ideals, but the gist is in my interpretation, that bullies suck, greed sucks, put yourself in the other's shoes, compassion for those less fortunate, the golden rule, etc., etc.

I also believe that instutionalized religion has caused more death, destruction and strife throughtout the years than anything else. Live and let live, no matter your beliefs so long as you don't tramp on others ability to do the same.

I feel the current leader of the Roman Catholic faith is a man of peace and of good heart. Moreso than any other pontiff in my lifetime, and maybe forever, he has reached out to those of other faiths. He assisted Jews to escape the ravages of WWII, he played a HUGE role in tearing down the iron curtain. He has consistently been on the side of the poor and downtrodden. As a pope, in my experience, he has been unique.

This is not to say I don't have disagreements with some of his positions such as birth control, abortion, gay rights, etc. But all in all he is a man of peace and I have no doubt that if he had the chance he would vote for Kerry.

[Bridget Burke]

44. Lots of people here just like being anti-Catholic

I'm sure that all of them have given their earthly possessions to the poor.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

45. Thank you. I was born and raised Catholic, altar boy, etc.....

It's the ideal you strive for.
What would Jesus do? He sure as hell wouldn't sit around and post trash like in this thread.
Do not cast stones, just go out into the world and do good works.

[JohnKleeb]

46. thanks, I dont like it either

and I am Catholic, we appreciate when non Catholics defend our guys.

[sr_pacifica]

55. Liberation theology

The anti-catholic posters here I'm sure have no idea what that is. Think latin america and socialism---yes a catholic movement of thought and action.

[Rich Hunt]

58. exactly

Someone flames someone for their spelling, but people are ignorant, not only of the breadth of Catholicism, but of the ugly history of anti-Catholicism right here in the US. And it still lurks in the upper and upper middle class sectors, and among the fundies. Just look at the argument that religion is not race because you 'choose' a religion. Exactly the sort of Protestant anti-pluralism that has plagued the US from the beginning. Religion is culture, it's heritage and when you have a nasty history of being told to emulate WASPs, why should you abandon your heritage to please them?

Way to go, snobs. Go back to the east coast university that spawned you and learn some history.

[Malva Zebrina]

31. Somehow I would not object if it were the Dali Lama saying this

but, even though the Pope has a good heart, it rings tinny and hypocritical for this man whose ministry is one of the richest in the world to preach husbandry of the poor. It somehow just does not fit.

[DemBones DemBones]

71. What did the Dalai Lama do with the cash prize he got when

he won the Nobel Prize? Does he live in poverty? I'm pretty sure he lives at a shrine in India, which I'd guess is a pretty posh place, even if he sleeps on the floor. And how does he afford to jet around the world? Does he have his own plane or does he fly first class or coach? Just wondering. . .

Also, I've never heard of Buddhist, Hindu, or Muslim shrines, temples, mosques, or artworks made for these places, being sold to help the poor. Protestant churches have wealth of their own and I don't see them selling off properties, either. Protestants aren't often exhorted to help the poor, either, in my experience growing up Protestant. Nor do I see Jewish congregations selling their possessions to help the poor.

Why is the Catholic Church supposed to do something that other religions don't?

[Lefty48197]

82. Because of anti-Catholic bigotry.

It is so prevalent in this country. Ignorance is a very sad thing.

[Matilda]

43. He's not necessarily pushing a political barrow here or taking sides

in the U.S. election - after all, both candidates are very wealthy.
It's more about social justice worldwide.

The Catholic Church, like any other religious organisation that has
a large charitable works program, must have investments in order to
maintain sufficient resources to be effective. My personal view is
that the Church should be careful to follow ethical investments -
there are a number of organisations around the world that could
assist in this - so that they are not seen to support mega-
corporations that rely on exploitation of workers, for example.

I do have a problem with the vast amount of wealth the Church holds
in the form of paintings, gold and other precious ornaments that
just sit around - I think it would be better if they were sold off,
so everyone could enjoy them, and the Church could invest the profits
in a way that would enable more of its charitable works to be funded.

There was a pope not so long ago who advocated this, John Paul I,
and he didn't live long. Some people think there was a connection
between what he said, and his sudden demise. I don't know, but I
do know that his recommendations that the Church shed much of its
earthly wealth horrified the Vatican hierarchy.

[happyslug]

60. Three Objections to the Vatican Selling its "Assets"

First are the art assets, these can be Worth millions, but do you want them removed from Museums open to the Public and transferred to Private Museums? A lot of the Vatican "Wealth" are in these pieces of Art, to sell them would deny many people from seeing these pieces of Art.

Here a list of the Vatican's Museums and Libraries

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/vaticano/0-Musei.html
http://mv.vatican.va/3_EN/pages/MV_Home.html

The Vatican Library:
http://www.vatican.va/library_archives/index.htm


Second, When Harry S Truman ended his Presidency he was advised by former President Herbert Hoover to put a fence around his house to keep out people. When Harry objected, Herbert pointed out the problem was NOT with people trying to do you harm but people who wanted to see you because you had been the President. Harry did without the Fence for a Few years and than put one up, just to keep people from driving their cars right into his yard. All leaders of All Countries suffer form this problem. Even Governors of the States suffer from this problem.

The same goes with Bishops and the Pope, these are high visibility people and people will want to "See" them. Such people do need some privacy, it is way the White House has a gate around it (but tours are made of the White House). Such "Security" i.e. Security to give the Pope and the Bishops SOME privacy costs money. The pope and the Bishops (like the leaders of most Countries) have to have SOME place to go. They can NOT use Public areas (Though often such Private Areas are open to the Public at times when the leader is not using the Private Areas). This costs money and thus an expense. It is not like the Vatican is closed to the world, most of it is open to the public. To keep something open to the Public and available for Private use cost even more money than closing them off from the public all of the time.

Thus the need to preserve SOME semblance of a Private Life is a cost of the Church, a cost it has to pay.

Third, the Vatican is also a World Wide Organization. It has contacts all over the world. When Sadr was about to be overrun by American forces earlier this month he agreed to mediation by the Vatican, a mediation the Vatican could do given its world wide connections. There are costs to keep up these connections and these costs are tied in with cost of keeping up the Church.

A fourth reason is the cost of existing. If you exist in the modern world you will be subject to disputes which can lead to a lawsuits. Such lawsuits must also be resolved, either through compromise or litigation. In litigation there is always the possibility of losing (and often in litigation the issue in dispute is NOT that the Church owes something but how much, which is the case in most cases of litigation). This is complicated by the fact the church deals not only with adults but children. Where you have Children you will have pedophiles sooner or later. The recent problem with the Church and the Pedophiles (i.e. 1980-present) is NOT that such evil occurred but how the bishops handled the cases.

I have followed the Pedophiles cases since they started in the early 1980s. One of the things you find out was the early lawsuits were NOT against the Church but against Public Schools and Day Care centers (roughly 1980-1985). These lawsuits ended for two reason inter-related reason. First while the lawsuits were successful against the person who did the pedophile act, their employer was either ruled as being "Sovereign Immunity" i.e. the victim could NOT recover from the School District for it was immune from the acts of its agents but could collect from the now bankrupt perpetrator, OR (The second reason) the Private Day Care Provider went bankrupt for such Day Care Centers were rarely insured and almost never had sufficient funds to pay off any judgment.

After these two sets of lawsuits ended in almost no recovery for the victims the next set of cases where against the Catholic Church (and other religious organizations). Now the Catholic Church had Assets AND was not a governmental entity so could not claim sovereign immunity. It was a perfect target for a lawsuit (Furthermore under some very weak Bishops various Dioceses had adopted policies that avoided the Bishop of having to dismiss a priest and this lead to pedophile priests being transferred over and over again when they should have been transferred to a place with no children).

The Church lost a big case around 1985 (I believe out of Louisiana) and most if not all Diocese responded by tightening up their control over their priests (one way was to re-impose the pre-Vatican II rule that No private person could enter the private parts of the Rectory. If some priest did so he had to explain why and the burden of proof was on the priest). Many of the old rules governing how a Priest was to live had been dropped after Vatican II, the problem is many of these rules had been adopted do to past pedophile scandals. The rules were re-imposed starting about 1985.

The problem was the statute of limitation governing lawsuits involving crimes against children do not start to till the child turns age 18. These are generally four years stature of Limitations thus the child has to file an action against the perpetrator prior to turning age 22. Thus you can have a 20 year gap between the time of the crime and when the lawsuit commence. Such lawsuits can last 4-5 years. Thus many of the Lawsuits you are hearing of today involves incidents from the 1980s BEFORE THE ADOPTION OF RULES THAT CURTAILED SUCH CRIMES. Almost none of the Claims reaching court today are for crimes that occurred after 1985 (and none that I know of for any crime after 1990). The church has learned its lesson but one it will have to pay for over the next decades or so. These "costs" for actions in the past are also a cost of being a Catholic Church.

Now I am NOT advocating the Church should NOT have to pay the victims for the crime done to the victims by the Agents (i.e. the Priests) of the Church such payments are the cost of being a Church (Such payments will also force the Church to follow its own rules as to what to do regarding charges of Child Abuse) but you MUST keep such payments and crimes in prospective, such abuse was NOT the policy of the Church and No Court has ever ruled so, the problem was a failure of past bishops to supervise their own priests. Resolving these claims is a cost the Church has to incur a part of the cost of being the Catholic Church. If the church were to give away all of its assets, there would be no assets to pay for the harm done to the victims of the Abusive Priests. Remember e are talking about the Catholic Church not some one preacher church, but the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church can not just closed a church and open a new one down the Street under a new name (and avoiding the bills for the closed Church). The Catholic Church has to pay its debts and is making a effort to do so. I compared that to the Various Public Schools Districts that ignored pedophile charges, just like the Catholic Church did, but did not pay a Penny under the concept of Sovereign Immunity. The victim in either case suffered great harm, but at least the Catholic Church is paying for some of its mistakes (I will acknowledge that many cases of Pedophilia did not end in a lawsuit and the victim left without any compensation for the harm done, but at least the Church is making an effort to resolve the problem more than I can say about other sections of our society).


My point here was to show the Church may have a lot of Assets, but much of the Assets are NOT readly to be used to help the poor. What assets the Church as over and above the above costs it makes an effort to provide for the poor. Catholic Relief Agency is one of the Social Agency I sent many of my Clients to (they can not give as much as the state but they do give a good bit). I have seen where their agency works out of, it is NOT some property that if sold would bring much money and I fear most church property is of that type NOT downtown real estate. The church does help but it does NOT have the assets of the State nor of the 2% richest people in this Country no matter what you may think.

[DemBones DemBones]

67. Excellent explanation -- let's hope many people read it.

A book could no doubt be written on the great cost of maintaining and restoring Church buildings and artworks that are hundreds of years old. Somehow, I don't think the world would be a better place if the great cathedrals of Europe were sold off and converted into condos for the rich, or if a private collector were able to purchase masterpieces like Michangelo's 'Pieta.'

[Matilda]

70. I'm not sure that your reply is actually relevant to what I was saying.

Not to say you're not making valid points, but they have nothing to
do with my post, which was purely about using the assets of the
Church for charitable works - and by assets I clearly was referring
to artworks and religious artifacts. Many of these are on display
to the public; many are not. If money can be raised through viewing
artworks and religious regalia in the Vatican Museum, this is fine.
Otherwise, sell them, invest the profits and support works of charity
throughout the world.

Further, I made the point that the Church must hold investments in
order to fund its religious work - some earlier posts indicated
disapproval of the Church speculating, but if it were to sell its
assets and just disperse the money, there would obviously be nothing
left in a very short time. My point was for ethical investment,
still providing a good return, but not giving support to companies
that exploit people or manufacture anything that would be contrary
to Christian teaching (arms, for example).

[Lefty48197]

83. Don't forget that you suggested that somebody in the Vatican

may have murdered Pope John Paul I. I picked up on it.

[Matilda]

98. There is a conspiracy theory about the sudden death of John Paul I.

A book was written about it (Link:http://www.yallop.co.uk/in_god's_name.ht)

I really don't know - I read the book quite a while ago, and it
wouldn't surprise me a bit if he was allowed to die by way of
delaying medical attention. It's all to do with the Vatican Bank
and Banco Ambrosiano scandal, the death of Roberto Calvi (which has
just been reopened for investigation in England)lots of dirty deeds
to do with money laundering and shonky financial deals which the
Vatican Bank almost certainly knew about. Fascinating reading.

I do know that to some churchmen in the Vatican hierarchy, pretty
well anything can be justified in order to protect Mother Church
but whether they would actually murder a pope because he might have
blown the lid off a lot of scandalous dealings, is something I
really don't know. But his death sure was convenient for some.

[sonicx]

50. good for him

but i still like football on sunday. ;)

[Amigust]

51. Does that mean he is ready to distribute the vast wealth of

the Catholic Church to those less endowed?

[Rich Hunt]

59. nice to see

...so much sudden concern for the poor here on DU.

[burrowowl]

73. More prone to vote for Kucinich

My Sisiter and I were telephoning for Kerry. One guy said Kerry is a socialist, I won't vote for him. My Sister was for once at a lost for words, given that recently we visited Leon's house in Mexico DF for my sake. I told her, tell them your Sister is socialist and Kerry doesn't come within parsecs of being a Socialist, let alone France, Germany, Sweden, etc., etc.
To paraphrae Gore Vidal: Murica has 2 right wings.
Social justice is just not in the Murican vocab. When I told a freind in France that we had privatized prisons, she just laughed at me and said I was pulling her leg. So, I gave her some info. She was askance.

As for Catholic, there is Liberation Theology and Raygun who killed Maryknoll preists and nuns along with 200,000 Guatemalean Indians.
There is the social justice, anti-capital punishment, etc. part of the Church and I know of that part who have given their lives in Lating America and nuns in prison in the Who S of A$$ for proteting the School of the Americas.
I don't like JP II, I hope we get another John XXIII, but if you go to votingcatholic.org you will find that the position of the US bishops is rather against Bu$h. And the Vatican is scared shitless Bu$hie will win, re Cardinal Rati's remarks on: if you vote only because a candidate is pro-choice not good, however in a secular society one must take into consideration a range of positions ....etc.
Like the Vatican does not think Iraq is a just war, nor that preemption or having nukes is good either.

[tom_paine]

76. So, the Pope is a Communist who hates Amerika!

Amerika, an aristocratic and slavish nation, is BUILT since it's inception in late 2000, on Orwellian Lies, State-Run Propaganda and grinding Wealth Inequality.

Why should it change to some hippie Free Love,welafre state, eh?

Besides, Christ was a Militant Fundamnetalist who HATED the poor, don't you know?

[SemperEadem]

77. let the pope look to the gold and riches his old butt is sitting on

right at this moment before he starts criticising what's someone else is has got. If the catholic church would melt down all of their gold, they could feed the world for the next 500 years. I see that he doesn't do that. I see him hording and counting his riches--collecting it every Sunday.

Let the Bishop of Rome look to that.

[JackDragna]

84. How nice!

John Paul II, a man who has been in bed with many right-wing dictators in his lifetime and has spent countless hours decrying "communism" (any government left of Franco), now complains about the inequality of wealth in the world. The Vatican must hire humorists.