Troops angry over no-hookers plan

[RamboLiberal]

http://interestalert.com/brand/siteia.shtml?Story=st/sn/09270000aaa02fc6.upi&Sys=rmmiller&Fid=NATIONAL&Type=News&Filter=National%20News

U.S. troops stationed in Germany are upset over plans to change the Uniform Code of Military Justice to make paying for sex a punishable offense.

In Germany, unlike other areas of the world where U.S. troops are stationed, prostitution is legal and women who choose the world's oldest profession are taxed like any other workers. They also are given regular health checks.

Pfc. Marty Conyers of the 464th Replacement Detachment on Rhein-Main told the European edition of Stars & Stripes changing the UCMJ would be unfair to troops.

"It would be different if it were some third-world country that had no jobs and no opportunity, and women were forced into it," Army Sgt. Adam Z. Pastor said. "It's a little bit pushy to enforce that law here."

Military wife Dana Molnar advises defense officials to stop fretting over troops's sex lives.

[Jack_Dawson]

1. Why is Prostitution Illegal in the first place?

If there's a market for it...who cares?

[Warpy]

5. It's illegal in order to keep hookers completely powerless.

There is no other reason for it. Most strong feminists have wanted it legalized and regulated for decades, with health checks and preventive medicine.

[Renew Deal]

20. fuck the hookers

:evilgrin:

[Seabiscuit]

66. No,

FU!

You obviously don't get it.

[geek tragedy]

35. Yeah right.

Just like most feminists think porn is a great thing.

Uh huh.

[jdj]

57. "most feminists" think...?

link please.

[Seabiscuit]

69. Oh, the techie-compu geek response to everything?

I'm so sick of "site, please" I could puke as much as watching Dubya on TV.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

85. "the techie-compu geek response to everything?"

Link, please?

I don't think so. It's a DU thing that likes to differentiate fact from opinion. It's especially prevalent in LBN.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

100. actually a lot of femininsts do think porn is a great thing

feminism like every ideal has evolved over time...and ideas have changed through the ages

[geek tragedy]

106. And even more think it's an awful thing.

I don't understand, though. Why wouldn't women like films that portray them as semen recepticles?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

107. adult women should be able to decide themselves

whether or not they want to be semen recepticles. this is why i support porn. it is not my decision to make about some one else's body.

[geek tragedy]

108. I'm not saying porn should be banned, only that it tends to degrade women.

I support the right to produce porn, but not porn itself.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

110. i support some porn

just not most

[cheezus]

6. well, you know how the right feels about unregulated capitalism

oh wait

[2Design]

14. church

[TrustingDog]

63. it goes back to the day when men where so

jealous of women's ability to birth... the priests were a bit pissed that they couldn't do that thing, so they made female sexuality dirty and ugly with their word alone.

and it's still here today.
how we've progressed.

[Seabiscuit]

67. Right on!

Religion (not just Christianity, in its various forms) has suppressed women throughout the ages, deliberately obfuscating their procreative ability with their sexuality.

Fuck that part of history, I say. I'm with you all the way. Women have rights, whether some bald old conservative a-hole judge or congressman or priest or rabbi or mullah or whatever likes it or not. And that includes the right to use practice the "oldest trade in the world", especially in a country like Germany where it's recognized as legal.

Just one more example of how far ahead of America the Europeans are on social and political issues. Americans as a whole have become sated and brain-dead. That's how our media got co-opted by the radical right, because they have so many brain-dead followers, who just want to be told what to think.

[SotarrTheWizard]

2. It's obvious. . .

. . .the Army wants to screw its' troops, and demands they be faithful . . . . }(

[Lefta Dissenter]

4. .

[tlcandie]

28. OMG ..

I think that IS the funniest thing I've read in a LONG time! :+

[DemoTex]

3. The French Foreign Legion used to travel with mobile bordellos.

Bernard B. Fall describes an official brothel on the banks of the Nam Youn (river) in his excellent history of the Viet-mihn defeat of the French Foreign Legion in 1954, Hell in a Very Small Place: The Siege of Dien Bien Phu.

[LibertyLover]

8. Military Brothels-Nothing new under the sun.

In World War I, the French offered to make their military prostitutes and mobile brothels available for the American troops in the AEF. General Pershing had to turn them down saying that if he agreed he would never hear the end of it from the Congress or American public even though he had no particular problem with it.

The control of prostitution by the US military has a long history - one of the cooler research projects I worked on when I was doing a master's in Military History was prostitution and the US military.

[geek tragedy]

36. I believe the technical term is

"comfort women."

[jdj]

58. civil war camps had their own groups of prostitutes too

[Sin]

64. Irony

The thing i find funny is they Slang of Hooker came from the civil war. I forget exactly what rank he had So I'll just leave it at General Hooker brought a group of girls with him behind his men the eventually they became know as hookers girls but it was just shortened it to hooker. :)

[Eloriel]

88. The FIRST "hookers," named after General Hooker

IIRC.

[Seabiscuit]

70. Please, tell us more...

about what you learned in your studies.

Seriously.

This is an important issue.

[Sin]

83. Some info you asked for

Here are 2 links one about hooker
very last paragraph has the reference about the nick name they got and the other is about about the 1860s lady i think the second paragraph has the info on "Hookers girls" hope that helps:)

http://www.floridareenactorsonline.com/sex.htm

http://www.swcivilwar.com/hooker.html

[LibertyLover]

99. Studies on Prostitution

Well, it's been a few years, and I've gotten interested in other areas of history, but a couple of the things I remember off the top of my head (I'm at the office and not near any of my books) was that during World War I the military was given (or just took and nobody of importance complained) wide powers around training camps and embarcation points to remove and otherwise restrict the sale of sex to the troops. It was at that point more a health issue on the military's side - without antibiotics, venerial disease really did impact troop strength. During the Vietnam War, some camp commanders actually arranged for prostitutes for their troops. They were generally housed just off-base but were inspected and treated by the base medics. Also, during World War II there was such a problem with young teenaged girls, usually called Liberty girls, around military bases engaging in casual prostitution (by that I mean engaging in sexual relations out of a sense of patriotism and not specifically for money or other tangible items) that the military got the local civil governments to implement some of the first age specific curfews in an attempt to cut down on the practice. Again the problem was more from a disease spreading standpoint, at least on the military's part.

There are two very interesting books that handle the subject Let the Good Times Roll and The First Strange Place.

Let me know if you have a more specific question and I'll be happy to see if I can find you an answer.

[barbaraann]

7. This is a distraction.

The soldier are more upset over not having WEAPONS, AMMUNITION, PROTECTIVE CLOTHING, REAL JUSTIFICATIONS FOR GOING TO WAR, AND RELEASE FROM ACTIVE DUTY WHEN THEY HAVE SERVED THEIR TIME. The Bush administration is just trying to make the soldiers look bad.

[Seabiscuit]

71. Don't confuse our troops in Germany with out troops in Iraq!!!

You raise very important issues, but this is the wrong thread - this has to do with our troops in GERMANY!

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

50. Is she a "goer?"

Wink Wink, Nudge Nudge!



Are there any photos of her around, like, (choke, gasp, shudder) Dr. Laura?

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Surf Cowboy]

87. Say no more. Wink, wink...

[Calico Jack Rackham]

10. Normally I would say big deal

however, Germany is the number 2 country(after the US)for women who are trafficked illegaly for the sex industry. I don't believe that morality should be legislated especially for servicemen facing war, but it is also a little naive to think that prostitution is a victimless crime.

[Roy Robertson]

17. Define please "trafficked illegaly for the sex industry" ??

Could you elaborate?

I see that term used alot. "Sexual slavery" is another one. They sound bad, but I never see them explained or defined, and the people who use them sometimes seem to use them interchangeably with "prostitution", as if there really were no difference.

If an aniline dye factory in the Ruhr contracts with some middle-man to provide it with "guest-workers" from Turkey, and he does so, and arranges transportation and legal immigration and lodging for the workers, and collects a fee for it, is that "human trafficking"?

If other guest-workers from Turkey makes similar deals, to strut their stuff on the Kurfürstendamm, is that different in some way? I suspect it's healthier than working in the chemical plant, and I suspect the pay is better too.

[Xithras]

21. You really need to look this up

There are really two forms of abuse here. The first is really outright slavery, and is more prevalent in areas like the former Yogoslav Replublic though it can be found all over Europe. In this case, women are either kidnapped or tricked into leaving their home countries by promises of jobs or even marriage. Once away from their homelands and support network, they are beaten and raped into submission, until they become a genuine sex slave.

The other form of abuse is typically less violent, but still debt slavery. In much of the world women join prostitution rings willingly in order to make money, but soon find themselves owned by schemes last seen in the US coal mining days. The women service plenty of johns and make a lot of money, but are forced to pay 80% or 90% back to their "owners" to cover everything from food to rent. They can be "fined" thousands of dollars for minor infractions (like refusing to sleep with ANYONE, or spending two minutes too long...or too short...with a customer), and typically only pocket a few dollars a customer. These women are transferred around Europe as their debt is "sold" between the slaveholders, and they usually end up running away without ever making any money (those caught running away have been crippled or killed as a result).

FYI, there are more slaves in the United States and Europe today than at any other time in the last 500 years. Want a 15 year old girl as your own personal sex slave? It'll cost you $3000 in Prague. A hot 20 year old with the body of a model? $5000, but you can trade the 15 year old in when you're done with her to bring the price down.

This is some sick stuff, and it's hard to believe that it goes on in the world today. But it DOES

[Roy Robertson]

25. Can you recommend a good article on the subject? (nfm)

[Calico Jack Rackham]

55. Try reading almost anything by

Dr. Donna M. Hughes. She is an authority on the subject.

[TheWraith]

44. Ludicrous.

"FYI, there are more slaves in the United States and Europe today than at any other time in the last 500 years."

At the time of the Civil War, there were three million slaves in the U.S.. Are you trying to suggest that there are more than three million sex slaves in the U.S. today? Because I don't buy that.

[Dogmudgeon]

45. Maybe world-wide

I would consider 3 million to be a low figure, if you're counting slavery around the world.

In the USA and Europe, that number is much lower, but it's still far too high.

--bkl

[Calico Jack Rackham]

54. Well........

Humans are smuggled conventionally across traditional borders using forged documents, or by bribing immigration officials and border police. In order to smuggle women into countries, many criminal syndicates in the former Soviet Union have established fraudulent firms that claim to provide legitimate job opportunities abroad. These are in reality trafficking fronts, which cover their illegal activity under the guise of legal organizations dealing with tourism, models, and marital agencies. They use legal means to get young women into destination states. and then force them into prostitution when they arrive.

Women are by far the most exploited and desired human commodity in the trafficking business and they are used primarily for prostitution. The “travel agents” as these traffickers are sometimes referred to, reap the profits of these exploited humans and thrive off the reluctance of industrialized states to accommodate the pressure of the crime. Inside this booming criminal industry, reliable estimates indicate that world wide, 200 million people may be in some way under the sway of traffickers; furthermore the estimated annual profit for forced prostitution is 7 to 11 billion dollars annually. These profits are used in turn to finance other crimes such as drug trafficking and money laundering.

Another tragedy in this business is that the laws have not been traditionally harsh or strict globally, in order to deter trafficking; therefore, smugglers can make more money dealing in humans than they can dealing in narcotics, and not have to face severe penalties. The monetary profit of human trafficking is double that of the annual earnings of the Medillian cartel at the peak of its power.

The forced prostitution of women is known as “White Slavery”. The reasons that white slavery has not been as widely reported on in the past was not only due to the fact that it was not considered a big deal, but that it was very secretive and very dangerous to expose or get information on. According to Sherry Ricchiardi, a reporter with the American journalism review states, “The script of white slavery resembles a hard core porn flick. Traumatized victims describe being locked in cages, chained to beds, starved, burned with cigarettes, beaten and gang raped until they are broken and forced to perform sexual acts on command”.

[prodigal_green]

82. women are kidnapped or told they'll have jobs

as maids or factory workers and then they are raped, beaten and tortured, their papers taken away, told they will be killed if they try to escape, etc., etc.

Check out just about any human rights organization and you'll find information about this.

Human Traffickers are not travel agents, anymore than narcotics traffickers are pharmeceutical reps.

[Shallah Kali]

68. sex slavery is a problem in countries where prostitiution is legal as well

as the ones where it is illegal. I recall reading an article about this as a growing problem in the Netherlands where prostition is legal. The customers wanted cheaper rates. Human trafficking rivals drug trafficking as a global money maker especially as slavers get less time for selling human beings than for selling drugs.

Here is one article on this:

UN damns Czech-German child sex
Child "bazaars" exist along Czech-German border, report says
The United Nations organisation for children, Unicef, has produced a damning report on child prostitution on the German-Czech border.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3221905.stm

Tens of thousands of Germans cross the border to abuse the children, officials say.

Children as young as eight have been seen negotiating over sex practices and prices - and some are paid only in sweets, according to the report's author.

-----

[Seabiscuit]

73. Think for a minute...

Our troops in Germany are basically BORED.

Why the hell can't they be allowed to have a little fun with legal prostitutes??? They're safe, medically and legally regulated... where's the beef?????????

I say live and let live.

[saigon68]

81. Rape camps?

Where are the Rape Camps?

[dogman]

11. Remind me, were we fighting to remove the Taliban or

keep it installed in our country?

[Disturbed]

12. Freedom?

Hmm.... Isn't that what the Military is spozed to be fighting for?

[SoCalDem]

13. As long as there are men in uniform, there will be soldiers looking

for female companionship.. You cannot legislate away sexual desires.. You can TRY...but you will never succeed..

Criminalizing it will not stop it.. Lots of soldiers are married and faithful, but lots are single..and some are married but not monogamous ..What's the point of making them into "criminals"??

Morality legislation NEVER works.. We have some really DUMB people in charge..

disclaimer: I am personally NOT in favor of soldiers seeking out prostitutes,but who am I to tell guys I don;t even know, how to act in their off-duty hours..

Onward Christian Soldiers... no booze...no smokes...no girls..

That will "attract" a very different type of soldier than we have ever had..

Can you say..Religious Zealot???..I thought you could :(

[2Design]

15. abstinence is a rw value - and being forced down people's

throat and they are not allowed to use birth control either or plan for a family

[Disturbed]

16. Amerkian Taliban

The so-called Christian Right Wing are dominating our country.

I call the the anti-Christ Neo Fascists.

[Roy]

80. "abstinence (forced on others) is a rw value"

Right wing values are what they want to force on others.
Not values to be practiced by themselves.

[Seabiscuit]

74. BINGO!

FINALLY someone who said it all in a nutshell.

[Skittles]

18. aw, the poor guys can't use women as semen receptacles

:nopity:

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PassingFair]

24. I scorn F-hires-M, don't be ridiculous, I have a hand ...

and I'm not afraid to use it!

[Roy Robertson]

27. But isn't this just a case of "different strokes for different folks"??

I'm on fairly good terms with my hand, too, (as they say, you don't have to look your best), but I wouldn't criticize a woman who decided she wanted to hire a real live flesh-and-blood guy for the evening. It's not ridiculous at all. She might get off on dirty socks and underwear just dropped on the floor and left there for the maid to pick up, who are we to judge?

[PassingFair]

30. Using another humanbeing for sexual gratification

and caring nothing for them as a person (whether you pay them or not) is something I judge to be abhorrent. If I get off on dirty socks and underwear, I can be pretty sure they won't get pregnant, or diseased, or beaten up by pimps, or dehumanized.

[They_LIHOP]

32. Yes, and you are entitled to YOUR OPINION...

As others are EQUALLY ENTITLED TO THEIRS. You find the subject distasteful, that's fine. But you have no right to push your values onto others. Do you like it when the wing-nuts do that to US? I didn't think so...

Further:
"I can be pretty sure they won't get pregnant, or diseased, or beaten up by pimps, or dehumanized."

Those outcomes are, for the most part, the direct result of the ILLEGALITY of prostitution. People who think like you, who make it illegal, make it WORSE for the very people you're trying to protect. It's identical to the stupid 'war on drugs'. Nearly every serious harm that results from 'drugs' is actually due to their ILLEGALITY, an obvious fact if you spend some time thinking about it. Same way w/prostitution.

Lastly, I find it completely ridiculous for producing 'porn' to be 'legal', yet prostitution is not. There is little or no difference, is there?

[ScreamingMeemie]

38. Ummmm....this is a board for opinions to be posted.

I happen to agree with PassingFair. So mark me down as a "people who think like you"

Thanks,
:hi:

[Piperay]

79. Same here nt

:shrug:

[jdj]

59. Many, many prostitutes would agree with you on that one

Kudos to Jenna Jameson for taking control of her image from the male-dominated porn industry and pocketing the money her ass makes. To me this is real feminism.

[Roy Robertson]

33. If a woman hires a guy for sexual gratification,

do you feel that the guy is being dehumanized? It's easy to imagine a situation where they both enjoyed each other's company for the time they were together, tried to give each other pleasure, parted on friendly terms, maybe she gives him a tip? Doesn't sound abhorrent to me, sounds fairly pleasant, cheerful, and civilized.

[ScreamingMeemie]

40. Yep. The guy is being dehumanized.

And it's abhorrent, in my opinion. :hi:

[Roy Robertson]

42. Well, I guess we disagree, then...

But I've said my piece.

It's interesting to me how often Ms and Fs disagree on this issue. The sociobiologists tell us that "Life is DNA's way of making more DNA". It's an interesting viewpoint. For us mammals, they could just as well have said "Sex is DNA's way of making more DNA" You might expect that an F-critter who produces one fertile DNA egg a month might have one kind of reproductive strategy, while an M-critter who produces 50 gazillion DNA sperm cells every time he sees BayWatch might have a different kind of reproductive strategy, more like "if it moves, try to fertilize it".

Present company excepted, of course. Cheers!

[Skittles]

31. did I say I object

I said I have NO PITY FOR ASSHOLES WHO USE PEOPLE IN SUCH A DERADING MANNER. *PERIOD*

[joefree1]

39. Yeah, we're doing such a fine job stopping prostitution here

Stop exploitation? Disease?

Last time I drove downtown I still saw plenty of prostitution. The stupid moral police will just drive prostitution underground where it can't be controlled. Ever heard of Prohitbition? Didn't work either.

But then the pimps and the sexual predators love it when the moral police outlaw something.

And then young red blooded American soldiers will have to resort to "dating" the daughters of foreigners.

Or I guess they could do what convicts do to get release. Prey on the smaller and weaker.

Yeah, good plan. (sarcasm off/)

[Skittles]

41. who said anything about stopping prostitution?

I don't think it should be illegal - but that doesn't mean it isn't disgusting and degrading. Get a release? Wack off.

[TheWraith]

47. For the most part, it's degrading because it's illegal.

In places like Nevada, where it's legal, the workers are healthy, protected, and tend to be those who enjoy their job.

[Skittles]

89. LOL

a healthy, well-adjusted woman would never allow herself to be used in such a degrading manner. I think it's very telling that the men who try to convince themselves women enjoy being prostitutes would never advise their mother/sister/daughter to become one.

[Eloriel]

93. Sorry, the illegality has nothing to do with its degradation

Commoditizing sex -- making it into a "product" aong with those who provide sex into products themselves -- is by definition degrading and dehumanizing. There isn't much else in life I can think of that is MORE degrading than prostitution. As a prostitute your whole "purpose" is to be used by someone in the most personal and private way imaginable. Your individuality and humanity, whatever it is that makes you an individual human being, is irrelevent and to a certain extent gets in the way.

There is no secret about why drug addiction and alcoholism are rampant among prostitutes -- to medicate the pain of that very dehumanization and degradation. Don't imagine that legal prostitution is any better.

Further, most prostitutes and other sex industry workers were sexually abused or assaulted as children. They're damaged goods to start with. Prostitution is one way of acting out THAT pain, while it simultaneously continues and extends their exploitation. I've often thought to myself: how perversely clever of society to find a way to create "willing" sex industry workers.

[joefree1]

56. Ah, then we agree and disagree

Prostitution should be legal.

Is it disgusting? Not to many outside puritan America. In another life, in a legal environment, I would consider it less disgusting then then a thousand other so called legitimate occupations. Do you think we all share your sense of what is disgusting (no matter your dramatic but clinical point of view).

And whack off? Do you really think that young red blooded soldiers would put up with that? Abstinence or constant self service was not even an option when I was in my twenties. No way.

Ask a prison guard or traveler to some of the more repressed parts of the world what happens when sexual passion is repressed without release. I've seen both. Things get very weird.

[Seabiscuit]

76. Repression not only leads to "weird"ness...

It also leads to violence.

Just look at what those "backed up" Repuke neo-cons are like - now they have the reigns of power, they are the most violent, despicable creatures this planet has ever seen (worse than Watergate, worse than Ivan the Terrible, worse than Napoleon, worse than Mussolini, worse than Hitler, in the final analysis).

[SotarrTheWizard]

91. Really. . . . .after all, ANYONE can become a Republican. . .

. . . .and that's about as much of a whore as it gets. . .

[Seabiscuit]

75. Shee-it, Yeah!

I was propositioned by females countless times in my youth. I won't tell you whether or not I took any of them up on it, but I will tell you I saw nothing morally wrong with it.

What's good for the gander is good for the goose!

[Darth_Kitten]

95. LOL!!!!!!

:nopity: Guys, meet Mr.Hand, he's going to be looking after you for awhile :spank: :wow: :smoke:

[goforit]

19. Angry, ya say????.......Then fire your boss. You know who.

[GoldenOldie]

22. Whata way to get out of your military commitment!

Now you don't have to shoot yourself in the foot. You just say your gay or you hired a prostitute. Think this is Asscroft's doing.

They are using the Military Police, NG and Reserves and placing them in different specialties. Where are they going to get the Military Police to monitor all these military who choose to partake of a prostitute.

This truly has become Animal Farm

[Joanne98]

26. Send the troops in Germany a Betty Bowers e-buke card...(funny)

What ever happened to the powerful and wrathful God of the Bible? I've looked for Him, but a cuddly, weepy wimp of an imposter -- the Oprah Jesus -- has replaced Him. Apparently, an angry, judgmental God was "testing negative" in an America that prefers to act upon its cherished self-esteem with neither judgment nor consequence. After all, what place does the concept of adultery have in a country that has exchanged the immorality of the act of cheating with the victimhood of the "disease" of sex addiction?

http://www.bettybowers.com/oprah.html


New Age "Jesus is Love" Hallmark Greeting Card Christians make the real Jesus reach for His Vicodin! Now, you can let them know how irritating their Disneyfied Jesus is to the wrathful God depicted in the Bible. Send them an automated, head-spinning rebuke: the E-buke! Just press a button and Betty & Jesus do the rest!
You can send an E-buke from this page letting someone know they are a Fake Christian -- or CLICK HERE to send an E-buke to let someone know that Landover Baptist Salvation Evaluation Committee has determined that they are going straight to Hell. Truly, being self-righteous has never been so easy. Glory!

The differant cards they have are....
GAL PAL JESUS
INDIAN GIVER JESUS
COMPETITIVE JESUS
STONER HELPER JESUS
EMOTIONAL JESUS
SPLIT PERSONALITY JESUS
HELPLESS JESUS

These are like Hallmark cards you can e-mail to your favorite hated FAKE Christian who keeps butting into your life......

[Judi Lynn]

52. Wonderful site! Had to send the link to someone else already.

It has some posters everyone might love!



So cool! Thanks a lot.

http://www.cafepress.com/bettybowers/319113

[Ilsa]

29. Why don't they simply formalize permission to rape at will?

I mean, that's how they feel about U.S. women being there and in combat zones, right? That they are there to "service" the men?

[geek tragedy]

34. Awww, poor misogynists.

Can't buy women. :nopity:

The misogyny and immaturity in this thread is appalling.

[Skittles]

90. you said it, geek tragedy

very disconcerting on a Democratic board

[jcappy]

37. Arrest Johns!

About 80% or prostitutes are victims of sex abuse in youth--most of the others and most of these are from poor families.

Prostitution=slavery. Is there any real difference between rape and prostitution. Are a few bills what one pays for not going to jail.

prostitutes are in a worse position than soldiers--but there are many similarities

legalizing prostitution makes the State=Pimps when the state should obviously be arresting pimps--and all johns instead of prostitutes.

i applaud the military's decision.

[Amigust]

51. Prostitution does not = slavery

anymore than taking ANY job you can't stand = slavery.

Prostitution does NOT = rape whenever there is mutual consent.

This country is so fu__ed up over anything having to do with sex.

Gross overgeneralizations do nothing for getting reaching fair-minded conclusions.

Nor does trying to force one's own religions fantasies into the lives of others.

With nearly 750 US military bases around the world, a single, arbitary blanket prohibition is assinine. There are better solutions to the problem of FORCED prostitution.

[Seabiscuit]

77. You know what?

I can't even believe you had to post this, it's so damned obvious to anyone with a brain.

You're right - this country is so Cheney'd up over anythign having to do with sex, etc., etc.

It's a sad day when so many posters on DU are so fucked in the head that posts like yours are necessary to put things in perspective.

Or is this thread just getting freeped????

[Eloriel]

96. You two are confusing licentiousness with

non-repressed sex. There IS a difference.

I see no value in degrading sex, OR in trying to make everything sexual "Okay" and acceptable in the name of freedom from sexual repression. Not all sex and sexual practices are equal, and not all are healthy. Some are very UNhealthy, and some are very, very damaging to the parties concerned.

When you equate objecting to degraded sex to prudishness, sexual represion or being "fucked up over anything to do with sex," you are supporting degraded and degrading sex equally with healthy sex.

I'm ALL FOR healthy sex -- which I define as consensual sex between two adults, both of whom have respect for (as a human and an individual) and at least affection for one agree to participate. (Hint: someone whose economic survival depends on their sexual participation isn't equally empowered.) Without these conditions, one or both parties are USING the other, which is by definition degrading, dehumanizing, and ultimately soul-destroying for BOTH the user and the used.

So, from my persepctive, it's YOUR view of sex that is fucked up, no matter how prevalent it happens to be in our culture.

[Squeegee]

43. I guess the troops will just have to have sex with each other

... just don't ask or tell. ;-)

[Roy Robertson]

49. I feel sorry for my straight brothers, sometimes...

How do you guys stand it? The namecalling and thinly veiled hostility and cheap shots against men in this thread are appalling. I can just shake my head and walk away. What the hell do you do?

[joefree1]

62. Thanks gay brother

The neo-Victorians would give the modern day young man three choices while on overseas duty:

1. Whack off.

2. Mental, medicinal, or literal castration.

3. Channel thy sexual energy into slaying the enemies of God (or the nearest approximation).

No offense but it would be a hell of lot easier to be gay when serving in this modern army. But harmones got me out of a fundamentalist cult at thirteen and it get us hetros through this. Just don't plan a lot of young bucks signing onto the new military.

[Nikia]

46. Well, I assume that they couldn't use drugs where they are legal

If the military has a certain code of conduct, then military members have to obey it regardless of whether the activity is legal in the country they are in or not. I am not necessarily saying that using drugs or prostitutes should be illegal. They are illegal in the United States and the military has decided that this activity is inappropriate for members of the military. Members of the military know that they give up some of their freedom when they go into it.
By the way, I read an interesting article about Swedish policy towards prostitution. It is illegal to patronize a prostitute or pimp but not illegal to be a prostitute. As a result, prostitution has dropped and prostitutes suffer less abuse and crimes against them.

[geek tragedy]

53. Sweden has the right approach.

The evil (and I use that word intentionally) lies in demand, not in supply.

Cut down on the demand by making men behave like better men, and the demand goes down.

[jdj]

60. I'd like to hear more about Sweden...

Cut down on the demand by making men behave like better men

what does this mean?

the emphasis on "make" makes me nervous

[geek tragedy]

105. The key is really education--to teach boys that

renting a woman's vagina is simply not ok and degrades women on a society-wide basis.

[RivetJoint]

109. Agreed

It's better to buy them dinner and drinks first.

[Seabiscuit]

78. Wishful thinking...

Boys will be boys and the "oldest profession" will outlast all professions, like it or not. Fact of life, son. Neither the States, nor the U.S. Government, nor the Military will ever stop any of it. They can "criminalize" it all they want, but it perserveres, as always, over the centuries of humanity.

Fuck this right-wing conspiracy to screw our soldiers in Germany where they have enjoyed their freedom to indulge in legal activity there for decades. This is just Rove/Wolfowitz/Rummy/ChenEy think-tank crapola fed thru the Military. You like that shit?

I say FUCK 'EM ALL!!! VOTE THEM ALL OUT OF OFFICE NOV. 2!!!!

[Eloriel]

97. It's only a fact of life as long as there are those who, like you,

shrug off and justify sexism, misogyny and the exploitation of women with that tired old "Boys will be boys" canard. I say it's high time for "boys" to be men and take responsibility for their actions (and their hormones too, if that's what it takes).

[RivetJoint]

102. It's legal

to smoke pot in Amsterdam, but they can't do that either.

[geek tragedy]

104. Actually, it was anti-trafficking feminists who pushed for this.

But, don't let that get in the way of your apologism and "boys will be boys" propaganda and bullshit.

The military will reduce the use of prostitutes by soldiers by banning it. Will it still happen? Yes. But with much less frequently.

[Amigust]

48. More perks tossed to the Fundies to vote for Asshole

eom

[NVMojo]

61. wait a minute, once a soldier is off the military Rez ...

they uphold the law of that land. It is legal in Nevada to go to licensed whore houses, expect if you are a military man stationed at Nellis AFB, Fallon NAS or any other military assignment in Nevada? What is up with that? No different than troops stationed in Germany when I was in high school there in the 70s. If they were off duty, in civilian clothing, on their own town, they could pick up a dish on the Twenty-Mark Strasse. It was their time and their health.

We are invading everyone's hearts and brains in this country, along with their wallets, aren't we?

[JSJ]

65. stop-loss, illegal war, no armor, hatred from the occupied citizenry...

...none of which elicits a public peep out of the ethically-challenged troops, but, take away their access to paid sex and all hell breaks loose.

[secular_warrior]

84. As usual topics like these break along gender lines

Just proves how differently men and women experience reality, which is due mainly to biological differences - not environment/cultural reasons as believed a generation ago. Evolutionary psychology explains so much more than we could've ever understood by simple observation. Men and women evolved different strategies for mating because (as another person noted above) life is a game to produce as much DNA (offspring) as possible. Men have a lot of sperm, women very few eggs, therefore a lot of sex with many partners will yield a better DNA payoff for men (impregnate many women and not have to take care of the children), but committed sexual partners will yield a better DNA payoff for women (men willing to father and protect the woman's offspring).

Women think prostitution is disgusting because they don't see why a man would want to have sex with a stranger without regard for the individual's personality. They don't understand why men can't just 'control their urges' because they are viewing male sexual behavior through the prism of a female psychology. For men, sex is like going to the bathroom or eating; it is a daily urge which needs tending to - an urge which cannot be easily repressed. Casual sex is very primal and physical for men -- the woman's body is a pleasure to be consumed. For men, the woman's personality is extraneous to the process - marginal at best and as unneccessary as if an ice cream sundae had a personality.

Men can't understand why women think it is disgusting because they are trying to view female sexual behavior through male psychology. Women are far less concerned with physical appearances (than men are) and much more concerned with the status of the male. Women are strongly attracted to high status males because they can protect and provide for her and the offspring much better than a low status male would. Women are attracted to committment and loyalty -- a better father will stick around to raise the young thus ensuring survival of the woman's DNA.

Of course we live in a modern world where our evolutionary psychology is severely outdated, but it doesn't change biological impulses, and only increases the tension between the sexes, but we usually find a way to meet in the middle. Women engage in and enjoy casual sex when they are younger (while looking forward to committed relationships), males engage in and enjoy comitted relationships when slightly older (after 'sewing their wild oats').

[Stuckinthebush]

92. Nice analysis....

I like it...thanks.

If we can step back and look at ourselves as products of not only our socialization but also our evolutionary history, then we might understand ourselves a bit better.

Great job.

[jcappy]

111. PROOVE IT?

Your reasoning is pretty silly from the get-go. When you say that arguments here, as usual, break down "upon gender lines," I ask you how do you know this with any certainty.

At least two of the anti-prostitution voices are male--mine one of them.

However, this bit of of analysis is far truer than the rest of your pseudo science blather--which is the same kind of crap which upholds racism (racism is modeled upon sexism). The thing is that men get supplied with whole pocketfulss of rationales for their sexist behavior (the tabloids and academic world equal suppliers) and you pull out a few of them.

[Stuckinthebush]

112. Disagree

I don't think that this analysis is akin to racist eugenics at all. I am both a feminist and a male. I understand the urges that men have and can easily associate that with evolution. Jeez, we are animals after all, aren't we? What makes us think that we can opt out of the biologically based drives that other animals are subjected to?

[lil-petunia]

86. The euro-pacific stars and stripes has some nasty letters

especially from germany, where prostitution is legal.

[noonwitch]

94. I'll bet military wives like this policy

This is not just a matter of "decency" or even the exploitation of women. It is also about the health of our troops. Prostitution is one way that VD spreads. If my husband were stationed overseas and brought me home a present of the clap, I'd be pissed.

[RivetJoint]

101. Many years ago, when US forces were stationed in the Philippines

A solider had a better chance of catching VD from another solider's wife than he did from a bar girl.

[Mizmoon]

98. Has anyone here ever seen Amsterdam's Red Light District

Yes, the prostitution is legal.
Yes, the women are "protected" and get health checks.

But I dare you to look into their eyes and say that they seem happy and free. I saw them myself - they looked like prisoners - the saddness in their faces was unbearable.

I don't know how any male could even get it up under those circumstances. Plenty do, apparently.

[Zerex71]

103. Did I see something about a little bit of pushy? :)

Just a Freudian chuckle for your day...

Mike

[Moderator]

113. locking

This discussion is no longer productive.