Gays explain why they voted for Bush's re-election

[Charlie Brown]

http://www.sovo.com/2004/11-12/news/national/explain.cfm

Winn makes clear that he disagrees with the president on some issues, such as a constitutional ban on gay marriage and stem cell research.

“But I feel the issue of national security is more important than the issue of gay marriage and the other issues I don’t agree with him on,” he said.

[goforit]

1. Ignorance IS Bliss!!!

[99Pancakes]

110. The states most affected by 9/11

voted AGAINST Bush. That says a lot. What are the gays in the middle of the f--- country worried about? God save you from yourselves, I suppose!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

2. SO important that the terror level is now reduced and DC checkpoints gone

tell me what P.T. Barnum said again?

[grumpy old fart]

4. Weren't we just at Code Red in Ohio

according to election officials, wasn't that lockdown county at a level 10? Funny how it all changed on Nov. 3rd.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

14. good point

they have no concern how transparent it all is.

[0007]

21. ....somethin' about suckers. My daddy sez if your gonna be a sucker

be a quite one.

[donheld]

129. a quite one?

:shrug:

[0007]

154. A quiet one indeed.

Yes english master!

[xultar]

3. umm hummmm some Gays and some Black Folk are STOOPID! n/t

[petepillow]

13. Whites and latinos too!

we have equal-opportunity stupidity here! this is america!

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Not Me]

28. No, God Damn It !! A gay man voting for bush** is Stupid.

I could make all the arguments that Kerry could keep the country as safe, or safer than bush** has, but when a fellow gay man is willing to take a pass on his-- AND MY civil rights, I believe him to be stupid indeed.

You are welcome to your own opinion.

[Sideways]

29. Yeah...Right...Sure....Uh Huh....Word.....NOT

:silly: :eyes: :silly:

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Javaman]

33. Republicans aren't evil persay...

it's the ultra right wing religious holier then thou nut jobs that are inherently evil. They just also happen to be republicans. Doesn't really help the repuke image, does it?

[chelaque liberal]

200. The Republican Party as we knew it does not exist anymore.

It was the victim of hostile takeover by the Neocons and religious fundementalists.

[Sideways]

43. Way To Frame My Argument Dude

Did I say Republicans are evil? Did I say anyone anywhere was stupid?
Did I make the childish "us v them" argument in my post?

I did NOT. So please take your sanctimonious reply and shove it thank you very much.

My thread was based on the premise that you are indeed a gay man living in AZ going to Grad School. I was questioning the veracity of YOU and what you posted about yourself. Got it? It didn't pass my smell test and your petulant response confirms my feelings.

Don't you have an exam or something to study for? Oh wait....:eyes:

[Ripley]

45. lol

:toast:

[kori]

46. Please read become informed.

Try Richard Clarke's "against all enemies", Paul O'Neils book the Price of loyalty. Then maybe graduate to Sy Hersh's book Chain of Command and John Deans book Worse than Watergate. Listen to someone that knew Iraq better than any American, Scott Ritter. Then maybe read Imperial Hubris, although I disagree with his conclusions on how we solve the problem, it is a great look into the Mind of Osama Bin Landen and how foolish this administration is.

After you finish your political graduate work then come back and tell us again how childish the us vs them is. It really is US and THEM oh and the foolish and gullible who did little research.

[othermeans]

97. I agree with you 100% I read all the books you mentioned and any

idiot who says it is not us v. them is living in a fool's paradise. I am so tired of all the crap about accomadation. What has it gotten us? Nothing. Democrats better get a spine or be permanently relegated to the status of a third party.

I think it is fair to say that we must try to find some common ground with the people who voted for Bush and who are actually being damaged by the Republican policies.

[Bullshot]

163. There lies the problem. This information requires reading.

Repukes would rather have some pompous gasbag on the radio do their thinking for them. Reason number one: many cannot read. Reason number two: the rest of them are too damned lazy to read and think for their own.

[calimary]

48. Please remember, friend, that this is not as one-sided as you portray it.

Another mom informed me that while driving her kids home LAST NIGHT that they spotted just the loveliest bumper sticker - "Liberals - French for Cowards" driving around in the neighborhood. Just really cute. Especially when they were driving home from our neighborhood karate school where there's a French family who attends - and is quite prominent and popular at the school. Hopefully you'll send the same scolding to your republi-CON friends and not just push all the condemning and blaming onto us.

Also consider the following, please. Respectfully submitted:

http://www.democrats.us/editorial/lyon111004.shtml

[Protagoras]

197. Make her a Bumperstick that says

Republican - American for Fearful and Ignorant-

[Bridget Burke]

50. Bush did nothing to prevent 9/11; he ignored real warnings.

A recent thread here quoted Bob Kerrey's interview by Paula Zahn. He was on the 9/11 commission; they released a report summarized by the media as meaning that nobody could have connected the dots to prevent the attack. Some intelligence reforms were suggested but nobody was to blame.

Guess what? All commission members swore an oath to keep their mouths shut until after the election. Now, Kerrey is free to say: The 9/11 report in chapter eight says that, in the summer of 2001, the government ignored repeated warnings by the CIA, ignored, and didn't do anything to harden our border security, didn't do anything to harden airport country, didn't do anything to engage local law enforcement, didn't do anything to round up INS and consular offices and say we have to shut this down, and didn't warn the American people.

Read more here: http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1009

All these facts were in the report & many were already known. But the media made no conclusions & the commission members were gagged to enable your president's election as "Strong on Terror."

Anybody who voted for Bush believing he could protect them is a bit lacking in mental powers. And I believe Democrats need to speak up more, rather than less.

[skypilot]

55. One thing you seem to be missing...

...is that many of those Republicans with a "different opinion" want to turn those "opinions" into LAW. If they were to succeed, the law itself would create a de facto "us versus them".

[donheld]

133. Not only "us versus them".

Some would very much like to make our existance as gay beings illegal. That's not a different opinion it's a matter of life and death.

[skypilot]

143. Exactly.

Some of this "we've got to respect other people's opinions" stuff has gone a bit overboard since the election. If someone hates me and wants to see me locked up or killed, I can't bring myself to respect that. I'm not even sure how to go about respecting it.

[Chimpanzee]

56. People se things differently possibly because they are not

analyzing the same data. I looked at the facts, most republicans looked at the propaganda. I wouldn't call that stupid - just ignorant and lazy.

[ronnykmarshall]

62. Oh please!

Gay for Bush is the same as Jew for Hitler. Period.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

96. :::: wild applause :::::::::::::

Thank you.

Some things really are that simple.

[BiggJawn]

73. Go Away, Joe Liebermann...

Take your message of "we gotta stop hatin' 'em to get 'em to vote with us" elsewhere.

[Pachamama]

93. If your "almost ashamed to admit your a Democrat", then maybe this isn't

the right place for you...besides, if you clearly read the post, where do they state Republicans are evil?

I don't know what kind of "Grad Student" you are, but you might want to familiarize yourself with the concept of "revolutionary power" as described by Henry Kissinger in some of his writings while at Harvard, because it is a direct reflection of what is happening right now within the current GOP party and the majority of supporters of Bush and the GOP are completely clueless as to this "takeover"...

I'd say that a better analysis would be that many of the Republicans with blind loyal faith to the GOP are "not evil" but rather are "ignorant"....it's very sad...they cannot see the truth...

[Demeter]

103. Sorry, But if the Democrats Won, The GOP Would Be Calling IT Criminal

and an abomination against God and perhaps even unAmerican---what they wouldn't call it is STUPID, because it wouldn't be. Voting Democrat is the quickest IQ Test I know....

[Hello_Kitty]

104. If you think we have a disrespectful attitude toward Republicans

You oughtta see what some of them say about us. There are conservative sites where posters call for the outright killing of liberals. Let's not even get into what they say about gays.

[gpandas]

107. tell it like it is n/t

[TankLV]

123. You're a Democrat - SURE you are!

I think we have another one folks!

[mitchtv]

178. spelling and grammar

a dead giveaway

[Amigust]

130. Just what fodder are you referring to that they do not display to an

even greater extent?

AZ, it IS an "us versus them" time we're in. The Republican Party has been agressively waging very real political war against the Democratic Party for many years. The Art of Political War is their bible. Seems like it should be our bible too. They have left no room for "we together" unless it is we Democrats who concede to them. Your idealistic expectations and point of view are in total disconnect from the way things actually are. Keep participating and studying the realities of current politics, if you can stand to.


It is events like this that give the Republicans so much fodder against us. You disagree with President Bush? Fine. I do too, on many issues. However, the childish "us versus them" attitude does more to hurt the Democratic party than help it.

[donheld]

132. AZGradStudent

What has Bush down to impress you so? Right now the way i see it too many republican's are the essense of evil Bush included.

[truth2power]

152. Anyone who voted for Bush

is terminally stupid. Gay...straight...whatever.

Knowing what we know about him; seeing what we have seen, there's just no excuse.

This isn't about whether or not to construct a bike trail in your community. It's about our children's and our grandchildren's future.

[jbm]

158. take their conclusions backwards..

until you arrive at the root assumption that would point them down that road in the first place. I promise you the underlying assumption will either be based on misinformation or some 'because God made me better" theory.

I resisted concluding that the repubs were either mean or ignorant for years, and spent countless hours engaging them in discussions in a hope to understand the source of their point of view. I am 100% confident that I now understand the source of their point of view....and I firmly believe that their point of view is based on a belief system that is flawed at it's origin.

Welcome to DU! :toast:

[PhuLoi]

160. Stupid, as an epithet, does lack sophistication.

Depressingly unintelligent, vapid, fatuous, inbecile, moronic, self-destructive, intellectually moribund, mercifully free of the strain of intellect, uneducated, unenlightened, traitor to the Constitution, sociopath and barking mad could describe with greater accuracy anyone, regardless of race, sex or sexual orientation, who voted for Bush. Tolerance, while a virtue for the powerful, gives the tolerant poor the longevity of a glass hammer.

[JPace]

34. 2 posts and you seem to have already become "offended" on DU

makes me wonder if this is the place for you.

[prolesunited]

35. Funny how that happens

A lot of people seem feel compelled to sign on to say they are offended and people like us make them ashamed to be a Democrat. Doesn't seem like they're all that strong in their personal convictions, does it?

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

52. Yes, you'd get along quite well with Zell Miller & Dick Morris.

Just stay in the closet while you're around them.

[Divine Discontent]

162. Oh gosh!!!!!!

Boy did you tell it AZ gay grad boy! HE HAS TO WAKE UP! PLEASE GRAD BOY, they HATE you and your feelings, don't you get it? The few things you may think Bush is doing good (what I have no idea, economy? war? social security? environment?) doesn't cover up the total blanketing of your PERSONAL RIGHTS as a gay man, they want you to go in the closet and die, wake up!

God bless you, stick around, just don't jump to conclusions like you did on the 2nd post.

[Tight_rope]

171. LOL...5^ to that statement. Mill, Morris & Bsuh* will "NEVER" accept him!

[prolesunited]

53. OK

Tell Zell and Dick us psuedo-intellectual radicals we said hi. :hi:

P.S. Maybe you would get a more favorable response if you didn't start lecturing and insulting the posters here with your first three forays into the forum. Do you normally walk up to a crowd of strangers with such hostility?

And, BTW, people get banned for being conservatives, not assholes, so I think you're safe.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue-Jay]

57. You give yourself too much credit.

Go ahead and leave. The most that people will say about you in a half hour is "Who?"

[ronnykmarshall]

65. Wait a minute ...

Your first post you stated that "WE" are not stupid. Which was in reference to gays that voted for Bush.

Now you're singing the song as if you are a democrat and voted for Kerry.

Which one is it?

Talk about a flip flopper.

[Susang]

111. Smells funny, don't it?

I'm always amused when people get angry and quit after only 4 rather inflammatory and provacative posts, then claim the reason they're leaving is that they aren't getting the thoughtful and intelligent discussion they were looking for. :eyes:

[TankLV]

126. There's that pesky "us" and "we" again!

We don't believe for a split second you are either one.

[Charlie Brown]

60. Well spoken, my friend

I too am tired of the "us vs. them" mentality of both parties. I posted this story because I felt it was something that needed to be heard here. The "activist" wing of the Democrats should be aware that many homosexuals have lives beyond their orientation and vote on any number of issues besides marriage or gay rights. The people interviewed make a good point, particularly the one who was offended that Kerry did not support gay marriage and that it's become a "hot button" issue that some of the lawyers have capitalized on. I hope understanding ideas like this will help Dems appreciate gays more and learn to treat them as more than just excess votes.

[bobbyboucher]

78. That is just plain confusing.

Those nuts vote for people that would just as soon see them dead is somehow the Democratic Pary's fault? You are beyond repair. And you are also insinuating that their vote for security reasons has merit. FYI, no president has been worse on security than George Bush, and if you don't know that, you are broken down.

Some of you folks are obviously believing the Republican bullshit. Sad.

[Charlie Brown]

83. Their vote has merit to them

59 million people "believed the Republican bullshit" and if you simply write that figure off, the Democrat party is truly dead. You need to find out how to communicate your case to people like those in this article, and explain to them how it's in their best interest to vote Dem. That is apparently what lost us the election.

[atreides1]

102. 59 Million People are Ignorant

They don't care, why is it that people like you just don't seem to understand that. They don't want gays to have the same rights as other Americans, they want to deny women the right to choose, and they believe that an embryo is a human being.

The only way that they'll even listen is if we agree with them on those topics.

By the way the vote for Hitler had merit for the people that voted for him too.

[Midlodemocrat]

116. and stupid.

They don't read anything that doesn't appear in USA today or their local paper and they watch Fox. I am a committed liberal, but frankly, I read everything political I can get my hands on, short of that crap in Freeperville, or conservative underground. They are just so hate based and so judgmental, I don't see how a gay man or a straight man, or a gay/straight woman could think that they are actually advancing the country. I just can't understand why any so-called intelligent person would vote Repug.

[Tight_rope]

172. 59 million people drank too much Bush* kool-aid!

[Cheswick2.0]

222. lol.......no really, LOL

70 percent of people once believed that Saddam had something to do with 9-11. It is not surprising that half of americans are morons. The problem is not that the democrats don't talk to these people in a way they can identify with. The problem is that the media is garbage and people never get to hear the truth.

[donheld]

135. You blockhead

Nobody treats us "as more than just excess votes." I'm sorry but as a gay man nobody has yet pointed out one thing Bushie did to draw a gay vote.

[Charlie Brown]

167. One person quoted in this article believed they did

If these exit polls they quote are true then nearly a quarter of those who identified themselves as GLBT voted for Bush. That translates into nearly A MILLION votes. Either the Dems have to find a better way to promote themselves to GLBT voters or they'll just keep voting that way.

[donheld]

183. We will never appeal to everyone

like i said there are some gays who either are or would love to be members of PNAC. Yes even some gays have Imperialistic tendencies.

[Cheswick2.0]

223. yes, with 3/4 of gay people voting democrat we are in huge trouble

and obviously doing something terrible wrong.

[Cheswick2.0]

221. gay people who voted for bush are just as freaking stupid as straight

people who voted for bush.

Feel better now?

[kori]

61. Maybe you should join Zell and Dick, I will stick with these:

John Eisenhower:

Sen. Kerry, in whom I am willing to place my trust, has demonstrated that he is courageous, sober, competent, and concerned with fighting the dangers associated with the widening socio-economic gap in this country. I will vote for him enthusiastically.

I celebrate, along with other Americans, the diversity of opinion in this country. But let it be based on careful thought. I urge everyone, Republicans and Democrats alike, to avoid voting for a ticket merely because it carries the label of the party of one’s parents or of our own ingrained habits.

John Eisenhower, son of President Dwight D. Eisenhower, served on the White House staff between October 1958 and the end of the Eisenhower administration. From 1961 to 1964 he assisted his father in writing “The White House Years,” his Presidential memoirs. He served as American ambassador to Belgium between 1969 and 1971. He is the author of nine books, largely on military subjects

http://www.theunionleader.com/articles_showa.html?article=44657

Former Republican Gov. of Michigan William Milliken:

William Milliken endorsed Democratic Sen. John Kerry for president on Monday, saying President Bush has pursued policies "pandering to the extreme right wing."

Milliken, governor from 1969-82, accused the Bush administration of rushing into the Iraq war, pushing tax cuts that benefit the rich and blocking meaningful stem-cell research.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041018/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_gop_endorsement&cid=694&ncid=1963&sid=96378798

From California Republican Congressman Pete McCloskey

"Ending secrecy and bringing truth and honesty back to the White House are reasons enough to elect Kerry and Edwards."

http://inprogress.typepad.com/republicanswitchers/

Former Republican Senator From Kentucky Marlow W Cook

I shall cast my vote for John Kerry come Nov 2.

I have been, and will continue to be, a Republican. But when we as a party send the wrong person to the White House, then it is our responsibility to send him home if our nation suffers as a result of his actions. I fall in the category of good conservative thinkers, like George F. Will, for instance, who wrote: "This administration cannot be trusted to govern if it cannot be counted on to think and having thought, to have second thoughts."

http://www.courierjournal.com/cjextra/editorials/2004/10/20/oped-marlow1020-8060.html

Former Minnesota Governor Elmer L. Anderson

This imperialistic, stubborn adherence to wrongful policies and known untruths by the Cheney-Bush administration -- and that's the accurate order -- has simply become more than I can stand.

http://inprogress.typepad.com/republicanswitchers/

Former Republican Congressman from Georgia Bob Barr:

Throughout my own presidential voting history, the choices have rarely, if ever, been agonizing. Nixon vs. McGovern? Carter vs. Reagan? Reagan-Mondale? Dukakis, a Massachusetts liberal? Clinton? Al Gore? Ah, the good ol' days. Each of those races presented clear choices, easily resolved.

Now we have the election of 2004. For the first time in my voting life, the choice in the race for president isn't so clear And, among true conservatives, I'm not alone.

Bush's problem is that true conservatives remember their history. They recall that in recent years when the nation enjoyed the fruits of actual conservative fiscal and security policies, a Democrat occupied the White House and Congress was controlled by a Republican majority that actually fought for a substantive conservative agenda.

http://atlanta.creativeloafing.com/2004-10-07/news_flankingaction.html

Former White House Counsel John Dean

"Clearly, it is an impeachable offense," he says. "I think the case is overwhelming that these people presented false information to the Congress and to the American people."

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20030606.html

Staunch conservative Columnist Charley Reese

I will swallow a lot of petty policy differences...to get a man in the White House with brains enough not to blow up the world and us with it.

http://inprogress.typepad.com/republicanswitchers/

Andrew Sullivan conservative writer The New Republic Magazine:

Writers bear some responsibility too for making mistakes; and I take mine. But they bear a greater responsibility if they do not acknowledge them and learn. And it is simply foolish to ignore what we have found out this past year about Bush's obvious limits, his glaring failures, his fundamental weakness as a leader. I fear he is out of his depth and exhausted. I simply do not have confidence in him to navigate the waters ahead skillfully enough to avoid or survive the darkening clouds on the horizon.

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=qFFINfAm4eR7PMnY1tkQ2m%3D%3D



Cousins of George W Bush:

As the election approaches, we feel it is our responsibility to speak out about why we are voting for John Kerry, and to do our small part to help America heal from the sickness it has suffered since George Bush was appointed President in 2000. We invite you to read our stories, and please, don't vote for our cousin!

http://www.bushrelativesforkerry.com/pages/1/index.htm

There are many more prominent Republicans switching. I can not remember this level of defection of known party supporters, not even with the Reagan Democrats.

For more information check out these sites:

http://conservativesforkerry.com/conspeakout.html

http://inprogress.typepad.com/republicanswitchers/

http://www.errolmorris.com/html/election04/election04_main.html

http://www.republicansforkerry.org/

http://www.republicansforkerry04.org/

http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/republicans/

[Charlie Brown]

74. And all of these people are probably against

gay marriage. As far as homosexuals are concerned, what do they get out of alligning themselves with this crowd that they might not also get with Zell, etc? How does opposing the WOT or outsourcing advance the cause of gay rights?

[kori]

77. You may be right

All of those may well be against gay marriage. Many in the Democratic party are against gay marriage, but would support gay unions with equal rights. I was pointing out those conservatives that felt as strongly as many of us here that George had to go. That was the issue and is the issue.

I saw an interview with the Republican Senate Candidate from South Carolina. He not only felt gays should not be married they should not be allowed to teach in public schools. You would not find that statement in a Democrat. I sure hope all the gays that supported Bush or were weak on their support for Kerry are not teachers. They maybe removed from their job.

[mitchtv]

180. Greedy white men and women(gay)

there's your gay * voter

[skypilot]

63. Wow.

You referred to us as radical three times in that post. If you think that this site is that radical then you definitely are in the wrong place.

[donheld]

136. Nothing Radical about Bushie now is there

:eyes: I only hope there's some radical on the left to match it.

[bobbyboucher]

76. You're wrong. Again.

The Democratic Party's image is not the problem. It's people like you that buy into lies that are told about the party. What you are so ridiculously suggest is that we become more like the Repugnicants because fools beleive what they say. You are beaten, not us, YOU.

You are the one that is believing their bullshit. Now either you are a Republican who has irritatingly decided to come here and try to get under our skin and change our beliefs, or you are the EXACT problem with the Democratic Party, the type of Democrat that is buying into the media spin and the Republican's lies about the core beliefs and basic tenets of the Democratic Party because we might lose some elections to idiots. YES IDIOTS.

Now take your appeasement and cowardice and defeatism and shove it up your ass.

[mitchum]

101. Go away then!

[TankLV]

125. Bye and good riddance - don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way

out!

Enjoy the worms!

[girl gone mad]

128. Your strongest personal convicition is that the Democratic party..

needs an image makeover?

That's a bold statement, considering that the fervent base of the Republican party thinks that gay couples shouldn't even be seen together in public.


...A Virginia pro-family advocate says the people who helped re-elect President Bush don't support homosexual relationships -- the administration apparently does. Joe Glover, president of the Family Policy Network, has worked tirelessly for family values, including the fight against legalized homosexual "marriage." He says it was conservative Christians who put the president back in office and who held to the belief that the president shared their views. But Glover says the day after the election, that all seemed to go out the window. "The day after George Bush was elected president again, because of this morals revolution taking place in our country, he allows his vice president to not only put his lesbian daughter on the platform, but to bring her lesbian 'partner' up on the stage with him," Glover says. "It almost seems to be a slap in the face from the get-go against the very conservatives that re-elected the president at a time when he ought to paying them some homage and respect." Glover says the Cheney daughter's open flaunting of her homosexuality is the antithesis of what the administration claims to stand for -- and that the post-election display sends a mixed message to Bush supporters

[recon54]

82. The bottom line is not stupid...

...it's uninformed.

In broad terms, I feel that women or gays/lesbians who voted for W aren't necessarily unintelligent, they're simply not aware of the admin's open hostility to both of those demographics' rights, both in terms of past policy, and certainly in terms of policy shaping.

And I'd like to add that this isn't a Repub thing, it's a neocon thing -- because neocons are in bed with the Christian Right, and those folks see this pre-neanderthallic patriarchal society as a utopia. Repubs don't necessarily share those values (and neither do Neocons), but the latter are happy to be subservient to the CR for the 100000s of votes they get from the CR.

[Politicub]

37. Not only are they stupid, but selfish

I do hold it against "my gay counterparts" that they did vote for Bush. Plus, I don't buy the security argument. I think its a fig leaf for greed and bigotry. Gays, blacks, latinos, whites, the disabled, poor, senior citizen, anyone can be a greedy bigot and vote against their own community's interests.

[dkofos]

41. When they come for you I will look the other way

[Liberal Veteran]

64. This gay man says ANY gay person who even considered voted Bush....

...is stupid beyond comprehension.

The fact is you are more likely to be gaybashed or die in an auto accident than a terrorist attack.

Anyone who place an overblown fear of terrorism ahead of their own civil rights is a moron. Period.

[TahitiNut]

79. Why so ANTI-ANALYTICAL?

Any time I hear someone running back to the refuge of "different opinion," I wonder why the question of "why" is being avoided. I tend to respect the analytical ... I tend to believe an examination of the reasoning is valuable.

[TankLV]

131. Also - we are sick and tire of presenting repuke LIES and Democratic

TRUTH as just "differences of opinion".

They are most certainly not equivalent, and it is insulting for someone to claim otherwise.

That is a major problem with the whore media - the equivocating of the LIES with the FACTS.

[bvar22]

90. And chickens who vote for..

...Col. Sanders are entitled to their opinions too, no matter how STOOPID!

[keopeli]

94. Hey, AZGrad, you obviously have gay friends who voted for Bush*

So do I. I'm gay too. Here's a news flash.

You can be right, even after a stupid rigged election. Just because Bush* won the thing doesn't mean you're wrong and they're right.

In fact, gays who vote for Bush* are like Jews who supported Hitler...and there WERE jews who supported Hitler. They were blinded by propoganda, just like your friends.

So, pity your friends and hold on to your sanity.

Oh yeah, and leave Arizona before you really start getting into trouble.

God bless.

Citizen At large

PS - Im a gay man from Texas.

[tavalon]

185. There were Jews that supported Hitler!?

[othermeans]

95. I would say that if you had a hard time deciding between Bush and

Kerry you might be at wrong political discussion board.

[mitchum]

100. Will no man rid me of this bothersome freep?

Mods? Anyone?

[Skittles]

108. sorry, there is no way an informed person could vote for Bush

if people knew the real truth behind Bush Inc they would riot in the street with pitchforks

[freestyle]

113. If not stupid, then insane, delusional, and brainwashed.

This gay man can't find any reason, not one, to vote for someone who actively worked to deny me full citizenship. The republican party is committed to protecting bunches of barely formed cells that could become human beings while cutting human beings who happen to be GLBT out of citizenship.

The Nazis started with gays also. No clear thinking GLBT person could support Bush. Someone else wrote that we are far more likely to be bashed than hurt by foreign terrorists. With republicans in power, the bashers are also more likely to get away with it. The hard core fundamentalists really believe that we should convert or die. In their little minds, they are not terribly bothered if the wages of our "sin" is death. At some level, gays who vote republican are suicidal. Now that's hate.

[Amigust]

119. You're probably still young, maybe you'll be lucky enough to

learn more from watching this country move further and further from its former democratic ideals. If you're an honest, open inquirer, you may. Sad to realize what it takes to get the lessons across to those who for whatever reason just don't get it - global warming catastrophes, choking in our own polution, major extinctions, fascism, world wars. Lots of luck. We're all going to need it.

Those who trade away their freedom for a little security deserve neither. --Benjamin Franklin

[prayin4rain]

120. It is not a difference of opinion, it is a denial of facts.

The reason they are being called stupid is because if any of them spent anytime researching Dubya and his war on terror it would be obvious that he does not make us safer. Attacking a country that is no threat to us and securing the capture of Saddam, who had NOTHING to do with 9-11, is ridiculous. Meanwhile, Osama is free to make public service announcements. And Bush Sr. can make millions on all the defense contracts for this "shock and awe" campaign. Stupid may not be entirely accurate, but it is frustrating when people vote out of fear. This is the basis of fascism. Dubya cannot murder 100,000 innocent Iraqis, not be to concerned about Osama (check it out he said it), make his daddy and friends rich with tax payers dollars, amend the constitution to actually TAKE AWAY rights, and on and on and on, alone. 59 million cowards are right there cheering on their fascist leader, who is taking away their rights and stealing their money but they are SCARED so they don't care. It is pathetic. Stupid actually is a nice way to describe them. Cowardly fascist following murderers would be more accurate.

[Cheswick2.0]

224. wonderful post and you are absolutely right

this is how Germany got into trouble. They learned their lesson, will we?

[TankLV]

122. I'll stick with stupid - and add greedy and selfish.

and conceted.

[mitchum]

144. And I second that!

[donheld]

127. This gay man agrees "A gay man voting for bush** is Stupid"

Sorry AZ but i have a real big problem with any gay or lesbian person. What Issue has Bush dealt with that would merit a vote from any of us?

[mitchtv]

177. oh Please!

gays who vote repub are not stupid, they are Idiots. Your spelling and and grammar need improvement-grad student.

[skypilot]

5. Yeah, I'm sure that ...

...if this guy is ever confronted by some gay-bashing homophobes, Bush and Tom Ridge will be right there for him.

[Straight Shooter]

6. Headline: "Winn arrested as enemy combatant

for corrupting the morals of our children, which is dangerous to our sense of national security."

Winn, the poster child of the chicken voting for Colonel Sanders.

[alittlelark]

7. 'The Southern Voice' sounds like a propaganda rag

I'll bet they spent awhile finding those ubiquitous gay and black b*sh voters:crazy:

[Charlie Brown]

9. They're a gay newsletter

sadly, I think these unknowing saps are legit.

[alittlelark]

30. I'm curious about who started/funds it

[Politicub]

40. It's the main gay rag for the southeast

Even as flawed as it is. It took the stance that Kerry isn't good enough on gay rights. I stopped reading it when every week's editorial was about how Kerry isn't good enough. People are crazy if they thing Bush and Kerry are equivalent. This country would have been so much better off with Kerry. He isn't perfect, but neither is any other human being on the face of the earth.

[kori]

91. Send this to that rag

Show them what they just supported. Do they really think a country with legislation of a "biblical norm" will advance their rights:

"You Owe The Liberals Nothing"

November 3, 2004

President George W. Bush
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500

Dear Mr. President:

The media tells us that you have received the largest number of popular votes of any president in America's history. Congratulations!

In your re-election, God has graciously granted America—though she doesn't deserve it—a reprieve from the agenda of paganism. You have been given a mandate. We the people expect your voice to be like the clear and certain sound of a trumpet. Because you seek the Lord daily, we who know the Lord will follow that kind of voice eagerly.

Don't equivocate. Put your agenda on the front burner and let it boil. You owe the liberals nothing. They despise you because they despise your Christ. Honor the Lord, and He will honor you.

Had your opponent won, I would have still given thanks, because the Bible says I must (I Thessalonians 5:18). It would have been hard, but because the Lord lifts up whom He will and pulls down whom He will, I would have done it. It is easy to rejoice today, because Christ has allowed you to be His servant in this nation for another presidential term. Undoubtedly, you will have opportunity to appoint many conservative judges and exercise forceful leadership with the Congress in passing legislation that is defined by biblical norm regarding the family, sexuality, sanctity of life, religious freedom, freedom of speech, and limited government. You have four years—a brief time only—to leave an imprint for righteousness upon this nation that brings with it the blessings of Almighty God.

Christ said, “If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my father honour” (John 12:26).

The student body, faculty, and staff at Bob Jones University commit ourselves to pray for you—that you would do right and honor the Savior. Pull out all the stops and make a difference. If you have weaklings around you who do not share your biblical values, shed yourself of them. Conservative Americans would love to see one president who doesn't care whether he is liked, but cares infinitely that he does right.

Best wishes.

Sincerely your friend,

Bob Jones III
President
http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2004_11_07_digbysblog_archive.html#110010604608660694

BOLDING ADDED BY ME

[hattrickinc]

8. this is good to see

im glad to see that they are strong supporters of a man who wants to take away their rights and most likely hates them...cause hes such a religious man

[Richard Steele]

10. And SOME Jews probably voted for Hitler, but they ain't talkin...

[RubyDuby in GA]

11. Did they go out of their way

to pick quite possibly the dumbest gay people in the country???

And the Southern Voice is not a propaganda rag. It is the premier gay news publication in the South, which has a very large gay population.

[ozymandius]

27. There is just NO helping some people.

This sounds like battered wife syndrome: "Don't take my man away 'cause I just love the taste of blood and blackened eyes as only my (good) man can give me." This really underlines that even the most marginalized people in society cannot help but descriminate against themselves.

[iamjoy]

84. Battered Wife - Close, But Not Exact

More like a battered wife saying she doesn't like the black eyes, etc but he provides such a beautiful (expensive) home, and she has a nice car & they go on a great trip every year, so it doesn't really matter that he hits her every now and then.

As for the gays who voted for Bush, I am beyond condemning them, I just shrug and say they will get no sympathy from me when the government starts taking away their rights of citizenship - marriage is just the beginning.

I already cry for the gays who voted for Kerry who stand to lose so much - possibly more than any other constituency of liberals.

[ozymandius]

86. I'll buy that.

Everything is appearances it seems.

[Neshanic]

12. This type of stupidity is spectacular.

[ramapo]

20. And widespread

Ed Koch is the poster boy for this attitude. He proudly stated how he disagress with everything Bush stands for except his ability to keep us safe. Like Bush did such a good job up to 9/10/01. People actually believed Kerry would've open the doors to terrorists. Un-f'ing real.

[Moloch]

15. What a fucking idiot

I'd hate to say it, but some of the most greedy and materialistic people I have ever met are gay. There's something about gay culture which stresses these things and it is really unfortunate that it is causeing some of us to vote against our own interests.

Strongly support the war on terror? Well guess what, Bush fucked up the war on terror badly. Instead of going after the person responsible for 9/11, he diverted our military to another country which posed no threat to us. We are no safer now than we were on 9/11, Bush did nothing but enact things that made people feel like he was doing something about it and keep the citizens in a constant state of fear, oh yeah and who could forget, take away some of our civil rights while he's at it.

[Politicub]

42. Many gay men are self absorbed

and only into themselves. I'm more of the stay at home and take care of my partner variety. Many people who make up atlanta's gay community are just into their car, hair style and newest clothing. Not that there's anything wrong with that, unless it translates into greed and apathy at the voting booth.

[okieinpain]

159. devil advocate here. remember those post about not selling out

this is why the party needs to look at taking this and some other ideas out of its platform. abortion, and affirmative action are the same as gay marriage.

notice I said gay marriage, not gay rights. it's hard for repugs to frame gay rights in a bad light. affirmative action has people just like this gay gentleman, women and blacks. blacks that don't vote because they figure both parties are the same, and women who benefit from aa, but are in denial about the help they receive.

and of course theirs everybodies favorite abortion. I do believe that it's 50/50 now between women on this subject.

[SideshowScott]

16. As a Chicken, I feel much safer with the Fox in the henhouse....

Thats what it sounds like to me...
I just dont get how people are being duped like this

[whalerider55]

89. there is an old arabic saying

better to have the enemy inside the tent pissing out than outside pissing in.

me, i try to point them to a urinal.

whalerider55

[Penguin31]

184. There is old saying...

A gay person voting for Bush is like a chicken walking into a KFC...

[ProfessorGAC]

17. Winn Is A Cowardly Weenie!

Another big brave american scared of the boogie man and wants Li'l Georgie to protect him.

What a wimp.
The Professor

[shrike]

47. America, the chickenshit

Goes to show that gay people can be every bit as ill-informed and ignorant as the rest of us.

I can't tell you how many people I've talked to who continue to believe, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that Bush is keeping us safe.

This is the same country that sent men to the moon and took on Hitler.

What happened to us?

[ProfessorGAC]

67. 58 Million Cowards

It's embarassing. They need their "leader" to protect them. Sickening.
The Professor

[Charlie Brown]

72. Why is it "sickening?"

They believed Bush offered a better message than Kerry. The voters may be naive or uninformed, but dismissing them as arbitrary is unwise. How 'bout focusing on the issues these 58 million are most concerned about, then maybe the team can actually WIN next time.

[cubsfan forever]

81. Oh, Charlie Brown....

"Please come here and kick this football. I have a note saying that I will never, ever again pull it away from you and make you fall backward and look like an idiot..."(to paraphrase Lucy van Pelt)

Methinks that's what Chicken George did to a lot of Americans, including gays. Well, that and the voting fraud, BBVs, et al.

Professor 2

[Charlie Brown]

85. Well, you've convinced me

now try telling the 59 million Americans who voted for the incumbant. That's the only way they'll start voting Dem.

[shrike]

106. Well, Charlie ...

A lot of Americans Don't Want To Hear It. That's what that cost us the election, IMO. Read John Dean's essay in the Editorials Forum; he explains it much better than I can.

Forty percent of Americans believe Saddam Hussein attacked the World Trade Center. Richard Clarke has told them otherwise. The 9-11 Commission has told them otherwise. Hell, I'VE told them otherwise ... and they Don't Want To Hear It. I deal with it everyday. A man I know, who is not religious and has two degrees, persists in believing that Saddam pulled the WTC attack. I quote him facts, figures, refer him to internet links and articles, and it does no good.

What is wrong with these people? I have no idea.

[TankLV]

161. OK - let's focus on the issues that mattered most to them:

Taking away a women's choice.

Taking away a gay person's rights and relegating us to less than a citizen.

Inserting their brand of intolerant religious hatred and bigotry into law and forcing everyone else to believe as they do.

Taxing the poor and letting the rich go scott free.

Greed

Hypocricy.

Lies.

No, I won't ever accomodate my beliefs to include these!

I WILL NEVER COMPROMISE ON THESE ISSUES!

[Charlie Brown]

170. Fine, now get the message out

These sound like ideas most people can relate with. If 59 million people keep voting for the current kind of people those principals of yours won't matter. Women WILL NOT have the right to choose. Gays WILL NOT HAVE equal protection. Religious intolerance will be shoved down our throats. The "swing voters" mentioned here are exactly the kind of people you should focus on reaching. Otherwise, you'll just have a platform and no elected officials.

[Rose Siding]

18. We can't even tell him to go enlist!

:grr:

[donheld]

138. Yes you can

I'm sure Bushie would love to make cannon fodder out of him.

[Lorien]

19. We're less secure with *. Proof:

a friend of mine who looks like he could be a member of Al Qaeda (long dark beard, dark eyes and complexion-though he's Jewish) took a large piece of equipment up to Canada on a Ryder truck. The Canadians went over the truck with a fine tooth comb. On the way back into the US, the US border guard asked "what's in the truck"? My friend said "Nothing-I'm empty". And the guard WAVED HIM THROUGH!

[JudyM]

149. This ought to be sent in to papers as an editorial.. It's so telling!

[Florida_Geek]

22. When bin Laden hit again

These ppl will be so secure ..

[xchrom]

23. ok that's the joke

what's the punch line.

[The Brethren]

24. Bush is a bigot no matter how much he tries to deny it.

This is my first posting to DU - hello to everyone. :) This is an awesome site.

I voted for Kerry and am also gay. I can't stand the little chimp! I don't buy his lies and I voted against him because of his blatant bigoted attitude towards gays, but also for just about every other issue that is important to me. I also believe this election was rigged - we can thank Mr. KKK Rove and Diebold for their contributions to our democracy. Speaking of Rove, he is slime, but he is clever in a twisted way - since the elections, he has publicly announced that part of his winning strategy was to bring up "gays" and "gay rights." He knew that appealing to the lowest in people in the form of fear, hatred, ignorance, etc that he can push buttons.

There are those who believe in his crap, but I also know that there are many straight people out there who don't and who have gay family members and friends who they care about and don't follow his fanatical, religious head games. Those people I appreciate very much. :)

[eddiebrowns]

32. Welcome to the DU!!

:toast:

[tsuki]

70. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[Pacifist Patriot]

140. Welcome!

[leesa]

26. It's truly appalling how uninformed these people are! Do they NEVER

read any news? How could you possibly not realize that our national security is at an all-time low because of the antics of the Bush Fool.

[Politicub]

36. These people are idiots

Bush makes us less secure. His policies are creating a planet that is against us.

[PretzelzRule]

38. Because they are myopic idiots

who are only concerned with their fat tax breaks?

(Speaking as a gay man myself, who does NOT understand why people like this vote against their own interests)

[drunkdriver-in-chief]

39. But Bush has FAILED at national security

The 9-11 attacks occurred on his watch and he hasn't caught OBL yet. Instead he went after saddam who was no threat to america!!!

[bobthedrummer]

49. Piss on those gays that voted for The War President aka George W. Bush

:thumbsdown:

[Tempest]

51. So when they are descriminated against in housing and jobs

I don't want to hear them bitch about it.

[snippy]

58. This "democrats are weak on national security" shit has got to stop.

Which members or branches of the US military will stop doing their duty if a democrat is elected? Which career people in the CIA, FBI, and Homeland Security? Which members of Congress?

Make republicans defend this lying bullshit.

[The Brethren]

87. The CIA is getting tired of his b.s.

Thank you eddiebrowns and tsuki. And nice to meet you. :D

Hi snippy, I agree with you. And ironically one of Bushie’s senior CIA agents, Michael Scheuer with 22 years experience is leaving out of protest. Congratulations to Mr. Scheuer for speaking out and refusing to serve under Bush. His actions are viewed as not “protocol” – and you can bet Bush, Cheney and Co. are royally ticked off.

2 links to the story are: "CIA agent publicly chides White House for terror war"
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1112/p02s02-usfp.html and "CIA Critic of U.S. War on Terror Resigns"
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=7&u=/nm/20041111/ts_nm/security_cia_dc Scheuer will also be on the 60 Minutes program this Sunday.

And he is not alone – just before the election, we watched a documentary involving CIA and other intelligence agents who were very critical of what the chimp and his sidekick, Cheney did with 911 and Iraq. In addition, they wanted to be honest as to why we really went to Iraq in the first place. I think a lot of them are breaking their “don’t’ tell code” because they do give a damn about our country – unlike Bush. And as to why there are other lesbians and gay men out there, who actually feel we are “safer” with junior in office, is beyond me.

[Blue-Jay]

59. Chuckles is still here?

wow. You've got the whole "Post flame-bait & run" style down to a science, don't ya?

[Suziq]

66. What Schmucks . . .

they are. Talk about voting against your own interests. Hope the gays that voted for Bush** are happy being considered 3/5 of a person. I just don't get it.

:hippie:

[annarbor]

68. Morans!

I've had that same argument with friends....just like arguing with a brick wall!

Ann Arbor

[agingdem]

69. Idiots...

After thirty five years of fighting the good fight (civil rights, women's rights, gay rights) I finally understand that I (we) can't help the reality-impaired if they aren't willing to help themselves (lead-to-water-can't-make-them-drink rationale).

[SammyWinstonJack]

71. Way to be duped.

Remind me again, who was in charge of National Security on and before 9/11? :eyes: Why do these people seem never to remember that little fact? Will they continue to give the chimp a free pass when we are again attacked on his watch? Will they demand answers from him when he again fails to keep this Country safe from terrorists? Well, so long as gays can't marry...........:eyes:

[Deja Q]

75. Um, what's left to secure if

we are to be second class, with no just protections?

if the middle class jobs are allowed to continue hemorrhaging out of the US?

if money continues to be wasted?

if insane tax cuts continue to be made, with the existing ones being made permanent?

not to mention the continuing of the shifting of the tax burden onto the middle and lower classes, THE US/WORLD ECONOMIES WILL COLLAPSE.

Fortunately, when he's fired for merely being suspected of being gay, his money will fly back to neverland before you can say "Got lube?"

[Pachamama]

80. There were Jews who supported Hitler too....

...unfortunately when it was too late, they couldn't do much to change that support and make a difference...

I don't know what to say to those homosexuals that supported Bush/FUCheney other than - "What have you done? Why do you hate yourself so much?"

:grr:

[PartyPooper]

105. And, there were gays who supported Hitler!

http://www.q.co.za/2001/2002/06/05-pastout.html

[Divine Discontent]

164. very interesting article...

thanks for posting!

[PartyPooper]

175. You're very welcome. Thanks for reading it! eom

[bushisanidiot]

88. AWoL read a childrens book during 9/11 and they think he's a LEADER?

how can they possibly pick chickenhawk AWoL as being better for our national security? my gawd.. the boy ran and hid in '72 and he ran and hid again in 2001.

HOURS! HOURS went by on 9/11/2001 and the "president" did JACK SHIT to save just ONE american life. He hid like a scared little boy and ran behind his mommie's skirt.

Kerry had boots on the ground during a war and had to dodge actual bullets. He has the level head and courage needed to lead our nation in a post-9/11 age.

I do NOT understand why on earth anyone would possibly believe that scared shitlesss moron would be better for national security than John Kerry.

[baldguy]

92. "Thank you Uncle Adolf, for saving us from those evil communists."

[nikraye]

98. May these Bush Gays...

...be the first to be thrown in the incinerators when the neocons come knocking on our doors!

Fucking morons.

[Gyre]

99. Hope his vote keeps him warm

in the concentration camp the chimp's got planned for him. He'll be secure enough there. It'll be called something like "Uncle Dick's Summer Camp" based on other administration naming policies. (No pun intended)

Gyre

[Gingersnapsback]

109. When they change the status of gays in the military

they will change their vote!:silly:

[Behind the Aegis]

112. Just goes to show...

...that not all gay people are alike and some of us are quite stupid and ill-informed! A gay person who voted for The Fascist is almost as bad as him! They support a thief, a liar, a murder, an unintellectual dolt, and an egomaniac! In my eyes, they are nothing but greedy bags of hormones hastening their own demise!

[Spangle]

114. People need to wake up. Not just Gays!

What PEOPLE need to understand is that the War on Terriosm is BIG TENT. It goes hand in hand with "Protecting Family Values."

What exactly does that mean? ANYTHING that the CHRISTIAN RIGHT considers dangoring Family Values is TERRISING THE FAMILY.

Buddy, if your gay, that MEANS YOU! Your a threath that must be contained and controled. Back in the box you go. If the real through was know, that box would be 6 feet under. This groups beleives that certain types of sinners should be stoned TO DEATH.

Not a Christian. As a Satanist.. YES, they believe ALL who are not Christians are working for Satan. There is no forgiveness for those who are not viewed as Christians. Which is why Preachers can be child molesters and still be forgiven. Clinton, a church goer isn't seen as their kind of Christian. Hence, he can recieve no forgiveness. As such, it's ok to LIE about him or do anything else to him. He is a "combatent" (sp) If your not seen as a Christian by this group, insert your name for Clinton.

Got it?

ONly those within their cult is allowed public forgivenss. So long as they are working towards their groups goals.

The terror threat was REAL TO THEM. The terror was someone besides Bush getting elected.

The Muslums have it right. There IS a Holy War going on. Not just against Muslums. But against ALL who are not certian "Christians."

Guys who voted for Bush because of Terrorism, just voted to become the TARGET of such terrorism.

Non-Christians who voted for Bush because of Terrorism, just voted to become the TARGET of such terrorism.

Christians who are not aghm.. "true believers (as definded by a certain group) who voted for Bush because of Terrorism, just voted to become the TARGET of such terrorism.

I hate to put it that way. But that is the facts.

[Merlin]

115. We threw all our principles on the frivolous sword of gay marriage.

Guess who the fools are here, folks. Hint: it ain't the fascists.

We continue to be blind to the difference between wants and needs.

We continue to pretend we are so much smarter than the other guys.

We continue to ignore the degree to which we are out of touch with the mainstream.

And we continue to lose.

[Susang]

117. We lose because we continually compromise and forsake our values

We are not out of touch with the mainstream, trust me, I'm more in touch with the mainstream than you'll ever know. My job demands it. So did my previous job and every job I've ever held since the first one I ever had when I was 13.

The real fools are the people who think that politics are a game and that strategy trumps people's rights and lives. Those people may win elections, but so do a lot of politicians. They will never do great things and they will never be regarded as important in history, at least in the way they want to be.

Remember, what you may consider a want from vantage point may be considered a real need by someone else. Your contempt is a little misplaced. We are not your enemies.

[The Brethren]

118. :)

"Remember, what you may consider a want from vantage point may be considered a real need by someone else." well said, Susang.

[Merlin]

141. My contempt is precise and accurate. And it's warranted.

That's really cute. Some people may consider gay marriage a real NEED, is that it? So for that tiny fraction of spoiled brats, we should LOSE THE ELECTION!?????

What are you SMOKING?

I'm supposed to trust you that you are in touch with the mainstream? Is this a voting mainstream? Where were their votes on election day?

Did you notice that we got our asses whipped? Do you really think that's just something to dismiss with a philosophical "politics is a game?"

Just listen to this incredibly naive assessment:
"Those people may win elections, but so do a lot of politicians. They will never do great things and they will never be regarded as important in history, at least in the way they want to be."

What are you saying? Do you even CARE about your principals--I mean the ones that go a little deeper than the incredibly trivial WANT of gay marriage.

Do you realize how many children will go without a decent education in a decent school because people who think like you do (or don't think, I should say) demand we get EVERYTHING WE WANT instead of the things we need?

Do you have a clue HOW MANY PEOPLE WILL DIE in the middle east because you and those like you insist on taking liberalism down the path of decadent indifference to whether we win or lose?

Do you realize how many decades the loss of this last election will set us back?

Ideas have consequences, you know. It's long past time for liberals to think with our heads instead of our hearts.

[ibegurpard]

148. The Democratic Party did NOT make gay marriage the front and center

of their campaign. They struggled to find a way to recognize that it's an issue of fairness and yet also realized that many people are very uncomfortable with it.
People felt they were being treated unfairly, they took it to court and a court agreed with them. That's the way it goes. Do I want to make it my life-defining issue? No. But I'm sure as hell not going to DENOUNCE it, which is the only thing that would begin to appease the ugly anti-gay sentiment the Republicans eagerly churned up.

[Susang]

155. Precisely

Asking Democrats to denounce gay rights is quite repulsive to me as a "mindless liberal". ;-)

[The Brethren]

181. I'll second that.....

it is very repulsive and what I would expect from a homophobic republican and the GOP as well as some homophobic democrats.

[Merlin]

190. So it's "homophobic" to want to win elections? Try thinking with your head

instead of your heart.

This is the real world, Brethren. These aren't tiddly winks we're playing with. And you are no longer a child. So how about putting away the things of children, and thinking like an adult.

You think it's "repulsive and what I would expect from a homophobic republican and the GOP as well as some homophobic democrats." That is an incredibly arrogant and insulting comment.

How the fuck is it "homophobic" to be for civil unions but against gay marriages? Do you want to try to answer that? Or are you too busy playing hopscotch?

[The Brethren]

201. Here's Some Hopscotch For You Merlin

Gays did not lose the election. Bush and cronies are the one's who made the gay marriage issue an election issue. No one else. Nice way of being divisive, by the way, though you haven't thought it out well enough for it to work. What are you, 12? Insulting? Well we tend to get back what we put out do we not? Get a clue already.

[Merlin]

216. So we had nothing to do with the gay marriage issue?

It was all up to "Bush & cronies" ? Is that it?

We didn't have a role? We are voiceless? We couldn't have spoken out?

The gay community couldn't have stepped up to the fucking plate and said "We don't NEED gay marriage. We DO NEED civil unions." ?

Liberals like you couldn't have helped make the difference clear?

You know what, I don't give a flying fuck about being devisive. I am sick to fucking death of losing elections because some liberals are too fucking stupid to think clearly about hard ball politics but still insist on having things their way.

You played right into Karl's hands. You were a sitting duck. Proud of yourself?

[The Brethren]

219. Poor Little Merlin

Baiting me is not going to work. Never has and better and more intelligent oafs have tried. The gay marriage issue, since you haven't bothered to figure this out for yourself, is about the Federal Marriage Amendment, introduced by Ms. Musgrave and backed by yes, Bush and cronies, kept constantly in headlines or in the mouths of the right by the same. Not Gays or the "gay community." It is not the responsibility of the gay community to make sure elections are not lost. "Gee let's put this entire election on that supposed mere 30 million people." Stupidity, utter and pure stupidity. It is the responsibility of the gay community to defend against legislated bigotry, when it's aimed at us. The "gay community," unlike the right, voted on more than one issue regardless of who they voted for. The gay community doesn't have to pander to the likes of you or your opinions on "hard politics." You don't even know what "hard politics" are, as is evident from your posts.

Seems you are the only one besides Xtian fundies and the right playing into Rove's hands. You parrot exactly what he wants you to. If anyone here is mindless, it appears it's you. If you feel such hate and discontent toward the entire gay community perhaps you should try aversion therapy and see if you can turn yourself around - the right loves that shit. I am assuming you're gay since you stated "We don't NEED gay marriage. We DO NEED civil unions." With "we" being all inclusive. I don't even know you and it's pretty obvious you've gone off the deep end or you're just naturally thick and reactionary and unable to keep your foul temper in check.

You know what I think? I think people like YOU lost us this election. Why didn't more of your kindred show up to the polls to vote? Doesn't anyone else like you or agree with you? What, you couldn't just stand up and say, "HELLO? We don't need another 4 years of destruction!!" ???? Well?? I guess you were too busy insisting that you have things your own way.

Yes I am quite proud of myself. I've done what I know is right, gay marriage and gay issues aside. You? How many voters did you register? How much research have you done and shared and with how many people about this administration's corruption? What did YOU do? I'm guessing not much other than little tirades such as the ones you have launched here for whatever insane reason. Why don't you bitch and whine to someone this shit actually works on?

[Merlin]

189. Mindless liberal is a very apt description...

of your deceitful attempt to lump gay "marriage" in with gay rights. It is not a "right" I and others fought for for 250 years to have the government sanction a relationship that is odious to the majority. It IS a right to permit people to have such relationships. And many of us argue what the real argument should have been limited to: it is a right to have the legal advantages of marriage in the form of civil unions.

But no. You and your mindless crowd who don't know hardball politics from tiddlywinks were more than willing to bring the entire fucking party down over such a triviality. Enjoy the next 4 years.

For myself, it's permanent war against liberalism gone nuts.

[Susang]

208. Did you get the irony of your reminder of DU's rules

To the poster below? Calling me and others mindless over and over again is also a violation of DU's rules.

And please, you have not fought 250 years for anything. Unless you've discovered the fountain of youth. Then I guess I should be calling you Ponce de Leon. :eyes: Do you not see, you are not the judge over who is "permitted" to have such relationships, or what is a right and what is not? Apparently, the white man's burden lies heavy on your shoulders.

Merlin, I feel intensely sorry for you. For your information, I am fully versed in hardball politics, I just choose to not play the game the same way you seem to. I am not mindless, repeating it over and over again on DU will not make it so, no matter how much you may wish it. Though I should congratulate you, demonizing and diminishing those you oppose is a wondefully effective technique. Unfortunately, it only works in the short term.

[Merlin]

210. Mindlessness is a statement of fact.

Don't take it personally. Judging from this board that I've posted on from the beginning, I'd say a good 2/3 of it are just as misguided as you are.

I feel sorry for you that you must resort to twisting my words in order to make your arguments stand up straight.

Do I really need to school you in the fact that for 250 years men and women have fought and died for LIBERTY and RIGHTS GUARANTEED UNDER THE CONSTITUTION? Do you get my drift here? And I was one of those who so fought. If you want to ridicule that, then go ahead and have fun with it.

And where the hell do you see me at any point in any of my words on any post I have ever made attempting to judge "who is 'permitted' to have" any kind of relationships? You have warped my words because you need to find something wrong in them. And it is McCarthyistic of you to do so.

Please stop lying about what I'm saying, and focus on the truth.

It's sad that you seem to be unable to discern a genuine human right from a frivolity.

Meantime the entire human race will suffer because liberals incapable of distinguishing the truly important from the trivial make us easy targets for the fascists WHO REALLY DO KNOW HOW TO PLAY HARDBALL. Too bad you don't want to get your dainty little fingers dirty and make some of life's tough decisions about what you are willing to fight for and what you will give up in order to salvage those things that are essential. Oh, I know, you're just way too pure to make decisions like that. Everything you believe in is way too sacred to sacrifice. Truly, truly sad.

I am pissed blue that otherwise intelligent people can be so fucking stupid when it comes to the very real world of politics.

If you think it's fun standing up all alone against the vast bulk of head-in-the-clouds liberal idiots who don't even realize yet that we lost this election, you're wrong. But somebody's got to do it. Too much is at stake.

[Susang]

213. Merlin, you are hysterical

You personally insult people, then tell them not to take it personally. Then you call people mindless and say it's statement of fact. I am in awe of your powers of miscommunication.

Seriously, you can't write comedy comedy like that. Thanks for the best laugh I've had today. And to think I was taking you seriously. You're really a performance artist, right and you use DU as your medium? Fucking brilliant. I salute you! :toast:

[Merlin]

188. Right. We let the Republicans do it to us. What's the fucking difference?

Once again, the only defense of people making arguments like you is to exaggerate beyond belief. Listen to yourself:

"I'm sure as hell not going to DENOUNCE it, which is the only thing that would begin to appease the ugly anti-gay sentiment the Republicans eagerly churned up."

First, nothing will ever appease "anti-gay sentiments." They are there. They are powerful. And they will remain. Surely that's no surprise to you. (Yet you allowed your community to advance this losing cause in the middle of a critical election! Unbelievably selfish and spoiled behavior!).

Second, you arrogantly paint all opponents of gay marriage with the same brush, failing to acknowledge those who oppose gay marriage but favor civil unions--that is to say the vast majority of the thinking opposition.

If you want to play in the world of politics, maybe you should take time to think through which of your "wants" has a chance of really making it past the electorate, and which are essential "needs" that you will ask and entire party to stand and fight for at the risk of losing everything -- which is what we have lost.

[Susang]

153. Yes, ideas do have consequences

How kind of you to remind me of that. Yours as well as mine. I am capable of thinking with both my head and my heart. How about you? Or don't all people, gay and straight, male and female, matter in your version of the party?

Black people didn't need to drink at the same drinking fountains as white people or sit at the same lunch counter, at least not according to your logic. Hey, they still had access to fountains and diners, right? Luckily, you weren't around when Rosa Parks got on that bus.

You don't get to decide what rights are important to which people. That's the other party's way of doing things. It's not the homosexuals who want to marry their partners who are the spoiled brats, as far as I can tell.

[Merlin]

191. How about my "right" to burn the flag in classrooms? Will you defend it?

To me I have a right to do that. It will remind young children that in a racist, homophobic, uber-patriotic society we still have the right of dissent.

Hell it's a sacred right protected under the constitution!

I demand the Democratic Party go to its DEATH defending it?

Are you on board? Or are you one of those racists and homophobes and uber-patriots who opposes my "right?"

[Susang]

207. You can burn a flag anywhere you want, honey

You can count on me supporting your right to do it. If you wouldn't do the same for me, then I think you're in the wrong party. Though if you burn a flag in a classroom, I'm pretty sure it's a fire code violation.

[Merlin]

214. So you're going to find a way to weasel out on defending my rights!

I am appalled. Citing fire code violation is on a par with citing religious reservations.

And it's not that I'm asking for your permission. Rather, I'm asking if you are willing to sacrifice everything--including liberty, happiness and even life itself--in order to defend my right. Because that's what you've done defending the nonsensical frivolity of gay marriage during a critical presidential election. You have placed that utterly stupid "mindless" issue ahead of everything else.

Now when you read about another bomb in Iraq, another dead soldier, another mosque or hospital destroyed, please remember those are YOUR bombs and bullets. Please remember YOU were responsible through your foolhardiness for this carnage.

When you read about poor kids who can't get a decent education, or suspects imprisoned without rights, or more tax cuts for the rich, or social security being ripped to shreds or health care out of sight for everybody but the rich, please remember YOU helped bring that about. Please remember it was YOUR INSISTENCE ON HAVING IT ALL instead of just demanding what is essential that brought this about.

Please do feel as guilty as possible for this new dark age that is about to descend upon us. Because your naivete has earned it.

[Susang]

217. Nope, not weaseling, just a "statement of fact"

Fire codes exist, I like them, they save little children's lives. So if you can find a way to burn your flag within the school's fire code limitations, go to town Sparky. I'll be right there with you. I'll even provide the matches. Safety, of course.

Thanks for making me responsible for all the dead Iraqis, mosques, hospitals and soldiers. I was having a pretty good day until then, but now less so. Sorry. I had no idea those bombs and bullets had come from my garage. My bad. I'll be sure to lock up better next time. To be fair, it's probably the neighborhood kids, they keep breaking in.

Thanks again for your kind wishes in regards to my guilt for the coming dark ages. I've always been kind of a night owl, as have all of my friends, so unfortunately, I won't be able to take you up on that intense guilt thing after all. I'll be too busy working and living my life in the "mainstream". Thanks all the same.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go swimming in that mainstream. If you're good, I'll tell you how the water is when I get back. ;-)

[Cheswick2.0]

229. burn all the flags you want

but you can't do it in the classroom because of fire laws.

I can't beleive you equate burning a flag in a classroom with gay marriage. I suppose equality under the law means nothing to you in terms of the constitution?

[TankLV]

145. WE KNOW who the fools are here.

Hint: it IS the fascists like YOU.

YOU and THEY continue to be blind to the difference between wants and needs!

We ARE so much smarter than these idiots!

If THEY are the "mainstream" - then I want NO PART OF IT and am PROUD not to be a part of it!

WE will not become repuke-lite!

WE must continue to fight for ALL of our ideals and NOT GIVE UP THE FIGHT FOR WHAT WE BELIEVE IS RIGHT!

YOU and THEY certainly don't.

[Merlin]

192. Don't call me a fascist. It's against DU rules. And try thinking with

the upper part of your anatomy instead of the lower.

And guess what. THEY ARE the 'mainstream.' And we are not. And all of your mindless bloviating will not change that.

When you come down off your arrogant rant, maybe you'd like to consider this: when you're trying to change society, you do it one step at a time. You don't overload the system. You don't ask people to swallow more at one sitting than they are ready for.

So do you want to win? Or do you just want to rant about how you're entitled to everything and you won't tolerate any less.

Life is not fair. We have to pick and choose those things we are willing to fight and die for. Some things are more important than others. Gay "marriage" is way down the list of critical demands in this fucked up country. If you can't figure that out, you need a shrink.

[Bat Boy]

211. Merlin, you're cracking me up!

You call foul for "fascist", then in the same breath refer to the poster as "arrogant", "mindless", and imply that their thought processes originate in their genitalia.

I have seen you use words like naive, decietful, fools, and my favorite - "piffling little inconsequential spoiled brat". All applied to people who firmly believe that gay marriage is worth the fight.

I only bring this up to point out a double standard at work. "It's okay for me, but don't you do it..."

It's fair or it's not. Much like the topic at hand. I find that fascinating.

[Cheswick2.0]

227. you think civil rights are a want?

which one of yours would you like to give up?

[TankLV]

121. Sounds just like a few posters here on DU

that want to turn us into repuke-lite.

[Merlin]

193. Sounds like others want to keep losing elections.

They demand the electorate support every piddling thing they've ever desired. Sounds like spoiled brats to me.

The real world outcome of your demand not to compromise (under the pain of being thought of as "repuke-lite") is that

We are now going to be ruled by Repuke heavy.

Can you wrap your brain around that one?

[private_ryan]

124. Good

now tell them to shut the f up when they start bitching about equal rights. They didn't want them on Nov 2nd

[ibegurpard]

134. I'm gay and I could care less about the Republican positions on gay rights

What scares the shit out of me are their moves to dismantle checks and balances in our political system. Without those checks and balances, EVERY ONE OF US who doesn't go along with their agenda could be at risk.
People like this guy are fools and it shocks me that anyone who could be on the front line of the radical right's assault on America's very system of governance could be so woefully uninformed.

[Merlin]

142. Thank you. But why didn't we hear this from the gay community a month ago?

It's refreshing to hear your point of view.

The mindless liberals who think gay marriage is some kind of inalienable right, and are willing to lose an election as critical as this past one drive me up a wall.

[ibegurpard]

146. It's not mindless

It's an issue of fairness. And I will always stand up for what I think is fair.
My point is that I'm MUCH more frightened of them destroying checks and balances than I am of their gay-baiting. Because that REMOVES any avenues of redress that we have.

[Merlin]

187. That is completely hypocritical.

You admit--in your first post--that you really didn't care about gay marriage; that it just wasn't that important.

But you implicitly insist that the Democratic Party must literally fall on its sword and LOSE AN ELECTION SETTING OUR PARTY, OUR NATION AND THE WORLD BACK A GENERATION OR MORE by defending this piffling little inconsequential spoiled brat desire for gay "marriage" because "it's an issue of fairness."

I've got news for you. Life isn't fair. Get used to it.

My party doesn't exist to pioneer new social principles in the middle of vitally important elections. Get your priorities straight. Stop using the gullible foolish liberals who don't understand the real world in order to advance your otherwise indefensible cause.

[ibegurpard]

225. Why do you eqate "refuse to denounce" with "must fall on sword for?"

There's a WORLD of wiggle room between the two.

[rangergordon]

165. Well, we were a little busy last month ...

... what with our silly little fight attempting to blcok eleven well-funded proposals from permanently enshrining our status as second-class citizens in state constitutions across the country.

And, by the way: It wasn't the gays and the "mindless liberals who think gay marriage is some kind of inalienable right" that lost us the election. However much those ballot measures hurt Democrats, remember that it was the right-wing Repugs who put those amendments on the ballot, not gays; not "mindless" liberals.

Gays have been organizing to advocate equality and social justice for generations now. Sorry if you find us inconvenient, but we didn't just pop out of the woodwork during the 2004 election in order to spoil your plans.

And, if you think about it, 80% of us voted for Kerry, which makes us a much more loyal Democratic bloc than heterosexuals.

[Merlin]

186. A lot of good your "silly little fight" did you. Apparently you can't...

tell the difference between what you "want" and what you "need."

Your "silly little fight" brought down everything we we trying to accomplish. It set the entire nation back a generation. It gave the right wing even more ammunition.

I am sick and tired of the Democratic Party carrying water for spoiled brats who insist on having their way in the face of obvious evidence that the nation is not ready for it.

Go out and make what you want popular. THEN come to our party and ask us to support it. Not the other way around.

This is insane! Our party does not exist to pioneer new social proposals in the face of obvious overwhelming opposition. It exists to govern the country.

[rangergordon]

230. Get irony much?

As I said, our "silly little fight" -- in scare quotes to denote irony, in case you didn't notice -- was (and is) against becoming the first minority since slaves to be singled out for discrimination at the constitutional level. You're saying we should have just laid down and not bothered organizing against these initiatives because somehow, the fact that we fought against the right-wing idiots jeopardized Kerry's candidacy.

If that's what you really believe, you're being incredibly short-sighted and naive. Next time your civil rights are targeted by a constitutional amendment, we'll talk.

These ballot initiatives were placed there by right-wingers, not by us. Once again, we were used as a wedge issue.

Some Democratic candidates, recognizing that the gay and lesbian vote is one of the most cohesive blocs for Democrats, court our votes by supporting our causes. In turn, we tend to champion the rights of women, labor and other minorities.

Gays never asked the DNC to "pioneer" any "new social proposals." However, the HRC alone gave over $1.8 million to Democratic congressional candidates in this last election.

Now, if we had agitated to get constitutional amendments allowing marriage equity for gays and lesbians on 11 state ballots during an important election year, I could -- possibly -- see your beef. However, that's not what happened.

Do you understand that?

Or are you a stealth right-winger attempting to stir up a divisive issue in the Democratic camp?

[__Inanna__]

173. You are right to be worried -Constitution Restoration Act of 2004

Does anyone know of this? It's being pushed heavily by conservatives and according to one source,it's passed, but when I looked for more info, I think it's close to being determined.
Here's how section 1260 sums up:

`Sec. 1260. Matters not reviewable
`Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the Supreme Court shall not have jurisdiction to review, by appeal, writ of certiorari, or otherwise, any matter to the extent that relief is sought against an element of Federal, State, or local government, or against an officer of Federal, State, or local government (whether or not acting in official personal capacity), by reason of that element's or officer's acknowledgement of God as the sovereign source of law, liberty, or government

(this last sentence should give one pause)

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.2082

I am not a lawyer, but for an interpretation of what this bill could mean, here's a link.

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/ConstitutionRestorationAct.htm

Yeah, I know it's boring, but to conservatives and others this legislation getting passed is/was every bit as important as getting * in the White House.

[ibegurpard]

226. Oh yes, I've seen that.

:scared:

[hollywood926]

137. I am a Jew and I voted for Hitler.

I mean, I know he hates Jews but there are other things I like about him, such as the fact that he created so many jobs.

I look forward to seeing what he will do in his remaining years in power.

[donheld]

139. It's really too bad

Too many gay men and i'm sure lesbians too, are just as greedy and imperialistic as bushie and his cabal. Some would sell out there rights for greed. I'm sure PNAC has it's share of gay members. :puke:

[Cyrix]

147. At least there were good intentions

Putting country first. More than any republican will do.

They got duped in to thinking bush would protect us. Still they voted for (what they were misled to believe) would be the good of the country over themselves. How many non-gay republicans do that?

[kori]

150. The reactionary Mullahs of right wing Christendom won power

I have little in common with them either in basic belief. Their God is not my God any more than Allah is. That is the basic problem and difference and until the American people learn that fundamentalism of any kind is derived from hate not love or acceptance we can no win. That is the battle we need to fight, not this compromise to become more like Republicans. I am disheartened at the naivety of many groups and individuals in America, this gay group being one. Below is a letter sent to Evangelicals across the country. How many of you want to live in a country dictated by this convoluted logic?

A Must-Read Election Message

Three Focus on the Family executives — including founder and chairman Dr. James C. Dobson — have signed on to an open letter to the American people stressing the importance of relying on biblical values in selecting candidates on Election Day.

In addition to Dobson, Focus President Don Hodel and Vice President of Church, Clergy and Medical Outreach H.B. London Jr. also signed the letter. In all, it is endorsed by more than 80 ministry leaders, pastors and Christian professors from across the United States.

The text of the letter follows:

The Bible speaks to several ethical issues in this election.

Many Americans seek guidance from the Bible for important issues of life, while we recognize that many others do not. With thankfulness for the freedom of all Americans to believe whatever they think best regarding matters of religion and ethics, we offer this statement of our personal understanding of the teachings of the Bible for the thoughtful consideration of all who are interested in how the Bible might speak to ethical issues in the current election.

1. Supreme Court justices: People don't often think of the appointment of Supreme Court Justices as an ethical issue, but it clearly is now because several decisions of the Supreme Court have imposed on our nation new policies on major ethical and religious questions.

A small majority of our current Supreme Court, and lower courts that follow their example, have gone beyond their Constitutionally defined task of interpreting laws passed by Congress and state legislatures, and have in effect created new "laws" that have never been passed by any elected body. By this process they have imposed on us decrees that allow abortionists to murder unborn babies (contrary to Exodus 20:13 and Romans 13, "you shall not murder"), that protect pornographers who poison the minds of children and adults (contrary to Exodus 20:17, "You shall not covet ... your neighbor's wife; see also Matt. 5:28), that redefine marriage to include homosexual couples (thus giving governmental encouragement to actions that Romans 1:26-28 says are morally wrong), and that banish prayer, God's name and God's laws from public places (thus prohibiting free exercise of religion, and violating Romans 13:3 which says that government should be "not a terror to good conduct, but to bad"). In taking to itself the right to decree such policies, the Supreme Court has seriously distorted the system of "checks and balances" intended by the Constitution between the legislative, executive, and judicial branches of government.

It is unlikely that any elected body such as a city council, state legislature, or the U.S. Congress, would have decreed policies like those mentioned above, for such groups are accountable to the will of the people. Not so the Supreme Court, which is appointed for life. And democratically-elected members of Congress and state legislatures are helpless to change those Court-mandated policies unless the makeup of the Supreme Court is changed. We believe the ethical choice is for a President and for U. S. Senators committed to appointing judges who will follow the original intent of the Constitution and just interpret law and not make it, rather than for candidates who have often voted to block such judges in votes in the Senate.

2. Defense against terrorists: A fundamental responsibility of government is to "punish those who do evil" (1 Pet. 2:14) and thus to protect its citizens. We now face a unique challenge, because terrorists who will sacrifice their own lives in killing others cannot be deterred by the usual threat of punishing a criminal after he commits a crime. While Jesus instructed individuals not to seek personal revenge but to turn the other cheek (Matt. 5:39), the Bible teaches that governments are responsible to "bear the sword" (Rom. 13:4) and thus to use force to oppose violent evil. We believe the ethical choice is for a candidate who will pursue terrorists and, when necessary, use force to stop them before they strike us, not for a candidate who only promises to respond if we are attacked again.

3. Abortion: The Bible views the unborn child as a human person who should be protected, since David said to God, "You knitted me together in my mother's womb" (Psalm 139:13; see also Psalm 51:5; 139:13; Luke 1:44), and strong penalties were imposed for endangering or harming the life of an unborn child (Exod. 21:22-23). We believe the ethical choice is for candidates who believe government should give protection to the lives of unborn children, not ones who believe government should allow people to choose to murder their unborn children if they wish.

4. Homosexual marriage: The Bible views marriage as between one man and one woman, for "a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh" (Gen. 2:24; Eph. 5:31). Because our courts have shown a troubling tendency to overturn the laws that have already been passed concerning marriage, we believe the ethical choice is for candidates who support a Constitutional amendment defining marriage as between one man and one woman.

5. Embryonic stem cell research : Creating more human embryos for their stem cells is making the beginnings of little babies for the purpose of harvesting their parts, contrary to the command, "You shall not murder" (Exod. 20:13). There is a good alternative: using adult stem cells for medical research, because this does not destroy the life of the adult whose cells are used. We believe the ethical choice is for a candidate who has decided he will not allow government funds to be spent to create more human embryos just to take their stem cells.

6. Natural resources: God put human beings on the earth to "subdue it" and to "have dominion" over the animals (Gen. 1:28). We value the beauty of the natural world which God created, and we believe that we are called to be responsible stewards who protect God's creation while we use it wisely and also seek to safeguard its usefulness for future generations. The Bible does not view "untouched nature" as the ideal state of the earth, but expects human beings to develop and use the earth's resources wisely for mankind's needs (Gen. 1:28; 2:15; 9:3; 1 Tim. 4:4). In fact, we believe that public policy based on the idealism of "untouched nature" hinders wise development of the earth's resources and thus contributes to famine, starvation, disease, and death among the poor. We believe the ethical choice is for candidates who will allow resources to be developed and used wisely, not for candidates indebted to environmental theories that oppose nearly all economic development in our nation and around the world.

7. Should Christians speak out and try to influence our nation on these issues? God's people in the Bible often spoke about ethical issues to government rulers. Daniel told the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar to practice "righteousness" and to show "mercy to the oppressed" (Dan. 4:27); several Old Testament prophets speak to foreign nations about their sins (Isaiah 13-23; Ezekiel 25-32, Amos 1-2, Obadiah (to Edom), Jonah (to Nineveh), Nahum (to Nineveh), Habakkuk 2, Zephaniah 2); and Paul spoke to the Roman governor Felix "about righteousness and self-control and the coming judgment" (Acts 24:25).

As Christian leaders we agree that the primary message of the New Testament is the good news about salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. But the primary message is not the whole message, and another significant part of the New Testament teaches us how people should live. With respect to issues like these we have mentioned, the Bible also teaches us about what kinds of laws governments should have.

The laws of a nation have a significant influence on the nation's moral climate, for good or for ill. This is because laws can either restrain evil or encourage it, and because laws also have a teaching function as they inform people about what a government thinks to be right and wrong conduct.

Therefore we urge pastors and Bible study leaders to teach on these crucial ethical issues facing our nation. We urge all Christians that they have a moral obligation to learn about the candidates' positions, to be informed, and to vote. We urge all Christians to pray that truthful speech and right conduct on both sides would prevail in this election. We also encourage Christians to consider doing even more for the good of our nation, such as giving time or money, or talking to friends and neighbors, or even serving in office themselves. Such influence for good on the direction of our country is one important way of fulfilling Jesus' command, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Matt. 22:19).




Pastors and Christian Leaders

Dr. Daniel L. Akin, President, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, NC
Dr. Randy Alcorn, Director, Eternal Perspective Ministries, Gresham, OR
Kerby Anderson, National Director, Probe Ministries and host, Point of View radio, Dallas, TX
Dr. Neil T. Anderson, Founder and President Emeritus, Freedom in Christ Ministries
Jack and Kay Arthur, CEO and Founders, Precepts Ministries International
Dr. Barry Asmus, Senior Economist, National Center for Policy Analysis, Dallas, TX
Ted Baehr, Chairman, Christian Film & Television Commission, Camarillo, CA
Dr. Mark Bailey, President, Dallas Theological Seminary
Gary Bauer, President, American Values
Joel Belz, Founder and Publisher, World Magazine
Tal Brooke, President/Chairman, Spiritual Counterfeits Project Inc.
Paul Cedar, Chairman, Mission America Coalition
Dr. E. Ray Clendenen, Executive editor, Bibles and Reference Books, Broadman & Holman Publishers
Rev. Eugene Clingman, Executive Administrator, International Church Council Project, Hathaway Pines, CA
Dr. Darryl DelHousaye, President, Phoenix Seminary and Senior Pastor, Scottsdale Bible Church, Scottsdale, AZ
Nancy Leigh DeMoss, Author, Host of Revive our Hearts radio
Dr. Lane T. Dennis, President and Publisher, Good News Publishers/ Crossway Books and Bibles, Wheaton, IL
Dr. James Dobson, Chairman, Focus on the Family, Colorado Springs, CO
Dr. Bert Downs, President, Western Seminary, Portland, OR
Dr. Tom Elliff, Pastor, First Southern Baptist Church, Del City, Oklahoma, and past president, Southern Baptist Convention
Tom Fortson, President, Promise Keepers
Dr. Joel Nederhood, Director of Ministries Emeritus, Back to God Hour, Christian Reformed Church
Dr. Steve Farrar, Founder and Chairman, Men's Leadership Ministries, Frisco, TX
Dr. Ronnie Floyd, Senior Pastor, First Baptist Church - Springdale, AR and The Church at Pinnacle Hills - Rogers, AR
Dr. Jack Hayford, Chancellor, The King's College and Seminary, Van Nuys, CA
Dr. Jim Henry, Senior Pastor, First Baptist Church, Orlando, FL, and past president, Southern Baptist Convention
Dr. R. Kent Hughes, Senior Pastor, College Church in Wheaton, Wheaton, IL
Susan Hunt, Author
The Hon. Don Hodel, President, Focus on the Family, Colorado Springs, CO
Charles W. Jarvis, Chairman, USA Next-United Seniors Association
Dr. David Jeremiah, Founder, Turning Point Radio and Television Ministries and Senior Pastor, Shadow Mountain Community Church, El Cajon, CA
Dr. R. T. Kendall, Bible teacher, Author Dr. D.,br>
James Kennedy, Chancellor, Knox Theological Seminary, Fort Lauderdale, FL


Dr. Tim Kimmel, Executive Director, Family Matters, Scottsdale, AZ


Dr. Gary Kinnaman, Senior Minister, Word of Grace Church, Mesa, Arizona


Bob Lepine, Co-Host, FamilyLife Today
Dr. Robert Lewis, Pastor at Large, Fellowship Bible Church, Little Rock, AR
Dr. Crawford W. Loritts, Jr., Author, Speaker, Radio Host, Atlanta, GA
H.B. London Jr., Vice President, Church, Clergy & Medical Outreach; Focus on the Family
Dr. James MacDonald, Senior Pastor, Harvest Bible Chapel, Rolling Meadows, IL


Josh McDowell, President, Josh McDowell Ministries


Len Munsil, President, Center for Arizona Policy
Dr. Marvin Olasky, Editor-in-chief, World Magazine


Rod Parsley, Founder, Center for Moral Clarity
Dr. Paige Patterson, President, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX, and past president, Southern Baptist Convention
Ron Prentice, Executive Director, California Family Council
Dr. Dennis Rainey, President, FamilyLife, Little Rock, AR


Dr. Phil Roberts, President, Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Kansas City, MO
Alan E. Sears, President, Alliance Defense Fund, Scottsdale, AZ


Jeff Schulte, Teaching Pastor, Fellowship Bible Church, Nashville, TN
Dr. Joseph M. Stowell III, President, Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, IL
Dr. Joseph Wasmond, President, Freedom in Christ Ministries, Knoxville, TN
Dr. Stu Weber, Senior Pastor, Good Shepherd Community Church, Gresham, OR
Donald E. Wildmon, Founder and Chairman, American Family Association

Professors at Christian colleges and theological seminaries

Dr. Gregg R. Allison, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, KY
Dr. James A. Borland, Liberty University, Lynchburg, VA
Dr. Gerry Breshears, Western Seminary, Portland, OR
Dr. Harold O. J. Brown, Reformed Theological Seminary, Charlotte, NC
Dr. L. Russ Bush, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, NC
Dr. Fred Chay, Phoenix Seminary, Scottsdale, AZ
Dr. Richard C. Chewning, Baylor University (Emeritus), and John Brown University, Siloam Springs, AR
Dr. Jack Cottrell, Cincinnati Bible Seminary, Cincinnati, OH
Dr. Kendell Easley, Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary, Germantown, TN
Dr. Wayne Grudem, Phoenix Seminary, Scottsdale, AZ
Dr. Howard G. Hendricks, Dallas Theological Seminary, Dallas, TX
Dr. George W. Knight, III, Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary, Taylors, SC
Dr. J. Carl Laney, Western Seminary, Portland, OR
Dr. David E. Lanier, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, NC
Dr. Steve Lemke, New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, New Orleans, LA
Dr. Daniel R. Heimbach, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, NC
Dr. Mark Daniel Liederbach, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, NC
Dr. Tom J. Nettles, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, KY
Dr. Dorothy Kelley Patterson, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX
Dr. Alvin L. Reid, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, NC
Dr. Leland Ryken, Wheaton College, Wheaton, IL
Dr. Wayne G. Strickland, Multnomah Bible College and Seminary, Portland, OR
Dr. Steven R Tracy, Phoenix Seminary, Scottsdale, AZ
Dr. Bruce Ware, The Southern Baptist Seminary, Louisville, KY
Dr. Paul Wegner, Phoenix Seminary, Scottsdale, AZ
Dr. Robert W. Yarbrough, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Deerfield, IL



This is a partial list of signers. For a full, updated list, or to get a current electronic copy, visit the Arizona Policy Council Web site.

Additional note: The following legal opinion regarding this statement has been given by a prominent, highly knowledgeable tax attorney:

It is the opinion of an Arizona tax lawyer of long experience, that the enclosed statements, if made from the pulpit or by a church representative, do not violate the prohibition against political advocacy by a tax-exempt organization. The reason is that this memorandum deals with issues rather than candidates or parties. Tax-exempt organizations, including churches, are not prohibited from expressing views on moral and other issues. This paper deals with issues.

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[agincourt]

151. never in my years,

will I be able to figure out how 100,000 dead iraqis, nearly 20,000 of ours wounded or dead, and 200 billion down the drain , yet bin laden is still alive and well. How this translates into good nat'l security policy is beyond me. It's as if a skyscraper doesn't fall each month , so chimp is doing a good job. A real president wouldn't let it happen to begin with. Muddle. muddle and more muddled logic.

[IndianaGreen]

156. The Republican Log Cabin Society did not support Bush this year

I guess they were more on the ball than some of the other gays.

[Merlin]

194. They didn't support Kerry either.

So what's your point?

[IndianaGreen]

203. Because Kerry did not support same-sex marriage!

Easy for that sob to say that marriage is okay for heteros but not for gays and lesbians.

[Merlin]

209. Keep drinking the kool-aid IG.

The old truth that politics is the art of the possible never did cut any ice with you, did it.

[sangh0]

218. Neither are Gay Rights organizations

Caution in Court for Gay Rights Groups
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/12/national/12gays.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1100376313-IhtB+qetMJvoI0FC+Kd0pw

"Fearful that aggressive action could backfire and generate public hostility, gay rights groups are planning to limit the scope of their legal challenges to the constitutional amendments banning gay marriage that were passed by 11 states last week.

The groups are making a temporary retreat from their most fundamental goal, winning the right for same-sex marriages, and focusing instead on those measures that addressed civil unions in some way. The groups say that broader suits seeking the right to marry could add fuel to President Bush's efforts to create a federal prohibition on gay marriage. Many of the state amendments passed by overwhelming margins, and Karl Rove, the architect of Mr. Bush's re-election, said this week that there was a broad national consensus that marriage is between a man and a woman.

So challenging the new state amendments by arguing that gays have the right to marry under the federal Constitution is unlikely anytime soon. Instead, gay rights groups will move cautiously, mostly on procedural matters in states whose measures appear to infringe on civil unions and benefits for same-sex couples...."

[spanone]

157. Bushco plays their trump card...basic human desire: survival

Fear and Fearmongering. Animals instinctively will do anything if they believe their survival is in question. That includes voting for *. I think this gay man should enlist in the armed forces and do his part.

[queerart]

166. Sad, Sad, Sad!

[Tight_rope]

168. IGNORANCE is a "disease" and Winn has a severe case of it!

He is definitely incurable.

[Clarkie1]

169. Yep, it was and is "national security, stupid"

[Booster]

174. Just proves that gays can be just as stupid as straights.

[fortyfeetunder]

176. Big effing deal.

And for them and the rest of the supporters, when they complain even ONCE about how bad things get for them in the next four years, I'll suggest looking for sympathy between shitty and system in the dictionary.

[dennis4868]

179. "national security is more important "

so when a president gets many memos that warn of terrorist attacks by al Qaeda and one of them says BIN LADEN DETERMINED TO ATTACK IN THE USA using planes and ignores these warnings that has nothing to do with national security? Sheeesh...what assholes they are!

[are_we_united_yet]

182. Don't explain

you are just f#cking stupid.

[Tight_rope]

195. See! This is what we get for letting homosexuals out of the closet!

For years homosexuals knew without a doubt that the neon-cons hated them and wanted them killed off. But NOOOO! Being the compassionate, loving, caring Democrats that we are. We said NO! Under the law, everyone is equal and should be treated so. So we march, fought and some died to make sure that homosexuals had the same rights as those who are black, white, female and male. So this is the thanks that the Democratic party gets. Well, it won't be long before the reight wing will kill homosexuals off or force them back in the closet. I bet those same people who voted for Bush* will come crawling back to the party that always loved, supported and protected their rights.

[Charlie Brown]

196. There's a strong argument that the marriage debacle

will do more harm than good for gay rights. Here in the South, many businesses have adopted domestic partner benefits and the sodomy laws have of course, been dropped. Now that the Christians are up in arms against the gay community, they could start pressuring employers to fire openly gay people or drop their partners from policies. The SC has said it's perfectly legal for private businesses to discriminate over orientation and there's zero proection from that (except maybe a harrassment lawsuit). Now that many of the red states are outlawing unions, even businesses who want to cover partners could be prohibitted from doing so by law. I'm all for equal rights, but if the effort is going to cost others hard-won gains, it's sometimes best to fight another day.

[Tight_rope]

199. Charlie what is yor position!....I've read all your post & you are

flip flopping. From what I read in your earlier post you were saying the homosexuals have the right to vote for Bush*. Which is true. So why the hell do you care if the neo-cons fire homosexuals.

[Charlie Brown]

232. I don't like seeing people fired b/c of their orientation

The GLBT who voted for Bush believed his position on the matter was little different than Kerry's. I think that's BS, but it's clearly what a lot of them believed. The Dems need to be aware that there are gay voters who felt let down because of the marriage argument. Otherwise, they're going to fall short by a million votes in '08, '12, etc.

[indepat]

198. Seems the exclusive franchise for keeping us safe rests solely with one

political party.

[grace0418]

202. I hope somebody remembers to print a copy of his

statements and send it to him when he's sitting in King George's internment camps.

[quiet.american]

204. Kool-Aid Drinkers

ANYONE who voted for Bush based on their concerns about national security is a KOOL-AID DRINKER -- PERIOD!

[EndElectoral]

205. What an idiot. As if AWOL GW has a monopoly on the national security capa

bility...

[Behind the Aegis]

206. just a tad more dangerous

They are just a little more dangerous than the Democrats who are suggesting we drop gay civil rights in order to win the election. I am conflicted as to whom I have a greater distaste for!

[kayell]

212. Without looking, I'm going to guess they took the brown acid.

Massive, horrible, mind-wrenching hallucinations are the only reasonable explanation anyway.

[buddysmellgood]

215. Gays for Bush...That's like Jews for Hitler.

[tortfeasor]

220. Sort of...

I agree with you that a Republican gay is an anamoly. Check out the Log Cabin Republicans.... their issues are military force and taxes, of course.

My guess is they just don't see the BIG picture. It seems they would rather be denied civil rights than to have to pay taxes. Whatever. As a lesbian Democrat, it is the most ridiculous concept I've ever heard of. How can one put a price on civil rights?

[buddysmellgood]

231. It's unAmerican. I don't like to throw that around but

civil rights are central to being American. To be an American means having basic rights. To reject those right for one's self or others is simply contrary to what is required to live free.

[Zhade]

228. Hell, even ANDREW SULLIVAN knew to vote against b*sh.

And Sullivan is a lying rightwing propagandist if there ever was one. A real "Aunt Tom".

[Digit]

233. The gays I know WEREN'T stoopid enough to vote for *

The majority of the people voted for * PERIOD! Including every group!
Look at the exit polls!