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Kire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 12:02 PM
Original message
Is Persuasion Dead? (NYT)
Edited on Sat Jun-04-05 12:02 PM by Kire

Is Persuasion Dead?

By MATT MILLER
Published: June 4, 2005

Speaking just between us - between one who writes columns and those who read them - I've had this nagging question about the whole enterprise we're engaged in.

Is persuasion dead? And if so, does it matter?

The significance of this query goes beyond the feelings of futility I'll suffer if it turns out I've wasted my life on work that is useless. This is bigger than one writer's insecurities. Is it possible in America today to convince anyone of anything he doesn't already believe? If so, are there enough places where this mingling of minds occurs to sustain a democracy?

The signs are not good. Ninety percent of political conversation amounts to dueling "talking points." Best-selling books reinforce what folks thought when they bought them. Talk radio and opinion journals preach to the converted. Let's face it: the purpose of most political speech is not to persuade but to win, be it power, ratings, celebrity or even cash.

More: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/04/opinion/04miller_oped.html?ex=1118548800&en=b428292ab088a0c8&ei=5070&emc=eta1
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. It sure would seem so. More's the pity.
My experience with this: I spent a good deal of time posting on another message board in the months leading up to November 2004. It wasn't a political board, but had a section where any issue of the day could be discussed, and naturally the war on Iraq, then the election, each engendered quite a number of threads.

When it came to the war on Iraq and my opposition to Bush, I marshalled facts, argued rationally, didn't bash or belittle, yet I do not believe I persuaded one person there who didn't already agree with me. My posts there have declined greatly since then, because I've given up trying to persuade the unpersuadable. I let them stew in their own juices.

And I don't do this for a living; I can only imagine some columnists feeling they were yelling in a sandstorm.





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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. Everyone loves to hear their own thoughts and words written or said...
...by others. It validates their position. It is difficult to persuade anyone to give up their position because everyone has dug in their heals and stands firm. Only when people are affected adversely by a position they have taken and supported, will there be an opportunity or chance to persuade someone otherwise.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. Balderdash
A senior fellow at Center for American Progress, writes a monthly column for Fortune? His naivete is unconvincing.

The problem with The Emperor's New Clothes is that no one-- particularly well-heeled conservative think-tankers-- wants to point out that the gentleman is stark raving NAKED.

"The politicians and the press didn't kill off persuasion intentionally, of course; it's more manslaughter than murder."

Excuse me, um, YES THEY DID.

"Persuasion just isn't relevant to delivering elections or eyeballs. Pols have figured out that to get votes you don't need to change minds. Even when they want to, modern media make it hard. They give officials seconds to make their point, ignore their ideas in favor of their poll numbers or showcase a clash of caricatures, believing this is the only way to make "debate" entertaining. Elections may turn on emotions like hope and fear anyway, but with persuasion's passing, there's no alternative.

Miller feeds into the dangerous and prevalent notion that "they all do it" and there's no difference b/w sides of the aisle. He conveniently ignores the past 25 year campaign of bamboozlement perpetrated by the consolidated media machine and the wrong wing hatemongers.

Methinks the perpetrator doth protest too much.

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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Was that persuasive?
:evilgrin:
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. If persuasion has died, it's because
the FACT was murdered long before. To attempt to persuade someone with an opposed point of view one needs a sound logical process (logos), an apparently well intentioned approach (ethos), but to engage in debate and get a concession, one needs the anchoring support of external, indubitable facts that either negate the opposed view or prove your own proposition. Persuasion doesn't require absolute mathematical proofs or fully expressed deductive syllogisms, but it does require a mutual respect for things-which-are-so. Respect for factuality is a personal and cultural attitude that is external and prior to any particular subject under discussion or any attitude towards any subject. Unfortunately under the pressure of including the corporate viewpoint in public discussions, and the pressure more lately of abjectly deferring to the corporate viewpoint without even a credible pretense of including any other side, that essential respect has been almost totally erased from our culture and our politics. I think I understand how it was gradually destroyed, but how to get it back again is a total mystery.

In America and also in many countries in our shadow, FACTS are now treated as infinitely debatable, infinitely disputable and valued at nothing, instead of being the guideposts and limits on rational discourse, the yellow lines on the road between which sane thought has to travel even against its will. When a political battle is joined one side makes itself immune to persuasion by simply ignoring the fact-status and factual content of the opposition's arguments. The truth value of facts enlisted as confirmation or abnegation for the arguments of the reality based community is instantly washed away by a refusal to examine them or admit them to the debate. Rather like Orwell imagined it in 1984, those little nuggets of external objective reality called facts can simply be unthought from existence. Facts are fatal and tend to force an end to debates. All some interests like corporations need however, is to keep debate perpetually open, to prevent debate from reaching democratically realized conclusion in a public policy: so the FACT had to die. The trick to prevailing in all debate, our friends on the ideological right have discovered, is never to engage in rational debate in the first place.

A culture that will not defer to facts, which no longer respects facts and which consistently puts its cherished ideologies (myths) before contradicting factual evidence has literally lost its mind and the end is probably soon coming for it.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. If a fact falls in the forest.........
Edited on Sat Jun-04-05 05:59 PM by omega minimo
"I think I understand how it was gradually destroyed, but how to get it back again is a total mystery."

Like democracy, it has to be YANKED back. Will "persuasion" wake people up? In the environment you describe so well, no. Like democracy, it is, and always has been, dependent on the INDIVIDUAL (like Winston Smith) to recognize, remember and witness the disappearing of "things-which-are-so" as it happens. As you say, "Respect for factuality is a personal and cultural attitude that is external and prior to any particular subject under discussion or any attitude towards any subject."

The American public chose to go along with this charade starting with Reagan. This is why, on Deep Throat Disassemblement Day, I started a thread to try to get perspective from those who did read the writing on the wall-- and how the hell did we arrive here anyway?http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1821041&mesg_id=1821041&page=

"Persuasion doesn't require absolute mathematical proofs or fully expressed deductive syllogisms, but it does require a mutual respect for things-which-are-so."

We've gone from "things-which-are-so" to things-which-are-so-so. And citizens who are so so-so. If that sounds judgemental, so-so be it.:evilgrin: As you point out:

"A culture that will not defer to facts, which no longer respects facts and which consistently puts its cherished ideologies (myths) before contradicting factual evidence has literally lost its mind and the end is probably soon coming for it."

The Clothes Have No Emperor.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
6. It's not completely dead. Mostly.
Edited on Sat Jun-04-05 12:54 PM by igil
Even some college freshmen (ok, first year students) have difficulty being persuaded of things they don't want to believe. We all do this to some extent. I'd like to think college-educated people didn't use to do this--the only people I knew that did it were fundamentalist Xians--but almost everybody I know routinely has this approach now.

Take the undergrads I taught at a prestigious, private school in the NE a couple of years ago (a group at a large public university on the west coast were the same). They may have no facts bearing on an issue, but to try to convince them that they're wrong on some point by marshalling facts is to impugn their intellect and character, and shows their self-esteem to be based on little. They're entitled to their (groundless) opinion, and entitled to having everybody not only tolerate it, but at the very least respect it, if not actively appreciate it.

Many others decide to ignore facts that are inconvenient. Or they only read what they agree with. Or revise an author's past conclusions based upon something they say today.

Yet others assume "critical thinking" implies only criticism, in the sense of "perjoration", not what "critical thinking" used to mean. Esp. if what is read is somehow tainted--either the teacher's disapproved of it, has said to critique it, or the student disagrees with it or dislikes the author for other reason's ahead of time. (It's distressing to hear a grad student diss well-grounded research not because it's unsound, but because the author's in the "wrong camp".) Part of critical thinking was careful consideration of whether the facts presented are true or at least reasonable, portrayed fairly accurately and in context. Some skip the basic step of reviewing the facts as "elementary" and beneath them, and rush to ask if the analysis was performed correctly--it must be state not only on all the facts presented or known at the time, but on all the facts known to the reader. An analysis may be judged false even if the analysis can accommodate, or be trivially altered to accommodate, facts not presented; or, conversely, the analysis may be judged false if facts that are tangential to the analysis are found to be in error. Or they rush to the conclusion: Belief in the conclusion's erroneousness is sufficient to presuppose errors of fact or analysis, no sufficiently large errors need be identified. In some cases, a margin of doubt in the conclusion is taken as prima facie evidence the analysis is wrong, if the reader doesn't agree with the conclusion; in others, an absence of doubt is taken as evidence the author is arrogant, and can be dismissed. Critical thinking isn't based on fact or analysis, too often.

It's distressing to have a student reject an conclusion that is mostly dead-on accurate, although a detail or two of the analysis or facts are wrong, but only tangentially, or allowing an easy adjustment to the analysis and conclusion; when I asked the student why reject a certain analysis when the conclusion's still fairly sound, I sometimes find the student is a perfect absolutist; or since I had said things ahead of time implying that I disagreed with the author or some fact, the student was just sucking up, and is horribly confused. His role isn't to reason, draw conclusions, and actual garner knowledge, but to find fault, and justify his (or the teacher's) views--unless he already agrees with the conclusion, in which case no error of fact or analysis is too large to be forgiven.

It's basically the American trial system taken into the realm of knowledge, which is a wildly simple-minded view. Scary, in fact. And very unhealthy.

(on edit: in response to #5, I'd add that I don't find that corporate or non-corporate viewpoint makes a difference. It's not the point of view that's at issue, it's that the kids, present and former, weren't taught that critical thinking isn't a weapon, but a tool.)
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
7. Pretty much.
Edited on Sat Jun-04-05 01:10 PM by silverweb
When people refute facts with lies, preferring the lies because they reinforce an existing position...

When people attack the messenger to discredit the message, without even examining the message...

When "information" that is disseminated is just as likely to be fabricated from deliberate lies as it is to be pure imagination...

When people believe they can bludgeon others into accepting their point of view out of fear or exhaustion, not because they are convinced of its truth or merits...

Then, yes, I'd say persuasion is pretty much hanging on by a mere thread or two.

The wondrous fact that BushCo's numbers have dropped as low as they have offers some hope that not everyone has been deceived by the above corpo-theo-reTHUG tactics -- and the arts of persuasion and critical thinking are not entirely dead.

On edit: Thanks, Igil, for the reminder to mention the importance of critical thinking. :)
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. Yes.
They identify themselves as possessors of moral absolutes and everyone else as possessors of moral relativisms.

Interpretation: they aren't going to hear a word you say.
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Logansquare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-04-05 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
9. Once again, the press frames this as a "liberals do it too" problem
As if a teaspoon of Democratic talking points equals a kilo of GOP hate-filled demagoguery. And they wonder why Americans aren't reading newspapers any more.
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