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Daveparts still Donating Member (614 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 10:25 AM
Original message
The Future's so Bright, I've Got to Wear Lead
The Future's so Bright, I've Got to Wear Lead
By David Glenn Cox

The third Bush/McCain term courses on like a runaway, coal-fired steam train. Mr. Obama, CEO of Gopasskiss, Incorporated, formally known as the United States of America, has announced that Gopasskiss, formally USA, will offer up $8.3 billion in loan guarantees to build two new nuclear power plants in Georgia.

This was the centerpiece in John McCain’s energy strategy. McCain wanted to build 45 new nuclear plants. McCain claimed to be a supporter of the free marketplace, as does CEO Obama, so why is Gopasskiss subsidizing the free market nuclear power industry? Why at a time of massive budget deficit, when the United States Senate can only come up with $15 billion for the unemployed, can they so quickly come up with $8.3 billion for two small plants in Georgia?

In Norway they are using a different approach; plans were recently announced to build the world's largest wind turbine. The turbine will have a rotor diameter of 475 feet and produce ten megawatts of electricity, or enough for 2,000 homes. This will be a new generation turbine with reduced weight and fewer moving parts. The prototype will be built at a cost of $23 million and tested for two years before going into full production. So for the cost of Gopasskiss, Inc.’s nuclear monstrosity we could build 415 state-of-the-art wind turbines generating enough electricity for 830,000 homes. No nuclear waste problem, no terrorist security problem, no fears of meltdowns or nuclear contamination.

In Britain, business Secretary John Hutton announced in 2007 a plan by European energy leaders to dot the British Isles with over seven thousand wind turbines. Enough, Hutton says, to light every home in the UK with green electricity by 2020.

“Our traditional sources of North Sea energy – although still hugely important, are declining," Hutton said to a group of European energy industry leaders. The UK produced 1.87 million barrels of oil per day in 2005, mostly from offshore drilling; by 2009 that’s expected to fall to 1.38 million barrels per day. “It’s time we sourced more energy from our abundant natural resources – sea and wind," Hutton said.

Haven’t they read the memo from Gopasskiss? Nukes are the way to go, with lots of super expensive technology and government subsidies that guarantee profits a future so bright that you gotta wear lead!

In Europe a consortium of 12 large companies are working on the Desertec Industrial Initiative. Their goal is to build a massive solar power plant in the Sahara Desert. The amount of solar energy in the Sahara Desert is so large that a plant measuring 90,000 square kilometers could produce enough electricity for the entire world from a tiny speck in a desert that covers 9 million square miles.

Low-tech collectors would collect solar heat, which would be converted to steam to turn turbines to generate electricity. No atomic piles or nuclear regulators, no spent fuel rods or high tech security barriers. Heat makes steam, steam makes electricity. Desertec estimates that a 250 Mega-watt plant, with a salt storage capability allowing the plant to run for up to seven hours after sunset, will cost around $2 billion. It will, however, run almost forever and will never need fuel, as similar plants set up in the Mojave Desert during the Carter administration are still running with almost zero maintenance.

The tiny island of Samso in Denmark began 12 years ago investing in ten wind turbines at a cost of $4.4 million dollars each. The wind turbines belong to the islanders themselves and investors recouped their investment in only four years. Before the wind turbines Samso received regular deliveries of heating oil by ship, and cables brought coal-generated electricity from the mainland. The islanders began to use solar electricity and geothermal energy. They even make their own synthetic diesel oil from rapeseed found on the island to power their tractors. Within eight years the island was producing 40% more electricity than it used and has reduced its greenhouse gas emissions to virtually zero.

Paul Erik Wedelgaard was the guiding hand behind the Samso project. He was a man in his seventies, at the beginning, who believed, “We have to do something for the children.” He sold half of his own holdings, worth almost a million dollars, to be an early investor in wind turbine number six.

Soren Hermanson has continued the project. “Everyone can do what we are doing,” he says. “Everything has to belong to the people. Big companies are not permitted to own anything, which was a big selling point. You can’t do anything from the top to bottom; everything has to belong to the people. It has to become their project.” I don’t think that Gopasskiss, formally the USA, would much approve of this approach.

Hermanson explains, "The question was: How can we all continue living on Samso? In the year before, the slaughterhouse had closed down putting hundreds out of work. It was our Great Depression; the plan is better than the slaughterhouse." The community has taken their profits and built five more offshore generating plants and the proceeds nets the islanders roughly $4,000 per day, or three times their revenues from raising cows. Hermanson laughs, “I think the weather is always good, when the wind blows, the rotors turn. When it rains the feed for my cows grows and when the sun shines, I take my boat out for a spin.”

Japan has a plan for a string of geothermal plants to generate electricity. In Australia the plan is to build a 50-megawatt geothermal test plant producing enough electricity for 75,000 people to be followed up by a 500-megawatt plant which is expected to be on line by 2016. New geothermal plants are being built in Germany, El Salvador, the Philippines and Iceland. Geothermal is good for generating baseline electricity; unlike solar and wind it is dependable and constant.

Geothermal electricity construction costs are generally lower than building a nuclear plant. Capital costs for geothermal are $1,150 to $3,000 per kW vs. nuclear at $1,500 to $4,000 per kW. Geothermal also has lower operating and maintenance costs than nuclear plants. Geothermal costs .4 to 1.4 cents per kilowatt-hour versus 1.9 cents per kilowatt-hour for nuclear plants. Large tracts of land in the western United States are ideally situated to build geothermal plants, but Gopasskiss, Inc. says no. A Bush-era law passed in 2005 set aside $18 billion to aid the nuclear power industry, because in this case the free market needs help.

The promise of the new nuclear plants is the same promise that we’ve always been given: safer, cleaner and cheaper. It is the same promise we’ve heard so many times before, the unsinkable ship, the safety of Zeppelins and double-hulled oil tankers followed by the same explanations of a strange anomaly or an unexpected event. Stuck valves, broken pipes, and we have only sixty years' world experience in nuclear power. The margins of error are too thin and the price of failure is too high and the risks are too great to keep building nuclear Hindenburgs. Time marches on and it's time to look towards the future instead of repeating the same toxic monuments of failure from the past.

The answers are out there, and they are cheaper, they are cleaner, they are wiser and they are truly renewable. Gopasskiss, formally know as the USA, wants to build nukes because big business wants to build nukes and that’s all that matters to them. They want to spend your $18 billion because it’s burning a hole in their pocket. They want you to forget Three Mile Island and Chernobyl because there are big bucks to be made in nuclear energy, subsidized by your tax dollars. When, in fact, for the economy it offers us nothing. A future so bright you've got to wear lead.

Brought to by the Bush/McCain reelection committee, Barack Obama, chairman.
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Laura902 Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. Nuclear power is the smart solution to transition this country to renewable energy
it is not realistic to believe we can keep going on coal which takes train-loads to fuel a city (compared to a small amount of uranium) and produces huge amounts of CO2. Chernobyl happened because of extremely outdated equipment for that time, no such thing has happened in the last few years with many nuclear reactors operating in this country. Solar and wind power and other renew-ables cannot power this country and will not be able to for a long time.
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Daveparts still Donating Member (614 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Yes our Technology
is so much better than other peoples technology "It can't happen here" until it does. You only get to be wrong once. It is a 1950's pipe dream it is a filthy and dangerous technology and still, we have no place to put the waste 50 years on.
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Laura902 Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Chernobyls equipment was outdated for the time, that is a fact n/t
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Zoeisright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Oh, do some research.
I'm sick and tired of people espousing nuclear energy on this board. It is expensive, incredibly subsidized by taxpayers, dirty, and inefficient. And we STILL have no way of dealing with the waste.

All we need is ONE mistake and thousands, if not millions, will be dead. Grow up.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. It'll take 7 years to put a Nuke plant online
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. No, nuke power is expensive and dirty. Efficiency, wind and solar are the best investments.
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. Laura902
Laura902

Not correct, by the standard of 1986 when Chernobyl was known for more than beeing a sleeping city in Ukraine the reactor was fairy new, by all means a modern, and rather secure reactor type.. Even the West had given the construction of the reactor its price becouse the reactor was a rather safe design opposite to other design in the russian arsenal at the time.

In fact the Reactor nr 4, who was the reactor who blow up was in maintance mode, and was on a verry low power output compared to what it was on other days when the reactor was at full power.. It was both a tecnical shortcomming, who was known but who the designers of reactors never belived to be a danger, becouse it was a reactor who had more than one safeguard against shortfall of water.. In fact the reactor that had the accident had more than 3 different safeguard against loss of cooling water, but for some reason who never was explained when the shortfall did happend, it was a catastropic loss of water, becouse the pipes who was used to fill the water into the reactor for some reason broke.. It was a "design flaw" who was really minor, and at the time no one, not even western construction companies was thinging that it was a danger to anyone, becose the pipes really had a minor role in the sirculation of water to the reactor - at full power that is..

Chernobyl was an accidence who could and should have been aborted by by some flaw, and most of all, human error, the reactor was going "dry" and then the reactor was blowing, containing most of the area, and containing most of Europe as a result. The scare about fall out from Chernobyl was really scary long after it happend..

Many design difference and new safeguards was the result of Chernobyl. Pluss the nuclear division got a shoot they never really recovered from... Even tho the reactors of today is fare more safe than most eastern block reactors was in 1986, it is still some really nasty design flaws going on in most reactors today... And as the age of the reactors incrases, the design flaws wil be more and more transparent, becouse in most cases the reactors have a finit production time.. And a lot of the reactors is close to that finit time... Some of the oldest reactors, still in opperation is more than 50 year old now.. Chernobyl was 8 year when nr 4 blow up.. So we have A lot of potential Chernobyls out there both in the east and in the west..

Diclotican
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. great talking points. Given the time, complexity, and cost overruns to build nukes...
we could build a hell of a lot of low tech wind turbines and solar plants for that price. Or better yet, put solar panels on the roof of every new building.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
2. Those nuclear power plants will never be built

It's another quick way for the wealthy owners to get more of our tax money. Meanwhile, we devolve further into third world poverty.

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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
3. excellent article-- recommended!
Thank you for posting it.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. K&R.
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Laura902 Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. Nuclear power is the only real option other than coal
What are the Benefits of Nuclear Power?




Nuclear power has many benefits over its competitors, including oil, coal, wind, hydroelectric, and near-term solar power. Nuclear power is opposed by those with good intentions but a poor understanding of the risks and benefits of modern nuclear plants relative to the alternatives, and how safety has improved over time. Nuclear power is looked upon suspiciously because its association with the nuclear bomb as well as the emotional salience of "radioactive waste."

A single kilogram of uranium can produce more energy than 200 barrels of oil, and uranium is about as common as tin. Thorium, three times more abundant than uranium, can also be converted into uranium-233 (which is too unstable to be used for bombs) and broken down for similar quantities of nuclear energy. So why the holdup for constructing new nuclear power plants? Well, first, they are relatively expensive to build, although cheap to operate. The lower initial cost of gas, oil, and coal plants has thus made them more economical in the last few decades, but with the rising cost of fossil fuels, that is changing. Global warming is another concern.
The second reason more nuclear plants have not been constructed is safety fears primarily based on the Chernobyl accident, which killed 30 people. By comparison, per terawatt of energy produced, hydroelectric power kills 885, coal kills 342, natural gas kills 85, but nuclear kills only 8. Fossil fuel pollution kills over 10,000 in the United States per year due to respiratory problems. But nuclear plants are emissions-free, and 95% of spent fuel can be reprocessed, producing very little waste, which can be adequately contained at reasonable cost.
The Chernobyl accident was caused by an uncontrollable fire started due to a poor safety infrastructure. Generation III nuclear reactors, built starting in 1996, have much better safety measures, taking into account the high standards placed on nuclear safety in the aftermath of Chernobyl. Some of the Generation IV reactors currently being designed, likely to be introduced in the 2020s, are made to be inherently meltdown-proof. This is because their cores are designed to be liquid - a liquid can't further "melt down."
Nuclear provides much more energy than the alternatives for a reason related to the fundamental laws of nature. In nature, there are four fundamental forces: the strong nuclear force, which holds atomic nuclei together; the weak nuclear force, which mediates radiation; the electromagnetic force, and gravity. The strong nuclear force, liberated by nuclear reactions, is a hundred times stronger than the electromagnetic force, which is liberated by conventional chemical reactions.
As soon as we recognize the long-term nature of nuclear power makes it economically attractive, and its zero-emissions nature is ideal for combating pollution and global warming, the frequent construction of nuclear power plants is likely to resume. Many leading politicians are already in favor of nuclear power, even if they don't always broadcast it.
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Daveparts still Donating Member (614 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Nuclear Energy
Is a highly subsidized dirty industry. You left off the urainium mining, left off the cost of disposing of the waste. You claim that only 30 people were killed at Chernobyl when the deaths are still occuring and an area the size of Texas was contaminated virtually forever. You explain that away with the tired saw of their technology wasn't as good as ours, really

Oh the new reactors are safer, excuse me but that's what they always say.
The Titanic was unsinkable and oil tankers don't spill. It's called Murphy's law.

I'm familar with what happened at Three Mile Island and at Brown's Ferry in Alabama. It was the people who made mistakes or have they invented better people too?

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Laura902 Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Any you honestly think that coal doesn't require even more
digging into the ground, polluting ground water and the air with enormous amounts of green-house gases? Nuclear power can help this nation, only a small amount of uranium can power the reactor for a long time. Solar and wind power as of now have a low energy return on investment, unlike nuclear, and cost far too much to rely on. You state that lives could potentially be lost with an increase in the amount of nuclear power plants but how many lives are lost in energy plants using coal or coal mining in comparison?

Injuries from coal transportation (such as at train crossing accidents) are estimated to cause 450 deaths and 6800 injuries per year. Transporting enough coal to supply just this one 500 MW plant requires 14,300 train cars. That's 40 cars of coal per day.


And that is just a fraction. Many more die due to respiratory illnesses, deaths in mining and on the job.
Solar and wind and other renewables simply cannot work right now, their too expensive and cannot supply large areas with energy. Nuclear, however, can do this. Nuclear can help the U.S decrease its dependence on fossil fuels and help make the transition into completely renewable sources of energy.
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Mopar151 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. How many "nukes" you been drinkin' with?
I've gotten pretty hammered with quite a few. All of 'em could make the All-American Drinkin' team. And the stories they tell would scare anyone but a paint huffer. The military trained (submarines) reactor techs I smoked a prodigious amount of dope with one evenin' wanted NOTHING to do with civilian reactors. A "burnout" (reached lifetime exposure limit) tech (who reads meters now) explained about "leapers" - the temporary workers that are brought in to do very short-term "hot" work "What a f'n joke! They go down to a bar to get em - you gotta get twice as many, cuz they're half in the bag, and they've got like 40 seconds to do their little piece of the job, so you got a line of fifty stewbums to do your critical work."
Yes, we need to go beyond coal - but not at the cost of nuclear. Especially with cut corners, shady deals, and exploitative management, and waste that will be "hot" for thousands of years.
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Diclotican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
24.  Mopar151
Mopar151

What if the industry had the same rules as the US navy have when it came to safty on their reactors?.. As I understand it the US Navy to this day have not had a single accident with the nuclear force. And they also have some STRICT rules when it came to the nuclear comparment...

Diclotican
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Mopar151 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. But I know a coupla guys
Who are working in the Rocky Flats plant cleanup. Those cute little magnetic-wheeled robots are made in a gararge in NH. I hear Hanford WA is BAD, and they hadda dig a hole 30 feet deep at Nuclear Metals in MA to take care of something that got in the ground...
I just don't beleive that the necessary degree of safety will ever be present in a project run by civilian contractors (I have in-laws in that business, and them boys just ain't right.), And where are the waste and dead reactor cores from the military going? Hanford? Yucca Mountain?
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. Coal is not the alternative to nucular power--this is a false argument.
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Tutankhamun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. Where does this "What are the Benefits of Nuclear Power?" essay come from?
It reads like PR from the nuclear power industry.
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Rapier09 Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
13. Obama merely did a very modest step
It is unlikely to harm any of us.

If it doesn't work out,his successor can decide to shut down the projects.

Just chill out y' all.
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silversol Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
14. K&R
Kick
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
15. K&R
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Mopar151 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
17. A little encouraging sign
Edited on Thu Feb-18-10 12:29 AM by Mopar151
We are gearing up to build lots of wind turbines - I've been admiring the specialised trailers, and found some pics - for a gearhead like me, these are encouraging.




special trailers for hauling tower sections, as well

Lots more cool pictures at: http://www.isttrailers.com/inaction.cfm
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Lost Jaguar Donating Member (193 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
21. Thanks Yet Again, My Friend
I shall save this to throw in the face of flat-earthers. But they won't listen. The big money in this country profits by pandering to idiots. And they will precipitate the end of (what passes for) civilization. We're all dead people walking, it seems. But some of us will at least die knowing we were right.
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Laura902 Donating Member (333 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
22. just because you people do not agree with me does not make my argument invalid
lets get something clear. I have stated my argument that coal power most of the U.S right now, solar and wind have far too low energy return on investments and are far too expensive. Nuclear would be a good transition and seriously help the U.S reduce it's emissions. Those of you who get angry when I state the facts need to cool off and think realistically about your own debate instead of undermining your own with accusations that happen to be mostly opinions-not facts.
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Daveparts still Donating Member (614 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Where will
we store the waste?

Is Three Mile Island an opinion?

Does private (Alabama Power) industry operate nuclear plants to military standards?

What happens in the event of an accident? Is sorry good enough?

What would have happened if the 9/11 hijackers crashed an airplane into the Indian River Nuclear plant?

Why are countries in the first world turning away from Nuclear power and third world countries adopting it. Are we like India and China now?
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Mopar151 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Well, bless your heart
I can assure you that none of the people I posted about are figments of my imagination. There is ample proof of the failings of civilian nukes in Vernon, VT at Vermont Yankee. The Millstone plants in CT and Seabrook Station in NH are economic albatrosses, crippling our whole region. Hanford, WA and Rocky Flats, CO have very well documented problems - hardly an "Opinion". There's stuff I know stuff about Nuclear Metals, EG&G, and others -I can't talk about because I signed non-disclosures.
You may not like what I say - but it's the TRUTH.
I would agree that coal has problems - big ones - but many of them are quite solvable. Fixing the damm railroads would be a good start!
And that whole thing about ROI on solar and wind - that's an opinion, and it's wrong. The one on Mt. Tom is projected to pay back in 7 years! The reasons Big Power does'nt like wind and solar has to do with customers having independence and options - that's an opinion, but I can likely find a utility executive fallin' off a barstool to back me up. Last I talked to him, he had gotten a whole layer (41 of 'em!)of useless middle managers sawed out of the utility co-op he works for. Resemble anyone you know?
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