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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 08:14 PM
Original message
Some Questions: Privacy vs. Freedom of Information
Please don't misinterpret these questions.

I believe in the idea that information wants to be free. That free exchange and availability of information are the last defense of democracy in the face of the growing power of oligarchy. That governments should be transparent and accountable to the people governed.

I believe in all of those things, and yes, if it was demanded, I would probably be willing to give my life for them.

But.

I am a private individual.

I like my privacy.

I've made a lot of choices to forego convenience, services, and even opportunities to save money, based on protecting my privacy.

I'm not a government official.

My business does no work for the government.

I believe that I should be allowed to keep my privacy.

But.

Some of the organizations my business does work for receive government money.

I vote, I pay taxes, I participate in the process of self-government (what's left of it) of our democratic republic. What I do affects my neighbors, my community, my state.

What privacy am I entitled to, here on the Internet?

Who will protect it?

If I do something online that pisses off someone: My government, a private citizen who disagrees with me, a corporation or business, a charity that helps people, a church or an advocacy group, am I entitled to protection from vengeful acts on the part of those whom I piss off? What if what I do is legal but ethically dicey? What if what I do is illegal but morally and ethically defensible?

What about predators who see the Internet as one vast carny ground full of marks to fleece and targets to victimize? To what extent are we willing to provide protection from them? What if the Internet mechanisms required to protect me from them, also protect people who are ethically and morally NOT entitled to privacy because they are public servants acting on behalf of the community with the tax dollars of citizens?

How about those who might not be predators but who are, frankly, juvenile and malicious punks who just like to fuck with peoples' heads to show how uber-kewl and ultraleet they really are? There is an almost invisibly fine line, sometimes, between the ethical hacker pursuing legitimate freedom of information goals and the snotty cracker brats just trying to one-up each other in shit-stirring.

I've been amused and amazed by the escalating cyberwar between the Information Freedom Fighters and the various outraged institutions writhing in embarrassment from the stripping away of their privacy. Frankly, I place those institutions well over on the side of the line where they are not ENTITLED to any privacy other than that required to protect the lives of those in military and intelligence services.

But.

Will the battleground shift?

I think it will. I think it will shift in the direction of the broad and murky no-man's-land that separates those clearly not entitled to privacy from those clearly entitled to privacy.

I think we need to start talking about it in these terms, without assuming that because someone expresses concern about either side of the equation, legitimate privacy vs. legitimate freedom of information, they are necessarily a troll with a malicious agenda. There will be plenty of those, I'm sure. But this is a discussion too important to be derailed or avoided because of such unpleasantness.

I think there is no question but that, having had their ragged, shit-stained undies pulled off and waved around in public, governments are going to be trying to take control of the Tubes.

I think there is no question but that, in order to employ the tactics they know work best: MAKE THEM AFRAID!! VERY AFRAID!!! Those same governments are going to bring up the crackers and the predators and make out about how they are just trying to PROTECT us, don't you know....

I think there is no question but that, when they employ this obvious bait-and-switch, those who believe that information wants to be free will fight back, probably quite effectively.

I worry that in that fight, the losers will be ordinary people who value their privacy. As well as all of us who should be able to keep a beady eye on what our greedy, corrupt, and morally bankrupt public "servants" are up to.

Is there a way to have our cake and eat it too?

speculatively,
Bright
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. Perhaps we could encrypt various portions of the web to keep
big brother on his toes... and any government that engages in activities that violate the Geneva convention and other INTERNATIONAL LAWS can cry a river, privacy is for institutions that abide by the law, those that don't need to be stripped naked in the public square. Sunshine is the best disinfectant for criminality in high places.
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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Can you say more about how that would deal with the issue of...
...privacy on the Internet for ordinary people, and protection from predators, versus transparency for governments, public institutions, big businesses and others who should be scrutinized and subjected to sunshine?

Speaking as a non-geek, I'm not sure what having parts of the web encrypted would entail for me as an ordinary citizen.

curiously,
Bright
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. There IS NO privacy on the internet
unless you provide your own...

But it's not a trivial thing to do...

http://www.gnupg.org/
http://www.osalt.com/pgp-desktop
http://infosecpals.com/blog/2008/open-source-alternatives-to-pgp-desktopsda


I assume that everything on the net is capable of being broadcast widely...

And keep my heart of hearts to myself...
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TygrBright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I agree-- up to a point.
And I use a variety of strategies to protect my privacy to the degree I feel essential.

And, frankly, at some point I think privacy on the Internet is futile. However, with the ocean of data that is the Internet so vast already, and growing exponentially, most data (my favorite color, the name of the restaurant my friends and I went out to last Saturday, etc.) is effectively invisible just because of the high signal-to-noise ratio.

I also have no objection to certain legitimate uses of my personal data: my ISP knows things about me, the host for my business website knows things about me, a couple of places I engage in online financial transactions know things about me and those are all legitimate. And I have an acceptable level of confidence in their commitment to safeguarding my data.

All of that said, while the Internet is an almost inconceivably vast ocean of data and the tiny motes that represent information about me are infinitesmal in comparison, there are plenty of ways for people who decide that I am a target to identify those motes and separate them from the background noise and exploit them. I remain anonymous only so long as no one makes me a target.

It is the tools that may or may not be employed, and who may employ them, once an entity has been identified as a target that are the question needing discussion.

thoughtfully,
Bright
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. It is true that thanks to the humongous noise level
one is fairly safe...

Unless one gains their notice...

Then all bets are off...
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-09-10 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Uh... yeah, that was a mixed bag. On the one hand I don't respect
the idea that every phone conversation, every fax, every email and so forth needs to be filtered and scrutinized by big brother. I don't think that is "safe". Having programs that encrypt much of what travels on the net would put an end to that snooping.

As far as transparency goes insomuch as the change we were promised, Wikileaks has pushed transparency to the limit for better or for worse. There is a certain element in this country that believes unlawful acts perpetrated by their government are acts condoned by all. This puts a burr under their collective saddle.

I feel that homeland security has been corrupted just like anything else where unlimited power is released to achieve a fleeting sense of xyz. The groping ain't gonna do it I'm afraid.

Security will be attained when justice is applied universally and that is never going to happen. There will always be those in power who consider themselves above the law, (last regime) and we will always be dealing with the fallout created by them.

It's early and I probably aint' making much sense, just some random thoughts strange as they may be.
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davidthegnome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. You raise some interesting
questions. Some I haven't really thought much about. You are right that the line must be drawn somewhere - I'm certainly not well versed in methods of protecting information online - which would bother me more if I had a bank account or debit or credit card to worry about, or any money, hmm.

I'm feeling... rather inspired, however, by Assange and the internet freedom fighters. It has been a long time since I felt anything like this tingle of hope and excitement... of, anticipation. What will happen next? No one can really say. I hope your private information will be protected. Surely there are ways to secure it, but I know very little about them. I haven't got much to lose personally, but I realize that others do and yours is a valid concern.
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WHEN CRABS ROAR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. Under our form of government, we the people are asked to be
informed as to what is happening all around us so we can make decisions based on correct facts, in fact we have the right to know, it's called freedom of the press, freedom to speak out, freedom to assemble. Yes there are predators out there and they have been there for ages, nothing new, just different times, different means. About privacy on the Internet I'm not so sure how to handle it, but I know in my work I was always ethical and didn't say anything that I didn't want repeated.
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pmorlan1 Donating Member (763 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-10 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
7. Great post
Great post. I hope I'm understanding you. If not, let me know.

I agree the government WILL use Wikileaks as an excuse to do what they were planning to do all along. They may also employ the tactics you mentioned (crackers and predators). That's why it's so important for us not to let them divide and conquer. If we give up the fight because we are afraid of what they will do then we lose the fight before it's even begun and then we all lose, including those of us who value our privacy. Forewarned is forearmed. Maybe we'll form posse's to go after the crackers and predators that they might unleash to scare us. Hey, we might even have some entrepreneurs who will set up shop as cyber guns for hire to go after your online attackers or Sam Spade types who will track them down and expose them. I think there is a way to have our cake and eat it too but only if we all pull together and get CREATIVE.
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